[JCC]

Many an audiophile constantly changes equipment, and tosses recording after recording in search of lifelike sound. This is analogous to a bird constantly flying against the wires of a cage, but never getting out. Many audiophiles are in fact captives to their own room, and in fact can bounce off the walls and change equipment without obtaining the desired results.

After I finished my installation of the 8th Nerve Adapt response controllers, I immediately played the Stereophile Recording “Rendezvous” by the Jerome Harris Quintet. This recording has been widely acclaimed as one of the best, and I always thought that it had the best cymbal recording that I had heard. Furthermore, I had been listening to it just prior to the installation. The opening cut is called “Decision Point,” which starts out with an impressive display of cymbals (Billy Drummond on his '50s-vintage Gretsch drumkit and K. Zildjian cymbals). Playing it again, I was amazed – It sounded like three different cymbals one on the right, one somewhat centered and one on the left. I had never heard that before.

Now I know that you thinking that cymbals are from a single point, however, the following quote from Stereophile and John Atkinson regarding the Rendezvous recording session clarifies the observation:

“I had to think about the drums. Multimiked drums are often spread from far stage left to far stage right, which tends to make them sound too big compared with the sizes of the other instruments. But that is exactly where I ended up placing them on Rendezvous. Billy Drummond uses his kit not only to lay down basic rhythms, but also to take the role of a melodic instrument. Narrowing the width of the drums restricted the play between his collection of very different-sounding cymbals. Letting the drums occupy the full stage width allowed them to define the aural background against which the horns and vibes make their musical statements.“

The room distortion previous to the 8th Nerve installation had prevented my hearing the three different cymbals. Anyway, it continued to get better as I listened. Everything was clearer, and room induced harshness was gone. The sound stage and imaging were dramatically improved, and sound was still very lively.

Track 3 is Duke Ellington’s “The Mooche” which former sounded harsh and I didn’t like it. All of a sudden the sound has transformed. You can hear the timbre from the different tensions on the drums, and Art Baron’s trombone has that blatting brassy sound, that is so hard to reproduce. All of sudden this this became one great recording, at least since the 8th Nerve installation.

At an event at another audiophiles home, a group of us were listening to Rendezvous and trying to judge the soundstage, and we were fooled. As I have learned from the 8th Nerve installation that you might be fooling yourself if you haven’t treated your room.

The results from the 8th Nerve installation are absolutely amazing. The sound in my system has dramatically improved, without an electronics or speaker change, and this is a relatively inexpensive transformation.  Analogous to a bird flailing against the wires of a cage, I now see that many an audiophile futilely changes equipment, and dismisses recording after recording in search of the perfect sound, never realizing that they are prisoners to their own room and it’s natural distortion. Swapping out equipment might promote an endless delusion of improvement, because in many cases (maybe most) room distortion is a serious problem. Suffice it to say, that I unequivocally can recommend this product. Buy it and you too will be amazed at what was missing.

img]http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=5133[/img]

[zybar]

Well said.

Now if you want to take it to another level, go with room correction (such as a TacT preamp).

Room treatments can only do so much.  The TacT + room treatments + proper speaker and listener placement is the path to audio nirvana.

George

[JCC]

Zybar,

I appreciate your advice, and you are correct about speaker placement, and I did some correction using the advice in the 6 Moons review.

The 8th Nerve treatment works well down to about 100 HZ, and you are correct that active equalization might help in the extreme lower base. I'll probably get out my measuring equipment and attempt to graph the response.

As you can see, the shape of the room is unusual, but it make a great sound room, and the acoustics are now greatly improved.

[Rob Babcock]

Digital room correction isn't "there" yet for most of us.  By that I mean it's not practical for everyone.  Too expensive for some, not flexible enough for others (eg how much would it cost for me to do it with 5 channels and two subs?  $10k?  $20k?  And then only for RBCD sources- could I do it with DVD-A/SACD in digital domain?).

Don't get me wrong- I'm excited.  But I'm frustrated by the cost and limited amount of viable options.

At any rate, I doubt it will ever replace room treatments.  That's like using two sticks of Right Guard when you could shower first and use two swabs!   I realize you didn't claim it would replace treatments, just thought I'd toss that out there.

[lcrim]

After reading the 6 moons review of the Eigth Nerve room treatment products I was very interested and made the small investment in this product.  The effect was on the order of replacing most of the major components in the system.  For roughly $250 I had a huge improvement in almost every area.  It also clarified for me the character of that particular system which includes a "digital" amplifier.  
I recently attended some live concerts and was struck by how flat and attenuated those particular concerts sounded in comparison.  No doubt the acoustics  in those halls (a church and an old mill) had a huge effect but live music didn't sound as good as recorded.  Room acoustics plays an enormous role in the quality of the sound we hear.
The implementation of digital room correction is a significant expense.  It also requires the digitization of all source material.  It is difficult for me personally to justify the expense and complexity involved in the process of digital room correction.   Done properly, and I have researched this, you really need a separate amp for each speaker driver and a "modeling " program plus multiple channels of digital to analog conversion.
Had I  money to spend right now, I would probably put it into a plasma TV or a high end DAC and keep the acoustic treatments from Eighth Nerve.  Everybodies' budget has a limit and the concept of digital room correction seems somewhat lower on the list of toys that I want.  Fascinating but not near the top of the list.

[ctviggen]

My main problem with the TACT is that it's $5,400.  Another problem for me is integration into my system.  I'd like to be able to use the two Largers (along with an SV sub) for movies and to supplement bass for my RM40s.  Right now, I can do that.  If I run with the TACT, using the Largers for moview will be harder to do, though possible (though that possibility includes yet more interconnects).

Thus, for me, the TACT is a bit too far out of my price range.

[jermmd]

for me, the TACT is a bit too far out of my price range.

That's my problem.  I keep expecting this new technology to get cheaper and to get copied/improved upon by other manufacturers.  There's not enough competition (or possibly interest) yet.  At some point, I'll bite the bullet and buy it.  I'm just not ready yet.

Joe M.

[jermmd]

Now back to the topic at hand...

Are these the new 8th nerve products that we've been waiting for?  I plan on purchasing them and it's nice to hear the positive reviews.

[JCC]

I built a new room, and wanted the new product. I am ecstatic with the results.

[ctviggen]

Also, where is the price list for the new stuff?

[8thnerve]

Also, where is the price list for the new stuff?

The new products are available, but as of now are not "officially" released.  Why?  Well the website is not complete yet, so when it is, the product will be officially released.  The pricing has been mentioned in the Eighth Nerve forum, but I will repeat it here.  The Adapt Rectangle sells for $150 per panel, and the Adapt Triangle sells for $100 per panel.  There are also some pictures in the Eighth Nerve forum.

In regards to digital room correction, I believe that it is only particularly effective for your low frequency room modes.  The Adapt line is essentially analog room correction, except that it works for the entire room and not just one spot in the room.  And because it is reducing distortion at the source, it is not compensating for errors, it is actually eliminating them.  I would recommend the Adapt products and a Rives Audio PARC if you have severe geometry based room modes.  There is no substitute for the Adapt products however, as there is no other solution on the market right now that can produce such a reduction in acoustic distortion.

If you are sold on digital room correction however, make sure you take the measurements AFTER the room treatment is in place.  You may find your A/B tests with the correction filter on and off to be quite suprising at that point.

Please feel free to inquire about recommendations using the new products but please be patient.  We are quite busy with current Adapt orders even though they are not technically released, so expect a litle time between responses.  We are doing everything we can to be as prompt as possible.

Best Regards,

Nathan Loyer
Eighth Nerve

[hometheaterdoc]

Originally posted by Rob BabcockDigital room correction isn't "there" yet for most of us. By that I mean it's not practical for everyone. Too expensive for some, not flexible enough for others (eg how much would it cost for me to do it with 5 channels and two subs? $10k? $20k? And then only for RBCD sources- could I do it with DVD-A/SACD in digital domain?).

Don't get me wrong- I'm excited. But I'm frustrated by the cost and limited amount of viable options.

The Tact TCS MKII is MSRP $9900.00.  There is an additional add on box that you can use to feed analog 5.1 SACD and DVD-A to the TCS.  The TCS MKII does Dolby Digital and DTS decoding, and also comes with Dolby Pro Logic II for creating multi-channel mixes out of two channel sources.  Considering the cost of Lexicon, Halcro, etc., the Tact is a steal because of the room correction capabilities.  For that $10K you get the ability to do 7.3 channels (i.e. two subs for the main left and right and a LFE), or any kind of variant you can think of for 10 channels.  You get individual channel control.  You can set a custom room correction curve for each individual channel, do overall lip synch delay, get complete phase alignment and time alignment for ALL channels, and employ up to 10th order, 60dB per octace crossovers on all main channels.

As to being able to do DVD-A and SACD in the digital domain.... how many alternatives currently exist?  Denon does DVD-A over firewire to their receivers.  Pioneer does both formats via firewire to their receivers.  Is there a high end alternative?  While these models will do high rez in the digital domain, the sound quality hit they suffer compared to other high end choices makes it almost a mute point.  Comparing the Tact's sound capabilities to the receivers above is not a fair fight at all.  The fact that more options for hi rez in the digital domain don't exist is far more frustrating to me than not having 30 different room correction companies.

While Tact or Rives products are not cheap, and I wouldn't expect to see a $500 preamp from them any time soon, in the grand scheme of things, the performance they offer is worth the price of entry.

The ONLY negative that seems to exist for the Tact stuff is that some folks who are into vinyl don't seem to like the digitization of the signal.  If you don't have vinyl in your system, I honestly don't see the negative of the Tact or any other room correction device.  Honestly, what do each of us have in our systems.... we have CDPs, DVD players, cable boxes, game consoles, Tivos or video recording devices, and maybe a computer or two.  Some of us have vinyl, reel to reel, DAT, etc..  What in that mix of stuff can't be fed to the Tact stuff either via analog, or through a digital connection?

The Tact stuff is NOT a glorified equalizer.  It is NOT a preamp with a couple bands of parametric EQ.  The cost of producing the pieces is most definitely the case work and the coding effort of the filters, or IP in general.  The development costs to do this are not small.  Seeing something on the level of Tacts stuff implemented in a $300 receiver is going to be difficult, unless the chinese steal it and reverse engineer it.  But as more and more people get exposed to what correction can do for their systems, I think you will see more competition in this arena and the price, like it does with all things technology, will come down as time goes on.  The price of Tact stuff has gone down in recent years, not up.  

originally posted by lcrim
It is difficult for me personally to justify the expense and complexity involved in the process of digital room correction. Done properly, and I have researched this, you really need a separate amp for each speaker driver and a "modeling " program plus multiple channels of digital to analog conversion.

In order to implement basic room correction you do NOT need to have seperate amps for each speaker driver and throw away all your passive speaker crossover parts.  That is one extreme method of doing it.  It's not the only way to sonic bliss.  You can do it in stages or to varying degrees.

Originally posted by Rob Babcock
At any rate, I doubt it will ever replace room treatments. That's like using two sticks of Right Guard when you could shower first and use two swabs!  I realize you didn't claim it would replace treatments, just thought I'd toss that out there.

Two points:

1) The room correction stuff is not meant to replace room treatments per se.  Both room treatments and a room correction product are meant to work hand in hand.  Having a good room to start with will result in better performance with the room correction piece in place.  Alternatively, the room correction piece can only do so much in a sub standard room with no treatment at all.  It isn't the magic kool-aid that completely corrects everything.

2) However, after doing measurements in my rooms without any treatment and then with treatment (including Nathan products), I think the room correction piece has FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more improvement than the room treatments.  I haven't yet had the opportunity to try Nathan's new line of products.  I'm very interested in them and would love to use them in some of my rooms.  I think they are very attractive and the science behind them is sound.  But there is absolutely no way they are going to fix all the things that something like Tact's room correction can.  I'll be happy to setup a time and demonstrate a system with room treatment and no room correction versus a setup with room correction and no room treatment.  Anyone is welcome to attend.  Based on the experiences of customers thus far, I know which one you'll prefer.

There is no bigger impact on the sound of your system than the room you are in.  The improvements of room correction are NOT subtle.  I will never again have a system that does not employ room correction, just as I won't have a listening room without some form or room treatment.  But the absolute necessity is the room correction.  A lot of folks just don't believe or understand what is happening with these devices.  I encourage anyone who has the opportunity to seek out a dealer and have a listen.  You will be a convert  

I shudder to think of the thousands upon thousands of dollars I have wasted over the last decades on this hobby.  While it has been fun in some respects to take the journey, the relentless buy and try of equipment has left me weary and a LOT lighter in the pocketbook.

[ctviggen]

I assume the add on box costs money, or is it included in the $10k price?  The Lexicon 10B is about 10k, so that's not a bad price for room correction, relatively speaking.  Will it let you route the LFE signal to the r/l subs?  I have my LFE routed to three subs, the r/l subs and a dedicated LFE sub, wired out of phase with the r/l subs (temporarily -- one day, when I have time, I'll redo this).  

In real terms, though, that's still 10k.  I purchased a used Proceed AVP for around 2,500 way back when.  Now, the Proceed AVP IIs are about 2k.  I can afford 2k, but 10k (or more to get something to do DVDs) is a bit of a stretch.  As a former engineer who used to design/implement boxes to control radios, I know how hard and complex it is to do some of this stuff.  So, I realize why the room correction boxes are expensive.  Nonetheless, they're still out of the reach of most people.  Regardless of what they do for the sound, they're still very expensive.  A lot of people on here are like me -- we like to buy used and only buy new when we have to.  The cost of the 5/7channel TACT is more than the cost of my seven channels of amplification (Jeff Rowland and Bryston), my preamp (Proceed AVP), Ack Dack, and some ICs.  It's more than the cost of my RM40s and RM30C.  Put another way, for 10k, you can get a nice system, tons of room treatments, or upgrade a bazillion things in your current system, especially if you buy used.  

These things are what the are -- expensive but helpful products.

[zybar]

I assume the add on box costs money, or is it included in the $10k price?  The Lexicon 10B is about 10k, so that's not a bad price for room correction, relatively speaking.  Will it let you route the LFE signal to the r/l subs?  I have my LFE routed to three subs, the r/l subs and a dedicated LFE sub, wired out of phase with the r/l subs (temporarily -- one day, when I have time, I'll redo this).  

In real terms, though, that's still 10k.  I purchased a used Proceed AVP for around 2,500 way back when.  N ...

Bob,

Not saying the TacT gear is cheap, but don't confuse what the TacT does with the processing that the Lexicon or other home theater based pre/pro's are doing - they are nowhere near the same.

I wish everything was cheaper...but if you actually step back and look at the prices and put it in terms of the performance you are getting, it is actually a pretty good deal.

George

[JCC]

Obviously the TacT is a great product, but I wonder about after the fact correction. With room treatment such as 8th Nerve, you are removing the distortion elements, thereby avoiding distortion. With TacT you are correcting for distortion. What are the remaining distortion elements after correction?

Is it analogous to corrective feedback in an amplifier loop. In the case of the amplifier, time related distortion still exists. Does the same hold true for the TacT type correction?

[zybar]

Obviously the TacT is a great product, but I wonder about after the fact correction. With room treatment such as 8th Nerve, you are removing the distortion elements, thereby avoiding distortion. With TacT you are correcting for distortion. What are the remaining distortion elements after correction?

It's it is analogous to corrective feedback in an amplifier loop. In the case of the amplifier, time related distortion still exists. Does the same hold true for the TacT type correction?

I haven't heard the new 8th Nerve products yet, but I do use their old products + Real Traps.  If you have seen pictures of my room, it is heavily treated and I am a firm believer in acosutic room treatments.

Rather than have me get into the techncial details of what the TacT does and how it does it, I will simply link TacT's website:

http://www.tactlabs.com/

George

[Carlman]

Obviously the TacT is a great product, but I wonder about after the fact correction. With room treatment such as 8th Nerve, you are removing the distortion elements, thereby avoiding distortion. With TacT you are correcting for distortion. What are the remaining distortion elements after correction?

Is it analogous to corrective feedback in an amplifier loop. In the case of the amplifier, time related distortion still exists. Does the same hold true for the TacT type correction?

I've thought about this as well.  After hearing it in my room and over at Shane's... I have to think the phsyical room correction treatments are better once the room is loaded with sound.  The phsyical products, like 8th Nerve's are in place and actively correcting physical sound waves all the time.  

Another area where they help is that there is less to correct digitally.  So, your correction curve can be flatter and therefore leaving you more db to get your correction curve right.  (This is a hard point to explain without showing the software.)

I agree they work hand in hand but I don't know for sure that one is way more effective than the other.  They are both effective at what they do.  Your room anomolies will determine which has more effectiveness.

-C

[csero]

I will never again have a system that does not employ room correction, just as I won't have a listening room without some form or room treatment. But the absolute necessity is the room correction. A lot of folks just don't believe or understand what is happening with these devices. I encourage anyone who has the opportunity to seek out a dealer and have a listen. You will be a convert ...

I WAS!!! a big advocate of room correction, but I've realized a couple of things since then, which changed my opinion from absolute necessary to better to avoid. (Speaker correction is still useful)

Room treatment is also controversial for me (used alone without ambience recreation) because it will make the ambient sound of the listening room even more unnatural, compared to any live event.

[JCC]

CSERO wrote:

Room treatment is also controversial for me (used alone without ambience recreation) because it will make the ambient sound of the listening room even more unnatural, compared to any live event.

Interestingly enough, a friend told me that room treatment would deaden the room. While this is true for some products, this is not the case with 8th Nerve approach, because it is reflective in the front and absorptive in the back. In fact natural ambience and room liveliness is improved.

You now have all of the liveliness, with a lot of distortion removed. Ambience is, in fact, improved.

[csero]

You now have all of the liveliness, with a lot of distortion removed. Ambience is, in fact, improved.

Let me not start on this...