[Rclark]

 Considering my first audiophile build is a two channel system, I'd say not. In fact, my thought on when I get around to putting together the HT system is to not spend a lot or worry too much over it.

 Two channel rules.

[Nick77]

I had the HT epiphany as well, started with HT equipment and did much more listening to music instead. I have slowly upgraded equipment focused on 2 channel listening primarily. When you put together a resolving system suddenly recording quality becomes an issue.

My big concern is the audio formats focusing on portable devices only. Every new piece of music i buy is a total crapshoot on recording quality. I sure would like to see a resurgence of audiophile recordings. If studio music is recorded on 24 track devices why cant we buy high quality cd's?

I would think the death of 2 channel would be lack of decent recorded material.

[S Clark]

...I sure would like to see a resurgence of audiophile recordings. If studio music is recorded on 24 track devices why cant we buy high quality cd's?

I would think the death of 2 channel would be lack of decent recorded material.

There is plenty of high quality material! It's just going to cost either time or money.  If you haunt the local thrift shops and record stores, you will eventually pick up a decent amount of high quality vinyl-Mercury, EMI, London.  Or spend a small fortune on Hi Rez downloads.  Sometimes you can find high quality for cheap- the Mercury Living Presence Box Set of cds, 51 for $103.     
Scott

[Nick77]

      There is plenty of high quality material! It's just going to cost either time or money.                                         

Right, i should have added affordable. I love picking up like new used CD's for several bucks. Its a lot easier to swallow a poor recording when the investment is small. 

[Phil A]

I don't think there is a doubt that it is one the beginning phases of life support at the B&M retailer.  There is a good chunk of high end dealers that have gone out of business in the last decade.  Many who survived have expanded into things like HT and custom installation as there is more of a market for it with mainstream consumers.  I don't believe that the overall 2-channel market has changed much though.  Audiophiles are not and never were the majority of people who bought audio electronics.  The 2-channel market has modified with the growth of direct to customer companies like Salk.  Even those supporting traditional retailers have moved some of their business to mail order places (i.e. Audio Advisor, Crutchfield, etc.) to adapt to the times.

It does make it hard for the customer (at least I feel that way).  With more limited dealers and things they carry, on some purchases I did not consider certain things that had I heard, I might have bought differently.  In the end, I think it hurts traditional dealers) at least it has with me.  I've kind of moved away from buying most things from that avenue.  My last major purchases were an amp and a preamp and it was not through a dealer chain.

[woodsyi]

2 Channel is dead.  You must buy speakers in the increment of 5.1 or 7.1.  Rear and surrounds are just as important as LCR and you must go full range on all of them, e.g. buying a pair of Sound Scape speakers is wrong -- you must by at least 5.  The subtle ques in the rear channels in the very few good multichannel music out there can only be expressed fully by full range speakers.  Go for 5 or 7; not just 2. 

[jsalk]

Phil A -

Your comments about many B&M retailers being on life support are interesting.

When we first began building speakers, we did not have the capability to build that many pairs and were able to sell as many as we could produce.  So there was no point in exploring sales through a dealer network.  What's more, we realized that we could sell speakers at 1/2 the price by avoiding dealer markups and other expenses related to selling through dealers.  We felt that this increased affordability presented the potential of providing better quality sound to more and more people.

I recall, at that time though, people would post comments like, "Why would I purchase from them?  They don't even have dealers.  How credible can they be?"  They would even refer to companies selling direct as "scam artists."  But we stuck with the direct sales model anyway as we thought it was the direction things would be heading in the future.  And we were right.

At a recent audio show, I was approached by a large, very well respected amp manufacturer who had been around for at least the last 40 years.  He spent about 20 minutes grilling me as to how to get started in the direct sales mode.  He was crying about how many of his dealers were going out of business and how that impacted his sales volume.  But he was stuck in that mode because he couldn't compete with the limited number of dealers he had left.  And he didn't feel confident that he could ramp up direct sales fast enough to allow him to dispense with the remaining dealers he had.  He was basically stuck.

Now, consumers seem to be more and more comfortable purchasing direct from a manufacturer.  Sure, they would love the opportunity to visit a dealer and hear the speakers first.  But in many areas of the country, there simply aren't any dealers left.  So even if we did sell through dealers, in many areas visiting a dealer would still not be an option.

But the lack of dealers does not mean 2-channel audio is dead...far from it.  Each time we attend an audio show, we see a number of new audio companies.  And many of them are only selling gear for 2-channel systems.  Obviously, they couldn't survive unless someone was purchasing their products.

In the 70's and 80's, stereo stores were everywhere.  But as their customers got married, had children and carried on with their life, audio took a back seat to other life demands.  So slowly but surely many, if not most, of those dealers folded.

Now, many of those same customers are returning to a hobby they enjoyed in their younger years.  And many new consumers are being introduced to high quality 2-channel reproduction for the first time.  Sure, 2-channel as a percentage of the overall market may be dwarfed by home theater.  In a similar vein, CD sales will probably never be surpassed by vinyl sales even though vinyl is currently the fastest growing segment of the music business.  But we are seeing a resurgence in 2-channel interest (and vinyl).  Its just that dealers becoming a less and less important part of the equation. 

Times change.

- Jim

[grantc79]

In a similar vein, CD sales will probably never be surpassed by vinyl sales even though vinyl is currently the fastest growing segment of the music business. 
- Jim

Ask yourself this though.

Is vinyl the fastest growing or is it simply that CD sales are flat line dead due to Itunes and other avenues of downloadable music?

Basically is vinyl growing or is it that cd's are shrinking so fast that vinyl is taking a larger part of a market but not really a lot more VOLUME.

If I had to guess it would be a combination of the two.

[adydula]

Most of the local audio stores are pretty well gone in our area, however a few still exist they have added a large home theater part and home installation in high end homes...along with house automation, wiring and control to survive and these stores are doing very well. They still have a large dedicated low to high end 2 ch audio part as well.

Being an audiophile the one thing that is very important to me is...the source of material and its quality etc...and Itunes or any other lossy format no matter how convient is of no interst to me at all. I have a car radio for that! (smile)...I stayed away from all computer music until FLACs came about and my interest in 2 ch audio in FLAC format got me hooked into the computer side for convience and fast access...

When you explain this to the Itune crowd they look at me like I am nuts...but some really think about the quality vs the convience ...and  now-a-days you can have both...

But if the quality is compromised in any way, count me out.

Even if 2 ch or vinyl is only a very small percentage of the overall...its not going to take away from what 2 ch has become over time....and will continue to be..

Now where is my 8 track tape?

All the best
Alex

[jsalk]

Ask yourself this though.

Is vinyl the fastest growing or is it simply that CD sales are flat line dead due to Itunes and other avenues of downloadable music?

Basically is vinyl growing or is it that cd's are shrinking so fast that vinyl is taking a larger part of a market but not really a lot more VOLUME.

If I had to guess it would be a combination of the two.

Actually, vinyl sales are growing incredibly fast, percentage-wise (about 40% last year).  But this is primarily due to the fact that you are starting from such a small initial customer base.  So we are not talking about large numbers when compared to CD sales.  CD sales, on the other hand, have been on a downward trend for years now.  And yet, a single country artist can still sell more CD's in one year than the annual total of ALL vinyl sales. 

Vinyl sales are rising because more and more people are getting into vinyl playback.  And record companies are backing this trend because it is more difficult to pirate vinyl. 

I don't think the rise of vinyl is at all related to the popularity of CD's or MP3's. Vinyl is a unique market segment.

- Jim

[simoon]

Here is what I've experienced.

I live with my girlfriend who has 3 children. They are obviously part of the MP3 generation.

The oldest is in school to be an electronic music producer/creator. After years of listening to nothing but MP3, he is enthralled by the sound of a great 2CH system. On a somewhat related note, he has fallen in love with vintage analog synths as opposed to digital synths.

Her 2 younger ones seem completely uninterested in listening to any of their own music on their iPods through my 2CH system, but quite a few of their friends are very interested in the system and are more than impressed with the quality. They are unable to put it into words, but they are aware that they are missing something listening to their iPods.

On the subject of high end shops that specialize in 2CH, it is sad to see so many of them close. I believe that the high end shows are taking the place of high end shops. Many people seem to be doing their shopping at the shows.

[audiotom]

I mean no offense but this is what segment of the market is dying basically.

Allow me to share a story with you that might hit close to home Audiotom.....

Alterman audio located right around the corner from both of us just went out of business not long ago. They went out of business due to an antiquated way of thinking about audio. Audio Resource had the same thing happen not long ago. Wilson audio still exists but I'm not sure how and they are losing money hand over fist.

The reason that is is because the owners/employees of those places do not understand how the delivery of not just music but sound has changed and how it will continue to change.

You cannot tell me that Adele live at Royal Albert Hall or Dave Matthews and Tim Reynolds live at Radio City is horribly recorded and sounds poor on my Integra 40.2 receiver, with HT3's, and Emotiva amplification....... It sounds freakin' amazing.


The reason all of the high end boutique shops with 100% analog equipment, nothing but vinyl, etc are going out of business is not because 2 channel is dead it is because when I walk in the door and tell them my equipment list and what I'm shopping for they tell me I'M STUPID BECAUSE I DON'T OWN a 2 CHANNEL ONLY SETUP AND ONLY LISTEN TO VINYL.

That is EXACTLY what happened the last time I went in both Wilson Audio and Alterman Audio which is EXACTLY why the former is dying and the latter is dead.

Is it coincidence that New Orleans Audio Video sells Sonos products and they are blowing product off the shelves?

 

Hi Grant

I meant no offense with my comment
In an ideal world you would have dedicated systems/rooms for both HT and 2 ch


when I mentioned HT receivers - I was generalizing on the Big Name mass market run of the mill kind that most people buy. those clearly don't cut it
there are great HT processors for those who seek them out

obviously you did well with your Integra/Emotiva setup


I have an Arcam AVR 300 that works very well in my HT setup.
Yes, that Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds blu ray is stunning

Mr Wilson is very opinionated and won't survive much longer without going to HT.
As a side note, he hasn't been selling vinyl in a long long time either

He could be filling a high end HT niche - Give the people what they want - indeed
Sad

then the business goes to bestbuy

I know a few people locally who do home and business systems working direct from the company reps. I went directly to them to specifically track down equipment I was looking for. they do the design and setup and get great results. Many times it is affluent people who want a no fuss great sounding ht system blend into their room and are willing to pay for it. 

[Phil A]

But the lack of dealers does not mean 2-channel audio is dead...far from it.  Each time we attend an audio show, we see a number of new audio companies.  And many of them are only selling gear for 2-channel systems.  Obviously, they couldn't survive unless someone was purchasing their products.



Times change.

- Jim

Jim - could not agree more.  I moved to my current area towards the latter part of 1996.  While I was waiting for the house to be finished, I scouted the local dealers.  I became friendly with the part time sales person at one store (we found out we knew mutual people through different channels).  For about a 5 year period (he worked Thurs. night and Saturdays), I did virtually every install set-up with him.

I was definitely more of a HT guy and he was more of a 2-channel guy.  After many set-ups/installs, including $100k+ two channel systems, my HT, which did sound very good on music for a HT, started to get to me a bit.  To make a long story short, he became more into HT than he was and I became more into 2-channel than I was.

I learned tons hanging around the store after hours (including having the access to things to compare my home made cables to).  Over time, he left and some of the high end dealers went away too.

I'm not knocking dealers, but many have their own favorites, many times due to the fact with more limited stores, they have more of an exclusive for certain brands.  I got the opportunity to hear Salk at the Capital Audiofest (thank you for coming the first two years).  The condition of the economy and the high end market has not only left fewer dealers, but in many cases fewer really knowledgeable sales people.  I can really count on one hand the number of things I've heard at dealers that left a good impression compared to what I have at home.  I can say the same thing about sales people. 

I'm not saying I won't consider things at dealers going forward.  However, take speakers for one.  I don't think for example if I decided to change speakers, I'm going to find the quality/value of something Salk offers.  Let's face it rent and overhead are not cheap.

[geowak]

I hope that 2ch audio is not dead....

My experience in the last 6 months has been as follows.

There are a handful of dealers I found. The stores sold both 2ch audio and home theater equipment.
In just about all cases the sales people catered much more to the home theater customer. There was just more money involved, since many of the affluent customers were building a home theater and needed the expertise of the dealer. I had wanted to demo and ask many questions about some Rogue Audio, Cary and Primaluna gear. This was just not going to happen...since the sales people were not pushing 2ch gear.

I came across Don Better audio in Shaker Heights, Ohio. He sold audio from his home as an authorized dealer. I received much, much better service from him. I bought both my Vandersteen speakers and LM-Audio tube amp from him after spending some "listening sessions" he set up. Great guy to deal with. He sells, Leben, Rega, Devore Fidelity, AR, Shindo, Musical Fidelity, Vandersteen, LM Audio, Sonus Faber and others.

So in the end, if you look hard and have the time, you can get good gear. Therefore, 2ch audio is not dead. In my mind, the sound quality can never be replaced by "on the go" ipod compressed music.

I took the time to find HQ gear and it was well worth it.

[Kinger]

Interesting comment on the "out of their home" dealer you dealt with geowak.  I've heard good things about Don Better Audio and as I'm in Columbus, OH I should check it out sometime.  There is a place like that down here as well www.archiveaudio.biz  If I was ever in the market for gear again and wanted to listen to something he carried, I'd certainly set up a demo.  Seems like a great way to hear gear as it's in a home environment as opposed to a retail space.

[J Fallows]

So concerning vinyl sales figures and trends.

The action in used vinyl is rarely included in these numbers.
The numbers for used vinyl are incalculable

There is a strange kind of newness to the old medium. Sort of hip.
The people discovering records will certainly be discovering real 2 channel at the same time.
How far it goes is a matter of proper education.

Education, that's the ticket.
Yes, two channel 101.

Long live two channel.

John

[Phil A]

While it is 4 years old, this short editorial/article at 6 Moons talks about the same issues - http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/dead/dead.html

[squirrel_nut]

thanks for that link phil!  that was EXACTLY my point(s) and Jim's response fell right in line with 6moons take. if i would have read that editorial, i would not have felt the need to post my concerns.
there is indeed hope for the future of good sounding 2ch. i need to be open to the newer formats and technologies that my kids are so quick to embrace. perhaps along the way i can show them the pleasure of true high fidelity and the enjoyment it adds to the experience. this is what i have been attempting to do, but to what ends?
i have been building my new system with the hope that it would be of high enough quality to pass down. something they would be proud to own despite its age. none of us have a crystal ball, but we all remember that car we should have kept through the years, or those baseball cards. i had a 69 mustang with the shelby 428 engine. i sold it in good condition for $1200. i recently saw one go at auction for 98k. i dont expect anything like that with audio equipment, just something that is still viable and enjoyable. if nothing else, i can just foot the bill and save them a considerable amount of cash.

[werd]

Not in my house  .

[medium jim]

NO!