to balance or not to balance.

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rmurray

to balance or not to balance.
« on: 15 Jun 2009, 11:56 pm »
 :scratch: Hello Bryston fans. I just read the info explaining that the 4,3,2 sst squared amps are not 'fully' balanced. Is it really worth using this connection over my rca connects? Would there be sonic advantages ?   thanks,......... RMURRAY.

James Tanner

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Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #1 on: 16 Jun 2009, 12:22 am »
Hi All,

This is one of the most misunderstood areas in audio.  Here is a letter and an answer which hopefully will help shed some light on this subject for everyone.

From: Yuri Rodin
To: jamestanner@bryston.com
Subject: 4B-SST

Hello,
 
I am interested in the Bryston 4B-SST amplifier and have a question about the balanced connections on this amp. Does this amplifier utilize a balanced topology or is the internal amplifier circuitry unbalanced? Also, if I feed this amplifier a balanced signal to the XLR jacks how is this signal treated? Would this connection have common-mode rejection and if so what is the CMRR? Thanks for your response.
 
Yuri Rodin


Hi Yuri;
 
Thanks for your inquiry.  Bryston's balanced input module for our single-ended-output amplifiers, (includes the 2B, 3B, 4B 6B and 9B SST2), is a differential amplifier with a small amount of gain.  This diff-amp does reject noise, (as opposed to many 'true balanced' input stages which do not actually cancel noise). It's input and feedback resistors are specified to 0.1% tolerance, which gives a theoretical CMRR of 60dB, but our measurements typically come out in the mid-to-high-70dB range.
 
It may be interesting to note that Bryston's balanced-output amplifiers, (the 7B, 14B and 28B SST2), use a different input stage configuration which consists of two oppositely-connected differential amplifiers per module, one feeding the positive-polarity side of the channel, and one feeding the inverting-polarity side.  This results in even better CMRR, in the 80dB range, along with extremely low inherent noise and THD.  These are thus what the world might term 'true balanced amplifiers', but with actual cancellation of input cable noise.
 
I hope the above is helpful, but please let me know if you have any other questions.  Thanks for thinking of Bryston!
 

werd

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #2 on: 16 Jun 2009, 01:54 pm »
Hi All,

This is one of the most misunderstood areas in audio.  Here is a letter and an answer which hopefully will help shed some light on this subject for everyone.

From: Yuri Rodin
To: jamestanner@bryston.com
Subject: 4B-SST

Hello,
 
I am interested in the Bryston 4B-SST amplifier and have a question about the balanced connections on this amp. Does this amplifier utilize a balanced topology or is the internal amplifier circuitry unbalanced? Also, if I feed this amplifier a balanced signal to the XLR jacks how is this signal treated? Would this connection have common-mode rejection and if so what is the CMRR? Thanks for your response.
 
Yuri Rodin


Hi Yuri;
 
Thanks for your inquiry.  Bryston's balanced input module for our single-ended-output amplifiers, (includes the 2B, 3B, 4B 6B and 9B SST2), is a differential amplifier with a small amount of gain.  This diff-amp does reject noise, (as opposed to many 'true balanced' input stages which do not actually cancel noise). It's input and feedback resistors are specified to 0.1% tolerance, which gives a theoretical CMRR of 60dB, but our measurements typically come out in the mid-to-high-70dB range.
 
It may be interesting to note that Bryston's balanced-output amplifiers, (the 7B, 14B and 28B SST2), use a different input stage configuration which consists of two oppositely-connected differential amplifiers per module, one feeding the positive-polarity side of the channel, and one feeding the inverting-polarity side.  This results in even better CMRR, in the 80dB range, along with extremely low inherent noise and THD.  These are thus what the world might term 'true balanced amplifiers', but with actual cancellation of input cable noise.
 
I hope the above is helpful, but please let me know if you have any other questions.  Thanks for thinking of Bryston!

Hi James

Is the BP26 true balanced also?

James Tanner

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Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #3 on: 16 Jun 2009, 01:58 pm »
^
Hi werd

The BP26 has the same Fully Differential Balanced circuitry as the 2B, 3B, and 4B.

james

Levi

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #4 on: 17 Jun 2009, 02:15 am »
Good info here.  Is the SP1.7 same as BP26?

James Tanner

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Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #5 on: 17 Jun 2009, 10:11 am »
Good info here.  Is the SP1.7 same as BP26?

Hi Levi,

Correct.

james

werd

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #6 on: 18 Jun 2009, 11:32 pm »
^
Hi werd

The BP26 has the same Fully Differential Balanced circuitry as the 2B, 3B, and 4B.

james

Hi James

Has Bryston ever considered building a fully balanced pre throughout. Sounds like your next pre in the making  :wink: . Your next pre model make em a little higher (height) so you can put balanced throughputs on them.  :lol: look at me i am so bossy

1oldguy

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #7 on: 19 Jun 2009, 01:36 am »
Sounds Like a terrific idea.Werd your on the ball.

Levi

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #8 on: 19 Jun 2009, 01:53 am »
No need for a Bryston fully balanced preamp.  I already have a fully balanced tube preamp that utilized 6 x 6h30 tubes. :thumb:

James Tanner

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Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #9 on: 19 Jun 2009, 01:57 am »
Hi Guys,

The fully balanced concept does have some concerns for me. Below is an article I did about 10 years ago on the subject and I guess my concern is whether the decision to produce a fully balanced preamp has more to do with marketing than performance.


Is Your System Out Of Balance?


One question which keeps coming up over and over is the controversy regarding audio ? components being "fully balanced" versus what is sometimes referred to as "balanced converting to single ended" at the input of the electronic component (preamp, electronic crossover, amplifier etc). The correct term for this balanced converting to single ended is more accurately referred to as "differential amplifier balancing"

Popular mythology has seen fit to 'bless' the concept of 'fully-balanced' (meaning of course, two completely separate signal paths through a component, with its attendant doubling of parts cost and complexity, and halving of reliability). This approach completely misses the place, which is, of course. to eliminate hum and noise picked up by the audio cables feeding the component.

The reason for this is that a differential amplifier rejects any common-mode noise which appears at its input, by a factor equal to its common-mode rejection ratio, (normally over 1000:1). A 'fully-balanced' circuit has a common-mode rejection ratio of pricisely zero, since all signal, common-mode or not, is simply amplified and passed along via the two signal paths. It then remains up to the following component to attempt to reject that amplified noise, if it has a differential amplifier.

Thus, fully-balanced circuitry is subject to passing along any noise which might be picked up on all the cables. Then it hits the final component in the system, usually the power amp, where the differential amplifier at its input is left to deal with the sum total of the common mode noise in the signal path, (multiplied by all the gain in the system).

I don't think this is an ideal scenario. If each component, (source, preamp, electronic crossover, power amp), had its own differential amplifier input, it would cancel any common-mode noise which appeared ahead of it, rather than amplifying it.

Bryston makes a product which operates in the fully-balanced mode a microphone preamp (BMP 2), but this unit has an input transformer which rejects common-mode noise by a factor of over 250,000:1. The reason it operates on two separate signal paths is to expand its dynamic range beyond what digital storage media can accommodate. Since the next step in the signal path is into digital storage media (CD, DVD etc.) from there, this separate signal path is obviously not a concern in any following signal-processing on its way to your living room, and your ears.

All the above simply points out that what has been called fully balanced circuitry has some issues from cost to noise overload, to complexity and reduction in reliability. It can be asked if there is any useful advantage in the signal chain beyond the mic preamp?

james



Levi

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #10 on: 19 Jun 2009, 02:35 am »
Double the circuit that means double the cost for everybody.  :)

NewBuyer

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Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #11 on: 19 Jun 2009, 06:18 am »
...this unit has an input transformer which rejects common-mode noise by a factor of over 250,000:1.  ...

Very nice!  Good line-input transformers can sure make all the difference...

Levi

Re: to balance or not to balance.
« Reply #12 on: 20 Jun 2009, 03:35 am »
Correction, that was 8 x 6h30 tubes. Victor sells those tubes nowadays for $150 each.   :duh: