[mchuckp]

I assume this question is mainly pointed to Jim but figured others may have some knowledge or interest.

I know that the bamboo option would be considered eco-friendly.  But how about all the assorted veneer options?  Are there any veneers that would be considered more eco-friendly than others?  I would think some veneers come from more Eco-friendly practices.  I have no idea how wood become veneers and what becomes of unused portions. 

I do know that I don't want to be buying something that uses some rare tree somewhere.  Of course I likely couldn't afford such veneer.

Jim: On a side note, any chance you will be bringing your bamboo board that you have been staining to AK Fest?  Love to take a look at it in person.

[Photon46]

There's no simple answer to your question. Much of what makes wood "eco-friendly" is how it's sourced. You can have one example of wood be responsibly harvested and another of the same species not so responsibly harvested. For woods sourced overseas from Asia and South America, I'd be much more suspicious of irresponsible harvesting than US or Canadian products. But that's a generalization and there are exceptions in every case. For example,Teak from Asia is now usually sourced from dedicated Teak plantations. That's not as great an ecosystem as an old growth forest but it beats slash and burn harvesting that ends in ruination of the land. Domestic hardwoods like Maple, Cherry, Walnut, Ash, Hickory, can be responsibly harvested. There are all sorts of varying forests from which wood is harvested. Some wood is harvested from large corporate land holdings and some is from small family properties. Some comes from land managed/owned by the government. You also have to consider the total carbon footprint of all involved in getting said wood to market. Something you have to fly here from somewhere else factors into the "eco-friendly" equation.

[mchuckp]

There's no simple answer to your question. Much of what makes wood "eco-friendly" is how it's sourced. You can have one example of wood be responsibly harvested and another of the same species not so responsibly harvested. For woods sourced overseas from Asia and South America, I'd be much more suspicious of irresponsible harvesting than US or Canadian products. But that's a generalization and there are exceptions in every case. For example,Teak from Asia is now usually sourced from dedicated Teak plantations. That's not as great an ecosystem as an old growth forest but it beats slash and burn harvesting that ends in ruination of the land. Domestic hardwoods like Maple, Cherry, Walnut, Ash, Hickory, can be responsibly harvested. There are all sorts of varying forests from which wood is harvested. Some wood is harvested from large corporate land holdings and some is from small family properties. Some comes from land managed/owned by the government. You also have to consider the total carbon footprint of all involved in getting said wood to market. Something you have to fly here from somewhere else factors into the "eco-friendly" equation.

I knew it would be a tough question and could be debated.  I appreciate your input.  Some green initiatives are easier to trace but I'm guessing veneers is not one of them.  At the very least, I want to at least feel like I'm not stripping some somewhat rare tree for MY satisfaction.  Sorry to get "treehuggy" on everyone but it is something my wife and I like to consider with any purchase.  If I'm debating between a few products and one is more eco-friendly, I will generally pick it.

[jsalk]

In that case, bamboo is about as eco-friendly as it gets.  It is grass, so it is totally renewable.  What's more, the manufacturing process involves no VOC's.  The only downsides are cost and the fact that is is hard as nails and very difficult to sand.

I'll try and remember to bring the sample, but no guarantees.  I have a lot on my mind as far as the show goes.

- Jim

[Mariusz]

In that case, bamboo is about as eco-friendly as it gets.  It is grass, so it is totally renewable.  What's more, the manufacturing process involves no VOC's.  The only downsides are cost and the fact that is is hard as nails and very difficult to sand.

I'll try and remember to bring the sample, but no guarantees.  I have a lot on my mind as far as the show goes.

- Jim

Here is the Bamboo veneer sample - $136 per 4'X8' sheet (I also like the idea of reusable resources)


Cheers
Mariusz

[Christof]

In that case, bamboo is about as eco-friendly as it gets.  It is grass, so it is totally renewable.  What's more, the manufacturing process involves no VOC's.  The only downsides are cost and the fact that is is hard as nails and very difficult to sand.

I'll try and remember to bring the sample, but no guarantees.  I have a lot on my mind as far as the show goes.

- Jim

If I can play devil's advocate a bit....this is not meant to be taken personal by Jim or anyone, just my point of view.

This whole industry is pretty sketchy when it comes to "green" products.  Because it was brought up, Bamboo can be just as brown as it is green.  Unless I am mistaken and things have changed, Bamboo has no credible certification such as FSC.  I could very well be wrong, there are many people fighting for a certification program for bamboo and it may have just happened.  It is true that it naturally regenerates, but many forests are being cleared to grow it and it is becoming quite a monoculture.  Farmers, in an effort to grow bamboo as fast as possible, often use very high amounts of fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides which contaminate water supplies.  Almost all bamboo products have formaldehyde binders.  I would argue that domestically grown, FSC certified Birds-Eye Hard Maple is more "Green" than bamboo.  It really becomes up to use as manufacturers/consumers to not only specify but research products which are the most sustainable.  We must learn to not think that because a product comes in a green box it is better than the rest. 

[JerryM]

Engineered veneers are probably pretty eco-friendly.

EV is real wood, but from fast growing trees like poplar. The wood is engineered to look exactly like a multitude of different, ususally expensive, woods. Like Macassar ebony, or Brazillian rosewood.

No real ebony trees are harmed in the production of this engineered product. 

Eco-friendly? More than likely. Green? Who the hell knows.

Have fun,
Jerry

[Mariusz]

"Bamboo is the fastest-growing plant on Earth; it has been measured surging skyward as fast as 121 cm (47.6 inches) in a 24-hour period,[6] and can also reach maximal growth rate exceeding one meter (39 inches) per hour for short periods of time."

Wikipedia

And if you really want to be eco-friendly buy Bamboo from Vietnam not China which is less ecologically sensitive and is just trying to fulfill orders from Home Depot, Wal-Mart etc. There are also formaldehyde free Bamboo products, you just have to look and be willing to pay premium.

Mariusz

[DMurphy]

In that case, bamboo is about as eco-friendly as it gets.  It is grass, so it is totally renewable.  What's more, the manufacturing process involves no VOC's.  The only downsides are cost and the fact that is is hard as nails and very difficult to sand.

I'll try and remember to bring the sample, but no guarantees.  I have a lot on my mind as far as the show goes.

- Jim

If I can play devil's advocate a bit....this is not meant to be taken personal by Jim or anyone, just my point of view.

This whole industry is pretty sketchy when it comes to "green" products.  Because it was brought up, Bamboo can be just as brown as it is green.  Unless I am mistaken and things have changed, Bamboo has no credible certification such as FSC.  I could very well be wrong, there are many people fighting for a certification program for bamboo and it may have just happened.  It is true that it naturally regenerates, but many forests are being cleared to grow it and it is becoming quite a monoculture.  Farmers, in an effort to grow bamboo as fast as possible, often use very high amounts of fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides which contaminate water supplies.  Almost all bamboo products have formaldehyde binders.  I would argue that domestically grown, FSC certified Birds-Eye Hard Maple is more "Green" than bamboo.  It really becomes up to use as manufacturers/consumers to not only specify but research products which are the most sustainable.  We must learn to not think that because a product comes in a green box it is better than the rest. 

Devil's advocates are always welcome as far as I'm concerned.  "Green" is a very complex subject.  If a green product costs substantially more than a brown product, you also have to consider why.  Is it because there's a more complex manufacturing process?  If so, that generally means more energy being expended during fabrication, and that has to be factored in.  I suspect we're better off just considering the audio-related qualities and deciding whether that's worth the cost, particularly when the amount of commerce involved is so small.  (Until Jim buys out GM's manufacturing plants, at least).

[Christof]

Devil's advocates are always welcome as far as I'm concerned.  "Green" is a very complex subject.  If a green product costs substantially more than a brown product, you also have to consider why.  Is it because there's a more complex manufacturing process?  If so, that generally means more energy being expended during fabrication, and that has to be factored in.  I suspect we're better off just considering the audio-related qualities and deciding whether that's worth the cost, particularly when the amount of commerce involved is so small.  (Until Jim buys out GM's manufacturing plants, at least).

I agree with you, Dennis.  In my mind there is a big difference in the environmental impact between a pair of speaker cabinets with 20-30 sq.ft of veneer and and entire condo complex filled with 100K sq.ft of cheap bamboo flooring.  I have a tendency to think that we (woodworkers) are doing trees a favor by building one-of-a-kind pieces for the public to enjoy.  For the record, I feel Jim is doing a service to the trees. Use of wood in this manner helps brings about public awareness of how wonderful trees are and furthermore demonstrates to people why we should help protect forests. 

[mchuckp]

I'm not a hardcore environmentalist by any means.  I do however try to do my part by recycling, turning off unneeded lights and electronics, avoid chemicals on my lawn, bring my own mug to Starbucks, bring my own bags to the grocery store, etc.  I do lean my buying towards eco-friendly products when available.  I won't NOT buy something just because it isn't made from 100% post-consumer paper for example. 

In this case, you could argue it many ways as the wood may come from a source 2 states away from a vender who has very poor business practices but it uses very little fuel to get the material.  Or one could buy bamboo from halfway across the world that is a fast growing grass but takes a ton of fuel to get here.  Not saying one is right or wrong.

Again, please no one take any offense to me starting this thread.  I'm just a guy who likes to do what he can for our planet and make informed decisions on any purchase.  I thought maybe there was some common knowledge from those in the know who could steer me towards sticking with certain woods or at least shying me away from others.  If it really isn't possible on this type of purchase then I won't worry about it and get what I like.

[Photon46]

Mchuckp, I feel pretty much the same way you do. In the end, the small amount of wood that goes into the veneer of a speaker is almost inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I wouldn't go out and buy an endangered species that was recently harvested, but I'm also not going endlessly worry about the carbon footprint equation of every wood I might consider for a speaker. There is a sane middle ground. If you stick with things like maple, cherry, walnut, elm, hickory, or any North American hardwood, you can sleep easy at night I think. All of these are sustainable resources that come from our corner of the world and you help the local economy. You don't have to worry about them coming from a logging operation controlled by a corrupt military junta in South America or Southeast Asia.

[BradJudy]

One also shouldn't confuse bamboo as an MDF replacement (the main purpose with the bamboo option) vs bamboo as a veneer replacement (an optional piece of the equation here).  It looks like MDF varies in source wood, the binding chemicals and certifications, so it's still not a straight-forward issue.  Articles online describe MDF as being made from anything from "solely waste materials", to young trees thinned in plantations, to mostly FSC certified, to no mention of wood source.  The chemical descriptions range from VOCs and urea formaldehyde, to VOC-free, to urea formaldehyde and VOC free.  It could come from a number of countries.  

It's the hot dog of the timber industry, so you have to have a trustworthy source to know what you're getting.  

[sts9fan]

Generally speaking if its not local its not green.  It takes a whole lot of energy to transport these dense woods.  Plus very often they are bought in Africa or South America.  Shipped to Germany for processing then shipped to the US.  Just pick local woods and you are cool as you can be.  use some cool dyes to get the effect you want. 

[mcgsxr]

Hemp veneer?

[Christof]

Green by Ken Nordine

[mchuckp]

For anyone interested in researching about wood, I found this website. It tells you some info on where the trees are found and if it is threatened or not (to the best of their knowledge).  There's separate tabs for different countries.

http://www.exotichardwoods-northamerica.com/index.htm