AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => Vinnie Rossi => Topic started by: Vinnie R. on 12 Jul 2017, 03:27 pm
-
:idea: This will be the official LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread. :idea:
LIO DAC 2.0 webpage: http://www.vinnierossi.com/modules/dac2/ (http://www.vinnierossi.com/modules/dac2/)
Description
LIO DAC 2.0 is our new, statement-level LIO d/a converter module. It distinctly combines highly resolving, spacious and dynamic sound with a natural and emotionally engaging presentation. Music flows in an effortless manner that mirrors true analog playback with its seductive midrange and organic tonality.
All inputs feature isolation from the digital source, advanced FPGA buffering/re-clocking using premium “femto-clock” oscillators and ultra low-noise voltage regulation stages throughout. Pristine data feeds a dual-mono d/a implementation with independent, flagship AKM AK4497EQ converters per channel, each followed by a discrete Class-A output stage and positioned on dedicated circuit boards (a vertical stack of three separate boards minimizes both signal and power trace lengths).
LIO DAC 2.0 allows you to take full advantage of all your high resolution PCM (up to 32-bit / 768kHz) and DSD (up to native DSD512) music files, and also allows redbook CD files to sound rich and non-fatiguing with its NOS (non-oversampling), digital filterless playback mode. Add icing to the cake by combining LIO DAC 2.0 module with our optional tube output stages (including DHT PRE) to provide an even greater level of midrange richness and realism rarely found with digital playback.
Features & Specifications
- Bit-perfect playback at sampling rates up to 768kHz (16, 24, or 32 bit compatible), as well up to DSD512. Sample rates are viewable from front panel display (see note below)
- Dual-mono design, with one flagship AKM AK44497EQ d/a chip per channel
- Fully discrete, pure Class-A JFET analog outputs stage design with cascode constant-current source biasing (no opamps)
- On-board FPGA buffer and femto-reclocking circuitry negates effects of jitter. Isolated input stages.
- ‘NOS’ (non-oversampling) filter mode with digital filter bypass, as well as a Minimal Phase digital filter mode (selected via the “FILTER” button on the LIO Remote)
- Absolute polarity ‘normal’ / Absolute polarity ‘inverted’ (selected via the “PHASE” button on the LIO Remote)
- Numerous ultra-low noise, linear voltage regulators used throughout (for both digital and analog sections)
- “Silent” mute relays (*barely* an audible click from the board when changing tracks of a different sample rate)
- Inputs: 1 USB, 1 Coax (75-ohm BNC, with included RCA adapter) and 1 TOSLINK (optical). Connect up to three devices and switch between them via LIO front panel or the remote handset
- Output voltage: 2Vrms
- Output impedance: < 100 ohms
* Please note: If you already own LIO, in order to correctly display the following sample rates, it must be sent in for a free firmware update: PCM 705 and 768kHz, DSD256 and DSD512. LIO DAC 2.0 will work perfectly fine w/o the firmware update, but the sample rates listed above will not show correctly on LIO’s front panel display.
Supported bit/sampling rates
- Mac OSX (no drivers needed):
PCM: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352, 384, 705, and 768kHz (16, 24, and 32-bit)
DSD: DSD64, DSD128, DSD256 (DoP)
- Windows PC (with included driver):
PCM: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352, 384, 705, and 768kHz (16, 24, and 32-bit)
DSD: DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512 (Native, or DoP)
- Using Sonore microRendu, ultraRendu, or SonicOrbiter SE:
PCM: 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, 352, 384, 705, and 768kHz (16, 24, and 32-bit)
DSD: DSD64, DSD128, DSD256, DSD512 (Native, or DoP)
About LIO DAC 2.0’s USB isolation, buffer, and reclock circuit
The LIO DAC 2.0 USB input first goes through a galvanic isolation stage, and the USB 5V bus is only used as a 'signal' (not as a power source) to turn ON our "LIO power" to power the USB input section. The entire LIO DAC 2.0 is powered from a main linear regulated feed from LIO's internal ultracapacitor power, and then there are numerous linear voltage regulators used for each of the three PCBs.
After the isolation, the digital data is fed into to our FPGA buffer and reclock circuitry (using a XILINX FPGA implementation and femto-clocks, which are also powered by their own dedicated super regulators for this section). The reclocked digital output feeds the dual d/a chips (separate boards for L and R channels, which get their own linear regulators for the digital and analog sides of d/a chips and for their Class A analog output stages).
There is a lot going on in this design, and it has been in the works for well over a year now (and has taken up a ton of time and $$$). LIO DAC 2.0 does not have any design elements in common with the first “LIO DSD/PCM DAC” (except for the fact that it still has USB, coax, and optical inputs). LIO DAC 2.0 is a "statement level" design for the LIO, where I am confident that many will find it holds its own against dacs into the $10K range, and far beyond if you are using a DHT PRE after it!
Pricing, availability, and trade-in of LIO DSD/PCM dac
Please visit: http://www.vinnierossi.com/modules/dac2/ (http://www.vinnierossi.com/modules/dac2/)
LIO DAC 2.0 is entering production and right now is the time to pre-order and save $300!
- The pre-order price for the LIO DAC 2.0 module is $2995. After July 31, 2017, the regular price will be $3295.
- LIO DAC 2.0 pre-orders are estimated to ship end of August / early September.
- Trade-in of your LIO DSD/PCM DAC module for a 100% trade-in credit of $895.
...
-
About using Roon's upsampling with LIO DAC 2.0
Native DSD512 will work with the Sonore microRendu, ultraRendu, and Sonic Orbiter SE.
This evening I tested it with my 2015 MacBook Air running Roon 1.3 via its Sample Rate Conversion (in the DSP Engine settings) to DSD512.
But first, you need to properly set it up, as follows:
1) In Sonore's SonicOrbiter setup (www.sonicorbiter.com), you need to enable the Roon Ready app and then go to:
2) Settings > Roon Ready > DSD Support - you must select Native DSD (not DoP, or else Roon will
not allow for a sample rate conversion higher than DSD256).
3) In Roon, you need to go to: DSP Engine (enable it) > Sample Rate Conversion (enable it) >
Sample Rate Conversion drop down (select DSD) > DSD Sample Rate (select DSD512) >
Enable Native DSD Processing (select Yes)
Some things note:
- Make sure you have a computer that has sufficient resources to do the sample rate conversion to DSD512, and for sustained listening sessions.
This will be the signal path in Roon:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165411&size=small)
- I will post more later about how the Roon upsampling to DSD512 sounds with LIO DAC 2.0 vs using the NOS filter mode. Simply put - it sounds awesome (but they have a different flavor) 8) Upsampling via Roon to DSD256 (quad-DSD) also sounds nearly as good, and uses less processing power.
- I also confirmed HQPlayer (integrated into Roon) filtering of native DSD512 works. If you are integrating HQPlayer into Roon, you should see the signal path look something like this:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165417&size=small)
- I found that running HQPlayer filters with Roon conversion to DSD512 really taxed my CPU. I am far from an HQPlayer whiz and receive setup help from mirekti. I just wanted to post this to show that it works, and mention again that you should make sure you have
enough processing power if you want to try this.
Vinnie
-
reserved space
-
Well, I am in. :)
I will also start without FW upgrade as I could verify in Roon what exactly is sent to the DAC.
It would be great if the FW could be updated at home, though.
-
Well, I am in. :
I will also start without FW upgrade as I could verify in Roon what exactly is sent to the DAC.
It would be great if the FW could be updated at home, though.
Hi mirekti,
The firmware update is not required, but it will be nice to have done so you can view "FREQ" on the LIO display and confirm the sampling rate feeding LIO DAC 2.0. Yes, there are other ways to confirm as you mention. When John and I were working on LIO's interface, I wish we added in a way for updates to be done by the customer. :oops:
All,
1) New LIOs will automatically have the new firmware, and I have just finished updating our website so LIO DAC 2.0 appears as an option for all the LIO product configurations (as well as "custom configure LIO"). If you guys find any typos, bugs, etc., please email me directly (mailto:vinnie@vinnierossi.com) and I'll get them taken care of ASAP.
2) I just added some info about using the LIO DAC 2.0 with Roon upsampling (my 2nd post in this thread, above) and HQPlayer.
3) When your LIO DAC 2.0 ships, we will email you tracking info and a link to the Windows driver (Thesycon driver). As mentioned above, no driver is needed if you are using Mac OSX or Sonore products like the microRendu.
4) I have not tested with SOTM SMS-200, but their website says "PCM 32bit/768KHz max, DSDx512 max" so I *assume* it will work fine and in a similar fashion to Sonore.
Orders are coming in quickly - thank you, everyone! :hyper: :singing: :notworthy:
(the hard part is the waiting, but the summer will be over before you know it!)
Cheers,
Vinnie
-
4) I have not tested with SOTM SMS-200, but their website says "PCM 32bit/768KHz max, DSDx512 max" so I *assume* it will work fine and in a similar fashion to Sonore.
If you need to test with the sMS-200 let me know and I'll ship you mine to try. Or just ship me the LIO to try. ;) OR even better the ultracapacitor powered (MINI) standalone Dac 2.0 :P
-
I am missing info on the new firmware. Is it only for the Dac 2.0?
-
I am missing info on the new firmware. Is it only for the Dac 2.0?
Hi Theobetley,
Yes, please see my first post in this thread above.
* Please note: If you already own LIO, in order to correctly display the following sample rates, it must be sent in for a free firmware update: PCM 705 and 768kHz, DSD256 and DSD512. LIO DAC 2.0 will work perfectly fine w/o the firmware update, but the sample rates listed above will not show correctly on LIO’s front panel display.
Hi jtwrace,
Thank you for your offer. I'll get in touch with you...
Vinnie
-
I'm in, as well
What kind of skill is necessary to make the FW upgrade ? There is probably one or two good technicians in Switzerland to make the job.
-
I'm in, as well
What kind of skill is necessary to make the FW upgrade ? There is probably one or two good technicians in Switzerland to make the job.
Hi borelek,
For any decent technician (with a DIP extraction tool, phillips head screwdriver, and hex allen key for removing the front panel), it should be pretty easy. I would simply send a new 40-pin DIP chip loaded with the new firmware (and I can email detailed instructions). This chip, to be exact:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165420)
Vinnie
-
I am so proud that I have just done the pre-order !!!
-
About using Roon's upsampling with LIO DAC 2.0
- I will post more later about how the Roon upsampling to DSD512 sounds with LIO DAC 2.0 vs using the NOS filter mode. Simply put - it sounds awesome (but they have a different flavor) 8) Upsampling via Roon to DSD256 (quad-DSD) also sounds nearly as good, and uses less processing power.
- I also confirmed HQPlayer (integrated into Roon) filtering of native DSD512 works.
- I found that running HQPlayer filters with Roon conversion to DSD512 really taxed my CPU. I am far from an HQPlayer whiz...
I am really interested in comments about this one i.e. what path others will prefer, NOS or oversampled.
Here is a simplified example what is behind HQPlayer's oversampling http://www.signalyst.com/upsampling.html
-
Sorry if this had been asked already. Is there a trade in with Lio PCM DSD DAC with Microrendu powersupply?
Thanks
-
Decent technician : found
Thanx Vinnie
Serge
Hi borelek,
For any decent technician (with a DIP extraction tool, phillips head screwdriver, and hex allen key for removing the front panel), it should be pretty easy. I would simply send a new 40-pin DIP chip loaded with the new firmware (and I can email detailed instructions). This chip, to be exact:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=165420)
Vinnie
-
Sorry if this had been asked already. Is there a trade in with Lio PCM DSD DAC with Microrendu powersupply?
Thanks
See below which is from the first post.
- Trade-in of your LIO DSD/PCM DAC module for a 100% trade-in credit of $895.
...
-
Dying to place my order!! Gotta wait till next week --dang new house! Hope that doesn't put me to far down the queue.
-
See below which is from the first post.
jtwrace,
That is not the board he is talking about. There is a $395 option for the DAC board which supplies power to the microRendu. There is not a choice in the pull down menu for trading in that version.
Steve
-
jtwrace,
That is not the board he is talking about. There is a $395 option for the DAC board which supplies power to the microRendu. There is not a choice in the pull down menu for trading in that version.
Steve
There is only one dac and the µRendu power option was hand done and isn't offered anymore. Only Vinnie can say whether he will offer the $395 credit for it but the Dac is obviously covered.
-
I might be wrong, but if I remember well I believe I read somewhere that those who added uR power on DAC could get that extra trade-in only if buying a power supply as well.
As you wrote, only Vinnie knows for sure what was offered.
-
I am so proud that I have just done the pre-order !!!
Thanks again to ALL of you who pre-ordered LIO DAC 2.0 already - I was not expecting so many pre-orders in just 24 hours, and more still are coming in today! :o I still have more DAC 2.0 modules available from this first production batch currently in the works, but if you guys keep this up I'm going to completely sell out faster than I planned for - but I'll try not to complain about that. :green: I'll just have to gear up for another batch.
Sorry if this had been asked already. Is there a trade in with Lio PCM DSD DAC with Microrendu powersupply?
Thanks
Hi sandmanct and everyone who has the LIO DSD/PCM DAC+ (this was the special "+" version that I fitted with a super-regulated output for the microRendu for +$395). Please email me directly (mailto:vinnie@vinnierossi.com) about this if you are upgrading to LIO DAC 2.0. One option is that we can apply that $395 towards a VR MINI...
Decent technician : found
Thanx Vinnie
Hi borelek,
Excellent - and please remember to email me for instructions on installing the new chip. Others have emailed me about this as well, and I do see it as a better option for those who do not wish to ship their LIO back (especially customers outside the USA), and who feel comfortable doing this kind of delicate electronics work (or have a local tech to help with it).
Dying to place my order!! Gotta wait till next week -- dang new house! Hope that doesn't put me to far down the queue.
Hi jriggy,
Congratulations on your new house! :beer:
---
John Darko of Digital Audio Review posted today about the LIO DAC 2.0:
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/07/vinnie-rossi-announces-lio-dac-2-0-module/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2017/07/vinnie-rossi-announces-lio-dac-2-0-module/)
(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/vinnie-rossi-LIO_5-580x326.png)
Once I get through the pre-orders, I'll plan to get some out for review...
I will also be exhibiting in 2 rooms this fall at RMAF 2017, and both will have LIO Integrated fitted with LIO DAC 2.0. But before then hopefully many of you will already be here posting your impressions. :wink: 8)
Vinnie
-
....
Hi sandmanct and everyone who has the LIO DSD/PCM DAC+ (this was the special "+" version that I fitted with a super-regulated output for the microRendu for +$395). Please email me directly (mailto:vinnie@vinnierossi.com) about this if you are upgrading to LIO DAC 2.0. One option is that we can apply that $395 towards a VR MINI...
I took this option two months ago .... pure bliss
Best regards
serge
-
All,
It has been a very busy week, and I only have a few more LIO DAC 2.0 modules left available from this first production run
that is due to be ready to ship late August / early September.
As long as you pre-order before the end of this month, you will still receive the pre-order pricing. But the next production run (yes, I am getting that in the works because of all your pre-orders - thank you!) won't be ready to ship probably until late September.
And if you'd like to send me your LIO for the DAC 2.0 installation / firmware upgrade and are also interested in the silent switching (if you don't already have this), I can do it all at the same time.
Thanks again,
Vinnie
-
All,
It has been a very busy week, and I only have a few more LIO DAC 2.0 modules left available from this first production run
that is due to be ready to ship late August / early September.
As long as you pre-order before the end of this month, you will still receive the pre-order pricing. But the next production run (yes, I am getting that in the works because of all your pre-orders - thank you!) won't be ready to ship probably until late September.
And if you'd like to send me your LIO for the DAC 2.0 installation / firmware upgrade and are also interested in the silent switching (if you don't already have this), I can do it all at the same time.
Thanks again,
Vinnie
Will the LIO upgrade for sample rate display affect use with the original 1.0 DAC? In other words if I have you do the firmware upgrade, but not the 2.0 DAC just yet, will the LIO display still work as normal with the old one?
-
Will the LIO upgrade for sample rate display affect use with the original 1.0 DAC? In other words if I have you do the firmware upgrade, but not the 2.0 DAC just yet, will the LIO display still work as normal with the old one?
Hi TomS,
Yes, the firmware update is backwards compatible with original LIO DAC 1.0.
Vinnie
-
How do we know which batch our order is in? First or the second?
Vinnie, please don't forget to include the update chip with my order too. Thanks..
Kin
-
Hi Vinnie. Will the LIO DAC 2.0 support the same bit/sampling rates via BNC as it does USB?
-
How do we know which batch our order is in? First or the second?
Vinnie, please don't forget to include the update chip with my order too. Thanks..
Kin
Hi Kin,
All orders place so far are part of my 1st batch. I have a few more left from this batch! The next batch will
ship end of September.
Yes, I made a note to include the front panel chip with updated firmware for your order.
Hi Vinnie. Will the LIO DAC 2.0 support the same bit/sampling rates via BNC as it does USB?
Hi targa02,
No - the LIO DAC 2.0's BNC and optical inputs support up to 24/192kHz PCM.
USB supports up to 32/768kHz PCM and up to DSD512.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
All,
Tomorrow, July 31st is the last day of the LIO DAC 2.0 pre-order (to save $300).
I am overwhelmed (in a good way :wink:) by how many LIO customers are upgrading to LIO DAC 2.0 - thank you! 8)
I'm just about all sold out from this 1st production run!
UPDATES as of July 30th
- The DAC 2.0 PCBs are well into production, as are the new rear plates. There will be a small heatsink attached to the rear
plate (as well as 10mm x 10mm heat sinks for each d/a chip) to keep temperatures under control for those who plan to upsample
into the DSD512 domain.
- I am very optimistic that the DAC 2.0 modules will begin shipping in late August, and into September.
- A new batch (2nd production run) will follow and they should be available end of September.
- I will be exhibiting at RMAF this October in two separate rooms, and each room will be running a LIO with DAC 2.0,
so hopefully those interested in LIO and DAC 2.0 will be able to make it for a good listen! :singing:
- For those of you who are going to have a try at installing the microchip (with DAC 2.0 firmware), I am working on instructions
that will be email to you when DAC 2.0 ships. For those of you who plan to ship your LIO to me for the DAC 2.0 installation and
firmware update, I will be contacting you when your DAC 2.0 is close to being ready - and then you can ship your LIO to me. The installation will just take me a few days...
- When your DAC 2.0 ships, I will email the link to the Thesycon drivers (for those using Windows).
- I won't have pictures for the website until after I receive the production batch. The website needs updating, but it's been a very busy summer and I just haven't had the time.
I'll continue to keep you all posted.
Thanks again!
Vinnie
-
- I will be exhibiting at RMAF this October in two separate rooms, and each room will be running a LIO with DAC 2.0,
so hopefully those interested in LIO and DAC 2.0 will be able to make it for a good listen! :singing:
I posted more details about RMAF, here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148336.msg1624829#msg1624829 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148336.msg1624829#msg1624829)
Vinnie
-
August 17th - UPDATE TIME
We're getting close! LIO DAC 2.0 is still on-target to begin shipping at the end of this month. :hyper: I'll be shipping in the "FIFO" queue (first orders in, first orders out), and my aim to to have them all ship by mid-September. There were certainly a lot more orders than I anticipated, but all the pre-orders will ship from this first production batch (and as mentioned above, a new batch is in the works and should be ready at the end of September).
To those who want to try installing the new 40-pin DIP chip with the updated firmware for LIO DAC 2.0, I will be emailing you early next week with a PDF file containing the instructions. Then you can review it and decide if you'd still like to give it a try, or instead schedule to send your LIO to me to update the firmware. It is also possible that you can just send in your LIO Front Panel and I can update it (instead of having to ship your entire LIO).
Regarding LIO MOSFET AMP 2.0
Some of you are interested in LIO MOSFET AMP 2.0 and have asked if it would be better to wait to ship your LIO when LIO MOSFET AMP 2.0 is ready. I hope to have LIO MOSFET AMP 2.0 ready for pre-ordering sometime this Fall. I will be posting much more detail about it next month (this is not the thread for discussing it, and I will start a new one for MOSFET AMP 2.0 next month), but I want to state upfront that MOSFET AMP 2.0 will definitely require that you ship your LIO to me for installation. It will involve new aluminum front and side panels where each output channel will be mounted to each side panel (acting as the heat sinks), a new module that takes up the location of MOSFET AMP 1.0, and other things that only I feel comfortable working on. :wink:
So if you rather wait to send your LIO to me when MOSFET AMP 2.0 is ready, I can certainly update the firmware for LIO DAC 2.0 when I install MOSFET AMP 2.0. And remember - you can still use your LIO DAC 2.0 without the latest firmware installed. You just won't see the following sampling rates properly displayed on the front panel in the "FREQ" display mode: PCM705, PCM768, DSD256, and DSD512. You can still confirm they are being sent to DAC 2.0 via playback software such as Roon.
If you are in no rush and you prefer, I can even install LIO DAC 2.0, update the firmware, and install LIO MOSFET AMP 2.0 all at the same time. Everyone has different requirements, so please just email me directly about this and I'll add your request into my system and we'll go from there...
Thanks again, everyone!
Vinnie
-
It is also possible that you can just send in your LIO Front Panel and I can update it (instead of having to ship your entire LIO).
Now, this is something rather interesting.
How hard is it to get the front panel removed?
-
Now, this is something rather interesting.
How hard is it to get the front panel removed?
Hey mirekti,
It's just 4 socket cap screws on the front panel to remove it from the side panels, two ribbon cables to unplug on the back, and
one 5-pin cable to unplug (but you MUST take note of the orientation of the 5-pin cable so you do not reverse it when you re-install it).
It will all be outlined in my PDF instructions. :rules:
Vinnie
-
Is there a decoder ring we can use to translate whatever the DAC Display shows to that the freq actually is?
-
Is there a decoder ring we can use to translate whatever the DAC Display shows to that the freq actually is?
Hi tme110,
No - until you have the firmware updated, it is going to display "0" for the higher sample rates (if you are in the "FREQ"
display mode on the LIO front panel).
Vinnie
-
To those who want to try installing the new 40-pin DIP chip with the updated firmware for LIO DAC 2.0, I will be emailing you early next week with a PDF file containing the instructions. Then you can review it and decide if you'd still like to give it a try, or instead schedule to send your LIO to me to update the firmware. It is also possible that you can just send in your LIO Front Panel and I can update it (instead of having to ship your entire LIO).
I have just sent out an email to everyone who mentioned to me that they'd like to install the 40-pin DIP instead of having me update the firmware and install the LIO DAC 2.0.
If you were one of those customers and did not receive my email, please email me directly and I'll resend.
Thank you,
Vinnie
-
UPDATE Aug 29th
YES - LIO DAC 2.0 modules will begin shipping on Friday! :singing: :dance: :hyper:
We've been busy building and carefully testing each one of them.
1) For those of you using Windows, the Theyscon drivers for LIO DAC 2.0 can be downloaded here:
http://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/LIO_DAC_2_USBAudio_v4.13.0.exe.zip (http://www.vinnierossi.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/LIO_DAC_2_USBAudio_v4.13.0.exe.zip)
Just unzip the .exe driver file titled: LIO_DAC_2_USBAudio_v4.13.0.exe
2) I hope to be able to ship out a few each day, and my goal is to have all orders in the queue shipped
out by mid-September, which is right around the corner.
3) I will also be emailing those of you who contacted me stating that you would like to send in your LIO
for DAC 2.0 installation and firmware upgrade.
4) There are a lot of things in the works, but between now and mid-September, I will be pretty much focusing
on getting all the LIO DAC 2.0 orders shipped. Then I need to gear up for the RMAF show.
Thanks again for all your orders and patience, and feel free to email or call me if you have any questions or concerns.
Vinnie
-
ho, ho, Friday is the day after tomorrow ! :bounce:
-
Woo Hoo!!! A new toy coming soon!
-
I can't wait to get mine either, hopefully HQPlayer wont fry my CPU in next few days upon receiving the DAC. :)
-
Very exciting, especially for you guys who are first in line.
Looking forward to your impressions.
Regards Magnus
-
The race to see who gets it first!
-
I probably should have taken pictures but the new DAC is up and running! :thumb: I have it connected to an old Toshiba DVD player to burn it in. I listened for two minutes and I swear the difference between the 2.0 and the 1.0 is not subtle. :o Can't wait for it to run for a while and then do some serious listening.
-
I went to the LIO when it first came out and, in that purchase, reduced all my cables to a single USB cable. Currently, I'm not using any "special" USB cable. I'm wondering, given the design of DAC 2.0, would there be any benefit of a USB cable that separates the power from the data; like Curious, FYS and others?
-
No, a regular USB cable is recommended, and nothing in between the source and DAC.
-
I probably should have taken pictures but the new DAC is up and running! :thumb: I have it connected to an old Toshiba DVD player to burn it in. I listened for two minutes and I swear the difference between the 2.0 and the 1.0 is not subtle. :o Can't wait for it to run for a while and then do some serious listening.
We definitely need pix! :)
-
We definitely need pix! :)
If it's not industrial secret !
my own DAC 2.0 is between Zurich and here ...
-
All cables, everywhere, make a difference. Of course, you would want the best sounding usb cable you can afford (they all sound different).
-
All,
LIO DAC 2.0's began shipping last week, and more will hopefully be shipping later this week!
I probably should have taken pictures but the new DAC is up and running! :thumb:
Hi Chris,
I'll try to take a few pics this week and will post here.
I have it connected to an old Toshiba DVD player to burn it in. I listened for two minutes and I swear the difference between the 2.0 and the 1.0 is not subtle. :o Can't wait for it to run for a while and then do some serious listening.
8)
Currently, I'm not using any "special" USB cable. I'm wondering, given the design of DAC 2.0, would there be any benefit of a USB cable that separates the power from the data; like Curious, FYS and others?
Hi radarnyc,
Good question!
While the LIO DAC 2.0 does not use the USB +5V bus to power the DAC 2.0 circuitry, it does use it as a "trigger" to confirm there is a connection to the USB source (and there is a red LED on the bottom-level PCB of the LIO DAC 2.0 next to the USB jack that glows when connected to the USB source).
The DAC 2.0 has its own on-board circuitry that galvanically isolates, buffers, and reclocks the data. The best connection should be a direct connection using a"USB 2.0 compliant" cable from the USB source (computer, or microRendu/Sotm) to the LIO DAC 2.0.
USB cables that are not in compliance with the USB 2.0 standards should probably be avoided, as I cannot guarantee that the LIO DAC 2.0 will work correctly and not malfunction with such non-USB 2.0 compliant cables.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
I installed my DAc2.0 over the weekend as well as upgraded my microRendu to an Ultra. I spent sometime a number of configurations to see the increment impact of the two additions. The 2.0 DAC really makes a difference. WOW! could tell the moment it first played... heard things never heard before quite astonishing :o
It does run hot... guess that is what a heat sink is for ;-) and has the new electronics smell.
I am breaking it in it in by playing non upsampled music from Tidal via Roon. However, I have upsampled up to DSD 512 for short bursts (couldn't resist) and it is jaw dropping. I had to turn down the SDM to -4db to keep it stable. It might be some of the configuration or processing bottle neck issue....oh so much to tweak and learn
I did notice that it seemed to require less volume than the DAC 1.0. I was wondering if that is due to the Class A-Jfet output
-
Hi CCJ,
Welcome to the VR forum, and thank you for your post!
The 2.0 DAC really makes a difference. WOW! could tell the moment it first played... heard things never heard before quite astonishing :o
Oh, yeah! It's in a whole other league for sure! :singing: As much as I love LIO DAC 1.0, it is hard going back once you've been
using DAC 2.0.
It does run hot….guess that this what the heat sink is for ;-)) and smells like new electronics when playing.
This is normal (the heat sinks on the d/a chips are bonded via an adhesive that has that smell, and it goes away).
Just make sure you have the LIO DAC 2.0 rear plate attached to the LIO rear panel (via the 4 hex nuts). Make sure they are secure, but do not over-tighten. Doing this also helps transfer some heat into the metal of the rear panel.
I had to turn down the SDM to -4db to keep it stable believe that is more Rendu issue
Correct. And it could also be related to how much computer processing power you have.
I also recommend try upsampling to DSD256 ("Quad-DSD") in Roon. I found with LIO DAC 2.0, it still gives nearly all the benefits
of upsampling to DSD512, but takes up less computer processing power.
It seems to require less volume than DAC 1.0., is that due to the class A- JFET output?
They are both 2Vrms output, so it could be something else (e.g. gain setting in Roon) that is different?
I'm glad you are up and running and enjoying it! Expect it to get even better with more hours of use !
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Vinnie,
Have you quantified a 'full' break-in time? 150, 300, 500 hours?
Also, might there be an RCA>BNC adapter included?
All,
More early reports please! :drool:
-
I just got my DAC 2.0 today. No up-sampling done yet, just running through my favorite tracks. Like others, the difference is recognized immediately with separation of instruments being most pronounced. Even more substantial is the improvement with some of my higher quality DSDs.
My music is stored on a vortexbox running Fedora/Linux and LMS. DAC was recognized by Fedora/Linux without any issues.
Just wow...I really can't believe what I'm hearing.
Thank you so very much Vinnie for being a visionary and bringing products of this quality to the marketplace.
Very best to everyone.
(mike in ny)
-
Vinnie,
Have you quantified a 'full' break-in time? 150, 300, 500 hours?
Also, might there be an RCA>BNC adapter included?
Hi jriggy,
Hard to really come up with an exact time, but after the 1st 100 hours, you are > 95% there. :wink:
A BNC-to-RCA adapter is included for non trade-in orders. If you are trading in your LIO DAC 1.0, then keep
your BNC-to-RCA adapter... or let me know if you lost it and I'll give you a special price on a new one. :green:
Like others, the difference is recognized immediately with separation of instruments being most pronounced. Even more substantial is the improvement with some of my higher quality DSDs.
Just wow...I really can't believe what I'm hearing.
Thank you so very much Vinnie for being a visionary and bringing products of this quality to the marketplace.
Thank you for posting your initial impressions, Mike (and everyone!!!) :notworthy:
I snapped a few cell phone pics of a LIO DAC 2.0 on the workbench:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168114)
[There is a linear voltage regulator behind the heat sink that does the lion share of reducing the input voltage from the ultracap banks, so it does get fairly warm]
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168113)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168115)
[Side view of the LIO DAC 2.0's neat and tidy 3-PCB stack. The little heat sink on the top is for the LEFT D/A chip. There is also one on the RIGHT D/A Chip, which is located on the middle-level PCB. The two transistors coming off of the top and middle PCBs are used in the Class A analog output stage and get warm, so they are near the ventilation slots on the rear panel]
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168116)
[Here is a better view of the top PCB for the left channel. Pretty much the entire left half of this PCB is the discrete Class A analog output stage, and linear voltage regulators for the output stage and D/A chip. You can also see the mute relay on the bottom left side of this pic. This is a very silent reed relay, so you shouldn't hear audible "clicks" during song changes of files that are of different sample rates.
The mid-level and top-level PCBs are the same (except one is configured for LEFT channel, and one is configured for RIGHT channel).
The bottom PCB is for the digital inputs, as well as the XILINX FPGA, oscillators, re-clock circuit, PIC micro (control firmware), linear regulators for various 5V, 3.3V, 2.5V, 1.8V, etc.]
Vinnie
-
Hi jriggy,
Hard to really come up with an exact time, but after the 1st 100 hours, you are > 95% there. :wink:
A BNC-to-RCA adapter is included for non trade-in orders. If you are trading in your LIO DAC 1.0, then keep
your BNC-to-RCA adapter... or let me know if you lost it and I'll give you a special price on a new one. :green:
Thanks For the offer Vinnie.. I'm trading in amp module 1.0 I actually have one--found it. Besides, I decided to go ahead and send one of my digital cables off for retermination to BNC conector. So all will good when the DAC arrives!
-
I installed my DAc2.0 over the weekend as well as upgraded my microRendu to an Ultra. I spent sometime a number of configurations to see the increment impact of the two additions.
You should test it with the uRendu and without and let us know if it makes a difference. I'm using a mRendu but am looking into not using any streamer.
The DAC was as easy as you'd expect to install. I wasn't able to verify the pins of the main board were lined up (well, I could on one side but not the other), but everything else was lined up and it aligned with the screw holes so everything came together correctly.
It's amazing how small the marvel of technology that the DAC2.0 is. Yes, it is larger than the DAC1.0 but I had never seen that out before, and with all that technology, you're (or I was) just thinking it would be bigger. So it's impressive everything fits on three tiny boards.
I went straight to DSD512 and it worked without issue. I'm using an i7 Sonic Transporter and wasn't sure it was going to handle it but it does. Though when I'm playing SACD rips, my processor rating goes down to 1.1 sometimes but that's because it's also downconverting from 5.1 to 2.0. I do get a hickup here and there so I contacted the maker of the sonic transport and he said he knew about hickups with DSD512 and said an update was coming - it did yesterday but haven't had time to test it. The sonic transporter has no fan or moving parts and makes no noise. It does get slightly warm playing DSD512, but it has never heated up before at all - so it is working hard. Using the new Audeze filters make no noticeable difference, but we'll see once I get a convolution filter going too.
-
It's amazing how small the marvel of technology that the DAC2.0 is. Yes, it is larger than the DAC1.0 but I had never seen that out before, and with all that technology, you're (or I was) just thinking it would be bigger. So it's impressive everything fits on three tiny boards.
Hi tme110,
Thanks for your post!
Yes, each LIO DAC 2.0 board is 3" x 3", multiplied by 3 boards adds up to 27 square inches. It makes use of many surface mount (SMD) components to keep the design as compact as possible.
I went straight to DSD512 and it worked without issue. I'm using an i7 Sonic Transporter and wasn't sure it was going to handle it but it does.
It does get slightly warm playing DSD512, but it has never heated up before at all - so it is working hard.
Glad you are up and running already with DSD512! Try Roon DSD256 upsampling as well. I was surprised by how close it sounds to DSD512 upsampling, and you probably won't get any hiccups.
Enjoy it!
Vinnie
-
Though when I'm playing SACD rips, my processor rating goes down to 1.1 sometimes but that's because it's also downconverting from 5.1 to 2.0.
What app are you using for your SACD rips. I have a number of SACD's that I need to rip.
-
There's no software. You need a gen1 PS2 or a previous gen OPPO and about a month of troubleshooting to make it work. It's an easy/quick process once it works but I don't think most people would want to go thru the hassle.
-
Thanks. It does sound like more trouble than I am willing to deal with. :o
-
Thanks. It does sound like more trouble than I am willing to deal with. :o
There may be ripping services which will do SACDs for you, but I know of none myself.
-
There may be ripping services which will do SACDs for you, but I know of none myself.
Maybe Tyson here on AC is still offering it...
-
Thanks all. I was just hoping their was an easy way to do it. If it involves extensive tinkering or paying for a service to do it ... probably not worth it to me as I don't have an extensive collection. I have them all on CD so probably next step would be to get them on vinyl and call it a day.
-
The DAC arrived yesterday, it takes time to Syndey, Australia. Have a run with USB input, the sound indeed very outstanding, a signifcant improvement over dac 1.
This morning have a try with Optical and Coaxial inputs (I think most of us are being concerate on listening with USB), but hava a same probelm, the sound mutes after a minute play.
I have to switch the input selector, and the sound is back however, it mutes after a minute.
I thought may be is my CD transport or cables, therefore, I changed them, the same issue happens.
I replaced the DAC 2.0 with 1.0, the 1.0 does not have this probelm
Anyone has the same problem or have you tried ?
-
The DAC arrived yesterday, it takes time to Syndey, Australia. Have a run with USB input, the sound indeed very outstanding, a signifcant improvement over dac 1.
This morning have a try with Optical and Coaxial inputs (I think most of us are being concerate on listening with USB), but hava a same probelm, the sound mutes after a minute play.
I have to switch the input selector, and the sound is back however, it mutes after a minute.
I thought may be is my CD transport or cables, therefore, I changed them, the same issue happens.
I replaced the DAC 2.0 with 1.0, the 1.0 does not have this probelm
Anyone has the same problem or have you tried ?
Hi Mitch751,
Yes, I have two other customers who recently mentioned this to me. USB has been fine, but it is looking like there is a bug with the SPDIF inputs.
I thought it was an issue between the transport and the DAC 2.0 (as I have not been able to replicate it here with my CD transport, so I never caught wind of this), but now I'm thinking it could be something going on with the SPDIF receiver chip that handles the coax and optical.
I'm looking into it and will be all week.... and I'll post updates soon.
Thanks for your patience with this,
Vinnie
-
Thank you, Vinnie
-
All,
UPDATE on the issue on the coax (BNC) and optical (TOSLINK) S/PDIF inputs:
1) I believe I have it all figured out, but tomorrow I want to spend the day doing lots of testing
under different scenarios to confirm it is now rock-solid, and then I plan to start shipping
again on Friday. :hyper: :whip:
2) I have confirmed that this issue does NOT apply to the USB input. It only applies if
you are using the coax or optical inputs.
3) I will post more info about it tomorrow evening, but I first want to do (1) above.
4) If all looks good to go after tomorrow, I plan to have the majority of LIO DAC 2.0 orders shipped by the end of next week.
5) I have quite a few LIO units in the shop for the DAC 2.0 installation. I hope to get them shipped out on Friday
and early next week. I will then be emailing others in the queue who want to ship their LIO to me for the DAC 2.0
installation, as I'll be ready by then to provide a quick turn-around.
Thanks for all your patience with this!
Vinnie
-
Thank you Vinnie, always great service provided
-
Got my LIO DAC 2.0 finally.
I succeeded to put all in order of work despite my two left handed skill.
Very good sound already
lets go to the burn it in
Thanks for all Vinnie.
-
All,
Good news! :singing: I have a solution for the LIO DAC 2.0 module's SPDIF issue that some of you reported to be about. :idea:
I now have 4 customers who have contacted me stating that only when using coax or optical inputs (INPUT D1 or D2), the
sound would mute unexpectedly.
After lots of hunting for this issue, I found that there are two digital input select lines going to a microcontroller on DAC 2.0 bottom PCB. They receive the signal from the LIO when you select your DAC 2.0 input. They are quite "sensitive."
By adding a decoupling capacitor to each line, the problem is resolved. I tried all day to replicate it... so I feel good about this solution.
1) To those 4 customers who contacted me regarding this issue with their DAC 2.0, please send me your module and I'll add the capacitors to the board and then ship back ASAP to you. I'll be emailing you as well in case you do not read this forum often.
2) To those who have the DAC 2.0 board and are only using the USB input, no worries - this issue is only for the SPDIF inputs. So no rush to ship back to me (send it the next time you'll be away on a business trip, vacation, etc.). You can send it in at any time that is convenient for you.
3) To everyone who did not yet receive their DAC 2.0 modules (I know, there are still many of you out there!), I plan to ship more tomorrow and all throughout next week. By the end of next week, I plan to have *most* of the DAC 2.0 orders shipped out.
And as I wrote in my last post above:
I have quite a few LIO units in the shop for the DAC 2.0 installation. I hope to get them shipped out on Friday (tomorrow)
and early next week. I will then be emailing others in the queue who want to ship their LIO to me for the DAC 2.0
installation, as I'll be ready by then to provide a quick turn-around.
So all is BACK ON TRACK! 8)
Thanks again for all your patience with this,
Vinnie
-
Vinnie - you continue to demonstrate the benefits of operating a nimble small business, bravo!
As the LIO platform evolves, you may feel the need to enlist the support of (more?) beta testers in your development process. As such, I'd like to take a step forward to volunteer and will be happy to discuss supporting qualifications if you're ever interested :)
-
Vinnie - you continue to demonstrate the benefits of operating a nimble small business, bravo!
As the LIO platform evolves, you may feel the need to enlist the support of (more?) beta testers in your development process. As such, I'd like to take a step forward to volunteer and will be happy to discuss supporting qualifications if you're ever interested :)
Hi jpm,
Beta testers sounds like a good idea in the future, and thank you for your interest in volunteering!
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
UPDATE 9/20:
As of yesterday, nearly all of the LIO DAC 2.0 orders have shipped! :dance: There are only a few of you left who I have emailed
to send in your LIO for the DAC 2.0 installation.
So hopefully over the next week or two, more listening impressions will be posted to this thread. It will be much appreciated!
I'll also have LIO DAC 2.0 playing at Rocky Mountain Audio Fest next month, and after the show, my next batch of DAC 2.0
modules should be in stock.
Thanks again, everyone!
Vinnie
-
An Now for ........ Phono Stage 2.0? Ultra-capacitor Power Regenerator 1.0? (On my wish list) :D :P :P What's next Vinnie?
-
Vinnie - you continue to demonstrate the benefits of operating a nimble small business, bravo!
As the LIO platform evolves, you may feel the need to enlist the support of (more?) beta testers in your development process. As such, I'd like to take a step forward to volunteer and will be happy to discuss supporting qualifications if you're ever interested :)
The new one arrived this morning, have it installed and have been running more than one hour, the LIO DAC 2.0 module's SPDIF issue seems solved ....thank you Vinnie for the great work.
I will post the Dac 1 and 2 asap
-
This DAC 2.0 sounds very good. I really like my Isabellina, I really liked the Dac 1.0. And I still listen the first. But there is a sweetness in the DAC 2.0 that makes very difficult to go away from the listening area.
I know Vinnie and most of you are listen through Roon, as I do as well most of the time, but please give a try to Audirvana. The overall impression seems not so different of Roon, but the details are sooo much ... detailed.
I don't use SPDIF, but as I take two weeks of vacation, I'll send the Dac 2.0 back to you, Vinnie.
About beta testers : I think as Vinnie gave us a good price for the first batches, we are kind of beta testers. And please don't worry, Vinnie, for this little (and rare) flaw. I am (and I'm sure, we are) very happy to help you in the process toward the good sound.
-
About 28 hours in with LIO DAC 2.0 now. I've not been seeking out specific music trying to make detailed comparisons, just listening as I normally would.
Early observations:
6 to 8 hours of playing seemed to get the sound to round out well
Improved micro detail and decay an separation is the biggest impression so far
TIDAL's "Legends: Beck" playlist is proving to be a spectacular experience with the depth and details of arrangements easily accessible
-
About beta testers : I think as Vinnie gave us a good price for the first batches, we are kind of beta testers. And please don't worry, Vinnie, for this little (and rare) flaw. I am (and I'm sure, we are) very happy to help you in the process toward the good sound.
No disagreement. However, from a complexity perspective the DAC module probably has to handle to greatest potential variability supporting external digital transport devices that are evolving rapidly ... fortunately for Vinnie and all of us, the fix required sounds relatively straightforward. Helping Vinnie to ensure avoidance of costly design and / or production changes was my main concern.
-
I strongly agree. Perfect formulation, jpm. Thanks for that, not easy for to be so clear in English as a French speaking person.
-
... another DAC observation (especially for any Del Amitri fans) in the opening bars of "Just Before You Leave" from "Can You Do Me Good?", the realism of the harp knocked me back in my seat, not to mention the ease with which I was able to distinguish individual voices in the backing vocals ...
The crashing guitars in "Drunk in a Band", a sound that's especially difficult to reproduce as anything other than guitar-ish noise, sounds like exactly what it really is.
and BTW - if you are a Del Amitri fan, do not miss "The Uncle Devil Show" which is a recording not a TV show, but enjoys some fantastically playful lyrics.
-
All,
Thank you for posting your initial impressions of LIO DAC 2.0! :singing:
the realism of the harp knocked me back in my seat, not to mention the ease with which I was able to distinguish individual voices in the backing vocals ...
Improved micro detail and decay an separation is the biggest impression so far
Hi jpm,
Yes, DAC 2.0 certainly does a much better job with unraveling the layers in the music and subtle details/decays, and like Borelek mentions, has a sweetness (overall, just more natural with many genres of music) that keeps you wanting to listen for hours.
All,
A few questions that have come up that I'd like to address about DAC 2.0:
1) Heat: The heatsink on the back of DAC 2.0 is supposed to get warm/hot. No worries, as the main input regulator on the other side is spec'd at operating temperatures much higher than what it runs at. Just make sure you attached the rear plate of DAC 2.0 to LIO's rear panel via the 4 hex nuts. Make them snug, but do not over-tighten as they can snap.
There is a lot more circuitry in DAC 2.0 that draws more current (generates more heat) than DAC 1.0: For example, the FPGA buffer/reclock circuitry, the dual flagship AKM d/a converters consume more power, and that Class A output stages consumes a lot more
power than an opamp output stage, and there are more linear voltage regulators used throughout. The heat is also spread out over 3 stacked PCBs instead of 2 PCBs.
Playing at higher sampling rates (e.g. upsampling to DSD512) also consumes more power = more heat. This is "normal."
2) Between switching digital inputs, you will find that there is some delay (a few seconds) with DAC 2.0 compared to DAC 1.0. This is also normal and due to the new data buffering / re-clock circuitry.
3) I understand that there are many audiophile USB cables, and some of you own them and want to try. That's fine - but just please keep in mind that if they don't comply with USB 2.0 specifications, they *might* have issues from drop-outs (especially at higher sampling rates) to not working at all.
I have used a 6 foot and 15 foot Belkin Gold USB 2.0 cables with no issues at 768kHz PCM or DSD512 (but keep in mind that your computer must also be up to the task of playback at these rates):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81zyAMm%2B51L._SY679_.jpg)
4) As for other devices in the USB path (isolation devices, regens, and the like), feel free to try them, but you might be surprised that you prefer LIO DAC 2.0 connected directly to your USB source. Try it and see what sounds better to you, and thank you for posting your findings here!
As many of you are now receiving your DAC 2.0s, I want to thank you all in advance for posting your listening impressions here (and follow-ups as your burn-in your DAC 2.0 and put it through its paces). :notworthy:
I'll have LIO Integrated configured with DAC 2.0 in two rooms at RMAF in just a few weeks - I hope to see you there!
Vinnie
-
Preliminary impressions: My LIO with DAC 2.0 installed arrived promptly this week on the day I had the mother of all head colds. I decided to hook it up to be sure it was working but wait a few days before listening. Of course, I couldn’t resist a small aural preview in spite of the cotton inside my head. Turning it up a little (to 4) with my favorite jazz FM station streaming in I was startled to hear low level brush strokes on cymbals presented with new clarity and detail. How could I be hearing this (or anything) with my badly plugged ears? I turned it up and, in spite of everything, heard a large improvement in my system. DAC 2.0 is more than a pleasant upgrade over 1.0. In my opinion it may be a major breakthrough. Everything, top to bottom is more real and lifelike. Much less “hi-fi” than ever before. Musical, three dimensional, dynamic, whatever audiophile buzzwords you want to toss at it. it all seems to be there. I spent several hours listening through the blockage the first day and now, a few days later and several hours in, I can confirm those first impressions. My previous DACS, LIO DAC 1.0 and the lovely sounding Decware ZDSD, are just not in the same league. For me, this is one of those rare, “run don’t walk” situations. Get on the build list asap. It ain’t cheap but, dollar for dollar, it is the most startling improvement I’ve made to my system in years.
-
Get on the build list asap. It ain’t cheap but, dollar for dollar, it is the most startling improvement I’ve made to my system in years.
Thanks for your post, CSI ! :guitar: :drums: :beer:
-
Vinnie
Can you explain more about the Filters 1 and 2? Currently I prefer using Filter 2 finding that it sounds more analogue and less forward.
If I plan to use upsampling through Roon or HQPlayer with their filters before sending to the DAC2.0 what DAC2.0 filter I should use? I wouldn't want to pass the data through filters twice. Can you elaborate a little on this?
I read this from roonlabs discussion board:
" .. They (DAC chips including AKM, ESS, Ti etc) almost all upsample PCM to high res DXD PCM rates internally and then convert to a DSD type file before outputting analog. If you send them DSD they may also upsample it to a higher DSD rate if that is their "native" rate. This is true even for DACs that claim "no upsampling"... "
Does this apply to the AK4497eq chip found in the DAC2.0 and if so what would be the optimal Roon or HQPlayer upsampling frequency to keep the upsampling in Roon or HQPlayer without it being done a second time in the chip before converting to analogue?
Thanks, Kin
- Oh by the way, the cracking noice at higher upsampling frequencies may have been caused by older microRendu software. Sonore tend to update their firmware but keep the version numbers the same and so you don't know if there is an update until you try to force the check. I updated from 2.5v to 2.5v (there were many file changes reported) and the cracking noice is mostly gone even at DSD256. Will continue to observe and test more.
-
If I plan to use upsampling through Roon or HQPlayer with their filters before sending to the DAC2.0 what DAC2.0 filter I should use? I wouldn't want to pass the data through filters twice. Can you elaborate a little on this?
F2 is NOS mode which means no filter is applied in the DAC no matter what signal rate you send.
I am using Roon, HQPlayer, upsamling to DSD512 and the default F2.
I hope this helps.
-
Hi Kin,
Can you explain more about the Filters 1 and 2? Currently I prefer using Filter 2 finding that it sounds more analogue and less forward.
The default filter for DAC 2.0 every time you turn on LIO is FILTER 2, which is the "NOS" filter. This is a non-oversampling, "digital
filter-less" mode. If you feed 44.1kHz in, you get 44.1kHz out. If you feed 192kHz in, you get 192kHz out, etc. And the digital filter in the dac is bypassed and instead there is a minimal analog filter on the Class A output stage. As you mentioned, this is a very detailed natural sounding mode.
FILTER 1 is a "minimal phase, slow roll-off" filter mode that also upsamples all PCM to 768kHz. So no matter if you are playing 44.1, 96, 192, 384, etc... it upsamples to 768kHz and then performs d/a conversion.
NOTE: Both F1 and F2 are only used with PCM music - not DSD.
For DSD, I do filtering in the analog output stage.
I read this from roonlabs discussion board:
" .. They (DAC chips including AKM, ESS, Ti etc) almost all upsample PCM to high res DXD PCM rates internally and then convert to a DSD type file before outputting analog."
Does this apply to the AK4497eq chip found in the DAC2.0 and if so what would be the optimal Roon or HQPlayer upsampling frequency to keep the upsampling in Roon or HQPlayer without it being done a second time in the chip before converting to analogue?
This is not the case for LIO DAC 1.0 or 2.0. No PCM is converted to DSD in either LIO dac module.
If you don't want any upsampling to take place, simple run LIO DAC 2.0 FILTER 2 (default) and set Roon sample rate conversion to "Disable." What you feed in is what you get out.
If you want Roon to sample rate convert all PCM to DSD, set sample rate conversion in Roon to DSD256 or DSD512 (I still find them both to sound nearly identical, and DSD256 uses less processing power). In this case, F1 or F2 makes no difference because you are then feeding DSD to the LIO DAC 2.0.
- Oh by the way, the cracking noice at higher upsampling frequencies may have been caused by older microRendu software. Sonore tend to update their firmware but keep the version numbers the same and so you don't know if there is an update until you try to force the check. I updated from 2.5v to 2.5v (there were many file changes reported) and the cracking noice is mostly gone even at DSD256. Will continue to observe and test more.
It could also be your computer running Roon, or your router (are you going WiFi between your computer and your router)?
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Thanks for the useful information Vinnie.
There’s something special with the F2 filter (or no filter). The sound is very engaging and relaxed but still so detailed. Can’t stop listening, Very nice!
As I try more I’m finding that a small amount of upsampling to say 88 or 176 is enough to help focus the music yet keep artificial digital sharpening to a minimum. Soundstage width and height at higher upsampling rates seems to shrink for me and vocals seems to pop out too much and become narrower.
A bit like plasma TVs compared with OLED 4K HDR screens. The latter is super sharp with super rich colours and detail but I much prefer the more natural feel of the older generation of plasma TVs.
-
About a month ago I got my first LIO in the AVC/Tube and DAC1.0 configuration for working with my Spatial Audio Hologram M3TM. And also waiting for the second LIO in the configuration with DAC2.0 for my client with Spatial X1. A couple of days ago
i received a second LIO with a DAC2.0 and of course I wanted to hear it in my system with M3Triode’s. I installed new DAC and started listening. From the first seconds you understand, DAC1.0 and DAC2.0 - this is absolutely different level. No comparison! Now only DAC2.0! The sound of DAC2.0 is very energetic and powerful, realistic and refined, absolutely involving in the audition of each composition. Speed characteristics and sound details of the low frequency range - the feeling that the new DAC is supplemented by an additional power to the LIO amplifier) For my room and the forced layout of the M3TM on a long wall, this was a very important addition! The bass is very tight and powerful and its control is surprises. With DAC2.0 you get not only more macro/micro details, huge 3d image and etc. It sounds very exciting and keeps you while the music is playing.
One of the most musical audio components I've ever heard for a long time.
Thank’s Vinnie!
p.s. Sorry for my English
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169100)
-
Hi iSAM,
Welcome to the VR forum! Thank you for your post and picture. Looking good! 8)
Hi flkin,
A bit like plasma TVs compared with OLED 4K HDR screens. The latter is super sharp with super rich colours and detail but I much prefer the more natural feel of the older generation of plasma TVs.
I do as well, and I like your analogy! :idea:
Enjoy your weekend, and happy listening!
Vinnie
-
Hi,
My turn to receive the DAC 2.0 module and the new 40 pin chip.
I got the package a few days ago but got time to do it today.
Both replacing the chip and DAC module was easier than I thought thanks to a very fine manual provided by Vinnie.
Perhaps 1 hour for this.
Have only listened for 30 minutes in filter F2 mode, and It sounds absolutely gorgeuos. Compared to the previous dac its like the famous
veil slowly dissappears. You got punch , definition, improved tone, yes the list goes on.
Thanks Vinnie, good work.
Back to listening....
Cheers /Magnus
-
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=169100)
Hi iSAM
From your pic I think I see some SOtM boxes. If so, do they make a difference with the DAC2.0 with the new clocks and isolation technologies?
-
Hi iSAM
From your pic I think I see some SOtM boxes. If so, do they make a difference with the DAC2.0 with the new clocks and isolation technologies?
Hi,
Yes, i use SOtM's with Uptone ISO Regen. I added each module step by step. And made several experiments with their combination with DAC2.0. My conclusion is that each element before DAC2.0 has a very significant value! Yesterday i installed the Curious USB cable. It is very difficult not to hear the improvements that he brought :) I plan to continue to improve my source further. DAC2.0 has a huge potential and everything you use before it will only reveal it. :thumb:
-
Hi,
Yes, i use SOtM's with Uptone ISO Regen. I added each module step by step. And made several experiments with their combination with DAC2.0. My conclusion is that each element before DAC2.0 has a very significant value! Yesterday i installed the Curious USB cable. It is very difficult not to hear the improvements that he brought :) I plan to continue to improve my source further. DAC2.0 has a huge potential and everything you use before it will only reveal it. :thumb:
Hi iSAM,
I seem to have about the same boxes with sotm sms-200 ultra and the TX-usb ultra and ISO Regen. The problem for me is when the ISO Regen is in the chain either between the sotm or last in the chain right before the DAC 2.0. With the ISO Regen I get unprovoked shutdowns and I have to restart the LIO. But you are right all boxes before the DAC is of use for best SQ.
Can you tell me how you have setup the chain and or if you have the ISO Regen in ISO defeat position or not.
Thank you!
Magnus
-
Hi iSAM,
I seem to have about the same boxes with sotm sms-200 ultra and the TX-usb ultra and ISO Regen. The problem for me is when the ISO Regen is in the chain either between the sotm or last in the chain right before the DAC 2.0. With the ISO Regen I get unprovoked shutdowns and I have to restart the LIO. But you are right all boxes before the DAC is of use for best SQ.
Can you tell me how you have setup the chain and or if you have the ISO Regen in ISO defeat position or not.
Thank you!
Magnus
Hi magnuska,
I use Regen between SOtM and the last before DAC1.0 and DAC2.0, everything worked fine. Which PSU do you use with Regen?
-
Would have thought that the ISO Regen and the tX-USBultra does the same thing. And given that the DAC2.0 also has some form of regeneration, this will be 3 regenerations in a row! :icon_surprised: Actually if you consider the sMS200ultra conversion from ethernet to USB a generation of sort.... :lol: :thumb:
Good to know the SOtM products further help the DAC2.0, will consider the SOtM Trifecta after using the DAC2.0 for a while first.
-
Did you guys measure any of these claims or they were based on a blind A vs B comparisson?
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/usb-add-on-devices-measurements-including-regen.1270/
I use DAC 2.0 only, and it is so good that things like my mood, time of day, wine or not etc. are the only things that can alter my perception of music.
-
Did you guys measure any of these claims or they were based on a blind A vs B comparisson?
https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/usb-add-on-devices-measurements-including-regen.1270/
I use DAC 2.0 only, and it is so good that things like my mood, time of day, wine or not etc. are the only things that can alter my perception of music.
Hi mirekti,
You have the opportunity to do the simplest thing - if you use a "ordinary" USB cable, replace it with a top-list of USB cables discussed and used by other users and all questions about blind testing will be closed for yourself :wink:
Yes, of course, DAC2.0 has analog and sweet sounding with the usual USB for $2 straight from my Mac Air and Audirvana. This is really his merit and feature, which most DAC do not have. In my system, the difference between $ 2 USB and DHLabs Mirage USB and Curious USB is obvious and does not require blind testing. The same applies to the addition of the Regen or SOtM filter to the chain.
Best regards,
Aleksandr.
-
I've been living with the DAC 2.0 for a couple weeks now. It is immediately obvious that it is huge step-up from the DAC 1.0. I was so used to the DAC 1.0 sound that it really took me a couple weeks to dial in what could be done with the DAC 2.0.
What amazed me from the very beginning is how revealing the DAC 2.0 is. It will pull out the maximum amount of detail from any sound file and you'll definitely hear elements of music that you've never truly heard before.
My digital path for music is CapsZuma computer (using JRiver & HQ Player) --> MRendu --> LIO. I enjoyed the ability of HQ Player to up-sample to the DAC 1.0. However, I never truly heard the impact of the variety of filter options before. The 2.0 is so revealing of musical detail that each change made in HQ Player is very noticeable.
Today I finalized HQ Player settings. For PCM I'm up-sampling everything to 384 and using the poly-sinc-short-mp filter with RPDF dither setting. In the case of DSD I up-sample to 256 and use poly-sinc-mqa-mp filter and the DSD7 256+fs Modulator. The DAC 2.0 has an incredible level of musicality and detail. For the DSD filter, I believe the “mqa” is related to reducing the level of noise on mqa files. Even though I'm not using mqa, I found that it made the background completely black. It was astounding.
After dialing in all of the settings above, I couldn't stop listening! However, I have had an issue with running Windows 10 Pro, where it would sometimes stutter when doing significant up-sampling. It seemed to be caused by all of the periodic processes Windows just kicks off now and then. To eliminate these, I bought Audiophile Optimizer and ran that. This helped the up-sampling issue, but also, surprisingly, expanded the soundstage even further. So far, so great!
-
I have my DAC 02 for about 150 hours. For the first 100 or so hours I had to use the Hum Cans on my NOS tubes. It was really loud. The tubes
were NU 45, RCA black plate 2A3 and a Cunningham CX 345. The new tubes are EH 2A3, Gold Lion PX 300, SV811-10 ( slight hum) and
a pair of KR PX4's. At about the 150 hour mark I noticed that the HUM was gone.
I put the HUM Cans away. I now hear some of the sweetest music I have ever heard.
Most of listening is with the sv 811-10 with the back switch down and the filaments
in the 2.5 position. It is beautiful. If I want to impress someone with a big solid
soundstage that is dynamic and impressive I use the KR PX4.
I am an old guy that just listens to CD's ( Not that there is anything wrong with that ). If there is another old guy out there with a system similar to mine, Try
a CD by Beegie Adair, THE GOOD LIFE a tribute to Tony Bennett. That piano
is so sweet. OH yes, my speakers are Turbo 3 Masters.
I was reading a 2017 RMAF report where someone said that the attendees were
really old, like Rolling Stone old. I can go further back then that.
Try Wingy Minone, the one armed trumpet player from the 1930's.
All I can say now is that " YOU ARE THE MAN VINCENT, YOU ARE THE MAN "
-
Have only listened for 30 minutes in filter F2 mode, and It sounds absolutely gorgeuos. Compared to the previous dac its like the famous
veil slowly dissappears. You got punch , definition, improved tone, yes the list goes on.
Thanks Vinnie, good work.
Back to listening....
Cheers /Magnus
What amazed me from the very beginning is how revealing the DAC 2.0 is. It will pull out the maximum amount of detail from any sound file and you'll definitely hear elements of music that you've never truly heard before.
After dialing in all of the settings above, I couldn't stop listening!
Most of listening is with the sv 811-10 with the back switch down and the filaments
in the 2.5 position. It is beautiful. If I want to impress someone with a big solid
soundstage that is dynamic and impressive I use the KR PX4.
Hi magnuska, ThomasKott, and coldfogey,
Thanks for posting your LIO DAC 2.0 impressions in this thread!
DAC 2.0 was a big hit at RMAF 2017, in two rooms this year! I am slowly adding to the RMAF 2017 coverage thread, here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153158.0 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=153158.0)
Many attendees / members of the press said this is the best they've heard LIO sing, and the only thing new that I brought
this year was DAC 2.0... :) :wink:
Thanks again to everyone who purchased DAC 2.0, and thanks for posting all your impressions here!
Enjoy it! :singing:
Vinnie
-
A LIO DAC 2.0 customer from Thailand asked me to post his impressions here:
Hi Vinnie,
I just installed DAC 2.0 today. Like you said, I really love DAC 2.0. When I used DAC 1, though the detail, sound stage and image are better, the bass and atmosphere are not to the par comparing with analog output from my Rotel RCD 985BX (fully modified). However, with DAC 2.0, everything are brought up to a whole new realm. Detail is a lot better than the DAC 1. Sound stage expand wider with really ‘black’ background between the pinpointed image. Yet, there are more atmosphere. May be it due to the improvement on the low frequency, I guess.
I don’t know how to explain the experience in English, since my English is not that good. We have a word in a Thai, ไพเราะ, may be you can use the google translate to get the meaning. I try to explain quite a bit. The over all sound quality pull me into the music. It made me excitedly pull one CD out after another. It made listening to the music more pleasurable.
Best regards,
Patapong
Thanks for your feedback, Patapong!
I did look up the Thai word: ไพเราะ
Google translates it to the English word: Melodic :singing:
Enjoy your DAC 2.0!
Vinnie
-
Please allow me to ask a question, which has been confusing me for quite some time.
I have been told by adding Mutec MC3 USB+, there will be a signifcant improvement on every DAC (not matter how good it is, included LIO USB2). I understand this Mutec is just a reclocker, which LIO USB 2 has already Built in, in this case, why should I need it ?
People keep on telling me how important is the master clock, if this is the case, why many good grade DAC including LIO do not have an wclock in / out for external master clock?
If reclocker has already done the job, why should an extra Master clock need to add on ?
-
Just installed my DAC 2.0 an hour ago, so likely some break in still to occur. I didn’t have to wait for the break in to hear the improvement compared to the DAC 1.0. I can hear deeper into the music, the clarity is incredible. More as it breaks in, but I don’t need any more time to know that it’s a keeper. I’ll be shipping my DAC 1.0 back Monday! Great job Vinnie, very impressive.
Best,
Ed
-
Just installed my DAC 2.0 an hour ago, so likely some break in still to occur. I didn’t have to wait for the break in to hear the improvement compared to the DAC 1.0. I can hear deeper into the music, the clarity is incredible. More as it breaks in, but I don’t need any more time to know that it’s a keeper. I’ll be shipping my DAC 1.0 back Monday! Great job Vinnie, very impressive.
Best,
Ed
Hi Ed,
Nice - glad you are enjoying your LIO DAC 2.0 right out of the box! It gets even better 8)
Thanks for your post and keeping us posted!
Vinnie
-
I wanted to throw out a very brief update on my DAC 2.0, it is possibly the best money I have spent on audio.
Best,
Ed
-
Now when I read there would be a LIO trade in program I think I might be in trouble.
Is the price list for preamp, its modules and monos set?
I assume one could order a preamp with the DAC only, and add phono sometime later, correct?
...wrong thread :(
-
I wanted to throw out a very brief update on my DAC 2.0, it is possibly the best money I have spent on audio.
Best,
Ed
Hi Ed,
I'm very pleased to hear that you and all my DAC 2.0 customers are thoroughly enjoying it! :beer:
---
All,
I sent a LIO DAC 2.0 to DARKO AUDIO last March, and John Darko just posted his review:
https://darko.audio/2018/06/giant-steps-from-the-vinnie-rossi-dac-2-0/ (https://darko.audio/2018/06/giant-steps-from-the-vinnie-rossi-dac-2-0/)
(https://darko.audio/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/vinnie-rossi-lio-dac2.0-1-4-580x387.png)
As you will see, besides the excellent review it includes a couple of videos (one about LIO in general, and one about installing the DAC 2.0
and LIO XLR OUTPUTS module). What a great start to the week! 8)
...the DAC 2.0 LIO affords music greater conviction. It’s firmer of foot-(stomp), more overt in its expression of a song’s scale and drama.
...After a week with the triple-decked DAC 2.0, I re-installed the double-stacked original [DAC 1.0] to find its overall gestalt pinched in the middle, greying on top and a little short of breath. One word: lacklustre. The new version outclasses it in every way: better clarity, better dynamics, better detail retrieval, greater avidity.
...And yet I knew this from the get-go. A first listen to the DAC 2.0 had me, quite literally laugh out loud at my hifi system, so pronounced was the upgrade’s magnitude.
...The LIO DAC 2.0, playing into the Genelecs via auto-former pre-amplifier module, delivers a musical intensity that we just don’t quite get from the PS Audio DirectStream going DAC direct into the same loudspeakers.
(https://darko.audio/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/vinnie-rossi-lio-dac2.0-2-2-580x326.png)
Many thanks to John for taking the time to review DAC 2.0 (he has had his LIO with DAC 1.0 since 2015, so he knows how it sounds in comparison!) and for his additional effort in taking the videos / pics that give the reader a better idea on how LIO's modular approach allows for easy upgrading by our customers.
Vinnie
-
I read John's article with obvious enthusiasm, since I've been enjoying the DAC 2.0 for a few months.
It's hard to compare to another statement-level DAC on the market both in terms of pricing, value, and sound. All I can say is that it's the most natural sounding DAC I've ever had and that I'm happy that Vinnie has developed this business model of reduction of obsolescence.
Thanks again for your innovation! Today's sonic forays were Roon/Tidal MQA files like some o the newer Avett Brothers albums, since they're playing in KW in late November.
Thanks again!
Edit: Price not withstanding, to what do you think the mainstream audiophile journalists would compare the LIO DAC 2.0? I know it's apples to oranges in terms of case and trade-in, but if you restricted the parameters to the technical specs alone, what's it's competition? (News flash; I'm not looking to trade it in, more interested in bragging rights to those who spent big bucks on DACS only to look down their noses. :)
-
All I can say is that it's the most natural sounding DAC I've ever had and that I'm happy that Vinnie has developed this business model of reduction of obsolescence.
Thanks again for your innovation!
Thank you, Matthew! I'm glad to hear about how you and so many more of my customers are enjoying the flexibility of LIO, the relative ease of upgrading and 100% trade-in policy for upgraded modules. That was my vision with LIO from the very beginning, and I appreciate learning how well it has been working out for you all! :notworthy:
Price not withstanding, to what do you think the mainstream audiophile journalists would compare the LIO DAC 2.0? I know it's apples to oranges in terms of case and trade-in, but if you restricted the parameters to the technical specs alone, what's it's competition? (News flash; I'm not looking to trade it in, more interested in bragging rights to those who spent big bucks on DACS only to look down their noses.
Any stand-alone dac into the $10K (and perhaps a few that are even more expensive) would be fair comparison in my [heavily biased] opinion regarding how outstanding DAC 2.0 sounds. :green:
All that really matters is how you are enjoying your music with your system. Regarding those who may look down their noses at you because they spent more money, I wouldn't even begin to waste your time playing that game. That's a one-upmanship, "keeping up with the jones" type of game, but is it really any fun? They have a lot invested in their game, so try not to make them feel nervous on their tightrope. Congratulate them instead. :wink:
What matters is how you are connecting with your music and hopefully loving the time that you spend listening.
Thanks again for your post!
Vinnie
-
How different will the L2 DAC be compared to the existing DAC 2.0? And will the upcoming L2 DAC work in the LIO?n
-
How different will the L2 DAC be compared to the existing DAC 2.0? And will the upcoming L2 DAC work in the LIO?n
Hi Bones13,
The L2 DAC is based on the LIO DAC 2.0. The only differences (besides the labeling on the rear panel and on the PCBs)
are:
1) L2 DAC's main regulator (the voltage regulator that feeds most of the other numerous voltage regulators on the 3 boards) is upgraded to a Belleson SPZ type super-regulator.
2) L2 DAC is $3495 (vs $3295).
Yes, L2 DAC is compatible with LIO. At some point by the end of this year, L2 DAC will replace LIO DAC 2.0 (it is expensive to stock two versions of essentially the same dac).
For those that want LIO DAC 2.0 upgraded with the Belleson SPZ, I can do it for $250 + return shipping.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Hi Bones13,
The L2 DAC is based on the LIO DAC 2.0. The only differences (besides the labeling on the rear panel and on the PCBs)
are:
1) L2 DAC's main regulator (the voltage regulator that feeds most of the other numerous voltage regulators on the 3 boards) is upgraded to a Belleson SPZ type super-regulator.
2) L2 DAC is $3495 (vs $3295).
Yes, L2 DAC is compatible with LIO. At some point by the end of this year, L2 DAC will replace LIO DAC 2.0 (it is expensive to stock two versions of essentially the same dac).
For those that want LIO DAC 2.0 upgraded with the Belleson SPZ, I can do it for $250 + return shipping.
Best regards,
Vinnie
Hi Vinnie,
As for soundquality , how much upgrade is it compared to DAC 2.0?
Thanks!
Magnus
-
So Vinnie I am a bit confused. So as you know I have the Dac 2.0 in my Lio. Can this upgrade for $250 be applied to my unit? Does The ps unit feed off the ultracaps?
-
one more thing can I do the upgrade myself?
-
So Vinnie I am a bit confused. So as you know I have the Dac 2.0 in my Lio. Can this upgrade for $250 be applied to my unit? Does The ps unit feed off the ultracaps?
one more thing can I do the upgrade myself?
Hi Theobetley,
The upgrade only applies to the LIO DAC 2.0 module, so yes, the power still comes from the LIO ultracap supply.
You would need to send me the module (just the bottom PCB) so I can upgrade the main regulator with the Belleson SPZ (which also
involves removing two tiny surface mount resistors on the PCB, and wiring to the Belleson that gets mounted to the rear plate of the module.
As for soundquality , how much upgrade is it compared to DAC 2.0?
Thanks!
Magnus
Hi Magnus,
The Belleson SPZ update to the DAC 2.0 improves the openness and decay in the top-end, and noise floor is even lower. In a revealing system, I believe you'll find this upgrade to be well worth the $250. But I am not saying it is a major upgrade like going from DAC 1.0 to DAC 2.0.
I hope this helps,
Vinnie
-
Hi Magnus,
The Belleson SPZ update to the DAC 2.0 improves the openness and decay in the top-end, and noise floor is even lower. In a revealing system, I believe you'll find this upgrade to be well worth the $250. But I am not saying it is a major upgrade like going from DAC 1.0 to DAC 2.0.
I hope this helps,
Vinnie
[/quote]
Hi Vinnie,
Thanks for the explanation.
Yes I agree It should be worthwile for the outlay. I trust you on that. :wink:
Regards Magnus
-
I have had the new upgraded DAC 2.0 for some time now .
Can recommend it!
More music :D
-
I have had the new upgraded DAC 2.0 for some time now .
Can recommend it!
More music :D
Hi Magnuska,
Thank you, and I'm happy that you like it! "More music" is what it is all about, my friend! :banana piano:
Cheers!
Vinnie
-
Hi,
has anyone tried different USB cables with the DAC2.0 and can share their experience?
Thank you
-
Hi,
Just would like to confirm the following statement :
"FILTER 1 is a "minimal phase, slow roll-off" filter mode that also upsamples all PCM to 768kHz. So no matter if you are playing 44.1, 96, 192, 384, etc... it upsamples to 768kHz and then performs d/a conversion. "
Which means no matter the original source sample rate of PCM (except DSD), it autos upsamples to 768, however the display of Freq shows the oringal sample instead of upsampled 768, right ?
Thank you
-
Hi Mitch751,
This is all correct!
- The default filter when you turn on your LIO is Filter 2 (non-oversampling, digital filterless mode).
- When you toggle to Filter 1, all PCM is internally upsampled to 768kHz (even though the front panel display shows the USB
sample rate of the signal feeding into the DAC 2.0 module).
Best regards
Vinnie
-
well note,
thank you for your prompt reply.
-
Hi Mitch751
I don't know what is the reason for your question besides confirming your findings while you are using LIO but if you are looking for the best sound and if you are using Roon and your computer is capable of handling it, I would recommend you to use the following configuration. Make sure DAC is set to use default non oversampling filter. Then go to Roon settings, find your LIO and enable DSP for it. Turn on upsampling to DSD256 and make sure that it is says Native DSD and let LIO's DAC do its magic of converting DSD straight to the analog. Remember that upsampling to DSD is very processor intensive and will be done by your computer's processor so make sure it up to the task. If you are using Apple computer remember that they use same Intel processors used by computers running Windows
In response to the question about USB cable a couple of posts above, yes different cables will make the difference but remember that more expensive it does not always mean better
For several years I'm using Japanese cable I got from Amazon, after reading a detailed review about it in one of the two well-known magazines about High End Audio, which gives much better sound than twice more expensive Audioquest cable which was, or maybe still is, on Stereophile's Recommended Components List
-
When I first purchased LIO, it came with DAC version 1.0 and its Filters functions are differently with DAC 2.0. I did not realize it does the oversampling by selecting filter 1, until I read a post here.
I am currently using either Audiravana + to oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 764, or Roon + HQ player oversampling to DSD256, and sometimes my MacBook pro crashed during the play.
The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.
-
for USB cable, I have changed from Audioquest Diamond to Curious cable, which made in Australia and it sounds better and price much lesser
-
Anyone care to venture an opinion on this - which would you think would offer the best overall (by the usual hi-fi parameters) performance?
Assumptions - good USB transport, LIO amp module
1. LIO Dac 1.0 with DHT stage
OR
2. LIO Dac 2.0 with AVC/Tube stage
Comments???
-
Hi dspringham
While I never heard DAC 2.0 with AVC/tubes, I had DAC 1.0 with all possible configurations starting with RVC/tubes and ending with DHT and believe me DHT is the way to go. And yes I have tried different tubes with RVC and AVC including famous cyro treated Telefunken from Upscale Audio.
If i guess correctly you can't afford DAC 2.0 with DHT and asking about other options but DHT is the way to go
-
Hi dspringham
While I never heard DAC 2.0 with AVC/tubes, I had DAC 1.0 with all possible configurations starting with RVC/tubes and ending with DHT and believe me DHT is the way to go. And yes I have tried different tubes with RVC and AVC including famous cyro treated Telefunken from Upscale Audio.
If i guess correctly you can't afford DAC 2.0 with DHT and asking about other options but DHT is the way to go
Hi dspringham,
Pardon me to chime in. I agreed with Olegausany to go for the DHT Pre module. I, too, have never heard AVC/Tubestage with DAC 2.0 but I chose to go with the DHT Pre with the DAC 1.0 from my AVC/Tubestage and I never looked back. With AVC/Tubestage I was fortunate to have in my possession tubes like the Mullard and Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CCs and I must say that they are outstanding tubes. In comparison (in my listening room), the DHT Pre is in another league. Here are some of the superb qualities the DHT Pre brings: (a) Lifelike music with a wider soundstage and layerings (b) Better dynamics & transients of musical instruments (c) Richest tone in the vocal/midrange. If your budget permits go with the DHT Pre route and you will be rewarded with better openness and flow of music in your system. I hope my two cents' worth will be of help to you. :duh:
-
olegausany and Terence T.,
Thank you for your replies (seems pretty quiet on the Vinnie circles these days).
Sounds like you both have a similar perspective regarding DHT. I did in fact upgrade from AVC/Tube to DHT some time ago and have been considering whether to take the plunge for the DAC 2.0 upgrade. Presently I'm using Vinnie's (Red Wine Audio) Level 3 modified Sony HAP-Z1ES servers/players as analogue source. Sounds wonderful through the LIO line input.
With the DAC 2.0 upgrade, the Sony would be used as a digital server only (USB output). Just wondering if I would gain enough sound quality improvement to justify the upgrade cost.
Regarding LIO with DHT, in some ways I miss the flexibility of being able to go pure passive (AVC only) in the LIO since the Sony-RWA 3 already has Vinnie's high quality battery powered tube output stage (using the same tube variants as the LIO).
As an aside, what tubes are you guys using in your LIO DHT's. I'm currently running the PX4's but have a real hankering to try the Tak 300b's. Hmmmm... DAC 2.0 upgrade versus Tak 300b tube upgrade. Arrrgh... never ends.
Hey Vinnie, what say you!
-
When I first purchased LIO, it came with DAC version 1.0 and its Filters functions are differently with DAC 2.0. I did not realize it does the oversampling by selecting filter 1, until I read a post here.
I am currently using either Audiravana + to oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 764, or Roon + HQ player oversampling to DSD256, and sometimes my MacBook pro crashed during the play.
The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.
Hi Mitch751,
Yes - the filters for LIO DAC 1.0 and DAC 2.0 are very different. Only LIO DAC 2.0 has the "non-oversampling, digital-filterless mode" (my personal favorite, and to me it sounds the most natural and effortless).
If you want to do sample-rate conversion to DSD256, try doing it in Roon (without HQ Player). It works very well and seems to be stable.
This is what I have been doing for a while (I haven't really noticed much difference between converting to DSD512 vs DSD256, so I use DSD256 because it is easier on the computer - as Oleg mentioned above).
The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.
I find for best results, use LIO DAC 2.0 in Filter2 (which is default when you turn ON LIO). This is the non-oversampling, digital-filterless filter mode, and then either play your files at their native resolution, or try Roon sample-rate conversion of all files to DSD256.
Anyone care to venture an opinion on this - which would you think would offer the best overall (by the usual hi-fi parameters) performance?
Assumptions - good USB transport, LIO amp module
1. LIO Dac 1.0 with DHT stage
OR
2. LIO Dac 2.0 with AVC/Tube stage
Hi dspringham,
Number (1) above would be my pick of the two, but if you can do LIO DAC 2.0 + LIO DHT PRE, then you are taking the performance of the current LIO platform to the max.
Thank you for your replies (seems pretty quiet on the Vinnie circles these days).
Hey Vinnie, what say you!
Sorry for not posting here nearly as much as I would like to - I have been as busy as ever. Very exciting things are in the works for 2019!
With the DAC 2.0 upgrade, the Sony would be used as a digital server only (USB output). Just wondering if I would gain enough sound quality improvement to justify the upgrade cost.
The LIO DAC 2.0 leaves the Level 3 modded Sony Z1ES's dac and analog output stage in the dust, especially with its default non-oversampling, digital filterless mode and dual Class A JFET outptu stages. I never tested the USB output of the Z1ES because back then when I was modding them, Sony didn't have the firmware update for this. At that time, the USB jack was only for connecting an external drive.
Have you tried the USB output of the Z1E into the LIO DAC 1.0? How does it sound?
Regarding LIO with DHT, in some ways I miss the flexibility of being able to go pure passive (AVC only) in the LIO since the Sony-RWA 3 already has Vinnie's high quality battery powered tube output stage (using the same tube variants as the LIO).
If you are already using LIO DHT PRE, I would not bother with the Sony's modded 6922 tube output stage.
Hmmmm... DAC 2.0 upgrade versus Tak 300b tube upgrade. Arrrgh... never ends.
LIO DAC 2.0 first (substantial improved over DAC 1.0) - use your Z1ES as a transport, or consider using a computer with Roon instead, and then later try to get a pair of TAK TA300B with a return policy (not sure if partsconnexion offers this), just to make sure they win you over compared to the KR PX4.
BTW - This fall is LIO's 5th year anniversary! 8)
Vinnie
-
Hi dspringham, I can offer another opinion (just to confuse things more :D) from someone who went from avc/tube, to DHT, to DAC 2.0.
In my system, the most significant improvement was found moving to the DAC 2.0. The DHT is a nice improvement and allows you to add spice, but the DAC upgrade improved the clarity, detail and tone while retrieving more information from the source, to my ears, the the difference was not subtle.
BTW; I am currently running the Takatsuki 300bs, they are very nice.
Best,
Ed
-
Hi Ed,
Looks like you just posted a minute after my last post above.
Thanks for chiming in as well!
Vinnie
-
Thank you for your suggestion, I have tried using ROON only oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 768, I do agree with you this is the best option.
-
Hi dspringham,
I'm glad that you're enjoying your DHT Pre. The tubes I have in the my DHT Pre system are a matched pair of Takatsuki 300Bs which really add improved details and realism to the audio frequency spectrum. In fact with the upgrading to the latest DAC 2.0 (Belleson SPZ Type Super Regulator) last month, for me the DAC 2.0 further enhances the openness, individual details & tonal quality of the whole imaginary soundstage and a much lower noise floor.
Terence
-
Sorry for not posting here nearly as much as I would like to - I have been as busy as ever. Very exciting things are in the works for 2019!
Vinnie
Now you got me curious. An improvement to the DAC 2.0?
Steve
-
Thanks for the great replies guys.
It sounds like some of you are already where I would wish to be- Dac 2.0 and Tak 300b's.
Wondering about what you are using for amplification - LIO internal or ??? How about speakers?
-
Now you got me curious. An improvement to the DAC 2.0?
Steve
Something much more substantial :wink:
-
Regarding the fixed low level output on the LIO DHT when DAC is selected, does the signal come from before or after the tube stage? Is it the same for DAC 1 as well as 2.0?
-
Regarding the fixed low level output on the LIO DHT when DAC is selected, does the signal come from before or after the tube stage? Is it the same for DAC 1 as well as 2.0?
Hi dspringham,
The FIXED level RCA outputs of LIO are a direct connection from the source module (the dac or phonostage module) and bypass
the volume control and the DHT PRE stage.
If you want the DHT PRE in the loop for your line-level output, use the VAR (variable) output jacks and set the volume
accordingly (max volume is probably too high, as you would get an additional 6 to 9dB of gain on top of the DAC's 2Vrms output,
so that would be over 4Vrms).
Vinnie
-
Sorry I am a bit confused with the Sonore microRendu / ultraRendu setup, and hope someone can help before to buy one ?
Firstly, instead of connect the Sonore to router, can I connect it to my MacBook Pro via ethernet port instead ?
MBP > ethernet > Sonore > USB > LIO Dac 2
Secondly, does it mean I will control the Roon from my MacBook ? If so, in Roon of MBP, shall I choose Sonore or LIO for the Audio Zone?
Thank you
-
Sorry I am a bit confused with the Sonore microRendu / ultraRendu setup, and hope someone can help before to buy one ?
Firstly, instead of connect the Sonore to router, can I connect it to my MacBook Pro via ethernet port instead ?
MBP > ethernet > Sonore > USB > LIO Dac 2
Secondly, does it mean I will control the Roon from my MacBook ? If so, in Roon of MBP, shall I choose Sonore or LIO for the Audio Zone?
Thank you
Hi Mitch751,
It's been a while since I've used a microRendu, but I seem to recall Sonore not recommending a direct connection. I recommend you contact them to be sure about this.
Regarding Roon, if you install it on your MBP, then you will control your music from your MBP (or via a smartphone / tablet Roon remote app that wirelessly connects to your MBP).
In Roon settings, you will see the Sonore and select it. Sonore's USB output feeds to the LIO DAC 2.0.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Thank you for the reply ... appreciated
-
Finally bought the ultra Rendu plus uptone LPs. The improvement is very very significant , now with LIO Dac 2 is sooooo good. Lost my intention to buy a DCS Rossini.
-
Howdy everyone,
Just popping back in to report that I have received and installed the DAC 2.0 and yes, it's everything that all of you have said it was. No question, a very noticeable improvement over DAC 1. In fact I was trying to keep my expectations tempered after ordering based on the reading of this thread. Am happy to report that my expectations were pleasantly exceeded.
No point repeating all the descriptives previously mentioned here. Bottom line is a huge performance upgrade in the sound of my setup.
By the way Vinnie, you were right about outperforming the RWA Sony HAP-Z1ES Level 3. DAC 2.0 is clearly superior. The great thing about it is that the Sony now works beautifully as a server via USB.
Also, TAK's are on the way for LIO DHT (currently using PX 4's).
Thanks to everyone for their comments and opinions.
Cheers,
Dave
-
Hi Mitch751,
No need for the Rossini when you have a Rossi :lol:
Thank you
Hi dspringham,
Thanks for posting, and I'm glad to hear that you can still use your modded Sony as a USB transport to the LIO DAC 2.0.
And let us know after you put some time on the TAK TA-300Bs.
Cheers,
Vinnie
-
Apologies for what might be a dumb question, but I just got back from a business trip and am trying to play my LIO through my Windows desktop at work via USB as I have normally done and it seems my machine did an automatic update while I was away and is now saying under "Audio" in Settings "LIO DAC 2.0 Driver is unavailable". Does anyone have a trouble-shooting idea for me?
Thanks,
Will
-
Hi Will,
You might need to reinstall the LIO DAC 2.0 driver. Email directly if you need it again (and I promise not to make
any Mac vs PC jokes :green:).
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Hi Vinnie
From the opening post:
"About LIO DAC 2.0’s USB isolation, buffer, and reclock circuit
The LIO DAC 2.0 USB input first goes through a galvanic isolation stage, and the USB 5V bus is only used as a 'signal' (not as a power source) to turn ON our "LIO power" to power the USB input section."
Got a question about the incoming 5v from the USB cable - does it have to be a minimum of 5v to turn on LIO power to power the USB input section or can it be a lower voltage (from the USB cable), say 3.3v?
Thanks
-
Hi Vinnie
From the opening post:
"About LIO DAC 2.0’s USB isolation, buffer, and reclock circuit
The LIO DAC 2.0 USB input first goes through a galvanic isolation stage, and the USB 5V bus is only used as a 'signal' (not as a power source) to turn ON our "LIO power" to power the USB input section."
Got a question about the incoming 5v from the USB cable - does it have to be a minimum of 5v to turn on LIO power to power the USB input section or can it be a lower voltage (from the USB cable), say 3.3v?
Thanks
Hi TimS,
It needs to be 5V, and from a USB 2.0 compliant cable.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Thanks Vinnie.
Hi TimS,
It needs to be 5V, and from a USB 2.0 compliant cable.
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Thoroughly enjoying my day 2.0 tonight after a rough week, still the best money I have spent on audio.
Best,
Ed
-
Thoroughly enjoying my day 2.0 tonight after a rough week, still the best money I have spent on audio.
Best,
Ed
After many, many RMAF shows I can say with certainty that Vinnie truly knows WTF he is doing re: best-in-the-world sound quality.
-
Hi Ed and Tyson,
Thank you both for your kind words! :bowdown:
Vinnie
-
Wonder if this was my same issue. Good the recommended usb cable and will update you.
-
Hi I just bought a 2 y.o. Lio from one of the members here, can't wait to receive it, and signed up for Audio Circle to be able to participate in the Vinnie Rossi discussion. My question concerns upgrading to the Lio's DAC to DAC2, and fyi I wrote the same Vinnie Rossi directly. Is this only done through the manufacturer? What is the value of trading in the original Dac to purchase the 2? And is there a trade in 2nd hand DAC2s? Re. the last, I don't see any for sale here or on the usual sites but though I would ask the community. Thank you very much for your thoughts!
-
you can install the DAC 2 yourself. Whether Vinnie is accepting any Dac 1's as trade in is doubtful. There was a promotion/trade in allowance back when the Dac 2 was introduced. doesn't hurt to ask.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvvzpXeKVA4
-
Hi I just bought a 2 y.o. Lio from one of the members here, can't wait to receive it, and signed up for Audio Circle to be able to participate in the Vinnie Rossi discussion. My question concerns upgrading to the Lio's DAC to DAC2, and fyi I wrote the same Vinnie Rossi directly. Is this only done through the manufacturer? What is the value of trading in the original Dac to purchase the 2? And is there a trade in 2nd hand DAC2s? Re. the last, I don't see any for sale here or on the usual sites but though I would ask the community. Thank you very much for your thoughts!
Hi Robert,
Welcome to the VR Forum!
I responded to your email... please check it and feel free to respond to it if you have additional questions.
This forum is not for positing "for sale" ads (there is a Marketplace section on audio circle for that),
nor is it for "troubleshooting" posts (please email me directly if you need support).
I usually respond within 24 hours, but right now I am currently moving into a larger production facility, so
I might be a tad slower to respond. :wink:
Best regards,
Vinnie
-
Thank you Vinnie, just seeing this message now. Thanks too for your generous offline help