[lo mein]

Is it worth the outrageously expensive costs to own a 'brand name' electric guitar?

Is the costs justifiable?

BTW. I am not a newbie.

I mean, mainly the extra costs for fancier wood, decoration, and a 'designer lable'?

Wood is not that important at all, with your basic electric guitars. As long as the basic wood is of decent enough quality. Since the sounds are coming out from the electronics, the strings, and the fingers, basically.

"A  good guitar cannot make a bad player sounds good. But a good player can make any guitar sounds fantastic."

A good amp is more important. IMO.

For example: There're lots of arguementS, even between Fender-USA vs Fender MIM, VS. Squier. ALL are real Fenders. The main difference is Fender-USA is made by Mexicans working in the US, and the Fender MIM are made by Mexicans working in Mexico. Both facilities are built by Fender. And Squiers are mainly made in Asia and some in Latin-America.

A few recent Squiers are at least exceeded the MIM, and are on par with the USA.

Even the 'MADE IN USA' labels on the Fender-USAs are put on by Mexicans!

The basic parts are from basically the same suppliers.

Yes, the pots and pups are little different. Fender-USA uses Alinco magnets, and MIM uses creamic magnets. But which sounds better is a personal taste/decision.

The Fender-MIMs are about half, or less than what the Fender-USA costs. And you can even buy and install the Fender-USA parts into a Fender MIM, and still save a couple of bills.

Even more with Squier, or still even more saving with overseas imports.

Don't forget. Both Frender, Gibson, amongst many other high-end guitars are officially made overseas too.

Many are made here with parts supplied from overseas as well.

Same with Gibson/Epiphones/Kramer.etc. All three are owned by Gibson.

I am not talking about modeling guitars, like the Line 6, or Parker here.

Just your basic Fender Strats, Teles, Gibson Les Paul, PRS,etc.

Even the sound quality of fancier factory installed, or boutique electronics, are totally subjective, and personal.

In other word. There is no real standard for comparision.  

For acoustic guitars, or other acoustic musical instruments, yes, wood is almost everything.

I've several elec. guitars by Fender and Gibson.  But I also have some recently imported, inexpensive, but very high quality clones, at 10% to 20% of the costs.

And some clones actually look better, play better, and sound very much alkie. And have a much better warranty to boot. (Some even offer life time warranty.)

Some clones have actually had improved on the original designs, that they were cloned on.


Guess what? I prefer the inexpensive clones over the expensive original!

I have since sold a couple of the original expensive ones. And keeping the clones.

Same with the aftermarket pups that I've tried. I ended up reinstalling the stock pups.

And I'm not a brand name worshipper either.

IMO. The brand names should pay the consumers to advertise their products. Not the other way around.

Nobody gets free magazine space, tv/radio times anyway. Right?

Any other here feels this way?

Alex

[Hantra]

I see your point man.  As far as electric guitars go, the pricing has gotten out of hand!  

OTOH, if you look at the price of Martins, they have actually NOT kept up with inflation.  I think that's amazing!  It takes a hell of a lot more to build a Martin, than to throw together a Strat, or a Les Paul.  All due respect to Gibson.  I know it takes a lot to make a Les Paul, but they're still overpriced. . .

B

[lo mein]

I see your point man.  As far as electric guitars go, the pricing has gotten out of hand!  

OTOH, if you look at the price of Martins, they have actually NOT kept up with inflation.  I think that's amazing!  It takes a hell of a lot more to build a Martin, than to throw together a Strat, or a Les Paul.  All due respect to Gibson.  I know it takes a lot to make a Les Paul, but they're still overpriced. . .

B

My rant is mainly focused on the solid body electric guitars.

For the good acoustic, I know it takes lots of work, time, REAL craftpersons to make one. Since the wood selection, quality, and processing mean everything to the end result.

For the electric guitars. It doesn't make much differences at all, whether you use plywood, or the highest quality ash, alder, maple, ebony,  mahogany, etc.  The diff. is about 5% at best. I know. I've both.

A $4-$5 set of strings make a lot more tonal differences than the wood choices.

As for basic factory set-up, intonation, etc. It's a moot point, except for the newbies.  Since action set up, and intonation are completely dependent on the player's style , techniques, and strings' choices.

Nobody can set up to exactly the way you play, but yourself.  

Besides, action set up and intonation are pretty easy and simple to do.

I can understand the high costs of acoustic, or hollow/semi-hollow electric, like the Gretch, Gibson Casino, etc.. I also have a steel strings and a spanish classical nylon stringed acoustic.

But solid body electrics are pretty much all machine CNCed. So are the other parts , pups etc. Even assembling and the wiring are simple.

What's really rediculous are the new relics -- making new guitars look old and used, by banging them up basically, and sell them for a primium.

Paying a higher prices for basically DAMAGED goods.

Go figure!?

BTW. I think Taylor is a better buy than Martin.


Alex

[Hantra]

I think Taylor is a better buy than Martin.

Blasphemy!  

A better buy maybe in terms of PRICE.  But that's it.  And not that much better price-wise.  They just don't have the tone man.  It's not there.  They went through this thing last year where they wanted to revoice all their dreadnaughts. . .  To get more tone. .   So, in other words, they wanted them to sound more like a Martin. . .

I, for one, would like Taylors if they had the tone of a Martin, and the Taylor clarity in one package. . .  But for now, I am a Martin man. .

Nevertheless, the Damaged goods trend also applies to furniture nowadays.  I live in the furniture capital of the world, and I know lots of people in the biz.  They get paid to beat the hell out of a nice piece of FINISHED cherry. . . WTF!

B

[lo mein]

Blasphem

I, for one, would like Taylors if they had the tone of a Martin, and the Taylor clarity in one package. . .  But for now, I am a Martin man. .

Ne ...

Like I have said. Tone is totally subjective.

The Taylor is not a Martin, but sounds just fine nontheless. And record superbly.

Plus, many are using eq and sound shapening effects with acoustic nowadays. So. What's the different?

Besides. Music will be boring, if everything sounds the same. No?

To me, each instrument should have their own distint sound of their own. Otherwise, it makes no sense to have extra guitars.

Each of my guitar is for a totally different sound, and / or a totally different tuning.

BTW. Have you test drive the funky alluminum Martin?

Alex

[Hantra]

Hehehe  You have been reading Dan Crary I see. . .

It is so true that a Taylor PLUGGED IN can beat the hell out of a Martin.

That's b/c it's dry.  When I am in my house playing, there is nothing like the Martin.  Or on the back deck. . the tone carries through the neighborhood. . .


I don't even wanna play an aluminum axe.  hehe  I tried the Rainsongs. . .They have this sound that is just NOT natural.  I am sticking with good wood. . .

B

[lo mein]

Hehehe  You have been reading Dan Crary I see. . .

It is so true that a Taylor PLUGGED IN can beat the hell out of a Martin.

That's b/c it's dry.  When I am in my house playing, there is nothing like the Martin.  Or on the back deck. . the tone carries through the neighborhood. . .


I don't even wanna play an aluminum axe.  hehe  I tried the Rainsongs. . .They have this sound that is just NOT natural.  I am sticking with good wood. . .

B

Who is Dan Crary?  btw.

Is that where my quote came from?

I read it from some forums on the net sometimes ago.

Shitz. Give Hendrix any axe, and he could still blow everybody out to outer space!

IIRC from what I have read in a Brit's guitar mag.One time, Hendrix was jamming in a club in London,  EC was there. He just took a right handed guitar, WITHOUT re-stringing the strings, and just turned it around, and played everything correctly BACKWARD with his left hand!

Scared the shits out of EC!

Try that.

Ask Eric Clapton, Pete Townshen, the Jefferson Airplanes about how they felt about Hrendrix sharing the same stage.

I've seen many bad players with very expensive axes. What a waste.

Many true legends used nothing but the most simple, basic, even crude, and cheap guitars, at least until they became world famous.

The first "guitar" Mud River played on, was just strings/thin ropes he  nailed to his door frame! According to his boardcasted life story.

Heck, even his signature model is not expensive, by comparision.

Yeah, Signature models... Do people really believe by buying a signature model, will turn them into their guitar heros???

I wouldn't buy a Richie Blackmore signature model for sure. With that extra weighted body (not that bad, since I also have the j-bass, and a Paul), extra chunky neck, plus all the scallopping cuts on the fretboard!

My observation of the Martin vs Taylor is from watching live concerts, and in the studios.

I have been going to live concerts almost every week lately.

Heck. I always wanted a Martin too. But never got one.

Yes. I'd agree sticking with good wood for acoustics though.

Yes, and nothing can beat the tone of a good nylon stringed true spanish classical acoustic. No modeling guitar can reproduce that voice.

BTW. 'Dry' sounding guitars are better for recording. In fact, an advantage.

BTW. The alloy Martin is not bad at all. Not quite woody sounding, but very interesting.

Can fool a newbie for sure.

Alex

[Hantra]

Hey dude. . .

You need to go out and get some Dan Crary.  Order it offline if you have to.  His newest one called "Synergia" with Beppe Gambetta is one of the best guitar albums on the planet.  It's live, has great sound quality, and just like the name implies, these two have as much synergy as Doc and Merle.  Simply a fantastic recording!

anyhow, Dan makes that point on his site.  that all guitars now go through processing, etc, so it doesn't matter whether it sounds good unplugged or not.  Dan has his sig model Taylor which is an extra few inches longer.  His arms drag the ground.  hehe  

Beppe also plays a Taylor, and I can tell you. . .From 3 feet away, there is nothing like it.  

I am CONVINCED that the player makes the axe.  NOT the other way around.  

Listen to track 19 from the Pizza Tapes.  After the song is over, Dave Grisman puts in a filler late in the track. . .   It is Tony handing his Martin to Jerry to try out.  When Jerry starts playing, IMMEDIATELY, you can tell it's Jerry, and not Tony.  80% of the sound OR MORE is the player. . .

B

[mojoman]

Hey dude. . .

You need to go out and get some Dan Crary.  Order it offline if you have to.  His newest one called "Synergia" with Beppe Gambetta is one of the best guitar albums on the planet.  ..

I've got to get this one.  I have one Dan Crary cd called Guitar that has Mark O'Connor, Bela Fleck and Sam Bush playing. It's amazing!  A couple of years ago I went to a work shop at a local music store with Beppe Gambetta and he just blew me away.  I could play 8 hours a day for 10 years and never play some of the stuff he did that day.  

Thanks Hantra,  I'm going to start looking for this one.

[Hantra]

Both Dan, and Beppe put on those Taylor clinics from time to time.  I think Beppe may be the absolute fastest flatpicker alive.  I don't like him bettre than Tony Rice, or anything, but they are just different.  Tony has such a sweet, melodious jazz flair to his bluegrass picking.  He is so fast, and clean, but at the same time, he gets this tone that has no equal.  It is a strong tone, and even stronger than Clarence.  

Anyhow, I am getting off topic.  Beppe does this amazingly fast Black Mountain Rag on this disc.  He and Dan have an amazing synergy, and if EVER you get the chance to see them together, DO IT.  I saw them at a small church with about 30 people in attendance.  Beppe walks out into the crowd playing Nova Gelousia, and I thought I was going to crap myself.  He was like 2 feet away.  I was on the front row.  Beppe is so strng when he plays. I watched him break a string, and in 30 seconds, he was playing again.  That was impressive.  Dan joked about how he always steals the show with that.  hahhaa

Go to www.dancrary.com, or www.thunderation.com. . .  You can get Synergia there.  Might I also suggest you pick up Beppe's new one.  It's called Blu di Genova.  It's his magnum opus for sure.  Amazing piece of work!

L8r,

B

[DaveM]

I do agree that the player does make the difference.  But I don't believe a plywood electric will sound the same as a solid wood piece.   I do think other woods tend to add more sustain than others.  I'd even go to say that certain woods will also add a bit of brightness as well.  Even with acoustics, a more stiff or thick piece of wood will produce a different sound than a more pliable or thin piece of wood.  I think the same is true for solid bodies.  Maybe not to the same degree of an acoustic, but it is there.

It's a matter of how well the player can make the wood sing which is important.  I've had guitars that I thought were terrible until someone else played them.  Then I figured out that I need to keep running scales and strengthening up my fingers.  It's helped tremendously.

[Hantra]

Dave:

I agree man.  I think that wood does make a difference on electrics.  I can't speak of this with much experience, b/c I don't own any electrics.  But I have talked to guys who build electrics, and they say that there are different overtones depending on the type of wood you use.

That strengthening the fingers thing is important, and it's also difficult!

B

[lo mein]

I do agree that the player does make the difference.  But I don't believe a plywood electric will sound the same as a solid wood piece.   I do think other woods tend to add more sustain than others.  I'd even go to say that certain woods will also add a bit of brightness as well.  Even with acoustics, a more stiff or thick piece of wood will produce a different sound than a more pliable or thin piece of wood.  I think the same is true for solid bodies.  Maybe not to the same degree of an acoustic, but it is ...

I shouldn't have said no different. I should have said VERY LITTLE difference. 5% maybe... Nothing a twist on the tone knobs, or fingering technique cannot solve, especially when most of the music are played/recording with sound shapening effects.

A good set of pups, strings, and most important - a better set of fingers can do more good, for much less costs.

Tone is not everything. You can have a guitar that gives the best tone in the world, but with loudsy pups, strings, fingers, is going to sound bad, regardless of what material the guitar is constructed with, or the brand name, or costs.


I have both pre-CBS Fenders, real Gibbys, Teles, Strats, fretted and fretless j-basses, p-bass, Paul, SG, and inexpensive clones - all electrics I'm talking about here. Yes acoustics need the best wood that you can find.

I have sold a couple of the real (expensive) originals, and keeping the clones, after comparing them side by side for over a couple of months.

The diff. in costs are not justifiable. IMO.

BTW. In a recent issue of Guitar mag, from the U.K. John Mayell was playing a cheapy chopped down Bullet!

Alex

[mcm7]

Ask Eric Clapton, Pete Townshen, the Jefferson Airplanes about how they felt about Hrendrix sharing the same stage.

Yeah, but when Hendrix needed his guitar tuned, he turned to Clapton.  

[jqp]

Both Dan, and Beppe put on those Taylor clinics from time to time.  I think Beppe may be the absolute fastest flatpicker alive.  I don't like him bettre than Tony Rice, or anything, but they are just different.  Tony has such a sweet, melodious jazz flair to his bluegrass picking.  He is so fast, and clean, but at the same time, he gets this tone that has no equal.  It is a strong tone, and even stronger than Clarence.  

Anyhow, I am getting off topic.  Beppe does this amazingly fast Black Mountain Rag o ...

I have been looking for Dan Crary CDs for the last year and a half at Borders and Repo Records. I guess you have to get them from him or Sugar Hill off the web.

I will definiely have to get CDs from these two. Hantra let me know if they are playing in NC!

BTW, change your syle to "Chronicles" and read this topic!