AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GIK Acoustics => Topic started by: EVOLVIST on 14 May 2017, 06:46 am
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Reading around, doing searches, looking at the GIK site, there are no treatments for windows other than putting big pads on them and/or curtains up? My windows are on my front wall, basically making up the front wall, and they have blinds on them. So, they don't act like the plaster walls and ceiling in my cozy 12x12x8 room, with nothing in it save for a listening chair.
But perhaps I'm missing something here. Perhaps some curtains work better than others?
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Curtains are not going to do much as they are generally thin and only absorb upper frequencies. Most of our customers use one of our panels or diffusors in front of their windows, but who knows what we might come up with in the future. :thumb:
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Floyd Toole suggests heavy velour curtains draped to 50% of their width in his book Sound Reproduction, and he provides some absorption data there. I also noted this site: http://acousticsfreq.com/sound-control-acoustic-curtain/
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Compare the absorbency figures for the curtains at the bottom of youngho's link with that for a GIK 244 panel:
http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/)
I use such panels, on feet, in front of my window.
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Floyd Toole suggests heavy velour curtains draped to 50% of their width in his book Sound Reproduction, and he provides some absorption data there. I also noted this site: http://acousticsfreq.com/sound-control-acoustic-curtain/
This is really great. Thank you. Of course the front wall of my listening room with look like part of a friggin' funeral home, but hey, what the hell. :)
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Compare the absorbency figures for the curtains at the bottom of youngho's link with that for a GIK 244 panel:
http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/)
I use such panels, on feet, in front of my window.
But now we're talking about something that is probably going to be unsightly, and defeating the purpose of having a window when you're not listening. You would have to move these things around, behind the speakers to let the sun in, and then move them back into place.
It's really shocking that after all of these years there's not a solution besides drapes or large pads (and the drapes might not work that well). Hmmmm...
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I have adjustable (wood?) slats that go over my windows. I can put them up to the top to get rid of them from the view completely, but when I drop them down they act as nice diffusers but still let it a lot of light and still let me have a nice view.
Next thing I am doing - roman shades made with cotton/linen and also given a blackout/thermal lining. These go above the window and I can pull them completely out of the way when not listening, or I can drop them down and they will be nice thick/heavy absorbers when I need them. It's nice because doing these things keeps my view of the outside available when I want it (most of the time), and can but adjusted downward when needed for serious listening.
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If your only option is drapes, consider starting by getting the drapes lined with blackout fabric. If the drapes are an essential decorative component, you can also run two or more sets of drapes across a window in parallel.
Check out the Ikea Vigda system which is discreet, attractive, offers wall and ceiling mount options. http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20299155/
Between all those layers you can probably increase the absorption quite a bit without totally sacrificing room aesthetics.
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Compare the absorbency figures for the curtains at the bottom of youngho's link with that for a GIK 244 panel:
http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ (http://gikacoustics.co.uk/product/gik-acoustics-244-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/)
I use such panels, on feet, in front of my window.
Most customers do this. Not that heavy curtains can not help but judging from those numbers I would not use them. Way too much absorption on the upper frequencies with very little below 1k. The point is to have your room with good balance so you have even decay times across the spetrum. Personally I would leave the window blank if the curtain worked only above 1k.
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It's really shocking that after all of these years there's not a solution besides drapes or large pads (and the drapes might not work that well). Hmmmm...
Great!!!!!!!! Now I am taking that as challenge!!! :duh: :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :thumb:
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Great!!!!!!!! Now I am taking that as challenge!!! :duh: :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :thumb:
Maybe acoustic treatments that can top-mount and roll up or down like wicker shades or something like that.
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This is really great. Thank you. Of course the front wall of my listening room with look like part of a friggin' funeral home, but hey, what the hell. :)
I think it's possible to choose products and colors that aren't too gloomy. Check out the second and third picture here, for example: https://www.halfpricedrapes.com/vintage-cotton-velvet-curtains.html
You could also use double- or triple-cell cellular shades as an alternative or even in addition to the curtains, though I don't know about absorption data.
One thing to keep in mind about glass is that it does seem to reflect high frequencies more than low frequencies, so you may lose some bass out the window.
RPG used to offer a virtually transparent microperforated glass-type product that provided acoustic absorption. I don't know what has happened to the US site, but you can see it described here: http://www.rpgeurope.com/products/product/foil.html and more data here: http://www.candyacoustics.ch/default/assets/File/De-Amp-Clearsorber-datasheet.pdf
I'm sorry that I can't provide a perfect absorption suggestion for you, but I was trying to provide a reasonably informative answer to your original question.
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One thing to keep in mind about glass is that it does seem to reflect high frequencies more than low frequencies, so you may lose some bass out the window.
https://www.acousticalsurfaces.com/acoustic_IOI/101_13.htm
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Thanks for all of the comments, y'all. Thanks for GIK being great at what they do.
Just for giggles (not for this thread), I drew out my 12x12x8 listening room. I should have made it more in line with the grid. Quick and dirty.
(http://i.imgur.com/PC8LyVX.jpg)
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It's really shocking that after all of these years there's not a solution besides drapes or large pads (and the drapes might not work that well). Hmmmm...
Open all the windows so you don't have those reflective surfaces there anymore...
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Open all the windows so you don't have those reflective surfaces there anymore...
Groovy. My neighbors will be pleased with this solution at 11pm. :)
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Well it's not like you can expect us to violate the laws of physics or anything. Radiant sound energy must be absorbed or diffused. For the most part, that requires a physical object of some sort. You can't just make it magically disappear.
On the other hand, the sideways solution to this is to not have that radiant energy in the first place. There are only a handful of speakers that can do this... the ones that come to mind are the Kii Three and several Geithain models which all produce cardioid patterns (so I guess it does sorta magically disappear in this regard).
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Well it's not like you can expect us to violate the laws of physics or anything. Radiant sound energy must be absorbed or diffused. For the most part, that requires a physical object of some sort. You can't just make it magically disappear.
Heh. It's just that no company that I can tell - at least from a very specific design that correlates to an advertised product - has come up with a solutuon for windows other than, take this block made for a wall and stick it in front of your windows. It's not like we're talking about a niche subset of audiophile who like sound but not sunlight. Windows are a part of nearly every home.
So, the laws of physics say one thing, but one doesn't need to throw an apple in the air and watch it fall to acknowledge a solution is in order that appeals to everyone who doesn't live in an air raid shelter. I mean, they used to have windows on caskets for chrissakes! So, do I have to wait for the afterlife to get diffusing/absorbing blinds? :)
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One could make the window treatment like shutters, put 244 type panels (custom size of course) with hinges and have the two panels meet in the center of the window.
Then you can just open them when you want to let the light in and close them when you want to listen.
They may not be able to be as thick for them to open properly but even thinner panels should be much better than drapes.
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One could make the window treatment like shutters, put 244 type panels (custom size of course) with hinges and have the two panels meet in the center of the window.
Then you can just open them when you want to let the light in and close them when you want to listen.
They may not be able to be as thick for them to open properly but even thinner panels should be much better than drapes.
This could be a really cool idea, but you have to be careful about the quality of your windows. I had 244s in front of windows, and they started to form condensation on the inside. I lost six panels to mildew and mold, it grew so quickly. I have yet to replace them, although I think I am going to use some of those free standing Alpha panels.
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Clearsorber would be a very good product for what you're seeking, though I don't know about current availability in the US. I know that the Walters-Storyk Design Group has used it in studio projects, even in a pool house! https://wsdg.com/projects-items/morro-do-chapeu-residence/.
One product I just ran across that you might also consider are translucent acoustical curtains https://www.empa.ch/web/s604/curtains-that-quench-noise, available through Wolf Gordon: http://www.wolfgordon.com/print/content/14258/carmen-carm-902ad.pdf?q=gnum%3D%26category%3Ddrapery is a non-gloomy option. Obviously, this is a compromise, but perhaps worth the trade-off for light transmission...
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The issue of budget is relevant here.
Not all windows are created equal. Hard wood frames, heavy laminated glass, double and triple Pane etc.
smaller panels and shaped trim for diffusion. The options are only limited by budget.
That said, heavy insulated velour curtains with vinyl blackout backs really warm up the room. You might like them and they are not crazy expensive.
Plantation Shutters can be a help too. Provided they are tight and don't rattle. The Faux wood versions are surprisingly well damped and they provide a bit of diffusion.
Some ideas anyway.
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This thread is getting really great!
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I have dipole speakers, and 3 windows across the front wall. I had medium weight drapes that were recently replaced by 3 GIK polyfusors.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/evolution-polyfusor-diffusor-absorber-bass-trap/
There was a great improvement in image stability and width. I need to attach material to the backs of the diffusors. From the outside it looks like my windows are boarded up.
Ryan
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...You could also use double- or triple-cell cellular shades as an alternative or even in addition to the curtains, though I don't know about absorption data...
I have windows on one sidewall, and do double cellular blinds there (innies and outies). But at the point of reflection, still use a floor absorber.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/540/K3fFQH.jpg (http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/540/K3fFQH.jpg)
Did the OP say what kind of speakers he had, do they even output any energy from the back?
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I have windows on one sidewall, and do double cellular blinds there (innies and outies). But at the point of reflection, still use a floor absorber.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/540/K3fFQH.jpg (http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/540/K3fFQH.jpg)
Did the OP say what kind of speakers he had, do they even output any energy from the back?
Actually, my new speakers aren't in yet, but I'm getting Audio Physic Avanti 30th Anniversary speakers. There is energy, though they can be moved about 2ft from the front wall, so that's a bit better than most.
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Some good ideas here. Windows are a challenge to treat for sure, because you can't really mount anything to them. Also, materials that are good at absorption tend to not be very flexible, so roll-up type solutions are a challenge.
Usually the best solution (in terms of performance) is to use panels on stands in front of the window. If that's not acceptable aesthetically, then use some nice thick, gathered curtains to get as many highs as you can, and make sure you have good bass trapping elsewhere in the room (perhaps in the ceiling and/or floor corners above & below the window?).
Also, keep in mind that in terms of high frequencies, the front wall behind the speakers is the least important of the 4 walls to treat.
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Thanks for all of the comments, y'all. Thanks for GIK being great at what they do.
Just for giggles (not for this thread), I drew out my 12x12x8 listening room. I should have made it more in line with the grid. Quick and dirty.
(http://i.imgur.com/PC8LyVX.jpg)
My situation is very similar to yours. I am using drapes, but there is also a 55" TV in front of the center window.
When I listen to the music I push the TV all the way back to the window and use two rather thick blankets, fold each of them and put one on top of the other to cover the TV.
Usually TV between the speakers is no, no, but in my case it actually helps. :)
The other thing is, my chair is rather close to the speakers, I listen in near filed.
You should push that sofa two blocks ahead and toe in the speakers (if the configuration and speakers permit). You will get less room, and more music.
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My speakers each have a set of rear firing tweeters. I put a Polyfusor on all three window sills.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=160753)
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How about vertical panels suspended from the ceiling from a track or rail so that they could be pulled to the side uncovering the windows when not listening?
It would also allow for fine adjusting/tuning.
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How about vertical panels suspended from the ceiling from a track or rail so that they could be pulled to the side uncovering the windows when not listening?
It would also allow for fine adjusting/tuning.
That would be cool, maybe on a barn door type track on the wall.
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I'm not quite clear what you want, Evolvist.
Could you write a specification?
Do you for example want to keep the windows clear when listening? Or, do you want something in front of it when listening that can be easily moved and stored when not required - more easily moved and stored then a panel on feet, such as a curtain, blinds, or something on rails?
And then, what sound problems are you trying to deal with? A frequency range, say.
For me I see nothing wrong with moving panels on feet. They are not heavy, but perhaps they could be put on castors or rollers. Of course there needs to be a place to store them when not in use, but that applies to any product.