AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Home Improvements and Renovations => Topic started by: drphoto on 27 Jul 2016, 08:40 pm
-
Last year some idiot stole my air conditioner compressor and homeowners would not cover. I was think instead of just putting compressor on roof, why not go with one of the modern self contained units? I could run duct myself and save a bit. Then I could keep existing furnace which works fine.
Any ideas on cost? building is about 2500 sq feet. Would take 5 ton unit for regular AC, but these are more efficient.
-
When I lived in the Mid West (Kansas) you had to get a AC rider due to hail damage. IF you put it on the roof it will be the least efficient (last time I was looking) compared to a shaded spot. It's also about the free flowing air around it. I ended up with a planting and fence to shade it and keep the south west hail off it.
My $.02
Alan
-
you have a point about unit being in sun. I'd put of shadier side of roof. The reason I say more efficient is cold air sinks. Better idea, as least in theory, than producing cold air down low an pushing up through ducting.
Insurance companies suck. I don't even want to think about what I pay for healthcare. Let's just say monthly is more than car.......With a huge deductable.
-
Where are you located? In southern Michigan we have a 3 ton unit serving a reasonably well insulated 2200 s.f. (plus finished basement) house. One ton = 12,000 Btu. For most of the country the furnace is sized for roughly 3 times the central air. Accordingly our house has a 3 ton (36,000 Btu) air conditioning unit and a 90,000 Btu furnace.
In high crime neighborhoods I've seen heavy/locked cages installed around all the roof top units.
-
You would be looking $1200 to $1400 per ton for an RTU (Roof Top Unit). You've got one major issue that will preclude you from doing an RTU on residential construction....weight. Your typical home's roof isn't designed to carry north of 600 pounds of live load. Next up, you'll have to rent a crane to set the curb (1st) and the unit (2nd). You'll have to get 80 to 100 amps of electrical up there along with natural gas. That 5 ton unit is only 13 SEER with a single stage of cooling. That alone will eat you out of house and home.
Your best bet is to reinstall a condensing unit and then install a chain link fence, with a chain link cover over it. You can always install a variety of chain link fence covers if you don't like that 'raw' look....or you could just install it with some good old fashion electrified cattle fencing.
-
Thanks Scott. Yeah, I was thinking weight would be the issue. Rafter in this place are on 24" center, which makes it worse. I figured I'd have to cut out roof decking and reenforce structure.
Most of the neighbors have regular compressors on roof, and run freon line inside.
I knew I'd have to run electric line. Why gas? (for self contained) There's no heat in one's I'm thinking about.
-
Oops, I misread your original post. My gas reference would be if you had a total self contained air conditioning unit (including he furnace and blower sections) on the roof.
You could put the condensing unit up there but as you mentioned, you'll have to do a lot of reinforcing of the roof.
Might be best (and cheaper) if you do some kind of secured enclosure around the condensing unit on the ground. Its tough to stop thieves once they get their sights set on a target. Worst part about all of it, there can't be more than $30 bucks in copper in those coils.
-
Would be best to considering moving from such a neighborhood. A heavy gage (or mean dog) could be a solution too.
In now infamous Flint Michigan the thieves have long ago moved from stealing wiring at of abandoned houses to stealing the aluminum siding off of occupied houses.
But seriously, have you considered using multiple mini-split systems? By each serving one room/area of the house you can gain significant energy savings and avoid your roof load issue. And they can be mounted on the exterior wall to make theft harder plus with less copper per unit less attractive to steal.
-
Would be best to considering moving from such a neighborhood. A heavy gage (or mean dog) could be a solution too.
In now infamous Flint Michigan the thieves have long ago moved from stealing wiring at of abandoned houses to stealing the aluminum siding off of occupied houses.
But seriously, have you considered using multiple mini-split systems? By each serving one room/area of the house you can gain significant energy savings and avoid your roof load issue. And they can be mounted on the exterior wall to make theft harder plus with less copper per unit less attractive to steal.
I work for Mitsubishi in their commercial division. Mini splits hit all the points that you mention, but are very expensive. You could do the house w/ 1 outdoor unit and multiple indoor fan coils. These are also all heat pump units so the furnace will no longer be needed. The compressor is inverter driven so it carefully matches the load of the building, either w/ sub cooled liquid refrigerant for cooling or super heated gas for heating.
-
VRV/VRF rocks! I've got north of 5000 tons designed and installed in commercial buildings to date. It is my go-to for any building owner who wants to replace their HVAC system. North of 20 SEER, heats well in any climate (providing you size the system for heat as basis of design). Variable speed fans, compressors, refrigerant, no issues with dehumidifying....ever. Killer system and significantly cheaper that ground source.
-
Yeah, I figured they got maybe $5 bucks worth of scrap. Hell, I'd just have soon paid shakedown money, like business owners in big cities do to the mob.
I guess I'l get a consult on this. I could reenforce roof my self. I have to patch some bad roof decking near the ridge line anyway, do to poor roof vent install by previous owner. It's not hard. More pain in the ass than anything. I might even re shingle it my self. Again, not hard if I can rent a conveyer to get bundles up. Really the trick is getting first course on straight.
Wouldn't be hard to run electric cable, & I might be able to put in duct too. This is an open floor plan loft type building, so open ducting is ok. Actually can look cool.
cheers.
-
Yeah, I figured they got maybe $5 bucks worth of scrap. Hell, I'd just have soon paid shakedown money, like business owners in big cities do to the mob.
I guess I'l get a consult on this. I could reenforce roof my self. I have to patch some bad roof decking near the ridge line anyway, do to poor roof vent install by previous owner. It's not hard. More pain in the ass than anything. I might even re shingle it my self. Again, not hard if I can rent a conveyer to get bundles up. Really the trick is getting first course on straight.
Wouldn't be hard to run electric cable, & I might be able to put in duct too. This is an open floor plan loft type building, so open ducting is ok. Actually can look cool.
cheers.
Don't want to be a Debbie Downer here, but anytime you deal w/ refrigerant you need an EPA license. Where would you deal w/ refrigerant in your scenario? Anytime you may need to adjust your charge. Just an FYI - everybody have a great weekend -
-
VRV/VRF rocks! I've got north of 5000 tons designed and installed in commercial buildings to date. It is my go-to for any building owner who wants to replace their HVAC system. North of 20 SEER, heats well in any climate (providing you size the system for heat as basis of design). Variable speed fans, compressors, refrigerant, no issues with dehumidifying....ever. Killer system and significantly cheaper that ground source.
VRF is the future of HVAC for North America. I left a 14 year with Carrier selling chillers and their associated equipment and controls 3 years ago for Mitsubishi.
Since I entered the VRF industry, total market share of the commercial HVAC market has increased from 4% - 6% which is incredible growth!
-
Here's a thought. Remember the chain link fence I mentioned? Here are the basic parts for one...bare with me, I'm headed somewhere...promise
(http://www.pacificfencewholesale.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/chain-link-fence-components-diagram.jpg)
So, take and install four fence posts in concrete (five actually as you'll need a gate but forget about the gate for this concept). Now, rather than installing the actual fence with the Tension Bands, take and install a series of horizontal bars using more fence post piping (Rails). You would install the Brace Band and Rail Ends. Space them at about 12" on center horizontally on all sides and across the top. This effectively creates a jail cell for your condensing unit. It also gives plenty of room for it to breathe and it needs breathing room.
After you get it installed, I'd purposely gum up the threads on the bolts so the theavin' little turds can't just disassemble the cage. Also, you'll have to cut the rail piping a bit long so they can't slide it one way or the other in the sockets of the Rail End and then just force the pipe out of the socket. A through bolt would work too. Those Rail Ends are pot metal, otherwise you could weld it.
Getting back to the fifth post, you'll need a gate. You could construct it the same way.
As I think about this, you'll need access to it at some point as it will fail, or the service guy will need to do a deep clean rather than just a simple wash down of the coils with a hose and coil cleaner. That means you'll need some way to disassemble the cage. IDK, maybe have a shop weld up panels using welded wire fabric or something?
Taking it up on the roof is pretty drastic...and expensive. Bet you could come up with some secure ground solution for half the 'roof move' cost.
Good luck.
-
Scott, I figure the thevin turds as you call them, would just cut the fencing and or cut the lock on a gate. If I go 'ground', I may put it up on stilts or cantilever a platform 10' off the ground. I may seriously wrap the sucker with razor wire!
And for those of us who are not versed in HVAC speak.....what is VRV/ VRF?
And escott. No refrigerant to deal with. They took the compressor, and the line. No recharging here!
Yeah, maybe I could run duct, but I know I need a pro to install the system. I'm not really bright, but I know you need licensed contractor for certain things, like water heaters, etc. And HVAC.
-
Oh, and I'm not going anywhere soon, but the hot chick next door wants to buy the place to expand here booming B&B business. However, maybe that's what I should do. She rents that place for $950 a night. And it's always booked. In Louisville! unreal!
-
Oh, and I'm not going anywhere soon, but the hot chick next door wants to buy the place to expand here booming B&B business. However, maybe that's what I should do. She rents that place for $950 a night. And it's always booked. In Louisville! unreal!
WTF :scratch: $950 a night for a room or is it a suite?... in a neighborhood where people steal AC compressors?
-
VRV: Variable Refrigerant Volume
VRF: Variable Refrigerant Flow
Both terms are used interchangeably and refer to one large outdoor condenser (heat exchanger) and multiple indoor units to serve individual rooms/areas of the house. Each individual unit can be controlled separately. As mentioned can do cooling or both heating/cooling. Efficiency comes from adjusting settings to match each room (occupied/not, basement colder, 2nd floor hotter, individual tastes, etc.) and that the equipment operates at variable speeds to serve the exact demand.
-
WTF :scratch: $950 a night for a room or is it a suite?... in a neighborhood where people steal AC compressors?
+1
Yeah, wondering what the attractive neighbor includes for $950/night? :oops:
-
She rent's whole house, which is 6 bedrooms and 6 full baths + 2 half. Plus kitchen and entertainment room. Plus rooms all have a self contained 'record player'. Doubt if real hi fi, but cool she's into analog. Another reason to regret selling my wonderful Rega/Denon setup.
& I dunno if she throws in in extras, so to speak. :o Don't think so, as I never see her car when I see guest cars. :lol:
JLM, can that heat exchanger go on roof? I think for conventional unit I was told I need 5 ton.
I appreciate all the advice guys. It's been one long hot summer, but with a dehumidifier and a couple of big fans, I've endured. Hey, at least my electric bill is low! (honestly, I never ran air all that much when I had. I'd turn it on, let the place cool, then shut off, and just use fans)
Getting the humidity out helps a lot, as that's big problem here on eastern seaboard. I dunno how the people in deep south function. I had to go to south FL in July once. Jeezus it was miserable. I also had to go to way south Texas (McAllen) to shoot cotton farming for Monsanto, and it was like April. It was 90 and about 100% humidity, and the rep from the company said (with a big Texas accent) Son, you ought to be glad you got here when it's still cool! :o
-
The VRV/VRF condensing units are incompatible with a conventional furnace. The system is basically a heat pump that utilizes numerous cassettes or fan coils to distribute the conditioned air.
You need to go with a standard condensing unit that will mate to your existing furnace and coil.
-
well, I was told I need 5 ton, and old was 4 (it didn't work very well, so maybe reason) and existing furnace blower couldn't handle. So I'd need whole new setup. If so, should I look at what you describe? Was quoted stunning price too ($10K)
-
It's really hard to give specific advice without inspecting your house. We can't know all the variables that could rule out one solution versus another. But you could ask local contractors about alternatives, including what's been mentioned. Keep looking if they dismiss other options out of hand. Many residential furnace guys also do commercial work so they should be well versed to other technologies.
In general dehumidifiers plus fans = air conditioning, so energy savings would be minimal. If you open the house daily, it'd be worse than keeping the house closed with central air.
-
Yeah, I need to get some pro's in here. But thanks again for giving me something to consider.
-
$10k for a system isn't too far off for a residential contractor. Be sure the contractor you use is well versed in the local rebates from your utilities as there will be some available. The rebate won't be huge but it may pay for the next higher efficiency model up the line. And don't be afraid of an air to air heat pump. They can be incredibly efficient and are extremely reliable. That is the basis of the VRV/VRF design.
-
The worst part of all this is homeowners wouldn't cover the loss. I'm inclined to go up on roof and pull out half the nails so next storm takes it off and let them pick up the tab. But then, they'd probably say it was too old. And cover next to nothing. I pay $2400/yr, premium, which I think is a lot, but dunno. Maybe that's average too if you say $10K not way high.
And no other insurance carriers will touch this place until I do some remodel/repairs.
-
The worst part of all this is homeowners wouldn't cover the loss. I'm inclined to go up on roof and pull out half the nails so next storm takes it off and let them pick up the tab. But then, they'd probably say it was too old. And cover next to nothing. I pay $2400/yr, premium, which I think is a lot, but dunno. Maybe that's average too if you say $10K not way high.
And no other insurance carriers will touch this place until I do some remodel/repairs.
We pay about $2,000/year for our insurance. It behooves you (everyone) to change insurance every few years. We did that this year and ended up paying less for more coverage. Unfortunately, it's very time consuming. My wife spent hours on the phone talking to multiple companies.
For our AC units, I doubt anyone would steal them. They're 20+ years old and use a different refrigerant. (Although maybe that would make them more valuable?) When we replace them, we're thinking of going to heat pumps and using our oil as backup heat. It's just going to be expensive, because we'll probably have to replace basically the entire system, air handler, AC unit, lines, etc. And if you're doing that, you might as well replace some/most/all of the ducting.
-
To the OP, whatever you do have a competent person calculate a Manual J (cooling) and/or a Manual D (heating) on your home before buying a system. A competent person is usually somebody like a RESNET rater or a HVAC engineer. (I used Optimal Building Solutions.) Do not trust whatever numbers the heating and air contractor may provide. Most don''t take the time to do a proper analysis, which means the systems they install are typically vastly oversized. If anything, you want a system that's a bit undersized (at least for cooling).
Split minis can provide heating and cooling without the need for ducts. (Ducts outside a conditioned space are a bad idea in any case.) Daikin is a premium brand, but there are many other manufacturers that are more affordable. With this type of system -- or any system, really -- proper design and installation is critical.
-
thanks for advice. love this site!!
-
<snip> ....which means the systems they install are typically vastly oversized. If anything, you want a system that's a bit undersized (at least for cooling).
That statement may have some truth if you are buying the base model, single speed furnace and condensing unit but it isn't necessarily true for the top of the line, variable speed blower/compressor/condenser fan units. You have to really know what you are looking at when you pick manufacturers otherwise, the unit will not only not cool at peak load, it won't dehumidify either.
Every unit has a sweet spot in operational efficiency. Operating at their least efficient position on the operating curve is as full load, without exception, period. Undersized is not where you want to be. Think about it, you can equate it to your car. You could run balls out at living at the 7000 RPM red line much of the time. What happens? The motor wears out prematurely. Now flip that and keep the revs between 2500 and 3500 and you now get killer gas mileage and the car lives to see 300,000 miles. An air conditioning compressor lives under those same laws of physics.
A proficient HVAC designer looking to provide the highest efficiency at the highest number of operating hours may come up with a design that has the unit slightly oversized at peak loads but when operating for the other 70% of the time, the unit is at the sweet spot (for efficiency) on the curve. At these slower speeds, these units actually dehumidify better than at full speed. You have a better chance to wring the moisture out of the air when the air flows slower across the coil.
All of that comes with a cost. High Efficiency units cost more money. They have bigger condensing coils, more complex controls, more expensive motors and compressors, more technology. All that equates to more money. If you have a competent HVAC shop looking at your system (read=not the cheapest installer), they will run the calcs and show you how quickly the high efficiency unit will pay off the cost difference.
That typed, money always plays a factor in everyone's decision making process. I'm typically on the other end of the spectrum than most. I use, 'do it once, do it right, never regret' because ultimately, it was the right decision even thought it cost more money.
...if you haven't figured it out yet, I'm a mechanical engineer that specializes in energy retrofits for large commercial buildings.
-
Thanks Scott. I'm also a do it once, not spec the cheapest sort. Hell I'll buy a Milwaukee power saw and use it once or twice a year. But just can't get junk, ya know.
BTW: I respect the hell out of engineers. I thought about ChemE, but my math chops are weak. Ok, I hacked though 3 semesters of calculus, but never hung on for DE or more advanced stuff.
I'll also have a ton of respect for skilled crafts people like electricians, plumbers etc. Seems like many look down their nose at people who use their hands and get dirty or don't have a BS. But those people have skills.
Hope that doesn't sound like a political message.
They're doing a major road project here....new OH river bridge. I'm amazed at the brainpower it takes to design that, and the logistics to implement while keeping traffic flowing at least semi normal. And then there's the dudes that have to go out when it's -5 and install rebar, or pave when it's 90. Impressive stuff.
-
Wow, the net is scary. I just got a pop up ad for HVAC estimates. I guess based on our conversation here. creepy.
-
I'm comfortable with Scott's answer and no doubt his mechanical engineering background makes him the more knowledgeable person to advise you. Ideally you want a system that is optimal for your heating and cooling loads. My house is very energy efficient (1.1 ACH/50), so we are able to condition 3,200 square feet with just two tons across three zones. Our system is a bit undersized for peak loads (Think a 95 degree day when the heat-pump clothes drier on the second floor is in use.). The system can keep the second floor at 78 degrees, but just barely. The solution here is to convince other parties to wash and dry clothes in the evening :duh:
My air-source heat pump is 16 SEER and has a two-stage fan. (Update. Actually it is a 17 SEER.) I would have liked a a higher SEER and better components, but the mechanical engineer who evaluated our house advised against spending any more since we would never recoup the cost over the projected lifetime of a name brand system.
I'm planning a new house that will be smaller (1,500 square feet) and more energy efficient (.6 ACH/50, that is performing to the Passive House standard). I think we will be able to heat and cool it with a single fairly small split mini system since the loads will be low. I really like the Daikin systems, but it may make more economic sense to go with Mitsubishi.
One FWI to anyone contemplating a tight house. Ventilation is just as important as heating and cooling. Most homes have pretty lousy indoor air quality.
-
Wow, the net is scary. I just got a pop up ad for HVAC estimates. I guess based on our conversation here. creepy.
They're absolutely tracking you. I clear my cookies when I can remember to. If you want to see how well they're tracking you, go to Amazon, search for something, click on it. Close the Amazon window. Go somewhere else. See what ads pop up. The same can be said for any website.
For us, we're having a "green" builder come in to add insulation in the attic and the basement. He's a big believer in making a tight house. We are going to use the heat/cooling contractor the green builder uses. In fact, we used him to add Mitsubishi heat pumps/mini-splits to our in-law apartment. The issue is that it's expensive. We had the green builder in three years ago, and the estimate for the insulation/sealing was around 30k. In the interim, I've done some stuff (super tight attic staircase, sealed a lot of the attic holes such as lights, etc.), but even with that, it'll be expensive. And, we have a two zone heating/cooling system, with two air handlers. We're going to try to change the attic air handler and AC unit into a heat pump, at least two stage system, but to add that to the insulation is quite expensive. And, we still have another complete system to do later.
The other issue with insulation and sealing is that you can calculate approximate return on investment, but you can't gauge comfort. Air sealing the house means more comfort. For instance, we can keep the house a bit warmer in the winter. I learned this winter (which was quite warm) that we were keeping our house quite cold in the winter. It was nice to keep it at 70 sometimes instead of a high of 68 and much colder at other times.
-
ctviggen. $30K for air sealing and insulation sounds pricey. Before you spend those hard earned dollars, I suggest posting a question on the Q&A section at Green Building Advisor. Describe your objectives and your house (construction of exterior walls and attic/ceiling assembly) and indicate where you live. You will receive a ton of useful advice. The worst that can happen is the contributors will confirm the contractor's approach and budget.
You're absolutely right about the comfort issue. High efficiency allows us to keep our house around 76 degrees year round.
-
For comfort, the Low E3 windows are amazing. Summers in the Southwest can get brutal and the E3 glass minimizes heat gain and as a bonus there are no winter drafts with new windows.
When I remodeled my 750 sq. ft. house had to balance insulation with A/C cost (cost of unit + monthly bill) so ceiling has an R40, the existing concrete block house was outsulated with high density foam and stuccoed, and new windows all around. A 14 SEER Tempstar A/C-Heating unit is on the reinforced roof. During the last billing cycle Tucson had 24 days over 100 degrees, when I'm home I keep the temperature at 77 degrees. Last months electric bill was $91.00.
During the winter my body temperature, cooking, refrigerator and plasma TV pretty much heats the house.
-
It can be hard to recoup your investment on replacement windows. High quality storm windows are often a better choice.
-
Yeah scary how easily most HVAC contractors literally use a couple simple rules of thumb to size residential equipment.
-
It can be hard to recoup your investment on replacement windows. High quality storm windows are often a better choice.
Probably true but you can do a lot of nice stuff to a small house without spending a lot.
My entire house has 7 windows. I went with the Marvin Integrity glider with LoE 366 w/Argon - total cost $3352.27
Replacing the windows was a no-brainer. Did I mention new windows are quiet? You wouldn't believe how low the ambient sound level is with new windows (think music room).
-
If you are looking to do insulation, you may want to consider this product rather than traditional OC pink.
http://www.insolcorp.com/
InifinteR is a phase change material that has some amazing qualities. We're getting ready to do a major addition to our house adding almost 1000 square feet. I've currently got a 3 ton, 21 SEER variable speed Carrier heat pump. With the properties of InfinateR, I'm estimating I'll be oversized after I add a few VAV dampers to the system and play with diversity a bit.
On their website, watch this video in particular;
https://vimeo.com/157063495
If you are an engineering geek in the building industry, this stuff is uber cool. I've got one of my commercial customers ready to install 120K sf on their buildings.
This stuff runs $2/sf in quantities under 5000sf and $1.50/sf in quantities over.
I'm wrapping as much of my house, garage, barn and condo as I can with it.
-
Probably true but you can do a lot of nice stuff to a small house without spending a lot.
My entire house has 7 windows. I went with the Marvin Integrity glider with LoE 366 w/Argon - total cost $3352.27
Replacing the windows was a no-brainer. Did I mention new windows are quiet? You wouldn't believe how low the ambient sound level is with new windows (think music room).
Most efficient windows: fixed (not every window in the house needs to open, most of ours don't).
Next most efficient windows: casement/awning (hinged like a door, the seals work better).
Worst efficiency windows: sliders/double hung (no compression of seals along the sliding portions).
But yes, good windows are quiet. We bought poor man Pella (the ones with 13/16" separation between glazing which are great) windows (Norco, now called Jel-Win) and can barely hear 40 mph wind outside.
-
If you are looking to do insulation, you may want to consider this product rather than traditional OC pink.
http://www.insolcorp.com/
InifinteR is a phase change material that has some amazing qualities. We're getting ready to do a major addition to our house adding almost 1000 square feet. I've currently got a 3 ton, 21 SEER variable speed Carrier heat pump. With the properties of InfinateR, I'm estimating I'll be oversized after I add a few VAV dampers to the system and play with diversity a bit.
On their website, watch this video in particular;
https://vimeo.com/157063495
If you are an engineering geek in the building industry, this stuff is uber cool. I've got one of my commercial customers ready to install 120K sf on their buildings.
This stuff runs $2/sf in quantities under 5000sf and $1.50/sf in quantities over.
I'm wrapping as much of my house, garage, barn and condo as I can with it.
Know the concept of thermal mass well (thought about underground houses in the 70's) and phase change (have an engineering degree) but not convinced of the value of this product. On moderate days (temperature swings between say 40F and 80F) our furnace/air conditioning barely runs (due to the inherent thermal mass the house already has). On colder days (with temperature swings between -20F and 30F) where the real energy costs are experienced don't foresee the phase change (the real energy savings of this product) occurring.
Better to add "real" thermal mass inside the house and insulate/seal the house. For instance we have R11 insulation under our basement slab and a 13 foot tall stone fireplace totally inside the thermal envelope. We put 75% of our windows facing south (with 2 foot overhangs) and 5% facing north. And we used house wrap plus a 1/4" fan-fold styrofoam sheathing. Wished we had used SIP (structural insulated panels) throughout that turns your house into a plywood refrigerator. (The panels are made up of sheets up to 8ft x 24ft of rigid foam glued between sheets of OSB/plywood and are very strong, so there are no/few studs to create a thermal break. These can be used for walls, foundation walls, or ceilings/roofs.)
Sorry for dragging this thread off topic.
-
...the product is used to supplement building insulation
-
I think everything mentioned so far is related to AC units. Until recently all the older homes in the center of Tucson had evaporative (swamp) cooling. Many of these houses now have AC but without adding extra insulation and they still have the single glazed crank open steel casement windows. I saw many of these homes when I was looking to buy and thought the cooling cost during our 6 month long summer has to be sky high. Even with ceiling fans the temperature in these houses roller coasters up and down, from getting uncomfortably warm to getting blasted with cold air then actually feeling the heat increase as soon as the AC turns off.
Wayne