AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Omega Speaker Systems => Topic started by: -Richard- on 19 Mar 2005, 07:18 pm
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I recently purchased a pair of Omega 8R speakers
which I am thrilled with (more to come about my
impressions later when they are more fully
relaxed) and for fun I switched out the tri-path
"digital" amp I purchased for it and switched in a rather
inexpensive Single Ended Pentoid integrated amp...
perhaps 6 watts of available power...
The synergy astounded me...a fully fleshed out musical
picture was presented to me in the most "fleshy" and
tactile tonal textures imaginable...
Now I am thinking about purchasing a 2A3 SET amp for
the Omega's and I was wondering if any one out there has
had experience with this type of SET amp and which ones
particularly impressed you.
I would deeply appreciate any feedback along these lines...
Yes...of course...the idea of budget comes into the picture here...
as always...my budget is modest...say less than $2000.00...
hopefully a lot less...I would certainly consider used here
unless someone out there feels that used for these kinds
of amps is a bit perilous (for whatever reason)...
I have heard of Don Garber's Fi 2A3's and I am looking into
it...and the Japanese Sun 2A3's which I am also looking into...
I am entirely new to SET amps...and I realize that this is a very
subtle, complex, and demanding field of inquiry in order to
get at the heart of what would work with the greatest
synergy with my Omega's...
Also if anyone has any thoughts about other types of SET's
that they feel might be better than the 2A3's for any reason I
would be most grateful for your insights (for example I have
read that all transformers on the 2A3's hum a bit)...
Thanks for your kind attention...any help would be
most appreciated.
Warm regards -Richard-
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Take a look at Welborne Labs 2A3 mono amps. I have Ron's Moondog 2A3 mono's and have been very happy with them.
http://www.welbornelabs.com/index.html
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Take a look also at the Bottlehead Paramours and also the SEX amp. These have earned universal praise and are inexpensive ValueKing qualifiers.
www.bottlehead.com
There is also a forum for the Bottleheads, a new kind of religion. Single ended amps and Fostex drivers are a KILLER combination.
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The late, lamented Listener magazine did a 2A3 amp shootout a few years back (OK, 2A3s and 300Bs) and the Wright Sound 2A3s stood among the top performers and the least-expensive amps in the sampling. You can read the pertinent portion of the review at www.wright-sound.com ... Current selling price is just under $1,500.
But realize when you're talking 2A3 SETs that you'll only have around three watts of output. If you have a large room, you might find yourself wishing for a few more wpcs ...
I'm using a single ended pentode -- a very modest nOrh SE-9 with a pair of Super 3s -- in a small room. I get about 8 wpc and it's plenty. But I'm not sure how it would work in the much larger living room or family room ...
Good luck, and happy hunting.
Mike
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With the 97db Omega FE206E, a 2A3 should be plenty...
I heard a friend's 2A3 Fi/X hooked up to purpose built twin FE206E, picking up a few db and wired for 4Ohms, and it really, REALLY rocked!!
Also, there is an Antique Sound Labs Orchid 2A3 on Audiogon right now, with a very reasonable pricetag on it. If it is the new one, they include digital bias meter, and I believe a remote volume control. Total decadence for a pittance.
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I heard a friend's 2A3 Fi/X hooked up to purpose built twin FE206E, picking up a few db and wired for 4Ohms, and it really, REALLY rocked!!
Also, there is an Antique Sound Labs Orchid 2A3 on Audiogon right now, with a very reasonable pricetag on it. If it is the new one, they include digital bias meter, and I believe a remote volume control. Total decadence for a pittance.
Would you be willing to forego your Clari-T for a 2A3?
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Not a chance.
To me, NOTHING does better with single driver speakers than the ClariT. Period.
The ClariT is the best compromise out there in the land of amplifiers IMHO. It sometimes comes close-ish to the liquid SET sound, but it has real kick, and lightning speed, and can unravel and unbundle individual instruments even in dense mixes, and has otherworldly control over speaker drivers, which SET's simply do not. BUT, I love love love the TONE and liquidity of single ended amps and have owned a few. The 2A3 triodes are the gems of the tube world...
I have a Bottlehead SEX amp on the way, as a gift, and I look forward to assembling it, playing it, and enjoying it, comparing it to the ClariT, and listening as Vinnie's amp surely kicks its ass.
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Please tell me more about this amp (ClariT) as I also love 2A3 amps. My speakers are 96db Epiphany 12/12.
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Go to Red Wine Audio Circle on this website. I second Dmason's assesment.
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Yeap I third Dmason's assesment ! :D
I have a beautiful sounding tubed preamp sitting in its box not being used because of the ClariT. Damn you Dmason..Damn you!! :wink:
(http://vgonpic4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1110926288.jpg)[/url]
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I'll fourth it. I have the Bolder version of a battery-powered Tripath. No more tube amps for me. No sir. Not one more. :hyper:
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One of the cool things about this thread is that its author already HAS a ClariT. He's just letting his curiosity run wild.
I for one, have completely lost my taste for thermionic distortion and tube-induced "warmth." Or expensive driver tubes flaring out just as I am picnicking on the floor with a new girlfriend, or some other highly inopportune moment. People forget about what a f***ing hassle tube amps can actually be. Biasing issues, real vibration issues, expense, OUCH!! that's HOT!! issues. Oh, the tubes are on back-order, issues, and on and on......Many of you know exactly what I am talking about.
Since mine ears have been re-educated, I have heard several highly praised tube amps, and I found them abit wanting. As always, YMMV.
What I would like to see is matching ClariT amp and Omega Speakers in burled Maple. Something retro, vintage, with brass hinges, and no need for AC. High tech with a Victorian vibe.
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Something retro, vintage, with brass hinges, and no need for AC. High tech with a Victorian vibe.
I've always dug the Moth Audio stuff.
(http://www.mothaudio.com/images/hi_res/si2A3.jpg)
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Moth. Exactly. And wonderful sounding stuff to boot.
That high tech 1940's thing. The Cicadas look like 40's radios. That's what is needed, only Class D. Louis is just the guy to figure that aesthetic out.
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After a frustrating "burn-in" period with my Omega 8R's
using the ClariT amp, the Fostex drivers are finally relaxing...
Of course Louie and DMason warned me about the timetable for
burn-in of these magical paper drivers...Louie feels the "spider"
that holds the paper cone to the metal basket is particularly stiff
in these drivers and needs time to relax...
How does the combination of the ClariT amp and the Omega 8R's
sound for anyone interested(?)...Well I am approaching perhaps
80 hours on the Omega's and 150 hours on the ClariT...not the
requisite 100 hours that DMason and Louie feel is a minimum
burn-in period for the Fostex drivers..
Still...A most convincing, musical picture is thrust away from the
speakers so that the music appears in the room freely,
unencumbered by the mechanical source of the drivers or
the cabinet or the amp...and a feeling of profound intimacy
gathers itself around instruments and the voice that is very
convincing and deeply seductive...
One hears layer upon layer of musical information that interact
with one another in the most seamless and intricate fashion...
There is a strange quiet that accompanies everything...the magic
of the battery power no doubt...that seems to further the impression
that the performers are playing for you alone...the room is filled
with the "presence" of the music and the performers in a startling
way...
What is most interesting perhaps is the sense of ambient cues that
surrounds the music...air, space, instrumental overtones, the very walls
of the recording space appear to be breathing and this effect saturates
the musical picture in a most uncanny way...Deborah is always pointing
this out to me (during the day Deborah is closer to the speakers than
I am...she designs on the mac in the same room as the Omega's and
I am a bit further away in a bedroom...although the sound flows into my
room seemingly intact...a nice feature of the Omega's and the ClariT
that suggest that the music is moving rather freely through the space
of my house).
When the music is rendered with the idea of creating a spatial effect this
combination opens a vast spatial door that is completely convincing...a
startling experience one must hear to believe...
So one may ask...given my extremely favorable experience with the
ClariT amp and the Omega 8R speakers, why in heaven would I need
to search further for another amp...in this case a low powered SET
2a3?
The answer is simply curiosity...the ClariT has set a bench mark for
what DMason heard several months ago in the tri-path chip set amps
that were available then (on the cheap of course which is his ethos)
but raised to a very high level of perfection with the ClariT...
And we are all awaiting DMasons observations of what further magic
we can expect from the built-in Ack!...and perhaps also the built-in Scott Nixon
dac...to raise the level of musical magic even further with the ClariT...
But there is that liquidity that the best SET amps have that I hunger for
sometimes...on certain kinds of music...and I am very curious to see
what the Omega's sound like when being feed some hot glass...
But the ClariT is mine forever...I have no intention of ever giving it up...
except for further modifications by Vinnie of course...and then I will
miss it dearly...
It becomes very very seductive to hear music rendered with the combination
of the Omega 8R's and the ClariT amp...intimacy, detail that always serves the
intelligence and spirit of the music, space galore, inner layering of musical
overtones, and everything alive in the room...DMason's prognostications
of the potential of the tri-path chip technology and their love affair with highly
efficient paper drivers has come to fruition with this wonderful combination...
And that understanding know drives my curiosity to see what those magical
SET's can bring to the theater of musical experience with the Omega's...
Actually I rather like the idea of switching amps...and speakers...if one has that
kind of luxury...however I do not have any wish to purchase another speaker
until I have lived with the Omega 8R's for quite some time...I need to absorb
the sound of the Omega's and understand their potential...although perhaps
Louie's new hemp drivers might tempt me once he works out the kinks in
their design.
Incidentally I once spoke to Don Garber on the phone...nice older
chap...no web site yet and his "catalog" is a series of individually folded
xeroxed papers...quaint actually...I liked him instantly...I really like his Bauhaus
design sense...form follows function...with the X series...and these modestly
priced amps (for tubes mind you) are legendary...people really like them...
although a mild hum seems to be part of the equation...
Thanks for all your ongoing help and suggestions...I am certainly following
up on everything you have all been kind enough to share with me...
Deeply, deeply appreciate it.
DMason...how about sharing with us what your
new SEX amp is like...talk about safe sex!!!
Warmest regards -Richard-
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Antique Sound Lab Tulip probably not as good as the Orcid but a very nice amp for a very good price. With upgraded cryo treated tubes it can hold its own. Works very well with these speakers. Regards Moray James.
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Thanks Moray,
I will look into the Tulip based on your recommendation...
Where do you purchase cryo treated tubes?
One would think that the glass would not be compatible
with the freezing temperatures that cryo treatments
traditionally apply...but obviously this is not true...
Any more insights along these lines would be most helpful.
Warm regards -Richard-
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I'd like to toss my suggestions into the ring.
Take a look at the Handmade Electronics Deluxe 2a3. I've owned mine for a number of years and love it. The 6C45Pi driver tube is a fabulous match with the 2a3 output tube. The price is darned attractive too starting at $675 (for the basic version). The Deluxe is everything you would expect a 2a3 to be (and sound like). You'll have to give Tony a call to see what he's building now. He doesn't update his site very often.
If you are into DIY, Ron Wellebornes DRD 300B's are absolutely stunning.
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Hi Scott F.,
Thanks for your suggestion...talk about an
eclectic audio company...I found them on the
web and they appear to no longer make the
"Deluxe" version from their web copy...although
they also appear not to have any of their basic
design available since 2004...hummmmmmmmm!
Feels like they are hiding out!
I'll call however and see if I can untangle their situation...
Incredible positive review of their Deluxe model linked
to their sight...but it is no longer available and that is rather
frustrating...
I'll let you know what I learn.
Warm regards -Richard-
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I have a beautiful sounding tubed preamp sitting in its box not being used because of the ClariT. Damn you Dmason..Damn you!!
Try putting it back in. My arrangement is much, much better with my tubed pre in the chain.
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Hi Mike,
For anyone interested Mike is using the
ClariT and a tubed preamp to drive his
new Druid's...and I wish I could have Captain
Kirk beam me and Deb to his house for
a chance to hear the magic that he is hearing...
Where is the Enterprise when you need it!
Question: have you ever tried a full tube
pre and amp...with your Druid's?
And...could you describe what the tube pre
does that the stand alone ClariT does not do?
Scott F., spoke to Tony at Hand Made Electronics...
seems they are not about to make an amp anytime
soon...problems with the metal enclosure paint...
nice guy...laid back...interesting to chat with...
the Delux is out of the picture...since Black Gate
went out of business they can no longer get the
caps that made the Delux "sound"
Warm regards -Richard-
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Straight from the RCA's in my tubed Modwright, the volume-controlled Clari-T paints a detailed and broad picture. It is sonically impressive. By comparison, the tubed preamp puts meat on the bones. By comparison, the straight-wire sound is harmonically thin, as a skeleton. No parts are missing but the presentation does not breathe as a living thing.
With the pre, rich harmonics are filled in. Bodies of instruments are portrayed with proper wood. I don't hear a loss in detail or extension. There is no obvious loss of objective definition. Of course, the extra dimensionality tubes bring is there in spades and the end-result is detailed, rich, extended and fast.
Early with the Clari-T I had not plugged the pre in the chain, thinking the amp is integrated, until a friend came over with a Decware tube amp. It sounded wonderfully saturated on my setup, leaving me shocked and a little embarrassed about my touted (by me) amp. After he left, I set about figuring the problem out, did so, and now I won't leave the pre out.
My speculation is that some CDP's are not impedance-matched to the Clari-T. The simple volume control does not match those players to the amp. The issues I get without the pre are similar to what I've heard about imperfect passive preamps. I am not educated in such matters though, and do not cast this as fact.
Who knows? Many people report the sound to be better without a preamp. My statement is simply to try it both ways and see what works best for each individual system.
My dual mono is done and will be en-route tomorrow. Oh, what fun!
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for your careful and well thought out
description of what your modwright pre and the ClariT
and doing together to give you the magic you are
currently experiencing with your Druid's...and also for
a bit of the history of how you came to understand
what the Druid's needed to sound their best...
Which modwright pre do you have and has it been
moded?
Please let us know what the new configuration of the
ClariT as separate mono-blocks does to improve/change
the sound.
Also thanks for your suggestion to read the Ishmael books
by David Quinn...I am not familiar with them but I will
certainly look into them based on your recommendation.
Warm regards -Richard-
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Hi Scott F.,
Thanks for your suggestion...talk about an
eclectic audio company...I found them on the
web and they appear to no longer make the
"Deluxe" version from their web copy...although
they also appear not to have any of their basic
design available since 2004...hummmmmmmmm!
Feels like they are hiding out!
I'll call however and see if I can untangle their situation...
Incredible positive review of their Deluxe model linked
to their sight...but it is no longer available and that is rather
frustrating...
I'll let you know what I learn.
Warm regards -Richard-
I wrote that review a few years ago when I was writing for TNT. I still feel the same way about the amp, in fact it's my main amp in my Lowther/sub based system (until I get the DRD's done). If you want, you could ask any of the GAS guys about it's sound, they'll let you know I didn't write an overly positive review without good reason. I've compaired the Handmade to the Bottlehead stuff plus a few local 2a3 amps build by some really talented designers and I feel it sounds better. If you surf down to the GAS Circle, you can flip through the picture gallery and see some pics of my SET rig.
When it comes to the Handmade site, Tony doesn't update it very often as you can tell. He's still very much in business at last check. Tony goes on kicks, sometimes he's building 2a3's, sometimes its 45's or 300b's, you never know until you give him a call. I see he's finally found the virtues of the DC (direct coupled) 45. Its the same principal as the DRD from Ron Welleborne.
Tony is a good guy. Like you say, he's a bit eclectic (actually I think he's a retired technician who builds amps as a hobby in his retirement years) but he makes a damned fine sounding amp that is very affordable. He provides you the schematic in case problems arise after warranty. Mine has been bullet proof and I've got to have 6-8k hours on it now. The great thing about SET's is there are so few parts. That coupled with the schematic, literally any decent local tech can work on it.
Ron Wellbornes DRD's are worth a serious look. With your Fostex sitting around 96-98dB (or so), the 300B will give you some much needed headroom on big transients. My Lowhters are sitting at 101dB (or so) and my little 2a3 runs out of gas pretty regularly even with using an active crossover and cutting them off at 100-200hz (which gains me quite a few dB of gain).
The sound of the DRD's are (as I mentioned before) stunning. I was so impressed when I heard a pair in my system, I bought a pair for myself. Ron will assemble them for you if you don't feel like building them yourself.
Don't forget, any SET (amp) you end up with, you'll have to mate a decent preamp to it. There really aren't many SET integrateds to choose from out there.
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Scott F., spoke to Tony at Hand Made Electronics...
seems the ...
Guess I should have read this post before I posted that message above :stupid: :oops:
I guess Tony hasn't heard that Blackgate is still in business. Maybe I'll give him a buzz. I haven't talked to him in a while.
Good luck in your searches :D
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Actually Scott, I thought both of your posts were
extremely interesting...and I deeply appreciate
your sharing of your insights with me...
your review was very well written and I enjoyed
reading it a great deal...very thorough and detailed
with a great deal of information...including insights
into your personal audio evolution...nice!
Thanks so much for your help...I am deeply impressed
with your knowledge of SET's and I trust your insights
based on the depth of your review and your experience
with this very exciting tube based technology...which
brings music to life with the right speaker synergy...
Sorry...I do not know what a DRD is?
It sounds like you think I should seriously consider
the Wellborn 300B as a good candidate for driving
my Omega’s with...
I have heard a great deal of conflicting information about
SET’s...for example I have heard the 300B’s are slow...
and that 2A3’s are faster...also that 300B’s are more
euphonic and 2A3’s more detailed and transparent...
but I have never actually had any experience with
these amplifier designs...
Until the Omega Grand 8R’s I have had very little
experience with single driver wide range
speakers of high sensitivity...and my pentoid amp...
made by a defunct builder called Wright Audio...
not George Wright’s highly esteemed company...
sounds so good with the new JJ/Tesla tubes that I am
in awe of its musical virtues...and Deb is crazy about
it...cannot listen to SS amps again without wincing..
too painful for her...a true convert...
I have another question as well, Scott...this amp is
exhibiting problems with certain connections...
just started 2 days ago...there is a breaking up
at peaks and one channel loses its full signal
and sounds thin...I was able to tweak all
the connections until it sounded OK again but
it is a temporary solution...I think the ceramic
tube receptacles are loose...also I need a more
robust speaker cable connection in the back...
something that would take banana plugs...
Can you recommend someone whom you trust
that can do this kind of work at a reasonable
charge?
I’ll look into the Wellborn 300B...meanwhile any further
insights you can give me about it and any other thoughts
you have would be wonderful to hear...and please think about
someone to “fix” my pentoid integrated amp which I really love
with the Omega’s...
Warm regards -Richard-
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Scott :
Ron Wellbornes DRD's are worth a serious look.
[/list:u]Sorry...I do not know what a DRD is?
[/list:u]Some picture's and an ad for sale on Audiogon.... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1120527099 [/list:u]Looks good.... :dance: [/list:u]
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For whatever it's worth ... I have two : an Audio Note Kit 1, 300B final stage, using Tamura 5002 OPT, and a Sun Audio 2A3, also using Tamura OPT. Black Gates, Jensen, combination of Tantalum and Kiwame resistors in both.
The 300B definitely sounds better. Mids and at both ends of freq extremes. Maybe it's the higher power, maybe it's the OPT... But YOUR OWN EARS ARE THE FINAL JUDGE.
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A very..... interesting read (http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/mwa2a3_e.html)...thanks Scott ! :)
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One of the advantages of most single driver speakers is their limited bass output as it relates to synergistic amp pairing.
With my Fostex F200A driver (rated 30 - 20,000 Hz, 8 ohms, 90 dB/w/m) based speakers I've found bigger tube amps (10 wpc and bigger) to provide bloated, uncontrolled, muddy bass and smaller tube amps lacking in power or any deep bass output. Conversely I've heard good results from 35 wpc tube amps with smaller single driver designs (that have similar bass output to the Omega speakers). In my experience many SET/single driver fans have simply accepted lack of deep bass and have grown completely accustomed to a lean sound.
That's why I'm a Clari-T owner. A bit more juice might be nice in my 2,000 cu. ft. room but I'm most satisfied to wait and see what Vinnie or others can come up with to take things to the next level.
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One of the advantages of most single driver speakers is their limited bass output as it relates to synergistic amp pairing.
With my Fostex F200A driver (rated 30 - 20,000 Hz, 8 ohms, 90 dB/w/m) based speakers I've found bigger tube amps (10 wpc and bigger) to provide bloated, uncontrolled, muddy bass and smaller tube amps lacking in power or any deep bass output. Conversely I've heard good results from 35 wpc tube amps with smaller single driver designs (that have similar bass output to the Omega speakers). In my experience many SET/single driver fans have simply accepted lack of deep bass and have grown completely accustomed to a lean sound.
That's why I'm a Clari-T owner. A bit more juice might be nice in my 2,000 cu. ft. room but I'm most satisfied to wait and see what Vinnie or others can come up with to take things to the next level.
You're right about most SET's lacking deep bass. When you take a look at a frequency response graph from (say) a 2a3, they start to roll off gently below 30Hz. Coupled with the typical single driver speaker like the Omega, the rolloff is a non-issue because it can't produce 30Hz anyway.
I haven't found the bloated bass that you mention from the SET's. Even though I use mine to drive the Lowthers (while don't do anything under 60Hz) we've plugged my 2a3 along with Willies PP 45, Handmades basic 45, several 300's, plus some triode strapped EL34's, into a pair of Altec 19's (15" woofer), a pair of Klipsch horns (15" woofers), LaSalla's, and Cornwalls. None of the SET's exhibited the bloated sound. I have to qualify that by saying that we typically rolled the tubes to get the best sound with the speakers.
Richard,
The DRD mean Direct Reactance Drive. Essentially, its Ron's terminology to describe a direct coupled design. Direct coupled means that there is no coupling cap between the driver tube and the output tube. The Handmade utilizes a .22uF coupling cap between the (in the case of the Handmade) 6C45Pi driver tube and the 2a3 output tube. This is 'typical' most SET designs.
The DRD and Handmade DC designs eliminate that coupling cap. The result is veil after veil are lifted. The veiling comes from that cap. I've only played one (maybe two) caps that don't veil the sound. Both of them are Teflon and very expensive (V-Cap and the Audio Cap used in the Handmade Deluxe design). I haven't installed the V-Cap in the 2a3 to do a side by side so I can't firmly say which is better.
What I have done is listen to the DRD beside the 2a3. The DRD smoked my 2a3. Granted they are two completely different presentations. The 2a3 has a lovely relaxed sound. Tons of detail without the appearance of being veiled. I still haven't figured out the best way to describe the sound of teh DRD other than it just sounded cleaner.
DRD Schematic
(http://www.welbornelabs.com/images/drd.jpg)
http://www.welbornelabs.com/drd.htm
If you notice, the only thing in the signal path is a single resistor, two tubes and the output transformer. This is as close to a 'straight wire' as you can get. Result, little (if any) 'coloration' from passive parts installed in the signal path.
Typical SET Design
(http://www.audiodesignguide.com/my/2a3_schb.gif)
As you can see with this 2a3 design, this one utilizes a coupling cap between the driver tube and the output tube. Some designs utilize 'chokes' to couple the driver to output tubes.
Eliminating the coupling cap or choke cleans up the sound dramatically. Thats not to say that a capacitor or choke coupling sounds bad because it doesn't. I love the sound of my 2a3 and will keep it forever. In fact, after listening to Willie's (drummerwill in the GAS circle) PP 45, I'm going to build one of those too.
Hey Lonewolf, Thanks!
Here's anonther one of my favs....
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/lowtherpm2a_e.html
brady2004
The AudioNote gear sounds great too. I've listened to several of their SET's and they are really impressive and the kits are a great value.
Maybe it's just me, I've played with the little digital amps and found them lacking. Not that they don't sound clean, accurate and all that stuff but when you compare them side by side to quality SET, they fall short. There is something about them that seems to strip the harmonics. I find the same thing with solid state gear too.
I'm not saying that to slam the digital or solid state gear or start a flame war, it's just my personal opinion. I've got a heavy preference for tubes. With all their quicks, the fact that they are picky about speakers, cables, IC's power quality, brand of tubes, all that negative stuff, I* still prefer them over the best solid state or digital gear. I guess part of it is I'm a cronic tweaker. The simplicity of tube design lets be roll up my sleaves and get dirty.
On the other hand, if your not into tube rolling or have the patience (sp) to carefully assemble a tube based system, the digital and solid state amps do a fine job.
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I agree with JLM.
I Love good 300B sound as well. Prefer it to 2A3 for its gutsy, power-freebasing, heat-billowing, meaty in the middle sonic. But when I consider that a good pair of Meshplates is close to the price of a new ClariT, for example, which when burned in sounds waaaay closer to a very good tube amp than SS, and has outstanding bass control, it is a better compromise, IMHO. Unless you want to get into spendy, convoluted tube/digital hybrid biamplification, with active crossovers, and all the rest. I do love good tube amps tho'
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hey.
you might want to check this out.i heard it at ces this year and it really was very nice sounding.
http://www.operaudio.com/Html/Opera-Products-CYBERSERIES.htm
cyber-10 sig.
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Scott:
Just to clarify, the bass bloat I found was from non-SET tube amps.
Dan:
One of the most convincing factors for me to try the Clari-T was that most of the recommendations came from SET (versus solid state) lovers. And that coming from a a guy who has never owned tube gear (just never got into the "romance" of staring at light bulbs).
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The ClariT is definitely moving in the right
direction...and perhaps with the upgrades that
DMason has had Vinnie implement, including a
built-in dac, the sound is fast approaching the
potential for the digital chip it uses...
I have owned 3 digital amps so far. From what I heard
from my own ClariT and from descriptions from serious
listeners who have upgraded their ClariT to a higher
level of performance I might take a guess and say that
the real magic of the digital chip is to present the "inside"
of the music’s "surface"...as if you were listening to the
music the way the microphone is hearing it when it was
recorded...I imagine further iterations of this approach
will get spookier and spookier...especially with the right
speakers...
On the other hand, what I hear with my pentoid tube integrated
amp with the new JJ/Tesla tubes is entirely different...the instrument
is IN THE ROOM...the air of my room is being vibrated in a way
that is so visceral, so "present", so real sounding that it erases
my critical thinking and I am stunned into an immediate "connection"
with the performance...as if it was being played FOR THE FIRST TIME...
I cannot emphasis this phenomenon enough...Deb and I will listen
to the same piece of music everyday for months as we course through
our limited collection....for example I have 2 solo performances of
Bach's Cello suites...one by the Russian master Rostropovich and
another by Yo Yo Ma...we listen to them almost everyday...and each
daily "performance" sounds totally new...the resonating cello fills our
room as if they are really siting there and playing...the richness of
timber, the different attacks of the strings with the bow, the shifting of
emotion as the pieces unfold are completely revealed...
It is no longer about the inner structure of the sound...which
the ClariT has the potential to do better than any amp I have
ever heard...but about the full, physical "presence" of the
instrument being performed in my room intact and alive...
There is a another consideration...because Deb has been such
an active part of my audio "hobby" she has gained a great deal
of insight into what she is "hearing" with each component change...
and she prefers the sound of the pentoid amp hands down...
the sound soothes her and resonates with her and makes her
feel "connected" to the performance...
I friend dropped off a NAD amp he purchased in flea market...
I played it for a short while until Deb pleaded with me to replace
it with our pentoid tube amp...too grating for her...like chalk on a
blackboard...
I am going to go deeper into where the ClariT is heading...in the
sense of its potential to replicate what the pick-up mike is hearing...
that INSIDE THE MUSIC'S surface that is so beguiling...and so
effective in single driver wide range speakers...
But the pentoid amp brings the players and the instruments to life
on my Omega Grand 8R's in a most remarkable way...and Deb seems
to be entirely taken with it...I admit that I am also presently addicted to its
immediacy and the way it SATURATES the musical presentation...
Just some thoughts for the present on what is most certainly a work
in progress...
Thanks everyone for your insights about tube amps and their
synergy with single driver speakers...this is a very important part
of my education in an area of audio that is very new to me and
full of surprises and much needed information...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
The Fostex 206E is a very direct, no-nonsense unit, i.e. not inherently "warm". However, it will convey richness if present upstream. It's not surprising that tubes are harmonizing your sound considerably. In fact, your description of what you're hearing parallels my observations of the Clari-T with and without my tubed pre exactly. I've heard others echo similar sentiments as well.
Anyone with a good preamp and a Clari-T should do some comparatives and come back here with observations. I'd bet this will be a recurring, though not universal theme. My take is Clari-T is not what's limiting the harmonic bloom you're getting with the tube amp, but a mismatch between your source and the Clari-T. Combining the "inner structure insight" of the Clari-T and instrumental presence of tubes is possible, and on-tap at Chez Smith. The amp is not witholding texture, life, and bloom.
My preamp is a Modwright SWL 9.0 SE, stock. This is the higher-end unit Dan sells but has not been further upgraded. My unit was the second made, and the present batch of additional upgrades was not available. It is a truly excellent piece.
Richard - I'd be very curious to see if you could borrow a nice tubed unit to see if these speculations hold true.
-
Hi Mike,
there seems to be a misunderstanding about the Fostex
drivers used in the Omega Grand 8R's...it is actually
a 207E...confirmed by Louie...I only mention this because it
may effect our collective thinking about the drivers potential
in certain situations...
I would love to try several possibilities with tube amps and
ClariT with a tubed preamp like you are using...incidentally
thanks for the information about your pre...I will check into it
very soon...sounds like it might be a perfect match...
What you said about the CD source not being entirely compatible
with the ClariT may be correct...Vinnie seems to think so also...
I was using the Scott Nixon Tubedacplus with my cheap Pioneer
563A univeral CD player and Vinnie told me that he thinks the
SN dact may not be entirely compatible with what the ClariT likes
in the way of an incoming signal...sorry forgot the details of that
conversation which Vinnie went into in depth...
I am no longer using the SN dact...even with my Pentoid amp...
the direct signal from the Pioneer is much more alive and dimensional
in this particular application...synergy being the active principle here...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
Scott:
Just to clarify, the bass bloat I found was from non-SET tube amps.
That wound make sense. Mating a PP with the wrong speakers will definately do that.
Dan,
Since you mentioned the YoYo Ma piece, I take it you are a fan. If you don't have it already, get YoYo Ma and Emmanuel Axe playing Brahms concertos. That one is to die for. Another great one is Ma and Isaac Stern playing playing Brahms Double Concerto. It's another great one.
-
Richard,
Do you still have Albert's triode pre amp? That thing is one of the best tube pre amps around for less than 10X its price. It may well be the ticket.
With the obvious synergy between the Monica DAC and Ultimate ClariT, having an impedance match between the two makes it come together. As much as I have been searching for a reason to add tubes over the last six months, I cannot find one. Everything, including the bloom is there. In fact, I have noticed that the Reali-T takes about a half hour to really come to life, exactly like a tube amp. It actually needs to warm up somehow. Once it gets going, with good source material, it sounds reminiscent of the sound I got with Art Audio PX-25 and a Theta Miles as a source, with that warm, bottom-y sound of Theta, with the speed and crunch of the PX-25 tubes. A sort of digital representation of that. For about 10% the price of admission, I might add.
-
Ahhh DMason, no one can describe their audio
experiences with the flare and precision that
you seem to conjure up every time...and I suspect
it is your wide and deep experience with other amp
topologies that allows you to pull your comparisons
together so easily...
Yes...I still have Albert's triod pre...and your are right that
it may be the key here to get things sounding the way I seem to
now be interested in hearing...
Vinnie feels that the ClariT sounds best when a preamp is being
used when it does not have the "volume" control on the front...
as a stand-alone amp...
Although Mike's experience with his pre and his ClariT used to drive
his Druid's seems to work perfectly for him...
Dan...I think my feeling for electronics parallels yours...which is to say
I imagine that if one carries any amplifier topology far enough...assuming
the designer is moving ever closer to the source of where the magic
can take place...that something extraordinary may happen...as opposed
to going the root of the hybrid design BEFORE the designer has carried
out every possible experiment and hunch that might get him "there"...
I think that is what Vinnie is doing with your help...not to take anything away
from Vinnie's genius...but you are willing to push your highly educated
hunches as far as you know how...and Vinnie seems to be resilient enough
to put things together as his audience dreams them up...to his credit...
here is a rare person whose enthusiasm is matched by his inventiveness...
And you know very well what you want to be hearing...or perhaps more to
the point...what you should not be hearing...and you have a keen sense of
what is possible...a good dose of Sherlock Holmes resides in your nature to
be certain...
So I am seriously considering going the route that you have established
with your Ultimate ClariT...with its emphasis on synergy of all the parts and
batteries to by-pass the entire issue of "cleaning" the AC crap that seems
to plague all of our efforts toward the refinement of sound...
I just wish it was all a bit less expensive...yes I know...it is all relative isn't it?
Warm regards -Richard-
-
I still would be interested in hearing about how Albert's pre amp might sound; the original ClariT is NO slouch, that's fo shoo. Failing that, I would like to perhaps try it with my conventional source. Who knows. I think Mttbsh pulled his out, after awhile. Found it in the way.
-
Elsewhere at AC is a thread that is discussing similar issues.
There I recently suggested that a stand alone stereo tube output stage with adjustable output level may be the answer. It would become a cathode follower when added to any line level source. Installed between player/DAC and the Clari-T it would take care of any impedance mismatches and replace the Clari-T volume control. For $400 (plus two more sets of interconnects) Decware has just such a beast:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/zbox.htm
Steve Deckert runs a small shop in Peoria, IL and hand builds quality stuff. Steve is an easy going guy, but be aware that he has little use for solid state.
-
Hi JLM,
Nice discovery here...I looked at the site...thanks
so much for the link...and read the copy...and I
think you are right!...this looks like an excellent piece
of equipment that could be a perfect go between
from the CD/dac to a stand-alone amp...if impedance
issues are keeping things from working properly...
I wonder if Steve has created a new kind of preamp...
this should fit Dan's idea of less-is-more very nicely...
I am very tempted to get it and see what it could do
for my own set up...however I suspect now...after thinking
about it...that my pentoid amp with its 12AX7 type output tubes
made by JJ/Tesla may be doing exactly that for the sound
I am hearing...of course I am guessing...something I should
not do given my limited knowledge about such things...
I am working with Vinnie on an upgrade of the ClariT
based on Dan's own evolving iterations..and this may
become an important part of the equation...
Again, thanks JLM, I have definitely placed that product
on my list to explore more deeply in the near future
thanks to you...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
Hi Richard
I read your post on the "tweeter" forum and figured this is the best place to reply.
I'm currently using a Fi X 2A3 (configured as an integrated amp with 3 inputs and a volume control but using it as a power amp only) with the Magnaquest upgraded output transformers to drive my Super 3Rs with Louis's tweeters and a REL Storm III subwoofer. I don't have any experience with the Fi 2A3 Stereo or Mono amps.
Yes, there is a vestigal hum even with the upgraded transformers, but it's only really apparent when there's no signal. When music is playing it's inaudible.
I find it to be the best SET I've had in my system by a mile. I've had a BEZ T3B amp (a Chinese-made 300B stereo amp) as well as the Almarro A205-A (which I really liked). While the Fi had the lowest rated power (3.5 W/ch) it sounds the most powerful. It's more extended at the frequency extremes and projects a bigger, better soundstage from the speakers. It is unfazed by the 92dB sensitivity of the 3Rs, at least in my smallish room (12" x 17" or so).
The other thing I like about the Fi is having the ability to drop in 45 output tubes. You lose some output (it puts out approximately 2 W/ch) but I like the fact that I can experiment. I tried some old Sylvania 45s in the amp and really liked what I heard. With either tube (2A3 or 45) the sound is dynamic while maintaining the wholeness of the sound.
Finally, for grins I tried my EAR 509 IIs on the 3Rs. They are 100 W mono tube amps. It was nice, but with the Omega speakers I prefer the Fi. The sound and music was more "alive", if that makes sense.
I find it interesting that you use the Clari-T, as I'm planning on trying one in the future, probably after I sell one or 2 of my other amps... It seems to have almost perfect synergy with high-efficiency, single-driver speakers.
I hope this helps.
Tralfaz
-
I have read about the Zbox on the Decware site. I get the feeling that you really need the Zbox and a preamp to get the ideal sound. I have a lot of trouble discerning what exactly the difference between the Zbox and a pre-amp is, but Steve seems to state that the Zbox is there to improve the sound of the source. He never mentions it as a pre-amp replacement.
-
I'm guessing the Zbox is a tubed buffer stage. Basically designed to increase the mA output of the cd player or electrical pressure. Just a guess though :?: . This should tighten the bass and make the sound more dynamic.
-
It's a tube buffer, summed thru one tube. It is not a revolutionary design. Musical Fidelity has one as well.
Looks nice, but maybe an active pre amp is ultimately more effective. I like the ZBox tho, and it should be interesting to see how it shakes out.
-
Elsewhere at AC is a thread that is discussing similar issues.
There I recently suggested that a stand alone stereo tube output stage with adjustable output level may be the answer. It would become a cathode follower when added to any line level source. Installed between player/DAC and the Clari-T it would take care of any impedance mismatches and replace the Clari-T volume control. For $400 (plus two more sets of interconnects) Decware has just such a beast:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/zbox.htm ...
musical fidelity came out w/a tubed buffer stage years ago, the x10-d. one f/s on agon right now.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1120685615
i have never tried one, but a friend of mine got one to use w/his sirius digital radio. now, at least, it's ok for background music, where before, it would give me a headache after thirty minutes or so... (no negative reflection on the x10-d - digital radio SUCKS!) at the same time the x10-d came out, a small company released the ase z-man tubed buffer stage. this unit was actually reviewed:
http://www.soundstage.com/greg12.htm
i have two of these that i think are great for tunas & cdp's. i did a coupla easy mods on them & installed good nos tubes, which helped quite a bit. (i have not tried one on digital, since i started using my modded art di/o a while back; i have recently thought about giving one of 'em a go here...) supposedly the z-man is more neutral than the x10-d, but as i said, i've never tried the m-f unit in my system. and, m-f now has a new tube buffer stage - the x-10v3
http://www.musicalfidelity.com/mf/en/Products/SmallX/SX10V3
and, kailin audio also makes one, the mu-1 - i bought on new on an a-gon auction for ~$180 shipped, from the usa distributor. it also works well. i have yet to a-b it w/my z-man, tho. also, i am awaiting some nos tubes for it to replace the junk chinese tubes that came w/it. perhaps it will sound even better then... there's one on ebay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3280&item=5772715539
it's kinda cool looking, imo:
(http://www.outlet-audio.com/simg/4266.jpg)
none of these units have a wolume pot, tho... preamp is needed, or wolume pot on the source.
i have also found the z-man to be a worthwhile improvement between solid state preamp and solid-state amp...
doug s.
-
also, since this thread is about set amps, while i don't have a lot of experience w/set amps, i *do* have a pair of audio mirror set amps that i like a *lot*. these are based upon the 6c33c tube that other well-known (and infinitely more expensive) products like bat & lamm also use. these are relatively high-power for set amps - 40wpc. they retail for ~$2300. (i got mine quite a bit cheaper used! :) )
(http://audiomirror.com/img/b33_800.jpg)
audio mirror also makes a pair of 20w set amps for ~$1700, based upon the 6as7g tubes...
(http://audiomirror.com/img/P4080033_800.jpg)
http://audiomirror.com/
doug s.
-
Doug,
Now you're talking! And apparently the Lamm 2.2 sounds eerily similar to the totally tweaked out ClariT, according to an owner of both. :lol:
World without End. Alpha~Omega. Can't afford the $20,000 Lamms? Get a full-out ClariT for that SET sound. :lol:
-
Hi Doug,
Nice piece of research...you seem to have fleshed
out and covered the field of what is available with
an extraordinary thoroughness...
The Kailin looks awesome!!!! Someone did a really
kitsch retro/post-modern design execution on it...
Please keep us posted if you get the chance to
compare the three buffer stages...the X-10d, the
Z-man and the Mu-1...
So...my understanding of what the buffer stages do
is to effect the impedance of the signal from the source...
lets us say the CD player...so that the amp is seeing a
signal strength that is most optimally compatible with what
the amp likes in order to translate the signal with the least
"stress" to its operation...is this correct?
And this is different from the "gain" of an active preamp in
the sense that the preamp boosts the signal more dynamically?
Or is the difference more subtle than that?
Warm regards -Richard-
-
which pre are you referring to ..the space tech. and if what model..thanks
-
Hi Kbuzza,
hummmm...a recapitulation may be in order here...
1. JLM suggested the Decware Z box with adjustable
output level
2. I wondered if it was a kind of simplified less-is-more preamp
3.JeffB suggested it was not based on his conversation with Steve
4.GHM suggested that the Z box was a tubed buffer stage
5.DMason agreed and mentioned that an earlier iteration was
designed by Musical Fidelity
6. Doug presented 3 models that all performed the same function
7. I asked what the difference was between a stand alone buffer stage
that controls impedance and a preamp
8. You are asking which preamp?
My question is generic...any preamp...as a conceptual
idea...not a specific product...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
-Richard- ,
When I was at a past Rave, and John had his Omega speakers there, the sweetest sound I heard that day was when they were paired with the Sophia Baby amp... the last thing that we listened to that day. And if bought used...a great buy. [/list:u]
(http://www.audionote.com.sg/products/amplifier/sophia/baby-01.jpg)[/list:u]You'll notice a volume control...just add player and speakers, and your set. Works for me !! :) [/list:u]Info link... http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/sophia_baby_e.html [/list:u]Audiogon For Sale listing... http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1118193712[/list:u]
-
Hi Lonewolf...I cannot thank you enough for your kindness
in pointing me to audiogon for sale threads...first for Ron
Wellborn's 300B suggested by Scott F. and now for the
Sophia Baby amp...both amps have been very well received
and much talked about...thanks so much for your help...I am
seriously looking at them...
Also thanks Brady for insights about your 2A3 in comparison
with your 300B...you have seriously made me rethink...along
with Dan, who obviously agrees with you on this....the whole
2A3 choice for my Omega speakers...and I am definitely leaning
toward the 300B now as a top choice as the tube SET amp I
should be considering...
Also thanks Tvyankee, for your suggestion and link to the Opera
series of amps...reminds me a bit of Don Garber's Fi series...
with, in this case, the tubes sticking out in the back...like something
one would expect to find on the original Star Trek series...operated
by Spock to contact the Klingons...I especially liked their 300B design...
very industrial...clean...Bauhaus...Dada...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
Your welcome -Richard-...too bad you don't live closer...I'd "loanwolf" you mine for a listen. Good luck in your search !!! :thumb:
-
Hi Tralfaz,
Your AC name conjures a great deal of associations...
like a good puzzle, or secret code, or metaphor...
OK...it is getting late and I am getting tired enough to
start to imagine things...
Thanks so much for your overview of your Fi amp...the Fi X2A3
configured as an integrated amp...very interesting, honest and
well thought out...
For AC members who may not be entirely familiar with what most
of the Fi amps look like..imagine looking down on an X shape as
it rests on a surface...each space between the X configuration is
filled with the amps vital parts...so that the tubes, the transformer,
and other important "internal" parts actually are placed in these
"open" spaces creating a strange yet altogether very satisfying
"design"...original...self-contained...definitely Bauhaus/industrial...
sexy in the best sense of that idea...almost like a scientific experiment
one might see produced from a college physics department...this
configuration allows for the shortest distances between components
possibly ever conceived...and finally, his design is completely convincing...
Don Garber is a legend...he makes his amps by hand and does not give
them out to be produced like almost every SET amp maker currently
in business...
Don actually "invented" the SET movement single handedly...he opened
an "audio shop" in downtown SoHo in New York city...I think at first he
repaired older tube amps...then he began to invent his own...based on
earlier design configurations...but refining things a great deal as he went
along...he used his ears to figure things out...not just "measurements"...
His store attracted many audiophiles that were intrigued with his SET
designs...he began to sell them directly from his store....and many
future innovators inspired by Don's designs were placed on the path
to creating their own designs...his store became a hangout and mecca
for American designers of SET amps and in a very real sense Don created
a renaissance for the re-emergence of American SET designs...
He is still making his amps...and they are always well received...and he is
still working on new designs...a great original elder American designer...
in Japan he would probably be a "National Treasure"...we Americans do
not appreciate our designers or artists they way they do in Japan and other
countries...too pre-occupied with movie stars and athletes...
The wealth of talented American innovators is staggering...I would like
to see us as a culture give all of them some recognition...some form of
"award"...after all the Swedish give the Noble prize...OK we have the
Pulitzer prize but can't we expand that a bit to include designers and
artists...including designers of "industrial" products like audio gear
for example? OK enough of that...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
Hi Lonewolf,
"...too bad you don't live closer...I'd "loanwolf" you
mine for a listen..."
What a lovely offer...I sincerely wish I did live near you...
then I could give a really good listen to your set up
as well...
I mean this as a theoretical idea mind you...I am quite mad
about Ojai...with its spiritual energies saturating every blade of grass...
every flowers colorful radiance...
The mountains speak to you here...their low earthen voices carried
by the wind...the clouds rest wearily in the mountains embrace...
you can hear them whispering in the early morning...in the descending
twilight...
Here the crows are smarter than men...their complex language emerges
incorporeal from the shadows of the swaying trees...
The noble horses throw their tails in the air and stamp the dry dusty ground
showing their supreme indifference to our frenetic lives...
The rains pour down like nectar greening the hills into a lush blooming...
Today on my walk down the rough path to the river bed I passed a tree
that was receiving a new hive of bees...the bees swarmed the aperture
in the trees trunk...climbing over each other to form their new complex
cellular home..their loud buzzing filled the quiet air with a deep and rich
resonating hum...I lingered there and watched them busy at work...
I became the bee...the tree...the hum...there was no separation...
no me and them...only one movement...one expression of life...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
A friend and I did some listening test this past week with a couple of buffers. He uses an active tubed preamp(EE MiniMax). We hooked a BVaudio SR-10 between the cd player and the preamp. The definition of the instruments increased and the highs sounded better tamed.
Next we hooked a second BvAudio between the preamp and the amplifier.
WoW at the difference..bass got extremely tight. I would say it's as tight as I've heard in this system.
I also tried this on my reciever between the sub outputs and the sub's inputs.
The difference is night and day. With the buffer my gain level is set at 0 dB with tons of force. Without the buffer and the gain set at plus 10 dB. I still couldn't match the forcefulness with the buffer in the loop.
Buffers may not work in every system ..but I think they will work in most. Since opamps/buffers are made to a price point in most equipment. They don't always have the current that's needed to drive the interconnects. Just like owning an amplifier that runs out of steam on a pair of speakers. The sound can really get bad.
As always Richard has a way with words! :o
Definitely in a league of his own. :D
-
Hi Doug,
Nice piece of research...you seem to have fleshed
out and covered the field of what is available with
an extraordinary thoroughness...
The Kailin looks awesome!!!! Someone did a really
kitsch retro/post-modern design execution on it...
Please keep us posted if you get the chance to
compare the three buffer stages...the X-10d, the
Z-man and the Mu-1...
So...my understanding of what the buffer stages do
is to effect the impedance of the signal from the source...
lets us say the ...
hi richard,
my understanding is that buffer stages deliver the signal at a lower impedence, making for an easier load for the preamp (or amp, if yure not using a preamp). being tubed, of course, yust adds that li'l smoothing effect that those of us who like tubes can appreciate. :wink:
not sure i will ever borrow my friends' x10d for a comparison, but it may happen. perhaps i shouldn't base my judgments on what others say, but when folk say they are more coloured than the z-man, i kinda lose interest in comparing... at some point i will likely compare the z-man to my mu-1, but at this point i can unequivocally state that the mu-1 is extremely uncoloured sounding. also, mention of space-tech reminded me that they offer a slew of buffer stages, as well as conwentional preamps. you can find them here, ranging in price from $400 to $2000. $2k for a buffer stage?!? yikes!!!
http://www.space-tech-lab.com/BufferPage.html
doug s.
-
Hi Doug,
My first digital amp was the Carver 1600...which I
thought was the cat's meow when I first started using
it...Jesse, Dan, and Matt had already figured out that
a paradigm shift was occurring in audio technology...
and on the cheap!!! Of course there were expensive
examples of this technology...but here was a reasonably
priced "accident"...the Carver Professional amp was
meant to be used by musicians for stage work...not even
considered for audio buffs as their main home unit...
it had several op amps that degraded the sound and
several audio services offered moded versions...
I needed a preamp to use the thing since the built-in
volume control was terrible...and I opted for a passive
device...soon it became apparent to me that the Carver's
high frequency range was glassy and edgy...to bring it
under control I began to look for a tube preamp...
Dan with his hawk eyes spotted Albert's/Space Tech Labs
QA-001 preamp on Audiogon for considerably less than a new one
was going for (new $400.) and I purchased it...as usual Dan did his
homework and was able to refer me to several posts that claimed the little
thing stood up to highly touted pre's costing loads more money...
It helped a bit...but the Carver has a mind of his own...nothing
could tame that brut! And the mod by Eighth Nerve killed the amps
potency and "drive" and bass authority...it was also a rather unpleasant
experience working with them...As its reputation soared so did its price
and I sold it for what I purchased it for...which helped finance
my Omega speakers...
Albert is a very fine designer...he has more amp iterations than
Ben and Gerry have flavors of ice cream...but he apparently knows
what is doing...of course it would be nice if Albert could reign-in
his tendency to sell you more than you need...but he has to earn
a living too and perhaps he is right that his more expensive stuff actually
sounds better...but that is not always the point is it? Budget constraints
are real and should be an important factor when he makes recommendations...
not a big concern however...
And of course you are right, Doug...he is yet another designer who is
making buffer stages that may just be the magic that would allow
Vinnie's ClariT...in stock version anyway...to match the impedance
anomalies between various CD/dac players and his amp...if the system
seems to be calling for it...I realize that there are many many owners of
the stock ClariT that are thrilled with what they are hearing and many
are seasoned audio buffs who know what they are listening for and to...
Thanks for your careful overview of what may become an increasingly
important addition to our signal chain...especially with digital amps...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
HI GHM,
You are good scientist...great work!!!
A really first rate experimentation into the potential
for a buffer stage to tighten things up and focus the
signal for improved resolution...
You have presented us with an invaluable experience
that can help to consider the usefulness of these devices
in our systems...
If you have any links to the DVaudio SR 10 it would be
very helpful...
Thanks for sharing this information with us...and any other
insights you have would be deeply appreciated...
Warm regards -Richard-
-
re: digital amps, i am presently enjoying a stock sharp sd-ex111, so i know a li'l bit about this, too! :wink: certainly sounds way better than it has any right to sound, especially considering it cost me ~$90 shipped. :) it doesn't need buffer stage help, tho - my modded melos preamp feeds it yust fine. i got my set amps back from audio mirror three weeks ago (updated to latest spec so i can check bias w/o removing the underside cover), and i still haven't re-connected them, as i am enjoying the sharp yust fine! we'll see what i think when i decide to re-connect the set amps. i can tell you this much, tho. when summer heat comes, i will likely use the sharp regardless of how much better (if any) the set's are. they idle along at 360w *each* - one reason to prefer digital amps! :wink:
it's the tunas (and mebbe my dac?) that i like to use buffer stages for... but, as i mentioned prewiously, when my pre was out for updates, the buffer stage certainly helped s/s & passive pre's, even when feeding tubed amps...
re: the bvaudio buffer, i found this rewiew:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bvaudio3/sr10.html
a link to their site:
http://www.bvaudio.com/
doug s.
-
Hi Doug,
I read the review you were kind enough to provide
a link for of the BVaudio SR-10 Sound Refiner...
written by Mike Healey...rather inconclusive...seems
it does not work in systems that already have a fully
fleshed out midrange...
His conclusion:
"...Who should investigate the Sound Refiner? Anyone whose
music system could use a boost in midrange fullness and dynamics
(particularly in the lower frequencies) or a little extra smoothness..."
This is really sound shaping isn't it...which is quite alright in and by itself...
The future of audio resides in sound shaping that is easy, cheap, built-in
to the equipment, not dependent on computers, and extremely user friendly...
That is what we tweakers crave...although I for one do not especially enjoy
endless tweaking of components...yet I understood from first hand experience
that to make magic happen one must be very pragmatic and dogmatic in
pursuing the details of any techno-strategy...
That is what we are doing isn't it when we replace stock components with
super components like Black Gate capacitors or the endless parade of upgrades
we all find so invaluable in order to get our systems to move to a higher level
of resolution and richness of the musics harmonic structure we know is
there...hidden and embedded in our CD's?
We who are avid members of AC have become designers ourselves in a
very real sense and in absolute terms...we try to second guess where the
blocks are in our systems to allow them to open up and give us the magic
we crave...and we are willing to purchase an endless stream of products
in our pursuit for the sound we know is possible but not necessarily
evident...until we locate it through our trial and error experimentation...
I am not saying there is not a certain measure of fun in this...
We were all hunters after all...stalking our game with cunning and
patience and skill...our tribe depended on our abilities in the hunt in order
to survive...at least some of the time...during growing season we collected
everything nature gave to us freely and in abundance...roots, seeds,
tubers, leaves, fruits, certain green stems, wild vegetables, including later
our own cultivated crops...but after the fierce period of the ice age where we
hunted huge dangerous animals in large hunting groups, were nature was
buried under the ice...our hunting skills still gave us the sustenance we needed
and was often the difference between life and death...Dad was a provider in the
realist sense imaginable then...
Now we have all been diminished to consumers...degraded by corporate
forces that have co-opted our lives and placed us under their regime...all
very hush hush mind you...a subliminal game going on of hidden agendas...
So what has happened to the hunter?
He has gone underground...temporarily...and re-emerged as an audiophile!
And so we hunt for the sound that will take us back to the zone...the mysterious
places we still remember in our collective unconscious as a sacred dwelling...
it is none other than the earth as it once was...alive! and beneficent! overflowing
with life and mystery!
And so it is not surprising that we spend whatever time it takes to read and study
and hone our skills for research and development in order to find and locate
where the magic is in our musical life...
Why?...because we must continue to practice our hunting skills...we must keep
that part of our masculine life intact...that is what we are...that is our birthright
as providers for the tribe...now retranslated into a "hobby"...and that is why we
often find ourselves in conflict with our wives or girl friends over this hobby...
because we sense that there is something inherently masculine in our
investigations...and there is!
It is the hunter hunting...and we will catch our game...
Warm regards -Richard-
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Richard said
" Why?...because we must continue to practice our hunting skills...we must keep
that part of our masculine life intact...that is what we are...that is our birthright
as providers for the tribe...now retranslated into a "hobby"...and that is why we
often find ourselves in conflict with our wives or girl friends over this hobby...
because we sense that there is something inherently masculine in our
investigations...and there is!"
That is a mouthful and absolutely true! I think I'll start a thread inviting female audiophiles ( if there are any out there) to please come forth and share their opinions.
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Richard I'm more of a tweaker and dreamer than a scientist :lol:
Yeap I read that review also. It was very inconclusive.
I've tried the little unit in two very different systems. Single drivers and Planar hybrids both with plenty of midrange. One with a passive the other with active tube preamp. It was very easy to hear what the unit was doing in either system. My friend like it so much..he bought one.That's how we were able to use two in the same system.
The experience with it has convinced me to try battery powered buffers in the signal path. This will be a first for me. Never heard or seen this done before. The little ClariT has sent me on the hunt. I miss my little ClariT dearly. My Omegas and Modded Toshiba also...hopefully all will return to me soon.
Everthing is going through a metamorphic change including the Omegas.
I've become addicted to the transparency of a passive.Thanks to the ClariT.
I'm trying to get the good side of an active preamp without the abundance of components in the signal path.Which seem to mask a tad bit of the information on the disc IMHO.
None will be the same when they return... After it all returns I will take
a couple of pics.No one will believe this new amplifier used to be my ClariT. :o
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Of course Fabaudio, but first let me say a word or two
(me say a word or two?) about what has happened to the
classic female role since the 9 thousand year period of the increasing
hegemony of the state "culture"...the mega state... has broken down
our original human model of the "complete" women and the complete
man...our intact nature that had powers and energies we can only
dream about today...
First...according to the latest anthropological studies...women were most
certainly the great inventors of what we have come to think of as our "culture"...
They invented the spade and the hoe...they made art....they domesticated
plants through the careful application of the scientific method which includes
the hyberdizing of plants into larger and more complex species...
they invented the use of ceramics...in many cultures it is/was the women
who built the shelters/homes, founded and developed the skills for weaving
and making cloth from animal skins...
So much of what we have come to think of as the root of our civilization
was brought into this world through the skilled hands of women...
and without their domestication of plants we would not be here now...
Men made certain tools, made art, weapons, hunted and set traps...
It is now understood that even the hunt...and we are speaking of the
period after the ice age with huge hunts conducted by large groups
to bring down huge dangerous animals...women participated in a
group hunt effort...especially in corralling animals...like lions for example...
into specific areas where the hunters could better control them...
However...even though there were many instances where men and
women shared responsibilities...such a teaching children the skills
of survival...or hunting...or tool making...or nurturing of children...
there seems to be strong evidence that men and women divided
their responsibilities for the sake of family life...
It made sense for women to actively collect and hyberdize wild plants while
they cared for young children while the men went out to hunt...for example...
Both men and women were Shaman...that is clear...both had great spiritual
powers...and most tribal cultures...our ancestors...had women and men
who acted as keepers of the laws...or wisdom...or shamanic powers...
were spiritual guides and all the rest of it...
However the tribal cultures of the our collective past were shaped by
women...and that is why peace was the rule of order...not that there
was not internecine wars or conflicts...there were...but they were
not the rule of order of that long stretch of human life...we are talking
of hundreds of thousands of years here...perhaps millions which seems
more likely...
Then came a shift in that order of human life...about 9000 years ago
men began to break with the need for collective cooperation among
each other and certain men placed their wills against all others and
began to proclaim a higher status for themselves...they began to kill
anyone who challenged their self-proclaimed authority...
In other words a serious break down occurred in the human order that
was up to that time shaped by women...men overthrow women’s place as
the divine principle of life...the female as "model" for human collective
cooperation...and the model for how cosmic life organized itself within
the heavens...
These new psychologically violent men began to reorganize our tribal
culture into mega states...thus the Yellow River cultures of China...
the Nile culture of Egypt...the Tigres and Euphrates culture of Mesopotamia
formed around the deliberate fragmentation of the human model...now
women and men were stripped of their original completeness as human
beings and forced to take specific roles that would make the huge wheel
of the mega state revolve around its self-interest...
And women were disinherited of their former power and important roles
in the tribal society and sequestered into the home to occupy themselves
almost solely as child rearers...
Men were coerced into the fragmented roles of soldier, priest, carpenter,
farmer, merchant, and so on...and with that fragmentation came the great
depression that settled over men and women and is still with us today...
The greater the mega state grew...and they grew to unbelievable proportions
due directly to mass farming which made dependable food resources available
for the first time in human history (that we now know about in any case)...the lower
down this artificial and forced caste system the true human model was thrust down...
And here we are today...still in the grip of the mega state...and we are still trying
desperately to recover our human birth right...to be whole...to be actively involved
in the great mystery without the intermediation of the religions or the state to tell
us how we are supposed to live and think...an even how to make love...
Our natural life has been stripped from us and we are naked and without
redress to claim what was ours by birth right...by these megalomanical
personalities that demand our allegiance or suffer the consequences...
My pointing out that within the quest for a "higher" level of sound reproduction
resides the remnants of our former "nature" is merely to suggest a motive for
our intense involvement as audio hobbyists...and my pointing to the male
role of hunter as now intrinsically lost to us was to use a metaphor...
If we were still operating along tribal lines...the male would be the "keeper"
of the electric "voice" of music owing to our overwhelming involvement in
audio...in other words we would find ourselves doing exactly what we
do now...except women would not be antagonistic...as many men suggest
in these threads...and women would have their own archetypal roles that
men would have to respect in their turn...
As it is we are at war with each other because our archetypal roles are
no longer clear and there is great confusion everywhere...the break down
of the family is part agenda of corporate forces that want to control and
dominate us...and part the evolution into the next "order" of the human
family which must be determined and understood...and this in the face of
the upcoming appearance among us of Robots, Clones, Artificial
Intelligence with its presence everywhere and in everything, and god
knows what else..."we ain't seen nothing yet"
Women must regain their power and role as spiritual beings...men will
not give it to them...our egos are too underdeveloped at this time...
so they must fashion it themselves from what is now available to them...
which they are certainly doing...the trick is to do it without waging a war
against men...but to work with them in cooperation...that takes enormous
maturity on the part of men and women...and I do not see that kind of
maturity yet...so I guess we are in for further conflict and suffering on that
account...
One more thing...I hate the idea of men using high powered rifles to kill
animals in the wild...for sport...Deb and I are both archers and we use
the traditional bow...not for killing mind you...but to practice the zen of archery
for its own sake...
Killing animals with powerful weapons such as high powered rifles is
cowardice...let them go out and do it with hand to hand combat as my
Native American friends once (I was deeply involved in Native American
spiritual life for some time in the past) did and lets see who wins...
that would be a manly thing to do in my estimation...no?
then leave the wild animals alone and become their protectors instead...
that would also be a manly thing to do...
So now let's bring on the ladies...and let the dialogue continue...
Warm regards -Richard-
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Hello Richard,
I often wonder if you've ever written a book. If you haven't 'tis a crying shame. And i also find it amusing how we can take a thread way,way out there :lol:
Frank
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Hi GHM,
"...Everything is going through a metamorphic change
including the Omegas..."
OK you certainly have my attention...this sounds very
interesting indeed...I am excited to hear what exactly you are
doing and how you are "fashioning" your ClariT and other
audio "instruments" into their new lives...including your Omega's...
I assume since your cabinet was already of larger size than the "standard"
unit that Louie was using for the Grand 8's that you will be able to have
the hemp driver inserted without much trouble...but I am guessing here...
There is a lot we have in common besides the Omega 8's including a
passion for finding the next level of audio magic...
Please keep us informed.
Warm regards -Richard-