Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out

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DBT AUDIO

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Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« on: 13 Jul 2021, 10:22 pm »
Team Spatial Audio Owners,

I have a simple question; exactly where have you settled on aiming your Spatial Audio tweeters for the best overall sound, (1) extreme toe-in to create the “X” in front of your MLP, (2) directly at your ears, (3) in between your ears & shoulders, (4) outside of your shoulders?

For now, I have settled on my X5s AMT drivers to aim between my ears & shoulders and I love what I am hearing at the moment!

I’ve read several speaker placement descriptions measuring by degrees.  That method doesn’t tell me where your tweeters are aiming, so I use a laser measuring tool and that shows me exactly where my tweeters are aiming. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

TomS

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #1 on: 13 Jul 2021, 11:02 pm »
Shoulders for my X-5's. A lot depends on the room, listening position/distance though. My room is quite asymmetric, so a bit wonky.

Desertpilot

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #2 on: 13 Jul 2021, 11:54 pm »
I sit 10 feet from the speakers.  They are 9 feet apart.  I tried "extreme" toe-in.  Unfortunately, for me, I lost the soundstage and depth.  It sounded like all sound was coming from the speakers.  I've tried a lot of toe-in angles.  Currently, my best sound is with a very slight toe-in.  We have three recliners.  The center recliner is the MLP.  Each speaker points to the middle of the left and right recliners.  This may change.  But, for now, I get a wide and deep soundstage and the speakers disappear.

Marcus

sockpit

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #3 on: 14 Jul 2021, 04:09 pm »
M5 Sapphire owner.  Outside the shoulders, and near field in a small room.  They are 6 feet apart, but I'm 5 feet from them. Leaning in on some tracks makes for a wonderful sweetspot without any room interference (in my padded cell).

Audiosaurusrex

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #4 on: 14 Jul 2021, 07:12 pm »
Have the M3 Sapphires approximately 6 feet apart and about 9 feet from my ears. Slight toe-in beyond my shoulders seems to have locked in the soundstage. IMO it matters also what is behind and in front of the speakers for diffusion and absorption. I have diffusion up on the walls behind miss and tweeter and absorption on the floors dead center covering the fireplace and corners of the room.  Behind me is one absorption panel dead center and diffusion on either side. Room measurements are around 28-30db with AC on.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #5 on: 15 Jul 2021, 05:45 am »
Team Spatial Audio Owners,

I appreciate your feedback on your speaker toe-in choices.  I did try the extreme toe-in and I liked it for awhile, but it did seem like the music was coming from the speakers as Desertpilot mentioned in his post.  The goal is for the speakers to disappear!  So, it was clear that my current toe-in of the AMT tweeters aiming between my ears and shoulders was much better, as I mentioned in my original post.  You all brought up some interesting points concerning; room type/dimensions, distance of speakers from each other and from your listening position, and room treatments.  All of these things matter!  I plan to toe-in directly at my head and toe-out slightly beyond my shoulders, again, to make sure I find the most of each range of frequency.  I want to confirm I am hearing the full body of the mids and bass that the X5s have to offer with my final placement.  My speakers are about 8.5' apart and 12' from my seat.  I can't move my seat any closer and I can't move my speakers any further into the room without ruining the decor.  This will change when I build the dedicated listening room!

Thanks all for chiming in!

FullRangeMan

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #6 on: 15 Jul 2021, 02:37 pm »
Does anyone know if the Spatials emit more sound forwards or backwards ?
(not counting the front tweeter).

Desertpilot

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #7 on: 15 Jul 2021, 02:52 pm »
... I can't move my seat any closer and I can't move my speakers any further into the room without ruining the decor.


Of course, décor is important.  But, I would like to know how far your speakers are from your front wall.  Clayton recommends 3.5 feet or more.  Mine are 5 feet from the front wall.  I put my speakers on sliders for a few weeks and experimented with placement.  You should try moving your speakers farther away from your front wall just as a test.  For me, 5 feet gave me amazing depth to the soundstage.  I'm curious about your results and it may help you design your listening room.

Marcus

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #8 on: 17 Jul 2021, 03:46 am »
Of course, décor is important.  But, I would like to know how far your speakers are from your front wall.  Clayton recommends 3.5 feet or more.  Mine are 5 feet from the front wall.  I put my speakers on sliders for a few weeks and experimented with placement.  You should try moving your speakers farther away from your front wall just as a test.  For me, 5 feet gave me amazing depth to the soundstage.  I'm curious about your results and it may help you design your listening room.

Marcus
I have my speakers about 2',10" to 3' from the front wall as they are angled due to toe-in and I know that's an issue.  My scenario is why Clayton advised I should buy absorption panels, which I did.  I can't move them out further into the room without ruining the decor and making them a tripping hazard.  I don't want to keep moving them back in forth every time I have a listening session.  BUT, you make a good point that I should pull them further from the front wall as a test, because we know they are designed to be positioned, 3.5' or more, away from the front wall.  My future dedicated room will allow me to get them 4' to 5' off the front wall, so I'll be good to go in that new space!

Thanks for your suggestion!!

Mr. Big

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #9 on: 17 Jul 2021, 01:51 pm »
The thing is every room is different. Yes, the way out is more depth to the sound but there is more to it than that, weight, body, and tone to the music also must be taken into consideration on speaker setup. Go for a balance because there is no perfection, learn your room, and do the best you can to have some of both. I've had my M3's 30" from the front way they sound good also, 4' and they lost body to the music in my room, lots of detail of course, but that is not how real music sounds. No room is perfect but you got to learn how to get the most out of it. My view is you go close to the front wall and listen for total speaker sounds, bass, mids, and highs, and then you slowly pull them out and see how those areas start to change there will be a spot where you get a great balance of all, then after that, you will notice a loss of that balance that is when you know to go back to where in your room they sounded the best. If just pulling them away from the front wall is all it took, then we all go 3-5' and be done with it. Wish it was that simple. It is a learn-as-you-go process.

abomwell

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #10 on: 17 Jul 2021, 04:51 pm »
The thing is every room is different. Yes, the way out is more depth to the sound but there is more to it than that, weight, body, and tone to the music also must be taken into consideration on speaker setup. Go for a balance because there is no perfection, learn your room, and do the best you can to have some of both. I've had my M3's 30" from the front way they sound good also, 4' and they lost body to the music in my room, lots of detail of course, but that is not how real music sounds. No room is perfect but you got to learn how to get the most out of it. My view is you go close to the front wall and listen for total speaker sounds, bass, mids, and highs, and then you slowly pull them out and see how those areas start to change there will be a spot where you get a great balance of all, then after that, you will notice a loss of that balance that is when you know to go back to where in your room they sounded the best. If just pulling them away from the front wall is all it took, then we all go 3-5' and be done with it. Wish it was that simple. It is a learn-as-you-go process.

I agree with this 100%. There are two other factors to consider: People hear and listen differently. The stereo image is said to be
an illusion created in the brain. (There are some people that can't create it and only hear two speakers playing). So one has to deal with personal perceptions and tastes with setup. Another consideration is the kind of music played. If you listen primarily to classical music, as I do, you might find most recordings too bright and need to adjust toe-in to compensate for that.

Al

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #11 on: 18 Jul 2021, 10:30 pm »
My view is you go close to the front wall and listen for total speaker sounds, bass, mids, and highs, and then you slowly pull them out and see how those areas start to change there will be a spot where you get a great balance of all, then after that, you will notice a loss of that balance that is when you know to go back to where in your room they sounded the best. If just pulling them away from the front wall is all it took, then we all go 3-5' and be done with it. Wish it was that simple. It is a learn-as-you-go process.
Your approach is duly noted and I understand all rooms, electronics, etc., are different and what works for one, may not work for another.  It's good to hear your experience with different positioning of your M3's, as it relates to distances from your front wall, because most speaker owners have traditional box speakers and they don't operate the same as an open baffle/dipole speaker.  I have moved my X5's around enough to have achieved the best sound in this particular room, given my limitation of being able to pull them further out into the room.  Again, when the dedicated listening room is completed, I will have more flexibility with speaker placement!

Thanks!
I agree with this 100%. There are two other factors to consider: People hear and listen differently. The stereo image is said to be
an illusion created in the brain. (There are some people that can't create it and only hear two speakers playing). So one has to deal with personal perceptions and tastes with setup. Another consideration is the kind of music played. If you listen primarily to classical music, as I do, you might find most recordings too bright and need to adjust toe-in to compensate for that.

Al
abomwell, you bring up another good point concerning how people hear differently.  That is huge because we can listen to the same system and come out with totally different opinions about the sound.  I predominantly listen to traditional jazz and it sounds totally different from classical music on my system, so I know what you mean.

Thanks!

dallaire1

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #12 on: 21 Jul 2021, 11:46 am »
I have placed the M3's in a number of places just to measure and listen. I have found 3 feet out from front wall and in my particular room, about 3.5 feet from side walls. I use a little bosch laser pointer for all setup as I can accurately measure all distances in any given direction with ease. I like to set the "but end" of the laser flat against the speaker baffle just above the tweeter and aim the laser at the seating position so I can see where the tweeter is aimed. This works for me really nice. .

I have found with the M3's for "my room" to completely disappear, they are 9ft. apart, 3ft from back wall, 3.3 feet from side walls and 8.9 ft. from the center money seats. I have played with toe-in extensively and have found aiming the tweeters 6 inch's outside of my shoulder's left and right give a pretty amazing presentation. Any more or less I start to lose the "disappearing effect" quickly. I have also had to move my balance control 1 click to the right to get a dead center image. I know my "not" acoustically symmetrical room is causing some anomalies hear and there.

With this configuration I can on a good recording, close my eyes and literally lose the speaker in the room ! I have never had a pair of speakers that could achieve this to the same degree. I don't doubt there are others that will do this, but at what price ?

For me when I think of "world class" it is simply having a speaker that has NO short comings. We all know the descriptive terms used so I won't get into that. Let me just say I think I'm pretty much done buying speakers with the M3's. Now I have to get my room in shape !!
 
Don't forger to enjoy the music.

newzooreview

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #13 on: 21 Jul 2021, 02:02 pm »
I have also had to move my balance control 1 click to the right to get a dead center image.

It sounds like you have things dialed in well, but if you wanted to experiment with getting the image centered, it's greatly affected by the distance of each speaker from the listening position. Likely you are well aware and have experimented with all of this, but just in case: if the image is to the right of center then you are hearing sound from the right speaker slightly before sound from the left speaker. So, to center an image that is slightly shifted to the right, the speaker on the right needs to move a bit farther away or the speaker on the left needs to move a bit closer (e.g., moving the speaker straight away from the wall behind the speaker, maybe just an inch or so). It may not take much movement, especially if you are tweaking the balance on the receiver only slightly.

It's also important to use a test track that has a plain recording of a centered stereo voice. Plenty of test and setup CDs have that. One thing that I found is that music that apparently has a voice in the center can be misleading. There are enough tracks with the voice just slightly to the left or right that I realized I had to use a test track to stop driving myself nuts with it.

Not sure if any of that was useful, but happy listening!  :thumb:

dallaire1

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #14 on: 21 Jul 2021, 04:07 pm »
Thanks, I keep hearing about PS Audios test setup CD ? I used to have a nice test CD they put out years ago I'll have to find. Want to say IASCA ?? Used it for car audio 200 years ago in high school 🙄. I could have something an inch off, l will I'm sure, play with things a bit more... An audiophile usually can't stop tinkering it would seem. Always fun to find even a slight improvement.

I also have Danny's OB subs I have to get built ! Been like a furnace in the garage here in Phoenix !!

abomwell

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #15 on: 3 Aug 2021, 03:49 pm »
Team Spatial Audio Owners,

I have a simple question; exactly where have you settled on aiming your Spatial Audio tweeters for the best overall sound, (1) extreme toe-in to create the “X” in front of your MLP, (2) directly at your ears, (3) in between your ears & shoulders, (4) outside of your shoulders?

For now, I have settled on my X5s AMT drivers to aim between my ears & shoulders and I love what I am hearing at the moment!

I’ve read several speaker placement descriptions measuring by degrees.  That method doesn’t tell me where your tweeters are aiming, so I use a laser measuring tool and that shows me exactly where my tweeters are aiming. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

A dipole can be towed in so that the listener sees the radiation null axis in a wall reflection mirror.

Al

doggie

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #16 on: 3 Aug 2021, 06:43 pm »
A dipole can be towed in so that the listener sees the radiation null axis in a wall reflection mirror.

Could you explain that a bit? Thanks.

abomwell

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #17 on: 3 Aug 2021, 10:52 pm »
If you toe in the speaker so that by placing a mirror on the wall you see the side of the speaker (from the listening chair)on an axis perpendicular to the frontal axis, the cancellation null created by the dipole will eliminate side-wall first reflections directed at the listening chair. You should only be able to see the speaker's side edge in the mirror, not the front or back, if you are looking at the lateral axis. Hope that helps

Cheers,
Al

abomwell

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Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #18 on: 3 Aug 2021, 11:23 pm »
An easy way to do this is to have a friend slide a hand mirror on the side-wall until the edge of the speaker is visible when looking at the mirror from the listening chair. Then adjust the toe-in so that only the side of the speaker, not any part of the front or back, is visible in the mirror. Then you will be looking down the lateral  axis of the speaker through the mirror.. This is only one option for toe in. You may find the results too extreme but the side wall first reflections will be minimized this way.

Al

doggie

Re: Spatial Audio Placement: Toe-in or Toe-out
« Reply #19 on: 4 Aug 2021, 02:05 am »
Thanks. Understood now. I previously used a mirror to find the point of first reflection when I put some panels on the ceiling in front of the speakers. My X5's have MUCH more center fill than my previous single driver box speakers. I think that the AMT driver and it's wave guide do a great job there possibly because they have more directivity.