Newbie question to room treatment.

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Kinger

Newbie question to room treatment.
« on: 4 Feb 2021, 12:42 pm »
Hi all.  Newbie question to room treating here.

After an almost 2 month wait, I finally received my order of 8 244 panels and 3 242 panels from GIK. (Treating an unfinished basement space.)  Worth the wait though as the quality of the panels is certainly solid.

Anyway, after placing panels around the space (and being amazed at how much they cleaned up the sound I was hearing at the LP) I noticed that I felt like some of my soundstage "depth" I had been experiencing pre-panels was gone.  This brought me to thinking......when measuring speaker distance from the front wall (was at 36" before), do I now need to account for the fact that the panels are behind the speakers now and adjust accordingly?  Meaning if it's a 4" panel behind the speakers do the speakers need to potentially need to come out another 4"?

Tyson

Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #1 on: 4 Feb 2021, 02:55 pm »
Yes, pull the speakers out a little more.  Also you may need to mix in some diffusion panels to get better depth. 

JLM

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Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #2 on: 4 Feb 2021, 02:58 pm »
Seems like a lot of panels to start with, but GIK 242/244 panels are the best.  Did you buy a mix of full range and bass trap 244 panels?  (I have six 244 2ft x 4ft full range panels and four 244 2ft x 4ft bass trap panels.)  What are the dimensions of your listening space and the set up?  How do you have them arranged?  What is "the LP" you mentioned?

Thickness of the panels would be secondary to the effects of the panels.  I have my full range panels located at first reflection points of front, side, and back walls and my bass traps straddling the front corners.  They all just sit on the carpeted floor.  My loudspeakers are 5.5ft from the front wall.  My room is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios) and I listen mid-field (about 7ft away with the loudspeakers spread quite wide to expand the width of the sound stage).

Floyd Toole, highly respected acoustician, does not recommend diffusion for home use, although I have three randomly filled tall bookcases on side walls that act as casual/adjustable diffusers. 





JWL.GIK

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Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #3 on: 4 Feb 2021, 03:23 pm »
Hi Kinger, if you were working with one of our designers (me or one of the other guys) I'd get back in touch with them for followup suggestions. They will already have the details about your room & setup which is essential to giving you the most intelligent advice we can.

Apart from that I have a few ideas/suggestions.

First, yes I would keep dialing in the speaker placement. Apart from good imaging, the distance between the back of your speakers and the front wall behind them will have an effect on the bass response, usually appearing as a null in the bass region (often between about 75Hz and 150Hz or so). Moving the speakers closer to and further from the wall will affect this null, so you can test it for yourself (crudely with an RTA device or phone app, more comprehensively with something like REW). Typically best results come either with the speakers right up on the front wall, as close as you can get without touching, OR at least 3-4' away (which isn't usually practical in small rooms). If the speakers are right up on the front wall it's usually better to NOT have a panel behind the speaker, and instead just move the speaker that much closer to the wall, with the panels placed beside the speakers.

Next, make sure you are using panels at the reflection points on the side walls & ceiling. The number of panels in each location can vary depending on the specifics, but I'd be inclined to use 2 244s per side wall, and the 3 242s on the ceiling, for a "cloud" between the speakers and the listening spot. The remaining 244s can go in the corners for now, then if you decide to upgrade the corner bass traps down the road you can repurpose the 244s elsewhere in the room (244s are still GIK's most versatile and cost-effective product).

On another note, 11 panels are nowhere near too much treatment. My room is a small 10x12 bedroom, and I have 6 Soffit bass traps (range limited), 12 Monsters (full range absorption), and 4 Alpha 6As (hybrid absorber/bass trap/diffusors). It sounds wonderful in here, the best small room I've seen (test data) or heard in person. The key is balance, ie, having the right treatments in the right roles. As long as you maintain good balance, and not overdo high frequency absorption with not enough bass trapping or diffusion, then the more panels in the room the better it will sound.

Lastly, giving your ears time to adapt to new setups/treatments is essential. The psychoacoustics of this are complex and very interesting, but we tend to hear anything "new" as "bad" because it's not what we're used to hearing. But as we give it time and listen more, we often start to realize that, hey, things are actually more accurate here, I can pinpoint the location of each instrument in the mix, the bass response is much more accurate, etc. This article on my blog explores this phenomenon.

Good luck with the new setup!

Kinger

Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #4 on: 4 Feb 2021, 04:09 pm »
Thanks all.  Very much appreciated.

Listening space is 19' wide by 40' deep.  The entire basement is 40' deep while my listening position is 13' from the front wall (because I have a pole holding up my house right behind it) so I'm not able to pull it any further back.  My plan of attack (with GIK's assistance) was to put full range 244's at first and second reflection points on the side walls, full range 244's at first reflection points behind the speakers (which again are located 3' forward of that wall) and two more full range behind my listening position even though there really isn't a wall behind me for 20' plus.  Essentially I'm just creating a small listening area of my basement along the short wall of a rectangle basement.  In one corner of the space I already have a GIK bass cube and presently I'm just using two of the 244's stacked together in the other corner.  I have 2 of the 242's above my listening position and plan to place the third up there as well. (Not sure what I was thinking when I only ordered two cloud mounting units.)  Based on your comments JWL.GIK maybe I should be placing the 242's midway between my speakers and my listening position instead of right above it.

Regardless, things definitely sound improved from where I was before considering my walls are bare concrete and my ceiling is exposed floor joists. (I do have carpet laid down in the space.)  Just was curious about the initially perceived loss of soundstage depth.

Cblan1224

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Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #5 on: 11 Mar 2021, 10:45 pm »
Between the echo on my ceiling and the null I get regardless of speaker position, I think I am going to start by filling my 2 problem corners with soffits, then get with gik and go from there. Obviously I'd like to have all those panels that you have, I just have a big problem at a fairly low frequency that I want to work out before taking care of the front, rear, side walls, and ceiling. Looking forward to working with gik! Just got all 11 speakers amped externally, and did a few speaker upgrades. My room is bad. Time for treatment.

Mike-48

Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #6 on: 12 Mar 2021, 05:13 pm »
On another note, 11 panels are nowhere near too much treatment. My room is a small 10x12 bedroom, and I have 6 Soffit bass traps (range limited), 12 Monsters (full range absorption), and 4 Alpha 6As (hybrid absorber/bass trap/diffusors). It sounds wonderful in here, the best small room I've seen (test data) or heard in person. The key is balance, ie, having the right treatments in the right roles. As long as you maintain good balance, and not overdo high frequency absorption with not enough bass trapping or diffusion, then the more panels in the room the better it will sound.
Very interesting post. Any chance of your posting photos and measurements of your own room, as an example of what can be accomplished in a small space? I know I, for one, would be interested, and I expect quite a few others, as well.

pompon

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Re: Newbie question to room treatment.
« Reply #7 on: 12 Mar 2021, 06:12 pm »
10x12 feets room too.

Mix of GIK and DIY panels






Measurement from the listening position (without any EQ)