AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Bryston Limited => Topic started by: john1970 on 28 Jan 2018, 10:42 pm
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Dear Bryston circle,
Not to ruffle any feathers, but I am curious if anyone is using non-Bryson preamps with their Bryston amplifiers. I am considering going down that road and am curious what other AC members are using. My amplifiers are 7B3 and my transducers are Magico S5s. I would prefer to stay with SS for reliability, but am open to all opinions and advice.
Cheers,
John
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Vac sig MKIIa with 28's :thumb:
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14B-squared + ARC LS27 (SS output)
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I've used Adcom (distant past), Van Alstine Tube preamp-no problems with either. I used a BP20 in the past too.
Currently using DeHavilland Ultraverve-works well in my setup
I run 2 zones-4B SST for main speakers (Vandy 3A sigs) and an old 4B for peripherals throughout the house.
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hi john1970, i'm using a BP20 into my 4BSST2 and love it.
although i've been musing about the PS Audio BHK preamp. It has a tube input stage, and class A (MOSFET) output stage.
Never heard it before, but i bet those Magico's would sing with the BHK.
here's a vid of the man himself..Bascom H King.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHl8F9amyY4
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"....one overriding principle has dominated all others when sonic compromise isn’t an option: use of a vacuum tube on the input. The isolation and near-perfect linearity of a well designed vacuum tube input stage cannot be duplicated by solid state means, though many have tried".
“Vacuum tubes are simply more convincing and musically accurate than any other input configuration I have ever tried,” said Bascom.
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I tend to agree :thumb: It's the combination of Vac and SS that's killer.
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"....one overriding principle has dominated all others when sonic compromise isn’t an option: use of a vacuum tube on the input. The isolation and near-perfect linearity of a well designed vacuum tube input stage cannot be duplicated by solid state means, though many have tried".
“Vacuum tubes are simply more convincing and musically accurate than any other input configuration I have ever tried,” said Bascom.
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I tend to agree :thumb:
Disagree :thumb:
james
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here's a vid of the man himself..Bascom H King.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHl8F9amyY4
Good video, thanks for posting.
His workspace looks like my lab!! :lol: :thumb:
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In a secondary system, I have 3BST along with an Odyssey Candela preamp
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Bat 52 SE with 7BSST/2, now Legacy Preamp built for Legacy speakers. Thinking about upgrading to the cubes.
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I use a ~ 20 year old ARC LS 15. I have had several tube audio research pres with no reliability issues. I am not so much of a Tube-o-phile as much as a toggle-switch-o-phile. I love the older pres with the clanking switches
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A good tube preamp is like owning a vintage 1978 450SL or '64 Mustang. Sweet.
:thumb: :singing: :beer: :rock: :dance:
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ARC Ref 5SE with 7B3 amps. I agree that the Vac-tube pre and SS amp combo can be great.
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Love my Coda
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Convergent Audio Technology SL1 Renaissance with 7B3. Really love Tube pre-amp and SS power amp combo.
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Also have an Onkyo Preamp for my surround feeding Bryston 9BSST/2
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Bel Canto Pre 6
Pure analog multichannel amp.
No video switching, no digital processing.
My phono preamp is all tube Hagerman Cornet 2 that I built. Even the rectification is handled by tube. In this case a Bendix 6106 once used in missile guidance systems. Now happily used for peaceful purposes... unless I am playing The Who or Never Mind the Bollocks....
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Various tube preamps (Rogue Audio 66 & Mag 99, Sonic Horizons, Hovland HP-100, Lamm LL2 (can't remember if it was a deluxe but was my favorite of all of them) L2-Ref, ARC LS-26 & Ref 3). I am sure I've left a few off that had extended audition times in my rig.
I've also had a Bryston .5B (first preamp mated to a pre-NRB series 3B amp - my first really decent setup), BP-26 and BP-17 all of which did the job but I'm just someone who prefers tubes in the mix. All were married up to various amps of various generations of Bryston amps dating back to the late 80's though I have never owned a cubed version amp but apparently some do mate tube preamps to cubed amps...
There is no silver bullet so enjoy the ride - its your system, your ears & your wallet
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I did a home auditioned for both the BP26 and the McIntosh C2300 a week apart many years ago and it was a hard decision, but in the end i went with the C2300. I would have been easily happy with the BP26 and i thought it was slightly cleaner over the C2300, but the C2300 had more control over the volume for my setup.
BTW, tube in a preamp last a very long time, so don't think a tube preamp is less reliable...
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Since I only listen to CDs and twof FM classical music stations, I'ved tried to optimize my system for CDs.
I've had a BP6 for several years, and it drives my 4Bsst2 amp with clarity and precision.
IMO, there's a synergy between Bryston Amps and preamps.
Disclaimer: My CDs are all RedBook 16/44.1 Classical, Buegrass and Country discs
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I'm still using a 2001 vintage Parasound Php850 pre. It's a solid state, John Curl, design.
I bought it since I was going to need a pre-amp when replacing my dead Yamaha integrated. I auditioned 2 different Parasound solid state amps (one was 125 w/channel and the other was around 200 watts per channel), a couple of Adcom's ( 5500 and maybe 5800) and a Thx rated 4B ( I think it was an early 4B-ST). I also tried to talk the guy that loaned me the Bryston to loan me his Spectral Imaging amp. He didn't do that. He still powers his big Theils with Goldmund Monoblocks.
At that point, the only thing I was changing was the integrated amp for a pre-amp standalone amp combo. Everything else in the system was the same. With close minimization of variables, the Bryston was the clear winner (and it wasn't even close).
I still use the Parasound pre with my 4B-ST. I do want to get a Bryston pre-amp someday. I just haven't gotten around to it.
HsvHeelFan
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My Schiit Freya tube pre sounds amazing with my 4b3!
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Running Model T active with 7b3's and 4b3's.
Preamp is Esoteric C-03x.
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I know someone using an Ayre pre (couldn’t tell you the model number for the life of me) with his 14 power amp.
Sounds great to me and he seems happy with the combo
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^ Almost anything paired with a 14B sounds great. The squared is one helluva fine amp. :thumb:
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I think I understand what "first party" means in this context....but what is the difference between 2nd party and 3rd party?
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I think I understand what "first party" means in this context....but what is the difference between 2nd party and 3rd party?
who cares? :dunno: As long as it sounds great. :beer:
cheers
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I'm using a Bryston 2.5 SST2 w/a recently purchased Luxman CL38U-SE. Luxman made only 100 of these retro tube preamps for world wide sale. The combo transformed my whole system. :thumb:
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I use a Sovereign Director to send signal to my 4B SST2.
If a Bryston pre makes a Bryston poweramp "sing", a Sovereign Director gives it singing lessons and makes sure it wins every award both in and out of the book. Until you have heard a Bryston poweramp with a Sovereign, you have not heard what a Bryston poweramp actually is capable of.
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I use a Sovereign Director to send signal to my 4B SST2.
If a Bryston pre makes a Bryston poweramp "sing", a Sovereign Director gives it singing lessons and makes sure it wins every award both in and out of the book. Until you have heard a Bryston poweramp with a Sovereign, you have not heard what a Bryston poweramp actually is capable of.
12,000 Euros for an amp that
1. has only SE jacks
2. colors the sound (presumably)
No thanks.
I like my Brystons balanced, neutral, and transparent (which they are in spades).
cheers :thumb:
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I'm basically happy pairing a McIntosh Pre with my two Bryston 7BSST2 Monoblocks.
I have the option-ability of fine tuning sonics with on board tone controls, thus not having to roll hundreds or thousands in cables, or other means to get a likeable sound in any acoustical setting. AFAIK, when setting the tone controls to flat removes them from the circuitry.
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12,000 Euros for an amp that
1. has only SE jacks
2. colors the sound (presumably)
No thanks.
I like my Brystons balanced, neutral, and transparent (which they are in spades).
cheers :thumb:
So it is safe to assume that you, like me, heard the BP26 and the Sovereign Director side by side? I had them both here, compared to the Director the BP26 really is no match.
1: Balanced connections are nonsense for home application.
2: Everything that processes a signal alters it in some way. The sound system that accurately reproduces any sound is still a long way from where we are now. Compared to the Director the BP26 sounds less detailed, less open, less alive.
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So it is safe to assume that you, like me, heard the BP26 and the Sovereign Director side by side? I had them both here, compared to the Director the BP26 really is no match.
1: Balanced connections are nonsense for home application.
2: Everything that processes a signal alters it in some way. The sound system that accurately reproduces any sound is still a long way from where we are now. Compared to the Director the BP26 sounds less detailed, less open, less alive.
12000 Euros more? At that price...it had better surpass BP26. :lol:
Enjoy your fantasies. [You guys should stick to speedskating. Leave quality audio to us Canucks :green:]
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1: Balanced connections are nonsense for home application.
Can you explain more. Is it only for Bryston or in general.
Thanks.
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Hi James,
Did you know here in Italy Bryston has many enthusiasts among audiophiles as well as reviewers..?
Bebo Moroni, for instance, considers Bryston’s preamplifiers as one of the best in the world, and he is a very finicky reviewer and had the best gear out there.
Attached one of his last reviews
Dario in Italy
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=176253)
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I've decide to stick with the BP26 + MPS2 preamp for the next few years. Rumor has it that Bryston is working on a new version of a reference preamp so I'll see what comes down the pipeline over the next few years.
Cheers,
John
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I have had Bryston 7bsst2, and 4bsst2 both on Spectral DMC30S preamps (really dynamic, defined powerful bottom end great highs but not entirely neutral), Threshold Preamps (powerful bottom but a bit white sounding), EMM Labs monitor controller (no comment), Prism Orpheus direct to amp (very nice), friend's BP26 (the closest to the orignal source of the bunch), and last but not least the BP25 (also very close to the source once Mike Pickett helped me sort it out). I have had no premium tube preamps on the Brystons, so have nothing to say there.
I do have a little Pas 4 from Van Alstine but it was not in the league of the other beasties. I would love to try one of his upper line preamps, or , maybe, a Prima Luna one.
Could live with any of them. Preamps get rotated to keep power caps happy. Spectral is the winter preamp (runs rather warm!).
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I'm using a Classé CP-800 preamp-DAC. It has a crossover for stereo subs, PEQ, and tone controls. I don't believe that feature set is available in any combination of Bryston gear.
I'll add that I heard the BP-26 in a dealer demo with one of the SST2 amps (when they were current). The system sounded just superb. Can't go without PEQ and subs in my much smaller room, though.
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I'm using a Classé CP-800 preamp-DAC. It has a crossover for stereo subs, PEQ, and tone controls. I don't believe that feature set is available in any combination of Bryston gear.
I'll add that I heard the BP-26 in a dealer demo with one of the SST2 amps (when they were current). The system sounded just superb. Can't go without PEQ and subs in my much smaller room, though.
Hi Mike
Whats PEQ?
james
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PEQ
Regardless where your speakers, subwoofer(s) and listening chair are in relation to each other, there will likely be room modes that can only be addressed with equalization. In most rooms, the three primary dimensions contribute to three low frequency modes where the room actually increases the level causing peaks at those frequencies. The CP-800 offers parametric equalization to help address these real world problems. Performed in the digital domain, these high quality filters allow optimization of low frequency response without adding analog circuitry to the L&R channel signal paths.
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I do all my eq in the player, in the computer, or if its complex, I send it to the daw, and thence from there out to the dac. The filters available to me there give me time domain stuff, paragraphic down to .001db (great for tuning around cables and such), and controlled introduction of added harmonics if I want...and if I don't want, I hit the "off" switch. For me, the preamp only needs to be a volume control and a switch. And only the volume control for gain staging, since the digital is done in 64 bit math.
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Hi, James
As David C said, PEQ is parametric equalization; in this case, in the digital realm.
As Mike678 pointed out, PEQ can be done by some player programs, which also can control volume transparently if the system's gain structure is set up right. I use such a setup in my desktop system via USB.
Both methods work well.
Mike
P.S. I'm loving, loving, loving my 4B3. It is a really outstanding product! After trying about five different amps in and above its price range, I picked the 4B3.
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PEQ
Regardless where your speakers, subwoofer(s) and listening chair are in relation to each other, there will likely be room modes that can only be addressed with equalization. In most rooms, the three primary dimensions contribute to three low frequency modes where the room actually increases the level causing peaks at those frequencies. The CP-800 offers parametric equalization to help address these real world problems. Performed in the digital domain, these high quality filters allow optimization of low frequency response without adding analog circuitry to the L&R channel signal paths.
Thanks
james
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I use a ARC SP-9 pre with my 4BST and is is heavenly!
Cheers, Doug
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I use a Bryston BP-26 as my main preamp.
I add in a VAC Standard preamp as a deluxe 'tube buffer' for my digital sources.
My new Marantz SA-10 I have RCA to the VAC and straight via balanced to the BP-26.
I almost always use through the VAC as it adds something warm I like to the sound.
Then for my second turntable, a Kuzma I use another preamp just for it's 3 tube phono section, Audio Research Sp-15 to the BP-26, as if the ARC is just a phono preamp
Both of the spare preamps bought used for around $1500 each.
I own a third spare preamp a Onkyo Grand Integra P309 I found at Goodwill for $20
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Nice goodwill shopping Elizabeth! A good pal of mine - who lives in the back 40 in central British Columbia is often finding gems at second hand shops - especially old speakers and CD players. last time i was over at his place i think he was using an old sony playstation as the source, a Shiit DAC and some vintage speakers and it sounded deadly - for probably less than $300-400 all in.
After boasting about my Mini T's for a few years, he eventually bought a pair Bryston Mini A's and is loving them. Now he's scoping out options for a 3B or 4B to match. I think he's planning to use his Musical Fidelity integrated as a preamp - and he's loving the Shiit DAC so don't think a BDA1 or 2 is in the cards yet.
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Hi all Bryston users, as a new member from HK (4B3 user) to the Bryston family, I am also thinking of using a third part pre amp. But the question is what is thinking now is a passive pre amp. And there is no discussion for a passive amp. So write here to see the advice from all the users here.
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Passive preamps may, or may not work out. Mostly it depends on the source equipment output.
Some sources have the power to drive a passive. Some do not. So it is a hit or miss affair usually.
Often a source does not have enough to make the sound great through a passive.The sound becomes thin and dynamic suffer.
So if you can try out the equipment before purchase, to see if it works well with your stuff. that would be ideal.
But remember if you change sources later, the new source may not work as well with a passive.
I own five preamps all active. and enjoy each of them.. latest is a used Conrad Johnson ACT2 addition.
So I am totally in the active preamp school.
There are tons of nice used preamps always out there. Finding the best deals.. just takes a bit of time. and luck.
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I tried a couple of inexpensive passive preamps or attenuators and did not like the result. As I have a Dayton OmniMic2 system, I measured what happened. When gain was reduced, low frequencies were cut relative to high frequencies. This was clearly audible, as it was a matter of decibels, and the sound became less accurate.
I suspect that what I saw was interaction between the output impedances of the source and attenuator (passive preamp), the input impedance of the amp, and the balanced interconnect cables; still, I am not an electronics professional, so that is a guess. IMO, it is particularly important to try a passive before you buy, and if possible, measure the result so you can interpret what you hear. What sounds like "clarity" at first may prove in the long run to be reduction of warmth and bass.
Despite many positive reviews of passive units, I've never seen anyone else measure the results to ascertain what their side-effects might be.
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Dear Bryston circle,
Not to ruffle any feathers, but I am curious if anyone is using non-Bryson preamps with their Bryston amplifiers. I am considering going down that road and am curious what other AC members are using. My amplifiers are 7B3 and my transducers are Magico S5s. I would prefer to stay with SS for reliability, but am open to all opinions and advice.
Cheers,
John
Only if you desire tube coloration meaning a harmonically richer presentation. I would guess using Magico with Bryston some richness may be required. Conrad Johnson and Bryston mate very well.
If it were me I would use a Bryston preamp and consider a harmonically rich DAC or server. If TT is used a Koetsu or Miyajima cart. Bryston gear and Magico are true to the source. Condider source.
charles
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Thanks for the reply. The replies showed that i need to pay attention and be careful if i really try a passive amp for my 4B3. In fact, I audited Bespoke (a British passive amp) and was attracted by its performance. So put it on the list.
For these few weeks, just borrowed Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi for home audition. And it sounds great and work well with 4B3. So once again, before making any decision, need some more time for selection and considerations.
Thanks for the advice.
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Using a c2300 with great results
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=184150)
Getting organized ,taking some time
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The total results will vary, of course, depending on ALL one's associated equipment, but Bryston power amps perform well with just about any preamp that doesn't have excessively high output impedance.
I've used, in no particular order, the following non-Bryston preamps with the 7B-SST2, 4B-SST2, 3B-SST, and 4B-ST (have also used the BP-25 and BP-26):
— PBN Audio Olympia LXi
— Crane Song Avocet IIA monitor controller (a line-stage preamp with internal DAC and extra circuitry for studio-specific functions)
— Grace Designs m905 monitor controller (as previous)
— Esoteric C-03x
— Boulder 1012
— Krell Evolution 202
— Ayre K-1xe
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Use any preamp that you want to (the quieter, the better). At the level of Bryston and above, it is mostly "man jewelry" with incremental (mostly inaudible) differences costing thousands of dollars. Since I am a silicon guy, I have little regard for tube gear
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bapcha - have to disagree with you there. i believe each piece of electronic gear (regardless of price point) carries its own sonic signature based on its design elements. And I would argue that an experienced listener would hear significant variations in sonic presentation based on swapping out preamps from different manufacturers.
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Sure. I'll give you "sonic signature". Different, yes - but "better"? My take is that if you enjoy your music - played by a $5 radio, it is a better scenario than nitpicking on <fill in whatever>
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Sure. I'll give you "sonic signature". Different, yes - but "better"? My take is that if you enjoy your music - played by a $5 radio, it is a better scenario than nitpicking on <fill in whatever>
:thumb:
Sonic signature = the sound of my bank accountant laughing as $$ is spent on hi-end.
Glenn Gould was moved to tears when he listened to a classical piece on his crappy radio. But then, he's a (iconic) musician....
:popcorn:
cheers
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Maestro :D :D :D
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I use the new preamp from Swedish Sybarite Audio together with 7b3 (and 28B), the model is no1622. Like the Bryston preamps (I also have a Bp-25 and a BP-26) it is fully discrete and also have a RIAA section for both MC and MM.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1903/31783132118_ff83fbd890_b.jpg)
"Sybarite Audio No 1622 preamplifier - THD versus frequncy at different loadings (150, 600 and 100 k ohms). Thanks to the all discrete, class A circuitry, the No 1622 output stage is remarkably load tolerant - not even the punishing 150 ohms load causes any issues as far as linearity is concerned!"
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1930/31783150488_ef4281b096_h.jpg)
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The RME ADI2 DAC has a 5 band PEQ as one of it's features. Found it very useful. :thumb:
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Thanks for the reply. The replies showed that i need to pay attention and be careful if i really try a passive amp for my 4B3. In fact, I audited Bespoke (a British passive amp) and was attracted by its performance. So put it on the list.
For these few weeks, just borrowed Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi for home audition. And it sounds great and work well with 4B3. So once again, before making any decision, need some more time for selection and considerations.
Thanks for the advice.
After using Rowland Synergy IIi for 7 months, now already moved to Bespoke Passive pre amp...
No problem in matching with my 4B3....the gain still 23db.....
Enjoy the new combination now with a straight output from the source and dac and music comes lively.....
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=192226)
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My 2 hifi main systems have turned into AV systems. The exception is my home office where I have BP-25 feeding a old Carver 1.0t Amp, which are firing a pair of PMC TB2's. My upstairs AV system has a Emotiva prepro feeding a 9B-st firing a pair of PSB Stratus Goldi's. the Downstairs system/man cave/ Lazy Eye bar is currently under reno's but will likely be retro fitted with an Outlaw 976 prepro feeding a 3B firing a pair of heavily modded Klipsch La Scala's . I have a pair of 2B-Lp's which will handle the surround and center channels. I also have a pair of old 4B's which I may run in mono mode to fire a pair of 18" passive Electro Voice subwoofer bins.......ahem ...the wife said I could do what I want in man cave ; ) . We will see what it sounds like. My neighbours enjoy great music, whether they like it or not.
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Had an Adcom GFP-750 for awhile and in passive mode with my 14 BSST the clarity was amazing thru my Martin Logan CLS2Z.
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Sonic Frontier Line 1 preamp running into a Bryston 4B cubed feeding Bryston Mini T speakers. Using balanced cables. Phase and mono also.
Sounds very tasty.
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ARC Ref 5SE with 7B3 amps. I agree that the Vac-tube pre and SS amp combo can be great.
I am using the same combo with great results. Very happy with the ARC - Bryston synergy.
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Linear Tube Audio (LTA) MZ2S headphone amp/integrated/pre-amp into Bryston 2.5Bsst2 driving Klipsch Chorus II or Mini T's.
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Hi, my previous pre was Hovland HP-100 with 14bsst-2, really somptuous sound, now using YBA 1 Alpha with special power supply. Sound is more clinical but very precise.
Cheers
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202022)
BP16DA - 14B SST
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202023)
B60 pre + 2x 3B NRB
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And to make it easy for yourself ..........................
(http://www.hififreaks.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14.0;attach=8697;image)
Bryston B60SST. ;-)
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I'm impressed HiFi !!!
james
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When this thread started, almost two years ago, I was using a BP6, Since, I've tried several non-Bryson preamps, including a Parasound , Nad and Cambridge. Coming back to Bryston, I invested in both a BP-26 and a BP17 cubed - - - and upgraded the amp from a 4B SST2 to a 4B cubed. (Thiel 2.7 speakers plus an SS2.2 Sub)
I only listen to classical RedBook CDs, and, for me, the BP 17 is all I'd ever want. Every now and then, I get the feeliing I'm back in the Great Hall of the Musikverein, listening to the Vienna Philaharmonic.
Conversely, my son, more into Jazz, Contemporary, R&B, Country and Rock, clearly prefers the BP-26. I guess it may be the slight mid-bass boost. He likes it, but I think it slightly distorts the lower mid and bass. (No, I don''t need hearing aids.)
In either way, in his opinion and mine, we prefer the Bryston preamps - - plus the 4B cubed.
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I'm impressed HiFi !!!
james
Thanks! :)