[WGH]

Thanks Coke, I'm gathering information on how small a room is too small for the HT2-TL's. My room is 11.5' x 15' but an open doorway between the speakers goes into the kitchen and the rest of the house so I think I'll be OK. The Audioholics review said the speakers sounded great in a 12' x 14' room.

Wayne

[coke]

Thanks Coke, I'm gathering information on how small a room is too small for the HT2-TL's. My room is 11.5' x 15' but an open doorway between the speakers goes into the kitchen and the rest of the house so I think I'll be OK. The Audioholics review said the speakers sounded great in a 12' x 14' room.

Wayne

From my experience with these speakers, that size room should work well.  I do have vaulted ceilings though, so there's more ft^3 than a typical room of that size.

[rahimlee54]

I have a 12x14 room which sounds ok, but of course I want a bigger room  .

[vintagebob]

OG,

Thanks for sharing!  Looks like a reasonable setup.

[Saturn94]

.....Here is the rub with the Cardas IMO.  Dennis has explained that you need to be far enough away from the speakers so that the sound coming from all of the drivers can integrate.  The minimum I remember was 2.5 meters or about 100” which was discussed here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69480.msg645527#msg645527

I realize this is an older thread, but I've just come across it and wanted to respond.

Reading the quote above I was a bit concerned.  I'm considering the HT2-TLs to replace my ADS L1290s (3 way design).  I'm right at the borderline (about 100") from my speakers and cannot increase that distance.  And since the HT2-TLs have a deeper cabinet than my ADS, that distance would likely shrink some.

I felt better after reading the thread you referenced.  In that thread Dennis said:

 

...As for distance, it shouldn't make too much difference for MTM designs, assuming you are listening on the tweeter axis.  (And if you're not--do something, because that's the only correct listening position.)  For 3-ways, my design distance is 3.5 meters (tweeter axis), although anything from 2.5 meters to infinity will not make a drastic difference.  If you get closer than that,  driver integration will suffer....

I don't seem to have much issue with my 3 way, so it would seem the HT2-TL's MTM design will not be an issue as long as I'm on the tweeter axis (I'll have to check the tweeter height, but it should be fine).

[vintagebob]

Saturn,

Nice catch!  I missed the distinction between MTM and 3-way.  It sounds like you should be OK.  Even at 100" though they seem CLOSE!

[Saturn94]

Reviving this old thread......again.

I've owned my HT2-TLs since mid Feb 2011 and am still tweaking their position (not very fun to do considering how heavy they are).  Up until now it seems I've been having trouble getting my HT2-TL's to "disappear" in the soundstage and really open up to my satisfaction (my ADS L1290's easily disappeared in a very open sounding soundstage).

I do have placement/seating limitations, especially how far out into the room I can place speakers; about 30" max from the front of the speaker to the wall behind them, which places them about 8ft from my prime listening position.  So I'm pretty much limited to playing with speaker width and toe in.

I started by placing the HT2-TLs in the same position as the ADS, but I wasn't entirely happy with that.  Some here suggested limited or no toe in.  This seem to help a little, but still not there.  I tried more aggressive toe in, but still not satisfied.  I tried some formula I found about listening distance in relation to how far apart to place the speaker.  The results were good, but not great.  I was beginning to think they just weren't going to open up that much in my room (dang room ) and by mid May settled on having them 7ft apart (center to center) with 1.25" toe in and 8ft from my listening position.  They sounded pretty good in this position, but I can't say I was thrilled with them.

Last month I heard a setup at the Capitol Audiofest that I really enjoyed.  It was a pair of monitors that were set up pretty wide with quite aggressive toe in.  I would have thought that such aggressive toe in would produce great imaging, would would limit the width of the soundstage and have a very narrow sweet spot.  But in this case the result was a very wide/open soundstage with great imaging and a wide sweet spot/area.  I just figured it must have to do with that particular speaker design and drivers used.

I was thinking about this setup the past few days and wondered if the result wasn't so much the speaker design/drivers as it was the wide stance combined with aggressive toe in.  So tonight I spread the HT2-TLs apart as much as I could (8.5ft center to center) and pointed them directly at the center seating position 8ft away (this resulted in 4 inches of toe in).  This certainly was visually appealing as it opened up the space between the speakers and with the aggressive toe in the sides of the speaker are no longer visible from the center seat, making them visually slimmer/less obtrusive.  I put on some of my favorite CDs, including the great sampler that came with the Salks , and was quite surprised at what I heard; a wide/open soundstage while maintaining great imaging and a bit wider sweet spot.  The speakers also "disappear" better into the soundstage.  Now this is more like it!

Everything I've played so far sounds great.  Time will tell, but I think I might have finally found my HT2-TL's sweet spot in my room.

The moral of this story?  Sometimes the best tweaks are free and as much of a pain it may be, keep experimenting with speaker position and forget about the "rules".

[Kinger]

Great post and particularly relevant to me currently as I'm struggling with getting my ST's to "disappear" as best I can also.  Think part of my issue is that my listening space is also a family room so pulling speakers out further from the wall is difficult.

[Nuance]

Good post Saturn; I'm happy things are coming together for you.  The room can effect the sound more than the speakers, so it is critical to take it out of the equation the best we can.

Kinger, I have found that the width and toe-in of the speakers is more critical than the distance from the wall behind them.  YMMV, of course.  The ST's are very placement friendly, so don't hesitate to think outside the box and perhaps do something that would be considered unconventional.  This is what I did, and now I have the best sound I ever have.

[Saturn94]

........  Think part of my issue is that my listening space is also a family room so pulling speakers out further from the wall is difficult.

Same here.  Living/dining room, HT, and music room all rolled into one.  I'd love to have a separate HT/music room, but I'll have to wait for that big lottery check before that will happen.

I hope my post was helpful to you.

Good post Saturn; I'm happy things are coming together for you.  The room can effect the sound more than the speakers, so it is critical to take it out of the equation the best we can.

Thanks.

Since it's next to impossible to take the room out of the equation (perhaps lots of room treatments would minimize its impact, but that's not always an option for everyone), I think it comes down to using placement to get the speakers, listening position, and room to all play nice together.

Kinger, I have found that the width and toe-in of the speakers is more critical than the distance from the wall behind them.  YMMV, of course.  The ST's are very placement friendly, so don't hesitate to think outside the box and perhaps do something that would be considered unconventional.  This is what I did, and now I have the best sound I ever have.

Agreed.  This has been my experience as well with my HT2-TLs.

[Kinger]

Yep, more experimenting is required.  I think I kinda shoot myself in the foot more often than not by trying to get great sound both when the room is WAF friendly and then when the significant other is gone and I have more control over the LP and room treatments.  To further complicate matters, my new Rythmik F12 should be here tomorrow.

[Saturn94]

Yep, more experimenting is required.  I think I kinda shoot myself in the foot more often than not by trying to get great sound both when the room is WAF friendly and then when the significant other is gone and I have more control over the LP and room treatments.  To further complicate matters, my new Rythmik F12 should be here tomorrow.

Actually, using a sub allowed me to focus on setting my HT2-TLs up for best soundstage/imaging without also having to account for bass performance.  IMO, using a sub gives you the best of both.

[Nuance]

Actually, using a sub allowed me to focus on setting my HT2-TLs up for best soundstage/imaging without also having to account for bass performance.  IMO, using a sub gives you the best of both.

^ This.  As I am sure you've all seen me say before, usually the best place in the room for bass response isn't the best for soundstage and imaging capabilities.  That's why a true 2-channel system is difficult to implement IMO, at least in the rooms I've tried.  YMMV, of course.  I'll never go without at least 2.1 again, though, or at least something like an active pair of SoundScapes (allows you to apply PEQ to the bass woofers).

[vintagebob]

I may have to do this entire thread all over again for the SoundScapes?  The rear wave adds another variable to an already difficult equation.

Nuance, I forgot to ask Jim about an active crossover.   

[Nuance]

I may have to do this entire thread all over again for the SoundScapes?  The rear wave adds another variable to an already difficult equation.

Nuance, I forgot to ask Jim about an active crossover.   

It might not be too late, but it's not the end of the world.  You're getting SoundScapes buddy - oh yeah!!!

[Saturn94]

^ This.  As I am sure you've all seen me say before, usually the best place in the room for bass response isn't the best for soundstage and imaging capabilities.  That's why a true 2-channel system is difficult to implement IMO, at least in the rooms I've tried.  YMMV, of course.  I'll never go without at least 2.1 again, though, or at least something like an active pair of SoundScapes (allows you to apply PEQ to the bass woofers).

The .1 (or .2 or .3 etc ) is a good thing!   Another plus is that the midrange on the HT2-TL sounds cleaner (lower distortion?) with the Seas drivers relieved of bass duties, especially when cranked up.

[Bill Baker]

Interesting thread. I am running Jim's HT2-TLs with the RAAL ribbon in my showroom (I am not a "dealer"). The listening part of the room is 17' x 30' x 10' but overall, the entire room is just over 1300 sq. feet. I too prefer to run in an arrangement similar to Usher's "5ths". I have them about 5 feet from the front wall and about 4 feet from side walls putting them about 9 feet apart. My prefered listening position is somewhere in the 10-15 foot mark. The speakers do have to be tweaked when changing listening distance but always provide the best overall soundstage/imaging with minimal toe-in. About 5 degrees.

 I feed them plenty of clean power and they easily fill this large room while providing a spacious soundstage.

 Moving them to the long wall provide a completely different setup and have found having the speakers further apart as compared to the listening distance provided better results than using the same "5ths" method above.

 Just goes to show that every room and arrangement will require experimentation. You can make a very elite system sound like crap by simply not playing with the placement of the speakers. Just because one speaker works in a particular arrangement does not mean the next speaker will provide the same result.

[Saturn94]

Interesting thread. I am running Jim's HT2-TLs with the RAAL ribbon in my showroom (I am not a "dealer"). The listening part of the room is 17' x 30' x 10' but overall, the entire room is just over 1300 sq. feet. I too prefer to run in an arrangement similar to Usher's "5ths". I have them about 5 feet from the front wall and about 4 feet from side walls putting them about 9 feet apart. My prefered listening position is somewhere in the 10-15 foot mark. The speakers do have to be tweaked when changing listening distance but always provide the best overall soundstage/imaging with minimal toe-in. About 5 degrees.

 I feed them plenty of clean power and they easily fill this large room while providing a spacious soundstage.

 Moving them to the long wall provide a completely different setup and have found having the speakers further apart as compared to the listening distance provided better results than using the same "5ths" method above.

 Just goes to show that every room and arrangement will require experimentation. You can make a very elite system sound like crap by simply not playing with the placement of the speakers. Just because one speaker works in a particular arrangement does not mean the next speaker will provide the same result.

Interesting you mention they do better further apart when using them on the long wall.  The layout of my room dictates I put my HT2-TLs on the long wall (see link: http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou ).  Since creating that diagram, I've moved the HT2-TLs even further apart and increased toe in significantly as I described in my earlier post.  The improvement is significant.

[catastrofe]

I might be worth a try using the Cardas method.  You can find the info on the Cardas website.  Doesn't cost anything to try other than some sweat equity.

[jimdgoulding]

Bob- Hi.  I'd be interested to know if you are sitting at the apex of an equliateral triangle or one with longer legs.  If so, how long?  And, how far are the front of your speakers from the wall behind them?