BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready

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zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #180 on: 13 Jul 2016, 09:00 pm »
I LOVE the idea of playing one song and having Roon select other similar songs for a customized "radio". Excellent feature. I wish I could get it to use Tidal's library to augment the selection (without ME adding Tidal albums to my Roon collection).

I don't have TIDAL at the moment, but having that feature incorporate TIDAL as well would be amazing for hours and hours of fun.

So far, I've only had time to test with minutes and seconds between songs. Sometimes I've listened to a song all the way through, then switched. Other times, I've listened to a particular passage (say 30 seconds or so) and switched back and forth and back again.

I know this seems vague, but I just found that I wasn't as engaged in the music through Roon. I didn't get lost in enjoying the music. It just felt... flatter.

There's an audio optimizer software thing for use on Windows servers and maybe Windows 10. It basically strips out tons of extraneous things from the operating system in an effort to optimize the system. I'm wondering if that concept isn't the culprit. Perhaps a Linux-based server or Windows server that was audio optimized would help with the sound quality?

Funny thing you mentioned about the optimizer. I'm actually looking around for the script that I got from Amarra for MAC. It disables a bunch of things. It's optimizations in disabling are more aggressive than Audirvana Plus. I'm looking into that next and see if it does anything for Roon. The other thing I have been reading about is HQ player. When I tried it last year the software seemed to go above my head and it wouldn't play music.

Also, I share your sentiment of the flatter image when switching over to Roon from MPD, but give it some time. Try to have a passive session and just listen for a few hours straight while doing anything. I find that helps me get acclimated the fastest. Play your greatest hits. Active listening makes you focus on certain things while ignoring other things. Plus, you'll be over stressing the auditory nervous system. Happened to me yesterday after the extensive back and forth. Music became noise.

I would love to hear your thoughts after a day of passive listening where you are in the sweet spot but doing other things like reading, browsing the net, or playing games.

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #181 on: 13 Jul 2016, 09:09 pm »

Have a read : Why Do WAV And FLAC Files Sound Different? If this is anywhere near truth, what would that mean for Roon and the likes. Might it explain (y)our experience? Does this advocate a device focussed on playing the music files, rather then representing them in a visually attractive way, and have tons of other calculations, cross referencing and tagging going on in the background (Roons words).

Cheers,
Marius

I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.

Marius

Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #182 on: 13 Jul 2016, 09:25 pm »
I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.


HI!
When I started with my BDP some 5 years or so ago, I've tried to hear the differences, wasn't sure i did, and then started building the library with Flac. Mainly because Bryston advocated that (i think to remember.... and the tagging convenience). Guess my system falls in your category above. Science seems to dictate this to be expected since both are valid lossless formats, that get played and converted likewise.


When i did some direct comparing, albeit on Mp3's of some very well known tracks (Patricia Barber in this case) of BDP/MPD with attached HDD, and BDP/ROON reading from the server, there is not a single doubt the MPD sounds far superior. I rule out the server as culprit, BDP/MPD and mp3 from server sound identical, as do all formats. No difference between BPD/MPD playing from attached HDD's or NAS served music. The latter might well be the ideal configuration, since you don't have the spinning discs in your auditorium, and have limitless storing capability. especially valid for the BDP1.

Ive always felt BDP/MPD make listening to good MP3's practically indistinguishable from full resolution flacs/wavs, so was comfortable testing the first couple of tracks with the MP3 format.


But this is maybe beside the point here, i meant to draw attention to what the author states about the reason for deteriorated SQ being tall the tagging going on. ROON does a lot of this, even while serving/playing the files. Would this cause the effects on SQ we believe we heard? Could it really be.


I will test with FLAC files also, but need ROON to first finish analyzing the files. It will take a couple of extra days in the current tempo... :cry:


Cheers anyway..
Marius










zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #183 on: 13 Jul 2016, 11:48 pm »
Hi Marius,

I also started with FLAC library for the same reasons. Support on most devices and artwork support. Although, converting the entire library to WAV was quite easy with XLD through its batch conversion. I got 500 GB done in few hours. Same folder structure and everything. It's quite easy to A/B on MPD as it buffers very fast in comparison to just about any other software I've used, including Audirvana Plus and Roon. I can skip anywhere in the track rapidly right after clicking on the track and it will play without any stops.

Also, yes I agree with your assessment of MP3s on MPD. Wouldn't say indistinguishable from WAV when listening very critically with microscopic focus, especially through headphones, but for playback and enjoyment, MP3 works wonders.

That article mentions that going back and forth between formats somehow loses sound quality....? I have never experienced that with any decent converter software that checks to make sure the resulting file is identical. XLD on Mac and Exact Audio Copy on Windows are all you need. I can go back and forth as many times and the file will still be the same as the original, regardless of compressed or uncompressed.

My case to support WAV is only for live playback where things might be more complicated perhaps.

I'm not sure about the artwork honestly. From the limited knowledge I have, the artwork doesn't or shouldn't interact with the audio. In practical world tests, the artwork doesn't do anything to the sound quality. I'm speaking from first hand experience. I've used many softwares that converted files to ALAC, FLAC, WAV from CDs without any embedded metadata or artwork. The files would just be called "Track 01.flac" and "Track 02.flac" and so on. Nothing extra on top of them. I would even check the metadata and everything would be blank....yet the sound quality differences were still there.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #184 on: 14 Jul 2016, 12:21 am »
Isn't this thread about Roon?   :green:

(I prefer FLAC myself -- can't hear any diff with WAV   8) ; saves lots more space too. Even with MP3-320 vs. 44/16 CD rips -- the really well-rec MP3-320s are indistinguishable on my BDP-1).


Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #185 on: 14 Jul 2016, 02:33 am »
I'm on the side of WAV if you want peace of mind. On some systems, FLAC and WAV make absolutely no difference. On others WAV sounds better than FLAC. ALAC being the worst of the bunch. I have objectively tested ALAC, FLAC, AIFF, and WAV in terms of CPU usage and buffer times. Avoid ALAC. FLAC third place. AIFF at a much higher second place. WAV number one...all in relative terms....but seriously, ALAC should be avoided. Had another guy on a Naim system tell me he preferred the formats in the same order as me.

You've ordered them on the level of difficulty for a little-endian system to unpack and decode the PCM data within. WAV and AIFF differ only in that AIFF uses a big-endian ordering, which is a legacy consideration from the Mac PowerPC days (like when I was in school a hundred years ago). But a byte-swap on a modern CPU is immeasurably fast, so I can't believe there is any measurable difference between WAV and AIFF. I can play AIFF 192/24 files on my BDP-1 and MPD runs at something like 5% CPU utilization.

FLAC is very easy to unpack and decode - it was designed that way from the outset - and my experience measuring on the BDP-1 is very close to AIFF (more CPU used, but not much more).

ALAC, on the other hand, allows metadata to be placed almost anywhere in the file and, as such, as a far more complicated format to unpack. I've seen 192/24 ALAC files consume as much as 50% CPU in some cases. So, yeah, it's a tough format for things like the low-powered BDP-1.

But that's really the magic of Roon - Roon off-loads all of this unpacking/decoding to another machine (RoonServer) and sends the equivalent of WAV to the target renderer (PCM data). Roon does add additional network overhead for control, et al., but you can watch the RAAT app run on a BDP-1 and, even with high-resolution files, it utilizes WAV-like levels of the CPU.

Best of all worlds... I am at a loss to explain the sound differences between AIFF via MPD and the same music via Roon.

Wapiti

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #186 on: 15 Jul 2016, 02:04 pm »
Thank you, Krutsch

Helpful and very interesting.

Grit

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #187 on: 19 Jul 2016, 05:59 am »
I did get to listen again last night, but not a very lengthy session. Depending on what I listened to, there can be a dramatic difference.

The MPD seemed fuller and more engaging. Music struck an emotional cord with me. Playing via Roon, the music had a tendency to seem less dynamic. I get where someone said more focused. Indeed I was able to pick out specific instruments, but the sound was flatter. Now I'm not sure which one is closer to what it was intended to sound like (which is always my goal... if the recording was crappy, I want to hear the best, unaltered version of crappy I can).

For kicks and giggles, I played the same tracks through my Sonos. MPD was much closer to Sonos but clearly a better and more natural sound. Roon was all by itself.

I also get where someone (same person I think) said Roon was more 2-dimensional. That pin-point accuracy seemed to normalize the music to a point where it had no depth, which may be why it did not strike an emotional response with me.

Regardless, there's definitely a difference. I'll do some extended casual listening in a few weeks and see which I prefer when I'm not so focused on the differences.

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #188 on: 19 Jul 2016, 05:57 pm »
Regardless of whichever (Roon/MPD) people prefer, the most important thing is that almost everyone agrees that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I have yet to hear someone say MPD is the same as Roon.

I would love to hear from Bryston engineers on why the sound differs between both, and if they (Bryston or Roon) are planning to take actions about it. Many people elsewhere have also found Roon sounding quite a bit different from other softwares and endpoints. I'm all ears Bryston...

James Tanner

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #189 on: 19 Jul 2016, 05:59 pm »
Regardless of whichever (Roon/MPD) people prefer, the most important thing is that almost everyone agrees that THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. I have yet to hear someone say MPD is the same as Roon.

I would love to hear from Bryston engineers on why the sound differs between both, and if they (Bryston or Roon) are planning to take actions about it. Many people elsewhere have also found Roon sounding quite a bit different from other softwares and endpoints. I'm all ears Bryston...

Hi All Ears,

No plans here to change our version of MPD.

james

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #190 on: 19 Jul 2016, 06:01 pm »
Hi All Ears,

No plans here to change our version of MPD.

james

Hello James,

I meant Roon. MPD is fine as it is.

Regards,

All Ears

James Tanner

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #191 on: 19 Jul 2016, 06:06 pm »
Hello James,

I meant Roon. MPD is fine as it is.

Regards,

All Ears

Hi

Oh sorry misread that - Roon is bit perfect so they feel comfortable with their software as is.

james

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #192 on: 20 Jul 2016, 02:00 am »
Hi

Oh sorry misread that - Roon is bit perfect so they feel comfortable with their software as is.

james

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."  :D

Between Audirvana Plus, Amarra, Amarra SQ, Foobar2000, VLC, Roon, MPD in the past few years and all their bit-perfectness, sound me confused.

It's interesting to read up on the Roon community forum and people's impressions. I would love to hear from others here as time goes on.

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #193 on: 20 Jul 2016, 04:03 am »
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."  :D

"All bits are perfect but some bits are more perfect than others." - George Orwell

Quote
Between Audirvana Plus, Amarra, Amarra SQ, Foobar2000, VLC, Roon, MPD in the past few years and all their bit-perfectness, sound me confused.

It's interesting to read up on the Roon community forum and people's impressions. I would love to hear from others here as time goes on.

I am still working through my Roon vs. MPD listening observations... I took some time out to transcode my MPD library back to FLAC, and to update all of the multi-disc albums with the "right" set of tags to be completely compatible with Manic Moose.

It's been fascinating to read the many threads on the Roon community asking about sound quality - all of them from the point of view that something is amiss, but they can't put their finger on exactly what the issue is. Many comments that mirror the above about flat, lifeless sound, etc.

zoom25

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #194 on: 20 Jul 2016, 05:53 am »
"All bits are perfect but some bits are more perfect than others." - George Orwell

I am still working through my Roon vs. MPD listening observations... I took some time out to transcode my MPD library back to FLAC, and to update all of the multi-disc albums with the "right" set of tags to be completely compatible with Manic Moose.

It's been fascinating to read the many threads on the Roon community asking about sound quality - all of them from the point of view that something is amiss, but they can't put their finger on exactly what the issue is. Many comments that mirror the above about flat, lifeless sound, etc.

Perfect! Using it like that from now on. Thanks.

Yes, I only found out about Roon's community forums a few days and have just been extensively reading the ones concerned with the SQ, and a lot of them use HQplayer and JRiver, few Audirvana Plus and Amarra. Some don't like Roon's SQ in comparison to others. Other people find Roon to be better than their previous players. A bunch of them find them "close enough" to their previous players. A very few select can tell no difference...The important conclusion IMO being Roon still sounds different from other software and hardware players, for better or worse. I'm talking about a group of 100+ people here.

I mentioned this to Roon in the past year and they said the same thing about the "bit perfect stream" when I compared it against Audirvana Plus, which is also bit-perfect. They said it should not be happening and that the audio stream is perfect, and there should be no difference in sound. Since then, they started using Exclusive Mode and a few others optimizations that were not previously available in Roon...so going by their own reasoning...why bother??? Wasn't it already bit perfect and thus perfect?

Roon (same goes for Bryston) does seem very active and hospitable on their forums and always willing to respond, so I don't know if they genuinely cannot replicate the "problem" or hear the sound difference that so many of use are experiencing on plethora of system combinations, or they know about it, but are working on it.

Reading some of the material from the early beta threads over there, one of their representatives said:

As for Bryston's SQ: My understanding is that that issue has been resolved internally within Bryston. They did not contact us for technical help on this point, so we never learned the details. I know that the SQ stuff was the subject of a rumor mill, but I wouldn't read into it too much. All it says to me is that a product was made available to the public before it was ready. I don't think it really provides insight into what is going on within Bryston or within Roon.

Not trying to start something, but just got me curious. I will say that I do have faith in both Roon and Bryston to continue to listen to their customers and try to see if anything can be done about it. I know manufacturers strongly avoid to negatively comment on other companies when collaborating or in general, but I would love to hear if Bryston thinks MPD sounds the same as Roon or not when playing the same file through a Bryston BDP-1/2. Not whether it's bit perfect or not and all that, but their own subjective audio interpretations.

Again not concerned with whether MPD or Roon sounds better, but simply whether they (Roon or Bryston) actually can or cannot hear the difference. Not much else to say. I have repeated myself a few times already.

CanadianMaestro

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #195 on: 20 Jul 2016, 11:00 am »
Bit-perfect or not, the end-point "device" for all of this is our auditory system in our brains. As long as that is plastic, there will always be variations in music/sound perception. Would not have it any other way.   :thumb:

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #196 on: 20 Jul 2016, 11:16 pm »
In regards to my earlier posts about issues with gapless playback with Roon; it seems they've identified the root cause.

I'm glad my pestering is sometimes helpful  8)

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730

Marius

Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #197 on: 21 Jul 2016, 09:07 am »
HI Ken,
Could you please check the link, we're not allowed to go there....


Marius
In regards to my earlier posts about issues with gapless playback with Roon; it seems they've identified the root cause.

I'm glad my pestering is sometimes helpful  8)

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/gapless-transitions-network-latency/12730

Krutsch

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Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #198 on: 21 Jul 2016, 03:19 pm »
HI Ken,
Could you please check the link, we're not allowed to go there....


Marius

Sorry... works for me, but maybe it's somehow tied to my account in the Roon community. I described to them an issue related to gapless playback issues I was having; especially with my library located on a NAS share. They asked for suggestions on how to reproduce it and I suggested using a Network Traffic Shaping tool (I won't copy my lengthy post).

Here was the response from their CTO:

Quote
I was able to reproduce the symptom you described using Network Link Conditioner on a mac.

The root cause was not related to buffering. The issue was the amount of time taken in the close() system call for the previous track. Over a network link with an artificial 200ms latency, this operation can take 1-3 seconds.

That close() call happened to be inside of a lock that is shared with the thread that pumps out audio packets. So essentially, we'd stop sending packets for 1-3 seconds during close().

RAAT devices have a buffer that's roughly 2.5 seconds long. So if close() is fast enough, the endpoint buffer can smooth out the interruption, but if it was closer to the worst case behavior, you could get a dropout right around the track boundary.

I moved the close() call out of the critical path...it will happen safely in a background thread at its leisure.

This fix will go out in our next build. Thanks for the help in tracking this down.

I am very impressed with Roon's customer interactions; like Bryston, they seem to really care and are very transparent with their community.

Marius

Re: BRYSTON BDP DIGITAL PLAYERS NOW Roon Ready
« Reply #199 on: 21 Jul 2016, 06:18 pm »
Sorry... works for me, but maybe it's somehow tied to my account in the Roon community. I described to them an issue related to gapless playback issues I was having; especially with my library located on a NAS share. They asked for suggestions on how to reproduce it and I suggested using a Network Traffic Shaping tool (I won't copy my lengthy post).

Here was the response from their CTO:

I am very impressed with Roon's customer interactions; like Bryston, they seem to really care and are very transparent with their community.


Thank you so much, great outcome.
+1 to the Roon team for responsiveness.
Cheers,
Marius