[Danny Richie]

Yes, it was Danny's idea, not mine! I will just have to make sure that I decouple the cabinet from the wooden floor. Perhaps with spikes... Or maybe I should put a carpet

Rule of thumb is that if the floor is solid, concrete slab, then spike it right to the floor.

If the floor moves then use a damper.

And most of those devices that are claiming to decouple work really well, but they are not really decoupled. The speaker is still coupled to the floor. It still sits right on it. What those devices really do is add damping.

[pankon]

Rule of thumb is that if the floor is solid, concrete slab, then spike it right to the floor.

If the floor moves then use a damper.

And most of those devices that are claiming to decouple work really well, but they are not really decoupled. The speaker is still coupled to the floor. It still sits right on it. What those devices really do is add damping.

Oooops, just realized that I've forgotten to order spikes with my Kit-4. 

[pankon]

OK, it's been a couple of weeks that I've received kit-4 and the flatpacks. Now the single H-frame OB sub and is sitting majestically between the stand-mounted main speakers.






My next challenge is integration...

a) How can I find the correct phase and volume? I would not be very confident to do that by ear.
b) Should I buy a calibrated mike and measure the total response at the listening position?

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Panos

[mlundy57]

OK, it's been a couple of weeks that I've received kit-4 and the flatpacks. Now the single H-frame OB sub and is sitting majestically between the stand-mounted main speakers.






My next challenge is integration...

a) How can I find the correct phase and volume? I would not be very confident to do that by ear.
b) Should I buy a calibrated mike and measure the total response at the listening position?

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Panos

I use REW and a UMIC-1. REW is free and the mic is around $80. In addition to phase and volume, this method lets you dial in the crossover point too.

Another issue is the length of the wire to the sub. That long of a run is going to have an impact on how well the servo works.

[pankon]

I use REW and a UMIC-1. REW is free and the mic is around $80. In addition to phase and volume, this method lets you dial in the crossover point too.

That's very interesting, thank you.

I am aware of REW, but I have never used it actually. I wonder how easy it is to find the phase and volume. I suppose it requires various trial and error attempts.

[kbuzz3]

Interesting set up.  I use vintage LS35As as my everyday speaker. And although I'm not an open baffle guy, i will echo what was said before, due to the mid bass bump i find it difficult but not impossible to use a sub with mine.  I go back and forth...sometimes i like it other times i feel they detract from the black magic of the sealed box design...

Best I've found with these little boxes is the TBI subwoofers....

[mlundy57]

That's very interesting, thank you.

I am aware of REW, but I have never used it actually. I wonder how easy it is to find the phase and volume. I suppose it requires various trial and error attempts.

Yes. I normally use dual subs on the main channels so you will have to modify my approach but it will give you an idea of a process. I do this one speaker at a time: The first thing I do is measure the speaker to determine it's average level and -6dB point. Then I turn off the speaker and measure just the sub. I adjust the average volume of the sub to match or be slightly higher than the average volume of the speaker. If there is a big peak in the bass I turn the PEQ on and bring the peak down. Then I adjust the crossover point so the sub is -6db at the same point the speaker is. Then I turn the speaker back on and measure the speaker and sub together. If combined, the crossover point isn't right I adjust the phase until the the sub sums properly at the crossover point. Then I sit back and listen. If something is off, I make adjustments and remeasure. Repeat until you are satisfied with the result. Then do the other channel. Then check both together. Adjust and repeat until you are satisfied with the overall sound.

Just to reiterate, since you are summing into a mono sub, you will need to modify my approach.

[pankon]

Yes. I normally use dual subs on the main channels so you will have to modify my approach but it will give you an idea of a process. I do this one speaker at a time: The first thing I do is measure the speaker to determine it's average level and -6dB point. Then I turn off the speaker and measure just the sub. I adjust the average volume of the sub to match or be slightly higher than the average volume of the speaker. If there is a big peak in the bass I turn the PEQ on and bring the peak down. Then I adjust the crossover point so the sub is -6db at the same point the speaker is. Then I turn the speaker back on and measure the speaker and sub together. If combined, the crossover point isn't right I adjust the phase until the the sub sums properly at the crossover point. Then I sit back and listen. If something is off, I make adjustments and remeasure. Repeat until you are satisfied with the result. Then do the other channel. Then check both together. Adjust and repeat until you are satisfied with the overall sound.

Just to reiterate, since you are summing into a mono sub, you will need to modify my approach.

Finally a process I understand and I believe I can replicate. THANK YOU!  Much appreciated

[pankon]

Yes. I normally use dual subs on the main channels so you will have to modify my approach but it will give you an idea of a process. I do this one speaker at a time: The first thing I do is measure the speaker to determine it's average level and -6dB point. Then I turn off the speaker and measure just the sub. I adjust the average volume of the sub to match or be slightly higher than the average volume of the speaker. If there is a big peak in the bass I turn the PEQ on and bring the peak down. Then I adjust the crossover point so the sub is -6db at the same point the speaker is. Then I turn the speaker back on and measure the speaker and sub together. If combined, the crossover point isn't right I adjust the phase until the the sub sums properly at the crossover point. Then I sit back and listen. If something is off, I make adjustments and remeasure. Repeat until you are satisfied with the result. Then do the other channel. Then check both together. Adjust and repeat until you are satisfied with the overall sound.

Just to reiterate, since you are summing into a mono sub, you will need to modify my approach.

May I ask what phase delay you've finally settled with with your OB sub?

Thanks.

[Russell Dawkins]

I know this flies in the face of purist instincts, but in my experience it is impossible to mate the LS3/5a successfully with any sub without high passing the LS3/5a. The bass hump makes high pass essential for its elimination. One thing I never tried (and this was the Harbeth HP3, not the LS3/5a which has more of a hump) was taking the back off. Since it screws on, that should be do-able as an experiment and should eliminate the hump, even if further compromising the LF power handling.

But good luck getting a successful integration without high passing the little ones.

Having a single source for the sub bass further complicates things in the pursuit of bass quality.

[pankon]

I know this flies in the face of purist instincts, but in my experience it is impossible to mate the LS3/5a successfully with any sub without high passing the LS3/5a. The bass hump makes high pass essential for its elimination. One thing I never tried (and this was the Harbeth HP3, not the LS3/5a which has more of a hump) was taking the back off. Since it screws on, that should be do-able as an experiment and should eliminate the hump, even if further compromising the LF power handling.

But good luck getting a successful integration without high passing the little ones.

Having a single source for the sub bass further complicates things in the pursuit of bass quality.

That's an interesting idea, but unfortunately the back of my Falcon LS3/5a cannot be removed. The box opens from the front only. Then again, yesterday I installed the new crossovers offered by Falcon as an upgrade, resembling the Kingswood Warren model. The improvement was more than audible, especially in the bass region. Stronger bass, but very quick and natural at the same time. More body from the speakers, and ability to better pressurize the room, as if the volume of the box had increased. Very much worth the upgrade for those having older LS3/5a models (the new crossovers are standard in new production Falcon LS3/5a).

Having said that, the LS3/5a cannot possibly go down really low, i.e. below 50Hz. So I will continue my effort to integrate the OB sub. And I will see whether I can remove the bass hump with the help of the PEQ of the sub's Rythmik amp (A370PEQ), while running the LS3/5a full range.

[Russell Dawkins]

Maybe you could experimentally take the front baffle off the Falcon LS3/5a's and try them as open baffle, mounting them on larger baffles for a little more low mid support. You could use the same screw holes, so if you were careful you could do it in a completely reversible way and leave no trace.

This would really make sense if you ordered a second kit-4 and used them vertically as stands for the Falcon LS3/5a's.

Just thinking out loud, not trying to spend your money!

[pankon]

Maybe you could experimentally take the front baffle off the Falcon LS3/5a's and try them as open baffle, mounting them on larger baffles for a little more low mid support. ...

The OB LS3/5a is indeed an interesting idea. And I think the single sub is more than enough for my small room (approx. 4.2x4.3m), so I would not go for a second sub.

[Russell Dawkins]

Glad to help. That might sound good with the sub, although you would have to exercise restraint playing kodo drummers at full tilt if you ran the Falcons full range.

[mlundy57]

May I ask what phase delay you've finally settled with with your OB sub?

Thanks.

There isn’t one correct setting. It is room and setup dependent. Having a fully adjustable phase control is needed for this to work best because the best setting is rarely 0, 90, or 180 degrees. Also, it is slightly different for each channel. The phase settings are also different in my room at home and the hotel room I exhibit in at the Lone Star Audio Fest. Same speakers, same system, but different phase settings.