Power Amps at Low Volumes

jb26 · « **on:** 19 Sep 2011, 09:52 am »

Hi,

I listen to a lot of music at low 'sociable' volumes as I have a toddler & close neighbours.

I'm currently running the M901 into Ascend Sierra-1 speakers with NRT upgrade, and I would like to know what effect adding a power amp (the ICEBlocks if I stay true to Seth) would make. The 'power' aspect of the name implies it's would generate more volume (probably a newbie assumption/equation), but what will be the impact be upon the sound production or detail at relatively low volumes?

The systems in a small-medium living room with the ideal listening position about 4ms from the speakers.

Cheers, and thanks for helping a newbie in advance,

James

neekomax · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Sep 2011, 11:37 pm »

Bump for this, interesting topic... are there amps that do low volume 'better' than others?

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 12:06 am »

Yes neeko, there are amps that do low volume better than others.

Single ended triode amplifiers sound wayyyyyy better at low to medium volume levels than any other type of amplifier. Especially tube rectified SETs.

In my opinion, of course!

neekomax · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 12:10 am »

I have heard that before...

In what way(s) have you found that SETs sound better at low-medium volume?

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #4 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 12:22 am »

I actually think that SETs sound better at all volume levels compared to non-SETs, but with a speaker that is only 87dB efficient, low to medium volume levels are probably all that you're going to get out of an SET because of the relatively low power.

But to specifically answer your question neeko,

Some amplifiers need to be pushed a little bit before they sound like they are coming alive and the details are revealed. Sometimes an amplifier can sound a little lifeless or squashed at very low volumes. SETs don't have that problem. They sound just as big and lively at all volume levels until the point of saturation or overdrive. The detail, the life, and the breath of the music is heard throughout the entire useable volume range with an SET.

I hope that makes sense.

neekomax · « **Reply #5 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 12:40 am »

Makes sense to me... I do indeed have speakers that are 87 db efficient at 6 ohms, but they are biamped - woofers have their own 300w plate amps, so maybe they could do with SET type power at reasonable volume.

I'd like to hear this for myself on my own speakers. Might have to spend a little money to do so, though, I don't know anyone with a SET to lend. Maybe worth it for better night time listening...

eclein · « **Reply #6 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 12:52 am »

My TWO.2 sounds excellent at low volume....I do nearfield and always listen at low volume....its fantastic.

Jason T · « **Reply #7 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 01:19 am »

Quote from: eclein on 20 Sep 2011, 12:52 am

My TWO.2 sounds excellent at low volume....I do nearfield and always listen at low volume....its fantastic.

the speakers play a LARGE Part in how well a system will sound at low volume.
typically I've found that less efficient 4ohm speakers sound best at low volume and that might play a part with the load its presenting on the amplifier.

jb26 · « **Reply #8 on:** 20 Sep 2011, 09:38 am »

Thanks for the info about a few different styles of amps that help, but what I was trying to get to is - at low volumes, what benefits will I experience from adding a power amp to my current set up (pre-out on my integrated would let me use it as a pre-amp with the power amp).

Thanks,

James

Rclark · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 Sep 2011, 05:22 am »

Quote from: eclein on 20 Sep 2011, 12:52 am

My TWO.2 sounds excellent at low volume....I do nearfield and always listen at low volume....its fantastic.

*2, of course to add onto what Jason said, my less efficient, 4ohm Magnepan speakers sound unreal (compared to other systems I've heard) at low volumes.

I really think the Virtue amps with their high current capability via power supply are fantastic for planars and low efficiency speakers.

The THREE... oughta be out of this world, even at low volume.

You're the man Seth!

neekomax · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 Sep 2011, 04:33 pm »

Here's a thought for low volume listening... EQ.

At low volumes, our ears hear 1kHz - 5kHz much more than the other frequencies. So we lose bass, low mids, and 'sparkly' highs. If we use EQ, we can compensate for these less heard frequencies and have closer to the full, rich, exciting sound that louder music provides... without our neighbors hating us (as much

). EQ can then be bypassed or modified at higher volumes, or you can use the room correction software to your advantage as well.

Personally, I'm considering one of these. Very powerful piece of hardware for $270.

(... cheaper than most amps, that's for sure!)

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/DEQ2496.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-DEQ2496-Component-Rack/dp/B000CCN152

Rclark · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 Sep 2011, 07:58 pm »

Noooooo! No eq. Virtue amps are already perfectly tuned. Treat your room.

Plus Behringer is crap. How could you even consider mating your new speakers up to that thing?

neekomax · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 Sep 2011, 09:57 pm »

Quote from: Rclark on 22 Sep 2011, 07:58 pm

Noooooo! No eq. Virtue amps are already perfectly tuned. Treat your room.

Plus Behringer is crap. How could you even consider mating your new speakers up to that thing?

Behringer makes high value gear. What do you base that opinion on?

Check out the specs, this thing does a lot of processing for the money.

I may also treat my room. But, for the reasons mentioned in my previous post, eq is a good solution for making low volume listening better, IMHO.

virtue · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Sep 2011, 03:53 am »

Guys, one size does not fit all. In fact, every audiophile I know experiments with different things and changes tastes over time. Moreover, most people have more than one system. I fell in love with high-end audio through a big 805 tube amp and meadowlark (sensitive) speakers. Wow! And then the amp broke and nearly broke my back putting it in storage. So there are trade-offs too.

The Berringer stuff is excellent, however, a bit sterile out of the box. Their gear violates high end audio sensibilities by cutting corners on components. The nominal cost is modest but times thousands, those nickels add up. So cutting corners makes plenty of sense for the mass market; none for us. Michael Mardis used to updgrade their EQ/DAC with Onetics transformers. The sound is amazing.

Bose does quite a business selling us what we hear and don't hear. So I trust there is something to Neeko's observations and I wouldn't doubt that EQ might be interesting for some folks at low volumes. The bottom line is that we all need to eat less and buy more audio gear. Experiment. Love. Learn. And share your experiences with others in this community.

Rclark · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Sep 2011, 04:27 am »

Only anecdotally Neekomax. A lot of people I respect say that Behringer brings a lot of function to the table at the expense of quality.

If it were me personally, especially with what you have going on, nice gear, I'd save a little more for something that's going to sound exceptional and is going to stay in the rig for a long time.

If you do get it though, please give us a full report

ericlp151 · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Sep 2011, 07:37 am »

Since this is a T-amp kinda forum a 2024 t-amp sounds great at low volumes and really it's only 15 watts or 7 watts at audio quality but super clean. You can get one in kit form for like 100 bucks. It's what made the t-amp, and I've heard a lot of higher watt t-amp versions but nothing I know sounds like an original 2024. Check out 6moons on the 2024 sonic t-amp, can still get em from parts express for 50 buck with a power supply.

Have Fun.

django11 · « **Reply #16 on:** 1 Oct 2011, 09:19 pm »

No one has answered the OP's original question about power amps at low volumes...

Rclark · « **Reply #17 on:** 1 Oct 2011, 11:28 pm »

Combined with the Warpspeed Octocoupler I'm getting EXCEPTIONAL performance at low volumes, the exact same sparkle and drive that you'd get turned up. It's way cool.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Oct 2011, 05:06 pm »

Quote from: django11 on 1 Oct 2011, 09:19 pm

No one has answered the OP's original question about power amps at low volumes...

There seems to be two questions going on here. The specific question is : What will be the impact upon the sound quality of the Ascend Sierra-1 by using an ICEBlock instead of a M901 at low volume levels? I guess that no one has actually made the switch between these two amplifiers using these speakers at low volume levels. However, the general question has been addressed. "If I listen to music at low volume levels, does a more powerful amplifier provide my speakers with a foundation for better sound quality?" So far it looks like the answer is maybe, and maybe not.

While it's true that even at low volume levels you should get some benefit by beefing up the power reserves in your amplifier, most likely that benefit will be obscured by the inherent complexity of the circuitry required to develop such power. In other words, simpler (less complicated) amplifiers usually sound truer to the source than their more powerful equivilents. To me, this is a real improvement in sound quality.

If you know that you prefer your music at quiet to medium volume levels then you might try to attack the problem from a different angle. A simpler, less powerful amplifier might actually sound better than a more complicated one with a more powerful grip, provided of course that the simpler amp can still drive the speakers that you own. Maybe after you improve the quality of the amplifier, then you can look into a more lively/easier to drive speaker. But only if you think there is room for improvement. There's no right or wrong way to do it. No one ever said that finding the right match between speaker and amplifier was an easy task!

Quote from: virtue on 23 Sep 2011, 03:53 am

one size does not fit all.

Totally agree with that!

Something else not mentioned here, but what the heck.......I also think that when you have some money to burn on upgrades that you should consider upgrading your source components first. At least take the time to re-evaluate them and make sure that they are as good or better than you think your amp and speakers are. IMO, of course.

DustyC · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Oct 2011, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: jb26 on 20 Sep 2011, 09:38 am

Thanks for the info about a few different styles of amps that help, but what I was trying to get to is - at low volumes, what benefits will I experience from adding a power amp to my current set up (pre-out on my integrated would let me use it as a pre-amp with the power amp).

Thanks,

James

Well, the ability to choose a power amp that exceeds the capability of the power amp section in your integrated. With an additional amp you could get more power, greater damping factor, better build, a different circuit topology or all of the above.
Since you listen at low volume, I would consider a pure Class A amp of 25 to 50 watts per channel. They have an ability to render all the very low level musical passages quite clearly. I recently aquired one and that was the first thing I noticed about it. (well, it was the 2nd thing I noticed, the 1st was that they run fairly hot.)

Forte sold an amp called the 1 (or 1A) that was a sweet sounding 50 watts. You can find one used for about $500 or so.