[Vulcan00]

I thought I would share this experience I had last night with my Salk friends:

I received a new CD from Amazon yesterday and sat down last evening to give it a critical listen. The CD is "Just a Little Loving", the artist, Shelby Lynne. I was entertained by this music. I found it to be very well recorded, the voice and the instruments are very clear, uncomplicated. For the most part you can identify each instrument and place MS Lynne and instrument within the sound stage. In other words I found this to be a good CD for evaluation of my system, its setup and room. I am not going to list my equipment because that's not the purpose of the post, other than to say my speakers are Salk's.

My room is well treated with GIK panels and the size is not too bad( I might mention this is a new place for me, the older was much better). I have struggled some with speaker placement because of 13 ft. width. Now, I employed many well-known speaker setup techniques, and had settled on 3ft space from speaker to adjacent wall and about 5 ft. between speakers.

Now back to my listening session. It was on the last song, "How Can I Be Sure", an old Rascal's hit from the 60's. It was very nicely done by her--- BUT I was saying to myself I know the guitar sound/tone is not right and I don't believe the soundstage is as good as I have known it to be (I know guitar acoustics, I have a Martin D28 and 000-28EC .) So I jump up and started to move my Speaker's position and toe-in, while restarting the song over and over. Finally I shoved my speakers toward the adjacent side walls. It was better! Shoved them more, till I'm less than a foot away and with almost no toe-in!!! The difference was unbelievable, perfect tone texture and soundstage was unbelievable. Now I never would have believed the sound would be this good with the speakers shoved up close to the side wall and not far from the corner and almost no toe-in. But it sounded great, It looks funny, but it sounds good. Sorry about this long post but it just goes to show sometimes all the right technical information does not work as good as just a good song, a familiar instrument, and your ear!

[mresseguie]

The Salk/AVA room at Axpona this year had a similar speaker placement. There were the Song Towers (I think), SS8s, and the new Exotica III speakers. None of them were toed in the whole weekend. The EIIIs sounded amazing.

[JLM]

As listeners of recorded media, we're all captive of whatever "magic" occurs in the recording/mixing/mastering process.

Does this new setup favor other recordings as well?  If not, seems to me you may have found an "odd duck" recording. 

[Big Red Machine]

I have always espoused Salk owners to start with little to no toe-in.  With great drivers and very little edge difraction there is no need to beam the sound straight at you.  This opens up the soundstage and gives every performer some space to occupy on the stage.

As far as nearness to the sidewalls you may have some reinforcements of some frequencies going on in your new room that are beneficial.  I have never shyed away from having my speakers within 2 feet of the sidewalls.  Presently I use RealTraps Near Diffusers right at the first reflection points to great effect.  My room is only 12 feet wide where the speakers sit and I am able to achieve an 8 width, 9 foot to ear, tweeter distance (always found this ideal).

I wish you had asked this question long ago!  Now go back and start listening to music all over again....

[JonnyFive]

It could be that the distance to the side wall was originally smearing the image with the reflection.  Now that the reflection happens much sooner, there is less smear in the image.  Was the reflection point on the wall treated?

How do they sound near the wall completely toed in at you?

[Austin08]

I was playing with toe-in for quite sometime when I got my 8 two years ago and just recently couple month ago. The result of the second set up was different to the first set up. When I first have my 8, I am pretty much happy with 5° toe-in and this set up staying that way for awhile (about 6 months). Then I changed to 3° toe-in and recently completely happy with 0° toe-in.

[Vulcan00]

Well Well,

Some excellent comments , questions and points        as I expected

1. Since this was late and went to bed, I had that thought this morning but have not listened to any other material, plan to tonight. good point!
2. I am pretty much convinced ( I do not have an explanation) that toe in is not good for the soundstage for mtm Salks'. ( referring to Jim Smiths theory Get better Sound), I have tried even straight toe-in to sweet spot. All the way, just removes all depth of soundstage and combines sounds to mess accuracy
3. Biggun why didn't you tell me !!
4. I have the immediate wall  extensively cover with 244's and monster traps and tri- corner -covered. So you may have a point

[Gzerro]

I would speculate that the biggest change was reinforcement to the lower/mid-bass due to proximity to walls/corner. This may suit your room/tastes. I found with jazz vocal and acoustic music it can be a nice coloration, but with other more dense material (classic rock) you lose some clarity and definition.

Also agree with Johnny5 that close to the sidewall you eliminate a strong 1st reflection from the sidewall which could be helping, although if you have 244 panels at the first reflection points, this may not really be an issue in your room.

Experimentation is always good! Glad you found something that works for you

[Big Red Machine]

There will a difference between diffusers or absorbers in the first reflections, so try both.  I am convinced that diffusors are the way to go.  I have some tracks that put music behind my head, spooky, but cool!

[Saturn94]

.....
2. I am pretty much convinced ( I do not have an explanation) that toe in is not good for the soundstage for mtm Salks'. ( referring to Jim Smiths theory Get better Sound), I have tried even straight toe-in to sweet spot. All the way, just removes all depth of soundstage and combines sounds to mess accuracy......

Considering you found that placement guidelines don't always work, I'm surprised to see you say this.

In my room my HT2-TLs sounded best spread wide apart and toed in almost directly at the prime LP.  JonnyFive can confirm this setup sounded great. 

Setup guidelines may be a good place to start, but in the end each room is different.

[Vulcan00]

I should have waited some and listen to more music before I posted. Sorry Guys

After playing some different Cd's I was unable to match the magic I found one song. Classic Rock was way to bottom heavy and notes seem to run together.


I have a couple of Stereophile test Cd's that have a soundstage map for reference, I guess I,ll go back for umpteenth time and try to settle on a compromise.

I use to like my speakers with complete toe-in but right now I feel like the soundstage suffers with this method. But your right Saturn you cant be dogmatic when it comes to all rooms and setups.