[aceinc]

Does it really matter one way or the other?  That's a real question, not a rhetorical one.

I have heard Danny say it on numerous occasions in his videos, specifically when talking about binding posts. My question assumes it matters and Danny has either theoretical evidence, empirical evidence or both for his assertions.

Danny has more experience than I will ever have and I value his judgement which is why I wish to learn why steel in the signal path is a problem.

[NoahH]

Interesting articles. Both of them seem to deal with inductors, not iron/steel directly in the signal path. Are some of the attributes the same, perhaps?

I did a quick search for iron or steel in the signal path of audio signals and I couldn't find anything in the first couple of pages of results.

Search for "speed magnetic permeability" and read on Maxwell's equations.

Maxwell's equations are the actually physics behind electronics. All of the equations that EEs use are simplifications of them.

Magnetic permeability affects speed of the waves propagating. The analogy I visualize is that the iron materials are like rocks on the shore when a wave comes along - creating fun y distortions.

This is all at speeds that should not matter in deep theory, but I practice seem to. Another good example of weird velocity effects is global negative feedback: proponents think it is too fast to have an effect, but I have never met an amp that had much that sounded alive and real.

[Letitroll98]

For me it is a cart & horse situation. I would need to believe there would be a difference before I would begin the discussions with a dealer. At this point the conversation would be;

Me: I would like to try some speaker cables in my system.
Dealer: Which cables would you like to try?
Me: The cables which would provide the most noticeable difference.
Dealer: Well I have the Quasimoto MK VIII with Nanominium wire and Vibranium connectors all cryogenically treated creating a single crystal matrix. These are on sale today for $2,375 per meter.
Me: Uh....

Not being a dishonest person I would never waste a dealer's time with no intention to buy something. This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to venture into HiFi stores.

Not to be insulting, but forgive me for pointing out that this is the typical false dichotomy from cable skeptics.  "There's no way I would spend $9,000 on cables so why even try".  Only a tiny, tiny percentage of multi millionaire audiophiles spent that much on cables.  Most audiophiles are burning up their available credit balance to buy $1,500 cables and under $400 is the more typical purchase.  Are those numbers you might entertain taking a risk free chance on?  I'd suggest getting on the phone and talking to some cable manufacturers here on AC explaining that you're a cable skeptic and may very well return the product, price is a major consideration, what would they suggest?  I can't imagine a single one would shrink from the challenge, will you?

[Tyson]

Not to be insulting, but forgive me for pointing out that this is the typical false dichotomy from cable skeptics.  "There's no way I would spend $9,000 on cables so why even try".  Only a tiny, tiny percentage of multi millionaire audiophiles spent that much on cables.  Most audiophiles are burning up their available credit balance to buy $1,500 cables and under $400 is the more typical purchase.  Are those numbers you might entertain taking a risk free chance on?  I'd suggest getting on the phone and talking to some cable manufacturers here on AC explaining that you're a cable skeptic and may very well return the product, price is a major consideration, what would they suggest?  I can't imagine a single one would shrink from the challenge, will you?

I've noticed that a lot of cable skeptics haven't even tried out a good quality cable in their system.  So they aren't even saying something based on experience. 

If they said something like "Well, I tried a nice cable and I heard no difference, therefore cable quality doesn't matter", I'd actually be OK with that. 

But what they generally say instead is something along the lines of "Cables can't matter, so I'm not going to even bother trying one in my system". 

What's so hard about simply trying it out?

[avahifi]

double post

[avahifi]

Note that when Anthony Cordesman recently very favorably reviewed our M225 mono amps for The Absolute Sound, he stated that with these amplifiers premium cables seemed not to make any difference at all.

Frank

[Jaytor]

In my experience, the quality of cables makes a much more significant difference with a highly resolving system. In my home theater system, much uses a Marsntz 8802 AV processor, Sunfire Theater Grand amp, and Revel F50 speakers, I am using Blue Jeans balanced interconnects and speaker cables, and some modest DIY power cables. I tried much more expensive cables in various positions and didn't really notice much difference.

In my two channel system however, which is much more revealing, high quality cables made a much bigger difference. I am currently using Iconoclast UPOCC 4x4 balanced interconnects, Kimber Select KS3035 speaker cables, and mostly DIY power cables built using Neotech UP-OCC Teflon wire and Furutech connectors. I tried many different cables before landing with these and the differences were really apparent. This system has NX-Otica speakers, a variety of amps (including Pass XA60 and DIY 300B monoblocks), DIY preamps, Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC with GAIA DDC, Sonore Signature Rendu streamer.

With an AV processor as a source, I'm not sure it is worth spending a lot on expensive cables. It might be possible to hear a difference, but I think the money might be better spent on a good two channel preamp with home-theater bypass and a separate two channel DAC. And perhaps a higher quality two channel amp. The Maggies have a lot of potential with higher quality electronics driving them.

I am not trying to denegrate the OP's current system - only trying to suggest that further investment is probably better spent on electronics upgrades before investing in expensive cables.

[avahifi]

Not that Anthony Cordesman auditioned our M225 mono amps with both Magico and Wilson speakers. I suggest these were high resolution systems.  Fancy cables made no sonic difference when using the magic M225 amplifiers.

Frank

[WGH]

My main HT/2 channel system uses 12 gauge "zip" cord...

I stopped worrying about speaker cables a long, long time ago. Everybody hates zip cord, I used to use it too. I switched to Kimber Kable 4VS and if there was a difference, it was subtle. But that was back in 1993 and I was using a NAD receiver, although musical it wasn't the most detailed or resolving.

I have never heard the Marantz AV7704 but it is in the same price range of my Anthem AVM 60 preamp/DAC/surround processor. I would never use the AVM 60 to evaluate cables. The Kimber with the AVA CFR Fet Valve preamp/Vision SET 400/Holo May is a lot more resolving, subtle, able to resolve low level details and create a 3-D soundfield than the AVM 60 could ever do, even on it's best day. The AVM 60's stereo sound is flat and un-involving by comparison, although in surround mode with movies the sound is excellent.

As I went from receivers to separates (and spent more money) the Kimber Kables have kept up with the changes. I added a second run of 4VS to make the cable the equivalent of 8VS with an aggregate wire size of 2-10 AWG cables. The original 4VS is close to 13 gauge. I demoed some Zenwave 14 gauge Neotech EC-UPOCC speaker cables ($$$$). They sounded great, the Zenwave are slightly clearer than the Kimber but I discovered 13 and 14 gauge cables attenuate the bass, the Salk HT2-TL speakers has strong bass down to 34 Hz, so I kept the Kimber. The difference between the two cable was too subtle to spend the big bucks but the listening experience was educational.

Why don't I try a double run of zip cord to see how it compares to the Kimber now? Because it would be a royal PIA and everything sounds great now. Getting the polarity right on 4 runs is easy to screw up, I don't need to short out my amp for a stupid experiment. I use the old fat Superflex 2 Monster Speaker Cable (8-10 AWG) on my JBL L100's. The cable slightly rolls off the highs and makes the bass boomy which works great in my woodshop when played real loud. The L100's don't have a real smooth top end and the Monster's tame it just a little. I would expect the zip cord would sound the same with rolled off highs and a boomy bottom.

Our Tucson Audiophile Group was among the first group of guys to hear the new Hapa interconnects. The interconnects made the rounds to a half dozen systems. Nobody anticipated buying them, least of all me. I think Jason sold at least 6 pairs to our group. Even experienced cable skeptics open their wallets when they hear something so noticeable better than anything they have ever heard before. The Hapa cables resolve low level detail and space better than anything in their price range. But... I doubt you would hear these qualities using a reciever or AVR.

Last I heard avahifi has also moved on from using zip cord.

[Early B.]

Not that Anthony Cordesman auditioned our M225 mono amps with both Magico and Wilson speakers. I suggest these were high resolution systems.  Fancy cables made no sonic difference when using the magic M225 amplifiers.

Frank

Well, that was a blanket statement the reviewer made which he provided no support for.

I think we can all agree on two things related to hifi -- quality and synergy matters. Audio component and speaker designers often choose parts based on sound quality, especially for their higher-end products. Why would the selection of cables be held to a different standard?

[RonP]

In my experience, the quality of cables makes a much more significant difference with a highly resolving system. In my home theater system, much uses a Marsntz 8802 AV processor, Sunfire Theater Grand amp, and Revel F50 speakers, I am using Blue Jeans balanced interconnects and speaker cables, and some modest DIY power cables. I tried much more expensive cables in various positions and didn't really notice much difference.

In my two channel system however, which is much more revealing, high quality cables made a much bigger difference. I am currently using Iconoclast UPOCC 4x4 balanced interconnects, Kimber Select KS3035 speaker cables, and mostly DIY power cables built using Neotech UP-OCC Teflon wire and Furutech connectors. I tried many different cables before landing with these and the differences were really apparent. This system has NX-Otica speakers, a variety of amps (including Pass XA60 and DIY 300B monoblocks), DIY preamps, Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC with GAIA DDC, Sonore Signature Rendu streamer.

With an AV processor as a source, I'm not sure it is worth spending a lot on expensive cables. It might be possible to hear a difference, but I think the money might be better spent on a good two channel preamp with home-theater bypass and a separate two channel DAC. And perhaps a higher quality two channel amp. The Maggies have a lot of potential with higher quality electronics driving them.

I am not trying to denegrate the OP's current system - only trying to suggest that further investment is probably better spent on electronics upgrades before investing in expensive cables.

+1 to this

There are plenty of circumstances with gear where you won't be able to notice a difference. Be it type of Amp/PreAmp or the room or speaker placement, etc.

[aceinc]

Not to be insulting, but forgive me for pointing out that this is the typical false dichotomy from cable skeptics.  "There's no way I would spend $9,000 on cables so why even try".  Only a tiny, tiny percentage of multi millionaire audiophiles spent that much on cables.  Most audiophiles are burning up their available credit balance to buy $1,500 cables and under $400 is the more typical purchase.  Are those numbers you might entertain taking a risk free chance on?  I'd suggest getting on the phone and talking to some cable manufacturers here on AC explaining that you're a cable skeptic and may very well return the product, price is a major consideration, what would they suggest?  I can't imagine a single one would shrink from the challenge, will you?

Actually some of the biggest expenditures in my systems $ wise is the pair of OB Subs I bought kits from GR Research. Perhaps the Emotiva XPA1s my wife purchased new and gifted me were more.  Paying $1,500 for speaker cables when your 1KW mono blocks cost new ~$1,000 each seems counter intuitive.

Another way to look at it is;

12 gauge bulk speaker wire is ~$0.52 per foot on a 100' roll. Add connectors at a < $2 a pair so for ~$20 I have a pair of 10' speaker cables. You may pay a bit more for O2 free cable & better connectors.

At $1,500 that would be 75x the cost of what many people claim is all you need. Even at $400 its 20x the cost of simple cables, which again many people who are highly regarded say are all you need.

If you had two different well regarded groups of people, one who tell you $20 spark plug wires are all you need for your car and another group who say $400-$1,500 spark plug wires will give you better performance, you could easily measure the performance. This is a lot more subjective and all you can rely on in the end is your ears.

I personally would feel quite foolish if I spent 20x-75x for something.

[aceinc]

I've noticed that a lot of cable skeptics haven't even tried out a good quality cable in their system.  So they aren't even saying something based on experience. 

If they said something like "Well, I tried a nice cable and I heard no difference, therefore cable quality doesn't matter", I'd actually be OK with that. 

But what they generally say instead is something along the lines of "Cables can't matter, so I'm not going to even bother trying one in my system". 

What's so hard about simply trying it out?

As I said before and others agree, taking advantage of a dealer's "try it and return it" policy when you are fairly certain that you will not buy it is dishonest/immoral.

If someone in S Florida has speaker cables they feel will definitively show me that my preconceptions are wrong in my system, I will be happy to provide smoked pork or roast beef sliced thin and hot off the smoker. I typically have 12-15 year aged rum laying about as well.

I have two systems to try them on, Emotiva & Maggies in a larger room which sounds good. Tubes and Klipsch Cornwall IIIs in a smaller room which needs treatment.

BTW I do not say "Cables can't matter, so I'm not going to even bother trying one in my system" I am willing to try them but haven't heard anything better yet.

[Tyson]

As I said before and others agree, taking advantage of a dealer's "try it and return it" policy when you are fairly certain that you will not buy it is dishonest/immoral.

If someone in S Florida has speaker cables they feel will definitively show me that my preconceptions are wrong in my system, I will be happy to provide smoked pork or roast beef sliced thin and hot off the smoker. I typically have 12-15 year aged rum laying about as well.

I have two systems to try them on, Emotiva & Maggies in a larger room which sounds good. Tubes and Klipsch Cornwall IIIs in a smaller room which needs treatment.

BTW I do not say "Cables can't matter, so I'm not going to even bother trying one in my system" I am willing to try them but haven't heard anything better yet.

Just buy a used cable, then you can sell it for what you bought it for, if you find no difference.  There's ton's of used cables for sale here on AC as well as places like Audiogon and US Audiomart. 

One reason I suggest doing it this way is that with audio, things are not always immediately obvious with regard to sound quality.  Very often, you have to live with a piece of gear (or cable) over a bit of time before you fully grok what it's doing. 

[WGH]

If someone in S Florida has speaker cables they feel will definitively show me that my preconceptions are wrong in my system...

Actually, if someone offers you a listen to their Maggies with different amps and wires, do it. Our informal audio club meets at each others houses. The gatherings are always ear opening, nobody owns the same speakers or electronics but I get a point of reference regarding how my stereo sounds compared to other well curated systems.

I didn't have a point of reference until I went to the 2014 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. A lot of equipment changes happened after that experience.

[aceinc]

Actually, if someone offers you a listen to their Maggies with different amps and wires, do it. Our informal audio club meets at each others houses. The gatherings are always ear opening, nobody owns the same speakers or electronics but I get a point of reference regarding how my stereo sounds compared to other well curated systems.

I didn't have a point of reference until I went to the 2014 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. A lot of equipment changes happened after that experience.

Can't find a local audio group. I went to RMAF in 2017, actually found a video of me on YouTube in a panel discussion (I was in the audience) with Steve Guttenberg and others. I mentioned my music gathering habits, buying CDs at garage sales & pawn shops rather than paying for Spotify...

[rbbert]

I have not watched this, but from what others have said it is something cable skeptics should

https://alpha-audio.net/review/megatest-speaker-cables-real-measurements-samples-and-blind-test/

[PE]

I used to be a skeptic, now I'm agnostic. Lol
I'm an EE (don't hold it against me) and know cables are important. Lowest noise, loss, phase shift, etc. minimum signal degradation.  I am undecided on propagation velocity, but it a factor L and C in a lossless distributed parameter cable.  I do believe low L is the controlling variable in a speaker cable.

I built mine due to the length I required, ~34'
I used 2 each Belden 4x14 cables per speaker.
I used 2 conductors from each cable per pole.
I used hydraulically crimped copper lugs, not spades.
I had to notch them on the amp end since the nuts were captive  I only made the slot wide enough to clear the stud, almost snap on.

The calculated loop R is <0.05 Ohm (70/1000 x 2.42 / 4)
I measured them:
10 Awg jumper stuck into banana receptacles
Meter probes in banana receptacles on amp binding posts.
0.0 Ohm, connectors and all, including bi-wire plates on speakers (not biwired).
Fluke 87V calibrated annually.

The L is very low too 35 x 0.17 uH /2 = 3 uH

These numbers compare favorable to the objective and subjective measures in this paper

Cable: https://edesk.belden.com/products/techdata/english/pdf/5102UP.pdf

Paper: https://www.pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Pease_Lab_Notes/Kaye_Pease_Davis_on_Cables.pdf

[Speedskater]

Total end-to-end resistance is the controlling variable in a speaker cable.
total 'L' only matters with loudspeakers that have very low high frequency impedance. (think Apogee)

[NoahH]

Total end-to-end resistance is the controlling variable in a speaker cable.
total 'L' only matters with loudspeakers that have very low high frequency impedance. (think Apogee)

Resistance... And reactance... And capacitance... Across differing frequencies...