[S Clark]

Cable comparisons are always a crap shoot.  I've had everything from hearing no difference whatsoever to holy mother of God I have a new system!  Therefore my feeling is that it's highly system and environment specific.  I couldn't begin to tell the OP here that he should or shouldn't hear anything or why either of those positions are more valid than the other.  However I can't unhear what I've so very clearly heard, so for me cables can make significant impacts on your system and nothing anyone posts will alter my experience.  That being said I'm still uncomfortable not having a consensus on the mechanisms that drive these differences.  Those on the front lines, EEs, aren't helpful.  Some claim there can't be a difference when they're easily heard by tens of thousands of audiophiles, other EEs hear the difference in the sound of cables, but are all over the place on why.  At the end of the day all we can do at this point is dispense with both "You can't hear anything because either your system or your hearing sucks" and "You audiophools are delusional and easily separated from your money".  Both of those are false narratives.

These are true words of wisdom... even if they are from an Eagles fan.   

[aceinc]

I'm really not trying to be rude.
My experience is that there are few gains to be had with cheap cables.  I've got several I could pass along for inexpensive prices that made some (but not much) difference in my system- from $40 to $100 (about 60+% or more discount from list).  I could even guarantee your money back when you hear no difference, but you'd be out two way shipping.  At least you'd know they were commercial quality from suppliers here on Audio Circle. 
Seriously, PM me if you're interested and I'll give the manufacturer and model. 
Scott

Not rude, to me at least. As a cable skeptic, my ego will not allow me to pay a lot of money for cables, when I have little faith in hearing a difference.

However I do like to tinker. My DIY build approach is to give myself the best chance at hearing a difference without spending money I would be embarassed to admit to, if they don't work.

I appreciate the offer, if you are ever in S Florida and want to pack some cables you are welcome to stop by. I'll even put something on the smoker and provide a few different rums to taste.

[NoahH]

I'm really not trying to be rude.
My experience is that there are few gains to be had with cheap cables.  I've got several I could pass along for inexpensive prices that made some (but not much) difference in my system- from $40 to $100 (about 60+% or more discount from list).  I could even guarantee your money back when you hear no difference, but you'd be out two way shipping.  At least you'd know they were commercial quality from suppliers here on Audio Circle. 
Seriously, PM me if you're interested and I'll give the manufacturer and model. 
Scott

If you are honestly open to buying a good cable if it works, any good dealer will loan you trial cables too. It would be dishonest if you were unwilling to buy though.

[aceinc]

If you are honestly open to buying a good cable if it works, any good dealer will loan you trial cables too. It would be dishonest if you were unwilling to buy though.

For me it is a cart & horse situation. I would need to believe there would be a difference before I would begin the discussions with a dealer. At this point the conversation would be;

Me: I would like to try some speaker cables in my system.
Dealer: Which cables would you like to try?
Me: The cables which would provide the most noticeable difference.
Dealer: Well I have the Quasimoto MK VIII with Nanominium wire and Vibranium connectors all cryogenically treated creating a single crystal matrix. These are on sale today for $2,375 per meter.
Me: Uh....

Not being a dishonest person I would never waste a dealer's time with no intention to buy something. This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to venture into HiFi stores.

[Tyson]

For me it is a cart & horse situation. I would need to believe there would be a difference before I would begin the discussions with a dealer. At this point the conversation would be;

Me: I would like to try some speaker cables in my system.
Dealer: Which cables would you like to try?
Me: The cables which would provide the most noticeable difference.
Dealer: Well I have the Quasimoto MK VIII with Naominium wire and Vibranium connectors all cryogenically treated creating a single crystal matrix. These are on sale today for $2,375 per meter.
Me: Uh....

Not being a dishonest person I would never waste a dealer's time with no intention to buy something. This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to venture into HiFi stores.

This is a good reason to DIY.  It’s relatively simple/easy to learn to solder. The it’s just a question of trying out different materials and geometries for yourself.

[aceinc]

This is a good reason to DIY.  It’s relatively simple/easy to learn to solder. The it’s just a question of trying out different materials and geometries for yourself.

I can solder without burning myself, most of the time.

[corndog71]

For me it is a cart & horse situation. I would need to believe there would be a difference before I would begin the discussions with a dealer. At this point the conversation would be;

Me: I would like to try some speaker cables in my system.
Dealer: Which cables would you like to try?
Me: The cables which would provide the most noticeable difference.
Dealer: Well I have the Quasimoto MK VIII with Naominium wire and Vibranium connectors all cryogenically treated creating a single crystal matrix. These are on sale today for $2,375 per meter.
Me: Uh....

Not being a dishonest person I would never waste a dealer's time with no intention to buy something. This is one of the reasons I find it difficult to venture into HiFi stores.

Fair warning: hand braiding cables is incredibly tedious and time-consuming.  I mean if your up for the challenge then by all means knock yourself out.

Alternatively, several companies offer money back guarantees.  While not cheap by any means, Iconoclast cables are essentially free to try with shipping costs covered both ways.  They also have lots of engineering documentation explaining their designs.

I’m a long time fan of Kimber Kable and have used their TC and VS speaker cables for nearly 30 years.

[aceinc]

Fair warning: hand braiding cables is incredibly tedious and time-consuming.  I mean if your up for the challenge then by all means knock yourself out.

Alternatively, several companies offer money back guarantees.  While not cheap by any means, Iconoclast cables are essentially free to try with shipping costs covered both ways.  They also have lots of engineering documentation explaining their designs.

I’m a long time fan of Kimber Kable and have used their TC and VS speaker cables for nearly 30 years.

I'm not good at tedium, but as I stated above, I will not buy something with the intention of returning it. Based on my current view on cables, this is precisely what I would be doing.

I need to convince myself that cables matter generally, and that they will matter in my system specifically. If I can hear a difference, then perhaps I will be able to convince myself to spend (real) money on them.

[Mitsuman]

Cable comparisons are always a crap shoot.  I've had everything from hearing no difference whatsoever to holy mother of God I have a new system!  Therefore my feeling is that it's highly system and environment specific.  I couldn't begin to tell the OP here that he should or shouldn't hear anything or why either of those positions are more valid than the other.  However I can't unhear what I've so very clearly heard, so for me cables can make significant impacts on your system and nothing anyone posts will alter my experience.  That being said I'm still uncomfortable not having a consensus on the mechanisms that drive these differences.  Those on the front lines, EEs, aren't helpful.  Some claim there can't be a difference when they're easily heard by tens of thousands of audiophiles, other EEs hear the difference in the sound of cables, but are all over the place on why.  At the end of the day all we can do at this point is dispense with both "You can't hear anything because either your system or your hearing sucks" and "You audiophools are delusional and easily separated from your money".  Both of those are false narratives.

I think there is an equal probability, that they're both true. 

[S Clark]

... If I can hear a difference, then perhaps I will be able to convince myself to spend (real) money on them.

And this is the only approach that makes sense with cables.  The times I've bought speaker cables from "reputed" sources, I've regretted it.  But if I can put them in my system and it is a noted improvement, I keep my eyes open for deals on them. 

[rbbert]

You might consider ordering one or more of the Duelund cables.  They are inexpensive and there is a bit of an audiophile "cult" (if you will) which thinks they are competitive with cables costing 50-100x times their price.  You do need to terminate them yourself.

[Danny Richie]

Yes, spade connectors, while not as easy, will work. What would you recommend?

Actually I have Magnepan speakers which I have plugged banana plugs like this, https://www.parts-express.com/Gold-Dual-Banana-Plug-Red-091-332 which I can use spade connectors on. On the amplifiers, there are N-way binding posts which allow spade connectors through the hole and tightened down..

I have performed or designed quite a few upgrades to the Maggies. Ideally, remove the metal plate with the input connectors, steal parts, and pieces, plus a fuse, and discard it. Replace it with a wood panel and a set of tube connectors. On that speaker, the improvement will likely exceed anything you could get with any cable.

[aceinc]

I have performed or designed quite a few upgrades to the Maggies. Ideally, remove the metal plate with the input connectors, steal parts, and pieces, plus a fuse, and discard it. Replace it with a wood panel and a set of tube connectors. On that speaker, the improvement will likely exceed anything you could get with any cable.

Danny, I have seen a number of your videos where you indicate that ferromagnetic parts in the signal path cause problems. I have no reason to doubt what you say but I would be interested in where I can find information as to why this is the case.

I guess I never got over the "why" phase toddlers go through.

[Norman Tracy]

Not Danny but my $0.02 is best somewhat understandable dive into why ferromagnetic parts in the signal path cause problems are courtesy the giant brains at Purifi, specifically these two papers:

https://purifi-audio.com/2020/05/13/combating-hysteresis-distortion-part-1-amplifiers/

https://purifi-audio.com/2020/04/28/dist/

This image taken from the second paper is key.



In physics and engineering such graphs are common when working with materials exhibiting hysteresis.

hys·ter·e·sis
/ˌhistəˈrēsis/

noun PHYSICS
the phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it, as for instance when magnetic induction lags behind the magnetizing force.


Those twisted pointed ovals in the graph show how the ferromagnetic parts are behaving as a test signal is applied and then removed. To be ideally distortion free those ovals would collapse down into straignt lines at 45 degrees. That's why engineers talk about "it's linear" or not because we want a 1:1 relationship between applied input vs. resulting output. Add ferromagnetic parts and the created magnetic fields are non-linear and the desired straight lines open into the loops above. The deep dive R&D Purifi conducted revealed over and above the known hysteresis shown in the graph above are effects that are time lagging and exhibit one behavior as fields build and a different behavior as fields collapse after signal is removed.

[Kaiju2189]

That a nice link to Purifi. Nice to have a third party article on Hysteresis. For $60 it was easy to give tube connectors a try and just listen for me, getting nice copper male and female ends. pretty inexpensive tweak.

Put them on my Klipsch, which had terrible binding posts, and the improvement in space in music was very apparent. Tube connectors were a must on my Spatials and now I’m looking at adding them to my amps as well.

[NoahH]

Related to hysteresis - if you go to the actual physics equations, electromagnetic field propagation speed has magnetic permeability of the substrate it is going through as one of the variables.

[aceinc]

Not Danny but my $0.02 is best somewhat understandable dive into why ferromagnetic parts in the signal path cause problems are courtesy the giant brains at Purifi, specifically these two papers:

https://purifi-audio.com/2020/05/13/combating-hysteresis-distortion-part-1-amplifiers/

https://purifi-audio.com/2020/04/28/dist/

This image taken from the second paper is key.



In physics and engineering such graphs are common when working with materials exhibiting hysteresis.

hys·ter·e·sis
/ˌhistəˈrēsis/

noun PHYSICS
the phenomenon in which the value of a physical property lags behind changes in the effect causing it, as for instance when magnetic induction lags behind the magnetizing force.


Those twisted pointed ovals in the graph show how the ferromagnetic parts are behaving as a test signal is applied and then removed. To be ideally distortion free those ovals would collapse down into straignt lines at 45 degrees. That's why engineers talk about "it's linear" or not because we want a 1:1 relationship between applied input vs. resulting output. Add ferromagnetic parts and the created magnetic fields are non-linear and the desired straight lines open into the loops above. The deep dive R&D Purifi conducted revealed over and above the known hysteresis shown in the graph above are effects that are time lagging and exhibit one behavior as fields build and a different behavior as fields collapse after signal is removed.

Interesting articles. Both of them seem to deal with inductors, not iron/steel directly in the signal path. Are some of the attributes the same, perhaps?

I did a quick search for iron or steel in the signal path of audio signals and I couldn't find anything in the first couple of pages of results.

[Tyson]

Interesting articles. Both of them seem to deal with inductors, not iron/steel directly in the signal path. Are some of the attributes the same, perhaps?

I did a quick search for iron or steel in the signal path of audio signals and I couldn't find anything in the first couple of pages of results.

Does it really matter one way or the other?  That's a real question, not a rhetorical one. 

[artur9]

Replace it with a wood panel and a set of tube connectors.

A link to a picture of a tube connector?  I don't know what that is.

Would such a mod improve the Mini Maggies as well?

[Hobbsmeerkat]

A link to a picture of a tube connector?  I don't know what that is.

Would such a mod improve the Mini Maggies as well?

These:
https://gr-research.com/product/electra-cable-tube-connectors/

Low-mass, high surface area with near tip-to-tip contact between external and internal speaker wire.

From what i remember of the Mini maggies, they're a tight space, and you'll be removing a lot of steel from the signal path.