Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers

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DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #20 on: 30 Jan 2022, 05:48 am »
Aurender N10 and love it.
I was very interested in the Aurender offerings, but I really like Roon and I understand Aurender is not a partner with Roon.  I’m sure it’s a nice unit!

sjsfiveo

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #21 on: 30 Jan 2022, 06:19 am »
Correct no roon, but I'm not a fan of roon so I'm ok with that.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #22 on: 5 Feb 2022, 06:28 am »
Correct no roon, but I'm not a fan of roon so I'm ok with that.
I’ve had the Lumin U1 Mini burning in since 1/31 and I noticed it sounds incredibly good using it’s Lumin app with local files and Qobuz.  When I used it as a Roon endpoint, it did not sound as good as it did while using it without Roon.  The decay and airy soundstage was veiled using it as a Roon endpoint.  The other concern is the Lumin app is terrible, although it sounds incredible using the Lumin as a stand alone unit with the app, I just can’t sacrifice the terrible app in order to get the superior SQ.  So, I am doing the following; letting it continue to burn-in, I have a DH Labs AES cable on order, as I’ve been advised that the AES connection sounds better than the usb, and I have an SOtM sMS-200 Neo SE streamer and SOtM power supply on order for a shootout with the Lumin.  The streamer battle will take place next week.  The SOtM may be a keeper if it can perform as a Roon endpoint with the SQ the Lumin produces without serving as a Roon endpoint.  If it fails, I am considering the Aurender N150 or N200.  I just need to see if the Aurender conducter app will suffice since I can’t use it with Roon.  How would you rate the Aurender conductor app on a scale of 1 to 10?  Also, have you compared your N10 to any other streamers in your rig?

Thanks!

JackD

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #23 on: 5 Feb 2022, 07:08 am »
If you're determined to use Roon in spite of it's inferior sound quality then stick with one of the end points that don't have their own software and are meant to be used with Roon like SOTM or Sonore. The other companies like Lumin, Auralic and Aurender are optimized for use with their own software first.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #24 on: 5 Feb 2022, 07:31 am »
If you're determined to use Roon in spite of it's inferior sound quality then stick with one of the end points that don't have their own software and are meant to be used with Roon like SOTM or Sonore. The other companies like Lumin, Auralic and Aurender are optimized for use with their own software first.
I understand all of the above and I have only experienced Roon’s inferior SQ with one streamer at this time.  I’m exploring and will make a final decision on what will work best for me. I’m not married to Roon, although it has the best music player experience, to me, at the present time.  The Aurender may be a brand that has an app that works for me and that’s why I asked jsjfiveo for his experience with the Aurender app.

sjsfiveo

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #25 on: 5 Feb 2022, 02:20 pm »
I happen to like the conductor app very much but again it's all personal preference. I find it very easy to use and navigate. People love there roon and that's great it's just not for me. I had a Innous before the Aurender. It started out ok but had many software glitches that took many tries for there technicians to try and figure out. I got frustrated and out jumped ship. AES EBU it's totally the way to go sounds much better. USB is noisy why do you think manufacturers put all their efforts and money trying to clean that signal path up.

newzooreview

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #26 on: 5 Feb 2022, 03:28 pm »
If you're determined to use Roon in spite of it's inferior sound quality then stick with one of the end points that don't have their own software and are meant to be used with Roon like SOTM or Sonore. The other companies like Lumin, Auralic and Aurender are optimized for use with their own software first.

What are you finding that sounds better than Roon?

My experience is with Auralic, SoTM streamers (on two occasions), Raspberry Pi Roon endpoints, and a battery-powered and modified Mac Mini running Audirvana Plus. Nothing has sounded better than running Roon from a Roon Rock NUC via USB directly to my Holo May KTE DAC. It may just be that that combination is particularly effective.

I owned an Auralic Aries G2.1, and it was not good. I set it up with their Lightning DS software since they do not implement Roon well despite claiming to be Roon Ready. Lightning DS is clumsy and buggy, and the sound via Lightning DS was not as good as running Roon via Ropieee on a Raspberry Pi with an Allo DigiOne HAT powered by an Uptone Ultracap and output via a very expensive coax cable to the DAC. With the Auralic the well-done marketing did not correlate to better sound. Investing in the coax cable and an extremely pared-down digital streaming device with clean power gave me better results than the Auralic for $1600 compared to $6000.

SoTM is even worse than Auralic. The devices have major issues with their network connectivity, and the software is a mess. When I tried to work with sporadically responsive customer service to get a software update that was supposed to address their network connectivity bugs, I found that there were three different versions of the "current" software. US customer service sent me an outdated version compared to the one on the very confusing SoTM website itself, and a third version was posted by SoTM on a customer support forum. I've connected more than 100 devices to my home network flawlessly, and the SoTM streamer is the only device that failed to acquire an IP address from the network. It never did work, and there was nobody at SoTM who would support the product (beyond the "did you plug it in" kind of level zero "technical support"). I actually tried SoTM several years after the first bad experience, at a different home on a different home network that was also working perfectly with everything else, and I had the same end result with SoTM: buggy software that wouldn't acquire an IP address from the network and helpless "technical support".

I haven't yet fully experienced the sound quality with Roon on my M3 Sapphires. My recently added Pass Labs XA25 shows that there is more there still. I'm am certainly open to there being something better than Roon, but I have not run across it yet despite years of trying a variety of options.

Desertpilot

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #27 on: 5 Feb 2022, 03:55 pm »
I use either JRiver Media Center or ROON on my Windows based music server via USB to my DAC.  The DAC sends the analog signal direct via XLR to my amplifier.  I do not hear any sound quality issues using either music player.  Volume up with no music playing is dead silent from my X3 speakers.  Because of this thread, I searched for ROON sound quality issues.  Whoa!  Lovers and haters everywhere.  In my opinion, it is impossible to definitively state ROON is good or bad based on user reviews.

My DAC (exaSound multichannel S88) provides me with proprietary ASIO drivers for my music server.  These drivers allow "bit perfect" flow of data to the DAC.  The DAC is built to eliminate (based on their marketing material) jitter, clock issues, etc..  Either player works equally well via USB.  However, just to eliminate a variable, I was encouraged to use the DAC's LAN input (all ethernet, no wireless) rather than USB (all controlled on my Android Pad).  Using LAN eliminates using JRiver.  But, using ROON and switching between LAN and USB, again, I could not hear any sonic differences.  A nice plus to the LAN input is that I can control channel trims as well as overall volume (useful for us multichannel music folks).

Both JRiver (via its ASIO drivers) and ROON (via its ROON RAAT protocol) state that sending native DSD/PCM/DXD data to the DAC is "bit perfect".  If it is indeed bit perfect, then I personally believe it is the DAC that is the prime determiner of sound quality.  I have had no sound quality issues with Qobuz as a streamer because I access it using ROON (again, ROON RAAT controls the data sending bit perfect data to my DAC).

Marcus

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #28 on: 5 Feb 2022, 06:24 pm »
What are you finding that sounds better than Roon?

My experience is with Auralic, SoTM streamers (on two occasions), Raspberry Pi Roon endpoints, and a battery-powered and modified Mac Mini running Audirvana Plus. Nothing has sounded better than running Roon from a Roon Rock NUC via USB directly to my Holo May KTE DAC. It may just be that that combination is particularly effective.
I have spoken to the USA Distributor of SOtM, Kamal of (Crux Audio), to ask about customer service because I read another post about lack of customer service with SOtM products.  Kamal claims he provides good customer service and SOtM was a simple network player when used as a Roon endpoint.  He responded to me by phone or email every time I reached out to him, but that doesn’t mean I’ll get the same response once the product is in hand?  I am concerned because customer service is a big deal to me.  I will have it in house for a test run next week.  I may come out of this rabbit hole with a Roon Rock setup like you?  Thanks for sharing your experience!

I use either JRiver Media Center or ROON on my Windows based music server via USB to my DAC.  The DAC sends the analog signal direct via XLR to my amplifier.  I do not hear any sound quality issues using either music player.  Volume up with no music playing is dead silent from my X3 speakers.  Because of this thread, I searched for ROON sound quality issues.  Whoa!  Lovers and haters everywhere.

Marcus
Roon does seem to have its share of lovers and haters!  Lol…. It’s all preference and that’s fine with me.  I’ve learned so much about new music, different jazz artists and the accompanying sidemen with all the jazz music I listen to by using Roon!  That has been very beneficial to me.  Thanks, Marcus

I happen to like the conductor app very much but again it's all personal preference. I find it very easy to use and navigate. People love there roon and that's great it's just not for me. I had a Innous before the Aurender. It started out ok but had many software glitches that took many tries for there technicians to try and figure out. I got frustrated and out jumped ship. AES EBU it's totally the way to go sounds much better. USB is noisy why do you think manufacturers put all their efforts and money trying to clean that signal path up.
The Aurender is really starting to appeal to me, so we will see how things shake out for my music streamer adventure.  I noticed the balanced AES output is only available on the higher tier Aurender streamers.  I’m speaking of the models that do not have DACs.  The N200, for $6k adds a coax output, but no balanced AES, but the USB output may sound superb with my Holo Audio DAC?  Thanks again!

newzooreview

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #29 on: 5 Feb 2022, 07:35 pm »
…SOtM products.

…but the USB output may sound superb with my Holo Audio DAC?  Thanks again!

SoTM processed the return of the streamer and power supply without a problem on both occasions, so there is little risk in my experience. My frustrations are just one data point.

Yes, very definitely use (or at least try) the USB input on the Holo May DAC. I held off on trying that for a few months, and it is by far the best input. The other inputs on the Holo May are very well implemented, as well any, but their USB receiver is unique and truly excellent.

abomwell

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #30 on: 5 Feb 2022, 07:47 pm »
My Windows based Music Vault Diamond has Roon/Quboz installed in it. It feeds my DSPeaker Anti-mode X4 (via USB) with a built-in DAC. I was using a Benchmark DAC2 DX but couldn't hear any improvement over the X4's DAC so I took it out of the chain. Alternately, I wonder if a Roon Nucleus or Nucleus+ feeding the Benchmark DAC would offer any sonic advantages over what I have. Does anyone here use the Roon Nucleus?

TomS

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #31 on: 6 Feb 2022, 12:41 am »
SoTM processed the return of the streamer and power supply without a problem on both occasions, so there is little risk in my experience. My frustrations are just one data point.

Mine would be a second data point on SoTM, pretty much the same experience as you and I gave up long ago. It had too many dropouts and there were always issues when the power cycled. It took forever to get it resync'd. I replaced it with several devices having ethernet inputs over time, Mola Mola, PS Audio, Cambridge CXN V2, RPi, with zero issues on those, and the same network. I've had a Bricasti M1SE for quite some time now, never a connectivity issue. I use 100% Roon, and it sounds terrific.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #32 on: 6 Feb 2022, 03:58 am »
Mine would be a second data point on SoTM, pretty much the same experience as you and I gave up long ago. It had too many dropouts and there were always issues when the power cycled. It took forever to get it resync'd. I replaced it with several devices having ethernet inputs over time, Mola Mola, PS Audio, Cambridge CXN V2, RPi, with zero issues on those, and the same network. I've had a Bricasti M1SE for quite some time now, never a connectivity issue. I use 100% Roon, and it sounds terrific.
If it's not too much to explain, how were you trying to use the SOtM in your setup; Roon endpoint exclusively?  Did your SOtM dropouts cause the unit to disappear from Roon, requiring you to power cycle it?  Did you buy the SOtM power supply or use any external power supply?  If so, how did it sound, in spite of the dropouts?  I had the Sonore UltraRendu for about a week with no issues.  I returned it to upgrade to the OpticalRendu and thats when the dropouts began, but I never had to reboot it.  It would either start playing again on its own or I had to press play to start the music.  I returned it and moved on.  Lastly, the Bricasti beast that you have looks very nice!

SoTM processed the return of the streamer and power supply without a problem on both occasions, so there is little risk in my experience. My frustrations are just one data point.

Yes, very definitely use (or at least try) the USB input on the Holo May DAC. I held off on trying that for a few months, and it is by far the best input. The other inputs on the Holo May are very well implemented, as well any, but their USB receiver is unique and truly excellent.
I have the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, so I do benefit from the same USB module as the May DAC?

Bingenito

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #33 on: 6 Feb 2022, 12:36 pm »
Having used several streamers and sold them all… I am waiting for a streamer that has i2s, uses Tidal and Qobuz natively and has a real power supply. Until then they are all very compromised vs a quality CD transport so I am using the lowest cost compromise… a few yr old mac book pro via usb.

To another posters point the software on some of these $$$$ streamers sucks pretty bad. One day you get an update and your playlists are gone from the UX layer. Then they take 2 weeks to fix that and your recommended music is no longer visible. This is because as the native streaming software and software for the streamer itself evolve their release schedules and testing are not in sync.

Laptop or mac mini… no issues. Both sound much better than a bluesound node latest version. About on par with my former Aurender. Jays Audio CDT2 MKIII stomps them all pretty hard. You dont even have to listen for the difference it is audible in 5 seconds to an untrained ear.

mrotino332

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #34 on: 6 Feb 2022, 03:03 pm »
This is the reason I chose the Metrum Acoustics Ambre streamer.  It is basically a highly modified raspberry Pi player which has an added internal linear power supply, upgraded clocks and other upgraded parts and has I2S output as well as USB, coax and aes/ebu.  The I2s output uses an ethernet cable and some I2S outputs are hdmi cables as there is no standard on this.  So there could be a compatibility issue using the I2S output to a DAC even if it has an I2S input.   I bought a Metrum Acoustics DAC so there are no compatibility issues using I2S.  Metrum is only sold factory direct from the Netherlands and there are no US dealers so that could be a negative although I have not had any issues ordering from them but that is something to consider.

You can use many available streaming services by swapping the microsd card in the ambre.  I tried roon via ropee software fed from a nucleus and have settled on using Volumio as I found the sound quality was better using Volumio.  Both software can stream Tidal and Qobuz natively and volumio is a cheaper yearly subscription.  There may be ways to stream Tidal and Qobuz natively via a free software but I'm not aware of this however the Volumio yearly membership is inexpensive.  Volumio is an Italian software company so again probably not popular in the US.  Roon is a much more powerful software and has a better overall appearance/experience and more functions but that was not very important to me and I preferred the better sound quality I obtained from Volumio.  I basically just want to be able to stream Tidal and Qobuz natively and make playlists.  Volumio is very light weight and doesn't require a nucleus or external PC for the core/operating system so that may have something to do with sound quality (less equipment in the chain) but I know others have compared Roon to other software and prefer Roon.  I believe the big selling point for roon also is the very good music integration with your existing collection and Roon radio.

I also found the I2S connection to be the superior connection with AES/EBU second overall. 


newzooreview

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #35 on: 6 Feb 2022, 04:11 pm »
If it's not too much to explain, how were you trying to use the SOtM in your setup; Roon endpoint exclusively?

I have the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, so I do benefit from the same USB module as the May DAC?

Yes, the KTE version of the Holo Spring 3 DAC has the same Titanis 2.0 field-programmable gate array (FPGA) USB receiver as the Holo May DAC. This allows Holo to develop "custom firmware [e.g., programmed into the FPGA] to improve USB Eye Pattern and reduce latency to near zero as well as reduce jitter to very very low levels. The USB module has completely new code written to optimize performance and reduce latency significantly. Low frequency performance (-40db) is also improved."

Below is an example of Eye Pattern -- a test mode in USB that allows signal integrity from output to input on the cable to be checked (US Patent US20050267712A1 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20050267712A1/en)

Again, the audio file is transmitted as an analogue signal that is reconstructed without the possibility of error correction into the bits AND the timing of an audio file by the USB receiver, so improving the eye pattern is a very reasonable goal.

Regarding the SoTM in my case, the streamer never appeared on my network. I would connect it directly to my 24 port Ubiquiti network switch with a very high quality (hand tested) Cat 6a (or Cat 5) cable and turn it on, let it boot up, and then check the switch to see what devices were on what ports. The SoTM never established connection to the switch. The SoTM never even got to the point where I could type its IP address into a browser to open it's built-in html interface, because the SoTM never even acquired an IP address from the network—unlike any of the more than 100 devices I have ever connected by ethernet to my network. There are absolutely no restrictions on my LAN for new devices (everything is allowed to acquire an IP address, no MAC filtering or anything: plug something into the switch and the network issues an IP address whenever asked to do so). So, I did not get to the point of knowing whether there were secondary issues with the SoTM such as dropouts or random reboots, etc. I have had no issues at all with my Roon Rock NUC, however, and none at all with a Raspberry Pi running Ropieee as a Roon server.




newzooreview

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #36 on: 6 Feb 2022, 04:21 pm »
I tried roon via ropee software fed from a nucleus and have settled on using Volumio as I found the sound quality was better using Volumio.  Both software can stream Tidal and Qobuz natively and volumio is a cheaper yearly subscription.

If you are using a Roon Nucleus, you could connect the Nucleus via USB out to USB in on the DAC and remove the Metrum Ambre from the source chain. Roon handles Tidal and Qobuz, so no need for a separate Volumio subscription either.

The Roon Nucleus can be powered from a 19v linear power supply with a chunky toroid. I bought one for my Roon Rock NUC with an R-core transformer that is very well made for about $230.

I'm sure you've considered or tried the above. Just noting it for others who may benefit from the information.


TomS

Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #37 on: 6 Feb 2022, 07:27 pm »
If it's not too much to explain, how were you trying to use the SOtM in your setup; Roon endpoint exclusively?  Did your SOtM dropouts cause the unit to disappear from Roon, requiring you to power cycle it?  Did you buy the SOtM power supply or use any external power supply?  If so, how did it sound, in spite of the dropouts?  I had the Sonore UltraRendu for about a week with no issues.  I returned it to upgrade to the OpticalRendu and thats when the dropouts began, but I never had to reboot it.  It would either start playing again on its own or I had to press play to start the music.  I returned it and moved on. 
I had the SoTM SMS200 with ext clock input, and matching power supply. I used mostly Roon endpoint from a ROCK server. No matter the mode, I had problems with it not coming back up after power interruptions (we live on an island, so power jukes and jibes). Or, if ANY other network component restarted, it was immediately unhappy. After a few incantations it would eventually restart and appear again. Total PITA, they couldn't solve it, so I sold it. For reasons I can't recall they wouldn't take it back, either too much time passed before I finally got fed up (weeks), or I bought a "demo" or maybe both. It sounded ok, but I would bet the RPi4 RiopeeXL is just as good, just didn't have them side by side to compare. Oh, and the Pi is absolutely rock solid on the network too, restarts itself as necessary and just plays. Less than $100 all in.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #38 on: 6 Feb 2022, 09:57 pm »
Yes, the KTE version of the Holo Spring 3 DAC has the same Titanis 2.0 field-programmable gate array (FPGA) USB receiver as the Holo May DAC.

Regarding the SoTM in my case, the streamer never appeared on my network.

I’ve had excellent SQ using my Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE USB input, so I am good with it, but I will be trying the AES input to compare.

Too bad the SOtM would not connect to your network.  Geesh….  I would have liked to get your feedback on its SQ, but no cigars.  I have 1GB upload/download speeds and an English Electric 8Switch to connect the SOtM.  I should take delivery of it tomorrow or Tuesday, so we’ll see how it goes after burn in.  Thanks

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Music Streamers with Spatial Audio Speakers
« Reply #39 on: 6 Feb 2022, 10:03 pm »
I had the SoTM SMS200 with ext clock input, and matching power supply. I used mostly Roon endpoint from a ROCK server. No matter the mode, I had problems with it not coming back up after power interruptions (we live on an island, so power jukes and jibes). Or, if ANY other network component restarted, it was immediately unhappy. After a few incantations it would eventually restart and appear again. Total PITA, they couldn't solve it, so I sold it.
Thats terrible and I hope I don’t have the same experience.  Thanks for sharing!