AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: KTS on 9 Apr 2023, 06:30 pm
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251870)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251871)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251872)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251873)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251874)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251875)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251876)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251877)
Here are some pictures of my NX Studio build, the only thing left is cutting out the wave guide :scratch: , finishing the veneer and wiring, so still a bit of work!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251695)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251859)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251860)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251861)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251862)
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Man, that is going to be a world class setup when you are done!
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I am getting pretty excited to get to listen to the music on the new setup! I have always struggled with bass being accurate and from what I have seen and read this set up should be an outstanding full range setup. I have the Encore’s and love them, but Danny said the Studio’s are a significant step up, I could not fathom that would be the case (the Encore’s sound awesome) but I figured I would go all in and see what everyone is talking about. I have never been steered wrong in this forum and I love DIY audio so far!!!
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Just a couple of progress pictures
Cut the veneer from the wave guide and finished assembly of subs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251983)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251982)
Cutting the veneer around the wave guide was nerve racking but the end result was satisfactory.
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Veneer around the waveguide would scare the crap out of me. :slap: that looks to be some good progress and it looks fantastic! Keep up the good work. Just wait til you get to fire up those bad boys.
I haven't heard any other studio monitor give soundstage in a true 3 dimensionality including height and it's trippy to hear. When you finally get these finished, keep a bottle of ibuprofen handy because your face will be sore from smiling so much. :lol:
-Lloyd
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Veneer around the waveguide would scare the crap out of me. :slap: that looks to be some good progress and it looks fantastic! Keep up the good work. Just wait til you get to fire up those bad boys.
I haven't heard any other studio monitor give soundstage in a true 3 dimensionality including height and it's trippy to hear. When you finally get these finished, keep a bottle of ibuprofen handy because your face will be sore from smiling so much. :lol:
-Lloyd
https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=239054
I followed your build and was amazed at your ability’s! I should get the Studio’s up and running by Sunday, hopefully!
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Just a quick update
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252110)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252113)
Sorry for the awful photos, but the build is done and I am braking the NX studios in.
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(https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/cwclp.gif)
Now it's time to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
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How do you like the sound?
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How do you like the sound?
I will need to move the speakers around a bit. The detail is amazing, but adding the subs and new speaker at the same time to my system has thrown some things off a bit. I am not qualified to review anything audio related, but my initial thoughts were they sound awesome but need to burn in a bit. They sound big and I look forward to using the LOTS set up again to get them where they sound the best. I also wanted to share some thoughts about the subs, absolutely awesome bass, super accurate and the only sub I’ve ever had that sounds correct in my room. Just some advice for anyone building the subs, if you are moving them up or down some stairs I would wait to put the drivers in until the are in the room you are using them, I am not sure how much they weigh, but it was all I could do to carry them up stairs by myself.
In short love the sound of the NX Studio and Double Trouble subs, I will give more impression after I spend mor than an hour with them.
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Try placing the monitors on top of the subs (isolate the monitors from the sub, of course). This offers four advantages -- saves floor space, eliminates the need for speaker stands, it will bring the subs farther from the side walls, and it should provide better integration.
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Try placing the monitors on top of the subs (isolate the monitors from the sub, of course). This offers four advantages -- saves floor space, eliminates the need for speaker stands, it will bring the subs farther from the side walls, and it should provide better integration.
I agree. And the isolation doesn’t have to be super expensive. Herbie’s Audio makes good stuff for cheap.
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Try placing the monitors on top of the subs (isolate the monitors from the sub, of course). This offers four advantages -- saves floor space, eliminates the need for speaker stands, it will bring the subs farther from the side walls, and it should provide better integration.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252143)
Early B,
That was the ticket, now I hear what everyone is saying about the NX Studio!! Indescribably good at most everything! Thank you for the tip, that is why I love this forum!
Much appreciated! Kelly
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I agree. And the isolation doesn’t have to be super expensive. Herbie’s Audio makes good stuff for cheap.
Thank you Tyson I used isolation pads on the four corners of the speakers. They are made out of sorbothane. They seem to work well.
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Thank you Tyson I used isolation pads on the four corners of the speakers. They are made out of sorbothane. They seem to work well.
Good stuff 👍🏻
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FWIW, I use IsoAcoustics Mini Pucks under my NX Studio Monitors. This with a more conventional 24" stand, not a subwoofer. They end up being a bit more costly as one needs six under each monitor. My monitors weigh in around 32-33 lbs. So with a 6 lb. weight limit, 6 are required under each speaker. I ended up buying two 8 packs to the tune of $200. So 4 pucks are left over in my case. For those who have built a more complex cabinet or xover, maybe the extras would come in handy.
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FWIW, I use IsoAcoustics Mini Pucks under my NX Studio Monitors. This with a more conventional 24" stand, not a subwoofer. They end up being a bit more costly as one needs six under each monitor. My monitors weigh in around 32-33 lbs. So with a 6 lb. weight limit, 6 are required under each speaker. I ended up buying two 8 packs to the tune of $200. So 4 pucks are left over in my case. For those who have built a more complex cabinet or xover, maybe the extras would come in handy.
Yup, I went 4 of the indigo isolators under mine as they have a bit higher load. You could get by with 3 for weight rating, but my dogs mandated I get a 4th for stability...
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FWIW, I use IsoAcoustics Mini Pucks under my NX Studio Monitors. This with a more conventional 24" stand, not a subwoofer. They end up being a bit more costly as one needs six under each monitor. My monitors weigh in around 32-33 lbs. So with a 6 lb. weight limit, 6 are required under each speaker. I ended up buying two 8 packs to the tune of $200. So 4 pucks are left over in my case. For those who have built a more complex cabinet or xover, maybe the extras would come in handy.
I will look into the mini pucks and the indigo isolation thank you for the suggestions!
I originally thought it would take the tweeters us too high using the subs as a stand, but the vertical off axis response must be outstanding. I cannot tell it is causing any dip at all. They have been running non stop for 12 hours and just continue to get more focused and dynamic.
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I originally thought it would take the tweeters us too high using the subs as a stand, but the vertical off axis response must be outstanding.
There are lots of audio myths and ear height is one of them. If I could, I'd experiment with suspending my speakers from the ceiling as you see in jazz clubs and concert venues.
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I will look into the mini pucks and the indigo isolation thank you for the suggestions!
I originally thought it would take the tweeters us too high using the subs as a stand, but the vertical off axis response must be outstanding. I cannot tell it is causing any dip at all. They have been running non stop for 12 hours and just continue to get more focused and dynamic.
Both vertical and horizontal off axis is outstanding with the NX Studio.
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Nice job on selection!
Once they're completely burned in, your going to hear details with playback material, you might not of never heard before. At least in my experience with the Studio's anyways. Looking good on your build, by the way, nice job. Your going to be spoiled with this combination, it truly is a special combination for sure. I agree with tyson, you knocked it out of the park on your purchase! The another benefit with them being ontop of the OB Subs, they'll be more stable than them being supported with the stands you have. Based on what I could see based on photos shown anyways.
If I may ask, what associated electronics are you running alongside the Studio's? Looks like your utilizing Danny's Speaker cabling too?
Cheers,
NX STUDIO DRUMMER :drums:
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Re: burn in, you’ll have about 20 hours where they sound pretty good! Then the next 70 hours will sound like ass and you will question your sanity. Then they will slowly improve bit by bit for another 70 hours, at which point they will sound pretty good! But even then you are not done. They will continue to improve bit by bit for another 50 hours or so and then they will be truly outstanding and you are hearing them in their full glory.
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Nice job on selection!
Once they're completely burned in, your going to hear details with playback material, you might not of never heard before. At least in my experience with the Studio's anyways. Looking good on your build, by the way, nice job. Your going to be spoiled with this combination, it truly is a special combination for sure. I agree with tyson, you knocked it out of the park on your purchase! The another benefit with them being ontop of the OB Subs, they'll be more stable than them being supported with the stands you have. Based on what I could see based on photos shown anyways.
If I may ask, what associated electronics are you running alongside the Studio's? Looks like your utilizing Danny's Speaker cabling too?
Cheers,
Thank you for the kind words!
In my system I have a Denafrips Ares II , Emotiva differential reference CD player as a transport, Shiit Freya + with JJ’s and a Schiit Vidar amp, I do not have any high end cables except for the speaker cables (24 strand kit I purchased from Danny) the interconnects are Audioquest forest and the long interconnects are WBC. This was the best I could do on a budget, I plan on changing some cables as I move through this journey. I use my I phone as a streamer through an Apple photo adapter into the dac usb, I have tried inexpensive streamers but they do not do well in my system.
NX STUDIO DRUMMER :drums:
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Re: burn in, you’ll have about 20 hours where they sound pretty good! Then the next 70 hours will sound like ass and you will question your sanity. Then they will slowly improve bit by bit for another 70 hours, at which point they will sound pretty good! But even then you are not done. They will continue to improve bit by bit for another 50 hours or so and then they will be truly outstanding and you are hearing them in their full glory.
Understood Tyson, I have been playing them all night and plan on continuing to until I get some hours on them.
Thank you, Kelly
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Re: burn in, you’ll have about 20 hours where they sound pretty good! Then the next 70 hours will sound like ass and you will question your sanity. Then they will slowly improve bit by bit for another 70 hours, at which point they will sound pretty good! But even then you are not done. They will continue to improve bit by bit for another 50 hours or so and then they will be truly outstanding and you are hearing them in their full glory.
Here lately I've been using the 22:2 method.
22 hours of play, 2 hours of rest, it gives the dielectric time to settle/relax between burn-in periods.
And I've had some pretty good results when burning in the VCap crossovers in, but they were definitely more dramatic than I expected with some days where they sounded really nice, and others where they were pretty rough and plenty of days in between.
Ill end up doing it again when I start comparing the silver vs copper bypass caps
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I think burn-in time also depends on the capacitors used. My big Miflexes seem to continue to improve over several months of playing them 6-8 hours/day.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246126)
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Hobbs is exactly right - run a signal through the speakers for 22 hours and let them rest for 2 hours every day, this will speed up the burn in process.
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Here lately I've been using the 22:2 method.
22 hours of play, 2 hours of rest, it gives the dielectric time to settle/relax between burn-in periods.
And I've had some pretty good results when burning in the VCap crossovers in, but they were definitely more dramatic than I expected with some days where they sounded really nice, and others where they were pretty rough and plenty of days in between.
Ill end up doing it again when I start comparing the silver vs copper bypass caps
Thank you for the advice Hobbs! Much appreciated, starting the new process today.
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I think burn-in time also depends on the capacitors used. My big Miflexes seem to continue to improve over several months of playing them 6-8 hours/day.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=246126)
:o Are they from your crossover in your line force?
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:o Are they from your crossover in your line force?
Yes. They are sounding fabulous!
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Re: burn in, you’ll have about 20 hours where they sound pretty good! Then the next 70 hours will sound like ass and you will question your sanity. Then they will slowly improve bit by bit for another 70 hours, at which point they will sound pretty good! But even then you are not done. They will continue to improve bit by bit for another 50 hours or so and then they will be truly outstanding and you are hearing them in their full glory.
Yes I am at step 2!! I am glad you told me, I would have thought something went terribly wrong. I have a buddy coming over to measure this weekend and dial in the speakers vs the subs, do we need to wait until after they are done burning in?
Here is what I have gleaned from Danny’s videos and from the forum.
1. Set speakers to where they sound best.
2. Set phase on subs to 0 then 180 to determine phase relation the higher output of the two setting is closest
3. Measure the speaker one at a time no subs find the low frequency accounting for room gains
4. Measures the sub one at a time and set the control to allow for a (here is where I get confused) 6db difference or a 12db difference? I know the goal is to sum as flat as possible.
5. Look for peaks or troughs in the response and use the controls on the sub to correct.
I am not experienced and my friend who is helping has some, but I wanted to be sure I am getting started correctly.
Thank you, Kelly
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Kelly those all sound like a good starter set of rules for dialing everything in. As for delaying for the speakers to sound better, I don't think it's necessary. While they will improve sound wise over time, they should still measure the same or damn near enough to not make a difference. There may be a tiny bit better low end as time goes 9n, but that would be solved with little tweaks down the line. Just try to not pull your hair out chasing theoretical performance gains. Lol.
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Kelly those all sound like a good starter set of rules for dialing everything in. As for delaying for the speakers to sound better, I don't think it's necessary. While they will improve sound wise over time, they should still measure the same or damn near enough to not make a difference. There may be a tiny bit better low end as time goes 9n, but that would be solved with little tweaks down the line. Just try to not pull your hair out chasing theoretical performance gains. Lol.
Understood, thank you for the advice!
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Yes I am at step 2!! I am glad you told me, I would have thought something went terribly wrong. I have a buddy coming over to measure this weekend and dial in the speakers vs the subs, do we need to wait until after they are done burning in?
Here is what I have gleaned from Danny’s videos and from the forum.
1. Set speakers to where they sound best.
2. Set phase on subs to 0 then 180 to determine phase relation the higher output of the two setting is closest
3. Measure the speaker one at a time no subs find the low frequency accounting for room gains
4. Measures the sub one at a time and set the control to allow for a (here is where I get confused) 6db difference or a 12db difference? I know the goal is to sum as flat as possible.
5. Look for peaks or troughs in the response and use the controls on the sub to correct.
I am not experienced and my friend who is helping has some, but I wanted to be sure I am getting started correctly.
Thank you, Kelly
That's a really good plan, very similar to what I do. One other piece of advice - If you have any peaks/valleys on the subs bass response, only use the EQ to cut a peak. NEVER use the sub EQ to try to fill a dip.
Also, don't be afraid to move around the listening position. Sometimes moving forward (or backwards) can have a profound affect on the bass you get at the listening position.
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That's a really good plan, very similar to what I do. One other piece of advice - If you have any peaks/valleys on the subs bass response, only use the EQ to cut a peak. NEVER use the sub EQ to try to fill a dip.
Also, don't be afraid to move around the listening position. Sometimes moving forward (or backwards) can have a profound affect on the bass you get at the listening position.
Thank you Tyson
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Just wanted to send an update and close out this thread, the Studios have been running in for approximately 170 hrs and a friend came over to measure this evening, primarily to start the process of integrating the subs, the NX Studio’s measured very flat to 65-70, we adjusted the subs appropriately. I really am not good at or qualified to give a review, but I will say the sound they produce has to be heard in person to really understand the realism they produce. I had no frame of reference to draw from just outstanding in every way possible and does not leave anything on the table. Kudos to Danny for designing a speaker that performs at this level as a DIY kit! If you are thinking of the NX Studios for a project, I would not hesitate to recommend, absolutely outstanding!
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Just a couple of progress pictures
Cut the veneer from the wave guide and finished assembly of subs.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251983)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=251982)
Cutting the veneer around the wave guide was nerve racking but the end result was satisfactory.
WOW veneering the waveguide... impressive!
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=252143)
Early B,
That was the ticket, now I hear what everyone is saying about the NX Studio!! Indescribably good at most everything! Thank you for the tip, that is why I love this forum!
Much appreciated! Kelly
It seems kind of natural to place the subs like that but maybe someone could comment on how the bass could be affected by trying rotating the subs?
Amazing job on the speakers! So cool!
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Rotating the subs will put you in the bass null OB subs create to the side, don’t do it.
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I'd like to see measurements of that?? A lot of prominent speaker designs have side firing woofers, i'm not saying that it isn't so i'd just like to see the data.
Don
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I'd like to see measurements of that?? A lot of prominent speaker designs have side firing woofers, i'm not saying that it isn't so i'd just like to see the data.
Don
Box speakers are not like that, you can move to the side and no loss of bass. But OB there's a substantial drop off to the side. If you own OB speakers, you can easily hear/feel it when you walk by them.
Just google 'figure 8 radiation pattern open baffle' and you will find some interesting stuff.
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It seems kind of natural to place the subs like that but maybe someone could comment on how the bass could be affected by trying rotating the subs?
Amazing job on the speakers! So cool!
Thank you! It was a fun build.
I have moved the subs around and where they are positioned in the picture works well in my room. I have also moved my seating position around per a suggestion from Tyson and that impacted the output level. The sub’s really image very well and are accurate, best I have ever owned.
Kelly
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Would still love to see the data from the listening position, saying it's so, and seeing it is so are completely different.
Don
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Would still love to see the data from the listening position, saying it's so, and seeing it is so are completely different.
Don
I do not have or have the ability to get data, but I understand the ask. Maybe someone has the info available or has the ability to measure. I am pretty archaic and rely on seeing with my ears at this point. Lol
Thank you, Kelly
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Would still love to see the data from the listening position, saying it's so, and seeing it is so are completely different.
Don
Open baffle subs are a Dipole: You can "see" it modeled here...
["Boxed" subs are Monopole]
https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/rad2/mdq.html
Does that help?
A
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Open baffle subs are a Dipole: You can "see" it modeled here...
["Boxed" subs are Monopole]
https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/demos/rad2/mdq.html
Does that help?
A
Also, Linkwitz shows the practical application in loudspeakers and some of the things needed to make OB work well, here:
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/models.htm
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And this was another Linkwitz point on position -- put the woofers near the sidewalls and angle them...
"A dipole woofer should be placed near the side walls, provided the distance from woofer to listener is nearly the same as that from the midrange. Again, most likely practical limitations will have to guide best dipole speaker placement for room modes as well as for first reflections off room boundaries"
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q31
This is a good suggestion... you wan them "pointed at the listening position" but nearer the sidewalls is not a bad idea - equidistant to the midrange.
It seems kind of natural to place the subs like that but maybe someone could comment on how the bass could be affected by trying rotating the subs?
Amazing job on the speakers! So cool!
This was another interesting comment, buried in that same FAQ:
"by angling the dipole its coupling to specific modes can be changed"
Which is why i think he suggested angling them.
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And this was another Linkwitz point on position -- put the woofers near the sidewalls and angle them...
"A dipole woofer should be placed near the side walls, provided the distance from woofer to listener is nearly the same as that from the midrange. Again, most likely practical limitations will have to guide best dipole speaker placement for room modes as well as for first reflections off room boundaries"
https://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q31
This is a good suggestion... you wan them "pointed at the listening position" but nearer the sidewalls is not a bad idea - equidistant to the midrange.
This was another interesting comment, buried in that same FAQ:
"by angling the dipole its coupling to specific modes can be changed"
Which is why i think he suggested angling them.
I will give it a shot when I get back home, I did angle them when I was trying to find the best position for the subs, but I probably did not give it it’s due diligence, it sounded like it decreased output and the soundstage was off in comparison to keeping them forward. The data says it could make a difference, so I will try it again, for a longer period of time and l report back.
Thank you,
Kelly,
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Well not sure where the listening position is. But you will want them "pointed at" your listening position, generally speaking.
I was just mentioning how "angling" has a benefit.
So if you were to have them positioned separate from the monitors, then you could try putting them near the side walls and angling toward you - but same distance from them as the monitors... in an arc.
Maybe not great for your specific case, but for someone else's this might be useful info.
-Tony