[Tangram]

I’m using a Pass Labs XA25 with my M3 Sapphires with nice results but I’m curious to hear from those Spatial owners who don’t have a powered woofer model or subs who use tube amps. I’ve read that 4-ohm speakers aren’t ideal for tube amps but I’ve noted over the past couple of years that a few of you use them. Add to that Clayton using LTA tube amps for demos and the recent announcement of the Don Sachs-designed tube monoblocs.

I listen at a decent volume (85 db C-weighted peaks) and prize high-quality bass. With these two points along with my passive 4-ohm speakers, would I be taking a step back with tubes vs. my XA25?

[rm86350]

I'm using a Rogue Stereo 100 Dark and the bass is very tight and descriptive. I talked with another M3 Sapphire owner who had Rogue mono blocks and a Pass Labs XA25 and he said the bass was similar. I haven't heard the Don Sachs amps, but I'm sure they sound nice. I heard the M3 Sapphires with the LTA amps at The Show in Long Beach in 2021 with Clayton there. I was very impressed with that sound and placed an order that day. As of right now I don't feel a need to change amps.

[AllanS]

Have you read this thread?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0

[Daryl Zero]

I’m using a Pass Labs XA25 with my M3 Sapphires with nice results but I’m curious to hear from those Spatial owners who don’t have a powered woofer model or subs who use tube amps. I’ve read that 4-ohm speakers aren’t ideal for tube amps but I’ve noted over the past couple of years that a few of you use them. Add to that Clayton using LTA tube amps for demos and the recent announcement of the Don Sachs-designed tube monoblocs.

I listen at a decent volume (85 db C-weighted peaks) and prize high-quality bass. With these two points along with my passive 4-ohm speakers, would I be taking a step back with tubes vs. my XA25?

Don Sachs' Valhalla amp would drive your speakers including the passive woofers. They used it on the M4 Ultras (which have passive bass woofers) at Pacific Audio Fest and it sounded great. I thought it sounded about 85% as good as the mono-blocks that will cost 4x the price (when the preamp is factored in).

I thought that the Valhalla's biggest leap over the LTA integrated was in the bass area so I think you would be happy with it. Supposedly the Spatial Audio crew preferred this amp over others. Plus Cloud Sessions has improved the components on it since Don turned it over to him (Don's words).

Just my two cents on the thread linked above.

[Tangram]

Have you read this thread?
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=183364.0

Yes, thanks. To be clear, I am not at the stage of WHICH tube amp. I am trying to determine what the difference in sound presentation between the XA25 and a suitable tube amp would be. The Spatials are 4-ohm speakers. Tube amps of days gone by were seeing 10 ohm or higher speaker impedances. The designer for Atma-sphere has commented on Audiogon that his amps (highly regarded for sure!) are most suitable for 8 ohm and higher.

I recognize this sort of exercise isn’t perfect since there people hear differently and value certain audio characteristics that might not align with my own preferences. For example, I appreciate the comments on the Rogue amp (there happens to be a Dark version for sale locally) and the comments about the bass, yet I read in two reviews that the bass isn’t its strongest point. Adequate, but not standout.

Notwithstanding the flaws in this approach, the Toronto Audiofest is three weeks away and I want to go armed with some knowledge/questions (mostly questions) about tube amps for my setup. On that note, can anyone point me to an impedance sweep for the M3 Sapphires that I can prnt and take with me to the show?

Thanks for the responses so far. That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.

[AllanS]

hought that the Valhalla's biggest leap over the LTA integrated was in the bass area so I think you would be happy with it. Supposedly the Spatial Audio crew preferred this amp over others. Plus Cloud Sessions has improved the components on it since Don turned it over to him (Don's words).

In page 4 of your thread I posted Cloud’s comments in response to a question I asked about the Valhalla. His set up uses M4’s so not an exact apples to apples M3 comparison but likely representative of the passive response.
  Clayton also mentioned the Valhalla in a meeting with the SF Audio Society that is linked on the DS Valhalla page. 
http://www.dsachsconsulting.com/valhalla%20integrated.html

[Mr. Big]

Yes, thanks. To be clear, I am not at the stage of WHICH tube amp. I am trying to determine what the difference in sound presentation between the XA25 and a suitable tube amp would be. The Spatials are 4-ohm speakers. Tube amps of days gone by were seeing 10 ohm or higher speaker impedances. The designer for Atma-sphere has commented on Audiogon that his amps (highly regarded for sure!) are most suitable for 8 ohm and higher.

I recognize this sort of exercise isn’t perfect since there people hear differently and value certain audio characteristics that might not align with my own preferences. For example, I appreciate the comments on the Rogue amp (there happens to be a Dark version for sale locally) and the comments about the bass, yet I read in two reviews that the bass isn’t its strongest point. Adequate, but not standout.

Notwithstanding the flaws in this approach, the Toronto Audiofest is three weeks away and I want to go armed with some knowledge/questions (mostly questions) about tube amps for my setup. On that note, can anyone point me to an impedance sweep for the M3 Sapphires that I can prnt and take with me to the show?

Thanks for the responses so far. That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.

Something like a really well-made tube amp by McIntosh McIntosh mc275 mark vi. Would be [perfect power-wise and synergy to your speakers and it has 4-ohm taps. BUT you cannot go by what the speaker says, I've found you have to try both 4-8ohm taps and the one that gives you the dynamics and bass response is the one to use. My Dynaudio Confidence speakers were 8 Ohm but when Don from McIntosh told me one day have you ever tried the 4-ohm taps? I said no he suggested I try them, and when I did my jaw dropped, slam, bass, blacker background etc. Was like I purchased a new system/speaker. Another learning experience for me is if you have an amp where you can choose, they by all means take a minute and try them. Now on my Sapphire M3, the 8-ohm tape worked the best even though the specs say a 4-ohm load. So there you go. The 4-ohm tap with these speakers sounded dead/boring. So give it a try if you own a tube amp that allows you to choose the best matching output for your speakers.

[Early B.]

That local used Rogue Dark is tempting but I think it’s premature to pull the trigger on anything until I understand what tubes give that the XA25 doesn’t.

There's only one way to find out -- you gotta spend the time and money to experiment with a few high-quality tube amps. But you can't stop with the amp. You gotta mate the amp with a tube preamp, at a minimum. It's a vicious cycle and the best-sounding tubes cost almost as much as the gear.

[Tangram]

I have that covered. EAR 868pl using either Amperex Bugle Boy or Seimens tubes. I use the MM input with an Allnic AUT-2000 SUT. Pretty happy with it.

[Tyson]

For a speaker with dual passive woofers and dipping to 4 ohm impedance, my experience has been that you should stick with push-pull amps because SETs (even big SETs) tend to struggle with that type of load. 

Of the push-pull amps, I like Cary and Don Sachs because they use octals in their driver stage.

[Audiosaurusrex]

I own the M3 Sapphires and started with SS gear, Parasound, Krell, SPL. I had never owned a tube amp and wanted so bad to hear the difference with these outstanding speakers. I was tempted with the Raven line but wound up going up the Octave line. Started with the V40se and then to the V80se. Both amps were stunning and drove the Sapphires beautifully. Wound up with the V70 Class A which was my end game. Not sure of your budget but you might explore if that might be of interest to you.

[morganc]

You're getting sound advice here.  Until you hear a few amps with various tubes you're not really gonna have any idea.  Unless you have a small room, I'd go with a push pull.  I've owned the Don Saxhs and the LTA. The Bib Carver crimson is also a very easy and inexpensive way to enter the tube world and they have great customer service as well. Don Sachs is a stellar guy as well and if you can find one of his used I'll bet you will love it as most do.  I've owned two. 

[Tangram]

I’d be curious to hear from M-series owners who have used Class A solid state amps (like the XA25) as well as tube amps with their Spatials. What differences do you hear and why do you prefer one over the other?

Also, I took this screen grab of the impedance sweep from the New Record Day video review. Apologies that the scales can’t be read easily. Bottoms out at 3.3 ohms at 50 Hz. If anything I have too much energy (yes, measured) with the Pass amp at 50 Hz. I interpret that as the room’s resonant frequency. Could be a happy coincidence if I try tubes!

[abd1]

All good advice especially the Octave, Sachs and LTA. I would add Primaluna to the mix. If you're looking used you can usually find good deals on the Dialogue Premium amps or integrateds if you don't have a dedicated preamp. I've owned a few PL products and currently have the Evo300 which has been my favorite. The amp is dead quiet, superb dynamics and can run so many different tubes (I have way too many). After trying many different amps (mostly tube) over the past 3 years I wound up going back to PL because it just does everything so well. I also have a Line Magnetic 518 integrated, which I'll be selling, because I just got a great deal on a used 845 Premium that's always been on the bucket list and won't need the 518, which is also a magical amp. But my first tube amp was a Primaluna and I loved it and I would recommend it with your speakers and tube amp simply because of the versatility of trying different tubes.

Since your speakers are reasonably efficient I recommend the PL amps that only use 4 power tubes (Dialogue Premium or Evo300, not the HP models or Evo400). When I listened to the HP I felt it was more dynamic but lost some tube magic and if you tube roll you'll need to spend 2x due to doubling the power tube count. Save some money and look for a Dialogue (not the prologue series) Premium. No matter which tube amp you chose I think you'll be surprised by the sound vs solid state. I know for me, once I heard the tube sound I haven't found a solid state amp I prefer.

[Mr. Big]

I grew up with tubes and love them, but for the last 20 years solid state because it sounds so good in its own right. I match amp and preamp currently Mark Levinson 326S preamp and 532H two channel amp that can drive about any speaker made. Runs hot and it can put out some good current, drives my Spatial Audio Sapphire M3's superbly. Don't miss tubes at all while still have my love for them, but you can keep the cost of retubing and QA issues with tubes of today. I used NOS tubes only when I had tubes, the EL34 is still my must musical sounding tubes for amps. I can just sit back and enjoy my system now days without worry about tube rolling to find a sound/coloration that pleases my ear, or if a tube is going bad and such. If I purchased tube gear today it be McIntosh or to save some money Prima Luna, McIntosh has over 60 years in making tube gear, so they know what they are doing, for tube amps I would only buy pure tube that means a tube rectifier in the power supply NO solid state, I want tube gear to sound like a tube gear. Prima Luna does use tube through their amps, so a tube rectifier. Good design and they know what they are doing. Same for a tube preamp 100% tube in the power supply, and simple circuits with beefy power supply where it can kill you if you go in a touch an area you should not touch, I've done that, and it was no fun. Oh, the good old days of the 70's and 80's.

My Sapphires M3's just sing with my Mcintosh MC 402 amp @400 watts and today my Mark Levinson 523H @300 watts along with the matching preamp the 326S. The system sounds as natural as tubes at their best, but with huge dynamics, micro dynamics, ultra-low noise flood where you can hear a violin subside into nothingness. Hear breaths being taken on one recording before the piece starts for the recordings and so on. 

[joc3721]

Solid state has gotten so good I don't think there's a good argument for tube gear anymore, other than nostalgia or the cool factor. I've owned both over many years. I don't miss the heat, maintenance, noise and fiddly-ness.  Just one man's experience. There is certainly great soung tube gear out there, and equally great solid state.

[morganc]

Solid state has gotten so good I don't think there's a good argument for tube gear anymore, other than nostalgia or the cool factor. I've owned both over many years. I don't miss the heat, maintenance, noise and fiddly-ness.  Just one man's experience. There is certainly great soung tube gear out there, and equally great solid state.

I was a tube guy myself and have owned at least 30 of really good tubes and agree with you entirely. I'm over tube noises, scarcity of good tubes, etc and the new Gen SS amps give me all that I need.   

[catluck]

Like the other tube apostates, I've also given up on tubes.  Many of you may remember the GanFet thread.  For the last 13 months I've been using MiniGan 5 monoblocks and I don't see myself returning to tubes.  And this from a 30 year tube devotee (albeit I also owned good SS kit).  I remember with my BAT VK-51SE (and 52SE) there often seemed to be at least one 6H30 that didn't want to play nice with the others (spitting, sputtering, etc.).  Ditto for many other tube amps I owned.  I loved my Psvane 845 monoblocks but, simply put, they are not as engaging as the 5 lb GanFet toys. I've now sold my Manley Neo-Classic 300B amps used in the upstairs system (and the Psvane, Granite Audio, Hartung 125 OTL monos are all for sale).   Although I remain with an extraordinary stash of n7's, l7's, etc., I just can't justify the tube ritual/cost/weight/heat given the engaging extraordinary sound of SS.  Never would have believed it. But I guess if Ralph Karsten can make the leap to SS (GanFets), well....

[Early B.]

I've gone back to tubes, and some of you SS guys may return, as well. Two decades ago I had a pair of Rogue tube monoblocks, and then moved back to solid state for a long time until recently. Generally, tubes provide a different sound from solid-state, but for most people, this difference, even if preferred, isn't worth the added price and aggravation. Whereas solid-state is the practical choice, tubes have a naturalness to their sound that solid-state seeks to emulate, but can't quite get there. Good-sounding solid state is relatively less expensive now with the advent of Class D whereas the opposite is true for tube gear. Really great-sounding tubed components require a substantial investment -- in many cases they they have doubled in price over the past three years.     

[catluck]

Early B - totally respect your opinion but I find myself disagreeing.  I can't say that I'm the final arbiter of what sounds more natural anymore than any other listener. As has been said too many times, we each have our preferred distortion spectra. For myself, I find the tone/timbre of GanFets to be the more natural sounding in comparison to tubes. In fact, as I wrote earlier, I don't use typical descriptors, i.e., "rich," "bloomy," "dense," etc., with GanFets. GanFets just sound "right" to me.  And it could be that the frequency spectrum is susceptible to segmentation where one technology victors over the other at least for that frequency range. But, again, tubes sound more natural than SS?  I keep coming back to Ralph Karsten who, for those who may not know, is the owner and designer of Atma-Sphere amps and who, in a recent San Francisco Audiophile Society podcast revealed that in his personal system he is now listening exclusively to GanFet (having released GanFet monoblocks about 18 months ago).  You could be correct that someday I'll return to tubes but after almost 50 years in this "hobby" and listening intently to GanFets both upstairs and downstairs for the last year, I'm not thinking so.