Taming the Ribbon Mid Panel "presence" Peak - DSP VMPS Specific Tweaks

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 896 times.

GeorgeAb

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 378
I was reviewing some older posts on DCX2496 crossover settings and I found an interesting comment Brian made concerning mid panel "presence" peak as he called it.  This post by Brian concerns dialing in a room which had limited dampening: https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59669.msg530833#msg530833 and the comment of interest, "2.9 dB of cut between 1 and 3kHz (Q=2.6 centered at 1.9 kHz) to tame the ribbon mid panel "presence" peak its designer was so fond of (curse you, Dragoslav!)"

I just dialed in -2.9db at 1.9Hz with a Q of 2.6 into my DSP engine, and need to spend some time with it.

This other comment was of interest, "a 220Hz xover at 24dB lowpass and 12dB highpass, and another proprietary EQ which I use to reduce IM distortion." Anyone know what the "proprietary EQ" Brian used?

Most of my DSP setting deal with room issues, as opposed to making VMPS speakers sound better like the above tweak Brian pointed out.  Any DSP tweaks that you use that are VMPS speaker specific to improve their sound to you?

Evoke

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 232
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Hello. I knew Brian and John Casler, probably Brian's biggest fan and one of his top dealers. I also produce a planar line of speakers. So I'm familiar with many of these issues first hand. I think we all know of another unnamed person very critical of Brian. As for Dragoslav, there are really just a few guys on the planet that have the patents for these planar devices. Truly a pain. There are knockoffs out of China - just the QC sucks. B&G from PE do a great job - but upgrading is always a challenge - first for fitment, and then the crossover is a start over - nothing is a true direct replacement - unless the exact same part. And even then, when I replace a mid woofer etc, I replace it in both speakers.


As you are an audiophile, you should start with the room before applying corrections to the speaker. If you have a significant other - they already tolerate you, or have left you - so why not treat the room :-)  Simple 12 x 12 x 2 acoustic pads are great for a wide range. I have one room with 50% of the room dead. It delivers a really nice performance. Then, you can tweak with levels etc and really get results. Correcting for peaks before correcting the room may reduce the peak, but cause other issues in that band.


No offense to anyone, but proprietary usually means "how I use a stock item" or intellectual property. I don't share my crossover designs - that's what really makes my speakers work. All of Brians parts were readily available - the magic was in how he made it all work.


There are several notable exceptions with exclusivity - the EMIM from Infinity, Magnepan, Martin Logan etc.


Using an electronic crossover with amps for each driver will offer the greatest performance upgrade. Crossover slopes get tricky. 6 db crossovers are very smooth, but blur imaging and specificity. They are wonderful sounding, a bit lush... 24db crossovers, on the other hand, are also phase correct, and allow each driver to perform to its best. The imaging SNAPS into place. Dynamics improve as well.


There's a reason for the 24/12 design. By dropping off the panel low end, it gets less fussy. It can perform better in its optimal range. Rolling off the woofer at 12, gives a fullness in the higher frequencies that the panel can't do.


As a general note, mixing crossover slopes requires a skilled hand, and in general, it's a nightmare. Most of my designs are 18db/oct and 24db/oct depending on the demand of the application.


Why 220? Well, contrary to so much forum chat, planar devices have limits. Dragoslav designed this driver - originally intended for a desk top speaker. It wasn't intended to be played loud - do he quoted a low frequency cutoff. In real world speakers for 89 db playback the crossover had to be thought out.


Now, planar types are easy to design down to 1000 hz. As you go down to 800, 500, 300, 150 it gets dramatically more complicated and you have to move more and more air. Pricing also increases the same. There's a reason Magnapans are so large - A large panel with little excursion is needed to equal the volume of displacement of a 10 or 12" woofer.


The BG Neo 8 is happy to about 800, the Neo 10 is good to about 300, unless you do an array and are good with cabinet geometry. And then you still only get to about 150. SO, yes, the VMPS panel can go low - but 220 is about the lowest with a 24db crossover that will really make it sing with less distortion and a tone more dynamics.


Oh, sorry - I've rambled again. Hope I didn't piss anyone off. It's important to remember, that I hold Brian in high esteem, and enjoyed his products. He was ahead of his time. If he were still alive, I like to think he would have created some OEM planars. Costs  have gone down. Ah, in the next life...

G E

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 624
Thank you, Evoke, for the lessons in crossover networks.  Dark magic for sure.

It took me a long time to get good sound out of my RM 30 speakers.  Even longer to get great sound.

The electronics are one key.  i started with a van alstine solid state amp.  Nope.
Got a Bryston 4bsst2.  Better but the midrange never sounded or felt right.  Next.
Got the big Bryston 28 bsst2 mono blocks.  Now we are getting somewhere.  The Class A operation for first 50 watts probably has something to do with it.  They did a real nice job voicing  the 28.  It's just a bit sweeter than the rest of the line.

The big difference that predates the VMPS speakers is room treatment.  The space was unlistenable before I did it.  I put in 8 foot corner traps, front, side and rear wall absorption panels.  WOW!  What a diff.  Easy to build too.

Last year I finally got around to treating the ceiling.  That made a nice difference too.  It's a dedicated room so WAF doesn't factor in.  She even says get all the equipment you want.  You've worked hard and the kids are gone.  :-)

She knows I am too responsible to go too nuts on this stuff.


Since then it's been cable change outs and some equipment location changes.

I moved a tube based phono preamp out of the equipment rack and on to a stand next to it.  I thought I was hallucinating the sound was so clear and pure.  There were lots of power cords hanging down the back, probably picked up some 60hz signal even though hum wasn't evident.  Tubes are like antennae...

Lots of things to try George.  My one last challenge is a moveable panel in front of my plasma monitor, a Pioneer elite kuro with less than 5,000 hours, still looks great.

Evoke

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 232
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
The Bryston monos are WONDERFUL. Most of the time you're using 10 watts - so those speakers of yours must sound liquid smooth! Isn't it amazing to see how room treatment works? The ceiling makes a difference in so many ways. The reflections really get in the way of accuracy. You know, it wasn't until I created EVOKE that I got serious about cables. We did our first show in Newport. Every cable company was there. We tried a bunch. They all sounded VERY different - a non-audiophile could hear it - it was THAT obvious. One, FYI, truly sucked. The one we chose was just a revelation!  Note - your KURO still works - lucky you. I think OLED came out slow and expensive and already has a bad rap about burn-in. I'm currerntly using a Sony XBR. Not cheap but the blacks are VERY good. Meets many theatrical standards. If you ever get a chance to compare side by side it would be interesting to get your opinion !!!  Be well and thanks for all your input - nice to know I'm not the only crazy one out here LOL

Rocket_Ronny

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1397
  • Your Room Is Everything - Use It Well.
    • ScriptureSongs.com
Changing amps multiple times to tame a rise in the frequency response seems like a convoluted and expensive way to fix the problem. With a digital e.q. Inserted in the chain it’s super easy to fix. Plus you can totally change the sound of the speakers to your liking.

Rocket Ronny

Evoke

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 232
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Changing an amp to solve a problem with a speaker is not a solution for sure. Typically, it's best to look at the room, placement etc. Outside of that are there issues with a driver or the crossover topology.


The only times I specify front end electronics are for tri and quad amp pro applications. At that point, the room is tuned as best as can - understandably a lot of money was spent to get it right in the first place. Very little EQ is required to correct any issues. Very little.


As for amps, expensive or not, tubes sound different than transistors, and all the variation of classes. Class A is amongst my favorites. Nuprime uses a Class AD topology and it's pretty darn good value/dollar. Outside of my really expensive reference amps, I use NuPrimes all over the place.

G E

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 624
The Bryston monos are WONDERFUL. Most of the time you're using 10 watts - so those speakers of yours must sound liquid smooth! Isn't it amazing to see how room treatment works? The ceiling makes a difference in so many ways. The reflections really get in the way of accuracy. You know, it wasn't until I created EVOKE that I got serious about cables. We did our first show in Newport. Every cable company was there. We tried a bunch. They all sounded VERY different - a non-audiophile could hear it - it was THAT obvious. One, FYI, truly sucked. The one we chose was just a revelation!  Note - your KURO still works - lucky you. I think OLED came out slow and expensive and already has a bad rap about burn-in. I'm currerntly using a Sony XBR. Not cheap but the blacks are VERY good. Meets many theatrical standards. If you ever get a chance to compare side by side it would be interesting to get your opinion !!!  Be well and thanks for all your input - nice to know I'm not the only crazy one out here LOL

My friend who has an all tube VAC system says those big Brystons sound really close to tubes.  They did a fantastic job with them. The first 5% of the power it runs in Class A, that is 50 watts.  So i have a 950 watt reserve :-)  The new stuff has to meet EU power conservation mandates so only first 1-2% is Class A.  A good reason to stick with the rev 2 series.

The AVA amp  was grainy and didn't have balls which surprised me.  It was product from about 15 years ago.  Previously I used van Alstine's Omega 3 amp, circa 2000, had lots of current and could drive really low impedance speakers with authority.  140 watts a channel with my Infinity Kappa 8's which dip below 2 ohms.  Really musical combination and fun to listen to but not the last word in resolution.  i heard detail in my car system that eluded my home set up.  So i made changes. 

Amps do sound different and they certainly have different reliability characteristics.  Several years ago my wife put together a sound system for her studio.  She demo'd amps from van Alstine, bryston and Parasound.  3 completely different sound signatures and imaging profiles.  The AVA threw a 3 D sound stage that was amazing.  But neither of us wanted to listen to it for more than a couple of hours, listener fatigue.  The Parasound power amp was the John Curl design.  It carved a really fun bass line but ultimately it felt like a one trick pony.  The Bryston integrated was the best all arounder is what is in her system today 10 years later.  Yes, she made the decision, not I.

Cables are interesting.  For decades I scoffed that they could make a difference... especially power cables.  A couple of single blind tests changed that.  Some are NOT particularly  different, i found that to be the case with Pangea stuff.  But adding Cardas Clear Beyond power cables to the bryston 28s ... I was flabbergasted. 

I recently upgraded all my signal cable to Black Cat (Chris Sommovigo) from the high end of the Morrow line.  The Morrow replaced a hodge-podge of Radio Shack Gold and Blue Jeans cables and it was a nice step up.  But I read some good reviews of Black Cat and tried his phono cable to get lower capacitance (the Morrow was very high) and I like what I heard and kept going.  The etchy character of detail with the Morrows was replaced with a delicate, articulate musical presentation that beguiles.  Tonality is gorgeous.  And this is with his 2nd to the bottom of the line stuff.    So the entire loom is now Black Cat 32xx series.  Chris is local and I've invited him to come over with a couple of samples.  Dangerous, I know.

Some say cables don't matter, they can't hear a difference.  I'm tired of that debate so I'm inclined to say, "Yes, I agree you can't hear a difference."  Some people are color blind.  I'm sure there is an analogous condition with hearing where people don't perceive aural tonality differences well. 

I do not possess perfect pitch but I do tune in to distortion and sound that is "off".  It's been a lifelong pursuit to have the best sound reproduction I can have and VMPS speakers are responsible for a good part of this success.  There is zero listening fatigue with my system, 5-6 hour sessions are not uncommon.

Anyway, it's a fun pursuit.  Some guys have hot cars or big boats, i have a hot rod stereo system.


Evoke

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 232
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
You bring up a good point about power cables. Recording studios have known this all along. 20 years ago, we had dedicated mains and grounds. No transformers were allowed anywhere near the AC feeds. If something had to cross it had to be at 90 degrees. If you look at photos of a control room - you'll see the light dimmer feeds with 6" knobs. They cost a pretty penny. It was just another example of what they all knew back then.


Before I drop dead I want to build a room at home like that :-)

GeorgeAb

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 378
Really good points on getting good sound. My initial post was an attempt to bring to light an issue Brian mentioned with the neos that one can experiment with as now days many use DSP engines. A few keystrokes for a minor tweak; a picture may better represent. I am still spending time with it. My initial impressions is that it is not quite as forward. Really not sure what I prefer, but I am leaning towards Brian’s recommended correction as more natural.



Still stuck on Brian’s “proprietary EQ”. Great point of how the designer uses stock parts in a crossover is considered proprietary.  However, with the context of using the DCX2496; it may be an unsolved mystery.

Greg (GE) your comment put a smile on my face; yea, ditto:  “Anyway, it's a fun pursuit. Some guys have hot cars or big boats, i have a hot rod stereo system.”     
« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2020, 08:04 am by GeorgeAb »

G E

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 624
I put in a dedicated 20 amp line when I built my space. I got pass & Seymour hospital grade receptacles in bright orange. Nice reminder which outlets are on the circuit. It’s been 20 years.

Wipers in the outlets still grip well. Some of the builder grade jobs upstairs can barely hold on to a lamp cord. I’ve replaced lots of them.

I also added a Torus Tot Mini to power the low signal stuff. The noise floor went down nicely.

Not sure I’d do it for the mono blocks. They have big toroidal in them already. Some on the Bryston forum say it’s a worthy upgrade. Might have to check it out.

Controlling noise -electrical and environmental - is a big part of achieving top sound.

Evoke

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 232
    • EVOKE Planar Loudspeakers
Totally awesome. There is one forum written by a total moron that claims anyone that doesn't agree with him must own Bose. On the other hand, PS Audio ran this article and it's pretty cool! Thanks G E for your post!!!!!


 psaudio (dot) com/ps_how/how-to-install-a-dedicated-ac-line/