AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: Chris Adams on 27 May 2012, 08:09 pm
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I've noticed some are concerned with venting their cases or not.
I built mono blocks using the same case Siliconray is selling. There are no vents in the cases, they are completely closed. I've had them running since about 3pm yesterday at low volume. Not soft enough to carry on a conversation, but not at my usual listeng levels. I have checked the case temp at various times and the room temp at the same time. The cases seem to run about 21-22F higher than the room temp. Last night before I went to bed the room had gotten to about 80F. The cases measured 102F. This morning the room had cooled to about 67F. Cases were 88F. This afternoon, room temp 73F, cases 95F.
So far, very consistent. The mono blocks have measured within 1 degree of each other every time.
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Thanks for the empirical measurements Chris. Regardless...people will continue to have the 'heebeejeebees' regarding heat sink management with this amplifier. If so, drill some vent holes or use a thicker heat sink. But honestly, it is a waste, in most audiophile systems. The manufacturer has already made his recommendations in the instruction manual, and has stated that most metal based cases like the SiliconRay model you and I have chosen is enough. It is Class D done right after all! My speakers are 95 to 96 dB sensitive...I will hardly be taxing this amplifier.
Given the small draw in wattage from the wall, most can afford to keep this amp on...all the time. :green:
Best,
Anand.
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Thanks Chris for the info!!
That is good to know they run relatively cool and sealed cases sure keep the bugs and dust out.
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Given the small draw in wattage from the wall, most can afford to keep this amp on...all the time. :green:
Though one thing to consider is that while Class D is (when competently done) more efficient at delivering power, it's not necessarily more efficient at idling than an AB amp. Also, my experience with other Class D designs is that they actually get hotter when idling than under load. That may not be true of the NCores, but it's something to consider.
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Just for fun, I ran my stereo box (2 amps, 2 PSs) through a cheap watt meter. With no load, it drew ~30 watts; disconnecting the nAMPON line from ground dropped it to ~20 watts.
I measured this only a few minutes after start up. The draw seemed to be decreasing slowly over time; I quit after about 10 minutes, when it was about 28/18 watts, respectively.
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The case temperature does not equal what temperature the devices in either the power supply or the module are operating at.
In the case of the switch-mode power supply, the MOSFET doing the switching is passing all of the power that the amp is using. It will be heat-sinked but it wouldn't hurt to have a line of perforations along the edge of the top and the bottom of the case to let some of the heat in the box escape making the heat-sinking more effective. If it is working correctly you should be able to touch the heat-sink for a long three count, if you can't touch it for a three count then the device is running to hot and its operational lifetime will have to de-rated due excessively high operating temperatures.
If I were building one of these I would use heat-sink compound between the module and the aluminum case to facilitate heat transfer from the module to the aluminum floor of the case. It's easy, cheap to do and it also couldn't hurt the longevity of the amplifier.
Scotty
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If I were building one of these I would use heat-sink compound between the module and the aluminum case to facilitate heat transfer from the module to the aluminum floor of the case. It's easy, cheap to do and it also couldn't hurt the longevity of the amplifier.
Scotty
Scotty is absolutely right. If you want the heat sink that is bolted to the Ncore module itself to be improved/upgraded, add heat sink compond to the bottom prior to bolting it to your chassis. Makes for better thermal coupling.
+1
.Though one thing to consider is that while Class D is (when competently done) more efficient at delivering power, it's not necessarily more efficient at idling than an AB amp. Also, my experience with other Class D designs is that they actually get hotter when idling than under load. That may not be true of the NCores, but it's something to consider.
I agree. But I was speaking of Ncore only. My other amp was an SDS 254 which was warmer just sitting there at idle than during play time. Regardless, I trust Mr. Putzeys advice regarding thermal mgmt with his design. Don't want my $1.5k investment to vaporize though...
Anand.
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Hi Guys
Just to give you some re assurance about closed cases. Both Mola-Mola and ourselves at ACOUSTICIMAGERY are using completely closed cases with the NC1200's.
At Munich I held my hand on the Mola-Mola power amps and I would say they were quite warm but not hot. Our own D400M UcD amps have slots top and bottom where the amp module is and I'd say that at idle both cases were about the same.
I think it's the SMPS which generates most of the heat. But, of course, our cases are machined from one piece of billet ally and so the whole case is one big heatsink.
Cheers......John
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...
If I were building one of these I would use heat-sink compound between the module and the aluminum case to facilitate heat transfer from the module to the aluminum floor of the case. It's easy, cheap to do and it also couldn't hurt the longevity of the amplifier.
Scotty
I used heat sink compound for mine just because I always have for DIY power amps and supplies and figured it couldn't hurt. I haven't measured the temps but the small SR cases are just luke warm.
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I also used thermal compound between the amp module and case, I couldn't help myself. :)
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Though one thing to consider is that while Class D is (when competently done) more efficient at delivering power, it's not necessarily more efficient at idling than an AB amp. Also, my experience with other Class D designs is that they actually get hotter when idling than under load. That may not be true of the NCores, but it's something to consider.
I have a pair of Tripath 300w mono blocks and noticed that they due run warmer at idle. I will check the NCores after idling for a while and after a high volume listening session to see if there is a difference.
I'll pop the top and check the heat sinks on the SMPS 600.
Think I'll get some heat sink compound and check the case temp directly under the amp module both before and after compound application.
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I just checked room, case and SMPS heat sink temp. The SMPS heat sink temps were very difficult to read. They were jumping all over. I would say dissipating heat effectively. I could hold my fingers on the small heat sink for 10 sec. or more. Large heat sink, five seconds or more.
Room - 70F
Case directly over large heat sink - 92F
Small heat sink on SMPS - 88-125F
Large heat sink on SMPS - 92-130F
I decided to measure the screw top that held the hottest transistor on each heat sink.
Large - 143F
Small - 134F
Hottest component was large transformer @ 165F.
The shut down temp for overheating on the SMPS is 203F
I'm using a Metris infrared laser thermometer.
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Chris, thanks for the extra testing. After 20hrs the bottom chassis was just Luke warm (that works for me), I also like that I don't need to leave them on all the time like my Simaudio amp after 10-20 mins The Ncore's sound the same to me.
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I also like that I don't need to leave them on all the time like my Simaudio amp after 10-20 mins The Ncore's sound the same to me.
When I had Jason's I didn't notice a big difference between 20 mins and 20 hrs. Once mine are broken in (if they even need much of that) I'll do some comparisons. If there is not enough difference to my ears I'll consider installing a power switch. Just using the nAMPON at the moment.
I'm letting the amps run with the top off of one for a few hours to check SMPS heat sinks with maximum venting.
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Would it not make sense to mount the boards "upside down" (screwed to the top) of a finned casework?
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Would it not make sense to mount the boards "upside down" (screwed to the top) of a finned casework?
Are you talking about the amp or SMPS. The amp is in direct contact with the bottom cover of the case and does not get that hot. I measured about 98-104F on the amp heat sink. Max allowable temp for amp is 194F.
The board of the SMPS comes in contact with the case at the four standoffs only. The hottest areas on the SMPS are the heat sinks and the large transformer. You would have to screw the heat sinks into the case to improve cooling.
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I found the temps to be lower with the top off for 2.5 hours. The laser thermometer was jumping around too much so I used the temp probe on my DMM. Temp on the large heat sink was 123F. Small heat sink was 131F
I put the cover back on and will check later tonight after it warms up again.
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Just checked the temp on large heat sink after top on for 2 hours, 143F. The top covers of both amps were 96.6F, so I believe the amp I measured was back to "normal" operating temp.
Temp increase with top on was 20F. Definitely runs cooler with the top off so I imagine some venting will also decrease internal temp. I don't know how much of a difference this makes long term. The amp with no venting is running well under temperature max levels.
I can imagine reducing the temps a bit could increase longevity, but by the time it fails, Bruno will have a new amp that will surpass this one. :wink:
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Chris, were those temps taken with the amp just idling or during music playback when the amp was under a load.
Scotty
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Chris, were those temps taken with the amp just idling or during music playback when the amp was under a load.
Scotty
Amps were playing at low volume and had been for approx 24 hrs when I first checked. Today still playing at low volume and on for approx 48 hrs when checked.
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Brief update.
I decided to vent the amps just to give the electrolytic caps a chance to live a little longer. I thought about drilling holes but didn't want to, so I raised the top with some aluminum stand offs. Now there is a vent all around the top edge that can be closed anytime I like.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=63521)
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Can you measure the top cover temp again with amp vented?
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Can you measure the top cover temp again with amp vented?
Sure. I measured the top and the large heat sink on the SMPS.
Top is still about 20F warmer than room temp. Heat sink is 10F cooler than it was with the top on, no venting. So the venting has reduced the large heat sink temp by 10F whereas removing the top completely reduced it by 20F.
If anyone is thinking about drilling holes to vent heat, the best area may be directly over the big sink.
By the way the standoffs are .25 inches. If you didn't want to drill but wanted better venting, just increase the length of the standoffs.
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If anyone is thinking about drilling holes to vent heat, the best area may be directly over the big sink.
I would just add - think about drilling intake air holes to create air flow. Maybe on the bottom cover.
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I would just add - think about drilling intake air holes to create air flow. Maybe on the bottom cover.
Good point!
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Bigger heat sinks or aluminum bars/plates on the top of the amp to draw off the excess heat.
Jim
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Bigger heat sinks or aluminum bars/plates on the top of the amp to draw off the excess heat.
Jim
This is a great source for that.
http://heatsinkusa.com/
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Heat sink for the ncore amp in on the bottom of the module so the best you can do is mount it to the case. There are two heat sinks on the smps which can be added to as long as they are kept electronically separate.
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Heat sink for the ncore amp in on the bottom of the module so the best you can do is mount it to the case. There are two heat sinks on the smps which can be added to as long as they are kept electronically separate.
Mount some fanned heat sinks to the sides of the case to wick heat away. Aluminum is a heat magnet and even in this setup, should draw heat away from the electronics.
Jim
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Brief update.
I decided to vent the amps just to give the electrolytic caps a chance to live a little longer. I thought about drilling holes but didn't want to, so I raised the top with some aluminum stand offs. Now there is a vent all around the top edge that can be closed anytime I like.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=63521)
I like that. But JT keeps saying heat is not an issue, even in a closed box, so why then are we still concerned with heat and drilling holes, etc?
Is even 120 degrees going to bother a capacitor designed to be in such a predicament? Certainly they are used in amps that must get a lot hotter. Do you think you will somehow vaporize the electrolytic fluid faster? What is the boiling point of that stuff anyway?
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But JT keeps saying heat is not an issue, even in a closed box, so why then are we still concerned with heat and drilling holes, etc?
I'm just regurgitating what Bruno has said many times already. If he's not worried, I'm definitely not worried.
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At low power the FET temperature is very nearly equal to the temperature of the mounting base.
Capacitor lifetime works as follows: the manufacturer gives a baseline lifetime at a given temperature and under rated load conditions. From that baseline, lifetime doubles for every 10°C reduction in temperature. Rated ripple current is usually taken to contribute 10°C to temperature, so no or very low ripple current constitutes another doubling of lifetime. Running the capacitor at a lower than rated voltage once again multiplies lifetime by a factor that goes up fairly quickly with dropping voltage.
The baseline lifetime of the caps on the NC400 is given as 2000 hours at 105°C. At idle or during normal listening (i.e. low ripple current) and 60°C we can thus multiply lifetime with a factor 2^((105-60)/10+1)=45. Expected lifetime works out as 90000 hours, or just over 10 years of continuous operation. At that point the capacitor will go out of spec, but not fail outright.
There is some irony to temperature and class D. People expect class D to run cool. That would only be true if one substituted a class D power stage for a class A amp and kept the heat sink as it were. Of course it would run stone cold under those conditions. But the point of course is to cash in on the diminished heat output and reduce heatsink capacity until the final temperature is the same.
(Back to hiding. I'm not actively monitoring this forum, but I'd like to take advantage of the occasion to give three cheers to jtwrace for setting up this Circle and organising the listening tour.)
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Thanks, Bruno. Appreciate your time to comment on the subject very much. And I truly appreciate your incredible amplifier design that gets me so much closer to the music!
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Welcome Bruno to AC!
:hyper: :dance: :drums: :rock: :bounce:
Anand.
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Wow, that just happened. :D
So with a closed box, if we listen to the amp constantly, never give it rest, in ten years we might have to check the caps and have a few replaced, if that. Sounds good to me.
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sweet,i don't need no stinking hole :thumb:
lapsan
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Wow, that just happened. :D
So with a closed box, if we listen to the amp constantly, never give it rest, in ten years we might have to check the caps and have a few replaced, if that. Sounds good to me.
If you have decent hearing you will know when a cap goes bad. However, what Bruno said was that after 90K hours caps might go out of spec....so after 10 years there may not be a need to change or service the unit, unless you do hear a change.
Jim
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I like the idea of possibly getting 15 years out of the caps by adding a few strategically placed ventilation holes. I also admit to occasionally being a belt and suspender man.
A Centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion puts 60 degrees C at 140 degrees F.
If we can lower the caps temperature by even 8 to 10 degrees F we could possibly add 50% to the caps life expectancy.
Scotty
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I like the idea of possibly getting 15 years out of the caps by adding a few strategically placed ventilation holes. I also admit to occasionally being a belt and suspender man.
A Centigrade to Fahrenheit conversion puts 60 degrees C at 140 degrees F.
If we can lower the caps temperature by even 8 to 10 degrees F we could possibly add 50% to the caps life expectancy.
Scotty
I like the way you think!
Jim
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Well I did mention it in my thread on the dual mono setup, but here it goes... It is a dual mono so two power supplies in the case and this of course can add substantially more heat with 2 power supplies with each other... You can get a nice burn from the top plates of those power supplies.
Actually the Ncore itself I have no worry about, the NC400 bolted is a heatsink right to the case. But the power supplies get pretty hot. And they do transfer a lot of heat back INTO the NC400 being bolted to the same metal.
My suggestion is use Vented tops at a minimum and they then stay totally cool. Just me but especially when spending this kind of money, and easily making it bulletproof as I had to build it myself anyway, why not?
By the way I used Arctic silver 5, really good pure silver thermal heatsink compound. Its sold right at radioshack too. Cheap to order online, but with shipping you can get it locally from Rat shack just the same. It drops the temp about another 10 degrees. The NC400 stays cold with no issue.
"Further on the power supply.
You can melt cheese directly on that top plate for sure.
I have seen some posters using a "Stacked" Chassis.
This is great accept it seems they put the power supply on the bottom under a plate then put the NC400 on the top.
It defeats the purpose in my mind, they are adding at least 100 degrees to that NC400 heat sink even if the NC400 is disconnected and the power supply is just on.
Reverse it and put the NC400 on the bottom and the Power supply on the top to let the heat rise out of the case is the way to go, and in my opinion I highly suggest VENTED top plates at a minimum for the power supply it really does stay dead cool without transferring all that heat back to the NC400's heatsink in the case with it which is kind of against the whole purpose.
Or I guess you could just go with power supplies in one chassis and the NC400 in the other, I doubt that is necessary just saying."
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106985.msg1096909#msg1096909 (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106985.msg1096909#msg1096909)
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At low power the FET temperature is very nearly equal to the temperature of the mounting base.
Capacitor lifetime works as follows: the manufacturer gives a baseline lifetime at a given temperature and under rated load conditions. From that baseline, lifetime doubles for every 10°C reduction in temperature. Rated ripple current is usually taken to contribute 10°C to temperature, so no or very low ripple current constitutes another doubling of lifetime. Running the capacitor at a lower than rated voltage once again multiplies lifetime by a factor that goes up fairly quickly with dropping voltage.
The baseline lifetime of the caps on the NC400 is given as 2000 hours at 105°C. At idle or during normal listening (i.e. low ripple current) and 60°C we can thus multiply lifetime with a factor 2^((105-60)/10+1)=45. Expected lifetime works out as 90000 hours, or just over 10 years of continuous operation. At that point the capacitor will go out of spec, but not fail outright.
There is some irony to temperature and class D. People expect class D to run cool. That would only be true if one substituted a class D power stage for a class A amp and kept the heat sink as it were. Of course it would run stone cold under those conditions. But the point of course is to cash in on the diminished heat output and reduce heatsink capacity until the final temperature is the same.
Thanks, Bruno. Appreciate your time to comment on the subject very much. And I truly appreciate your incredible amplifier design that gets me so much closer to the music!
Yes! :thumb:
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I just finished assembling mine this week. I had not attached the front or top panels of the chassis, so open air situation. I also used silver thermal compound between amp modules and chassis to improve thermal conductivity to chassis.
After an hour of listening the first night, I put my hand over power supply and amp module to see how hot they were. I was surprised how much heat was coming off the amp module. I touched one of the capacitors with my finger, and It was warm enough that I didn't want to keep my finger there more than a few seconds. I don't have equipment to measure surface temps.
Does this fit with others' experiences?
The next day, I plugged one of the monoblocks into the wall using my Kill-A-Watt meter to determine power requirements. With the ampon muting engaged, the amp was using 13 watts. Turning muting off, but without any playback, it consumes 18 watts. that's for a single monoblock.
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I just finished assembling mine this week. I had not attached the front or top panels of the chassis, so open air situation. I also used silver thermal compound between amp modules and chassis to improve thermal conductivity to chassis.
After an hour of listening the first night, I put my hand over power supply and amp module to see how hot they were. I was surprised how much heat was coming off the amp module. I touched one of the capacitors with my finger, and It was warm enough that I didn't want to keep my finger there more than a few seconds. I don't have equipment to measure surface temps.
Does this fit with others' experiences?
The next day, I plugged one of the monoblocks into the wall using my Kill-A-Watt meter to determine power requirements. With the ampon muting engaged, the amp was using 13 watts. Turning muting off, but without any playback, it consumes 18 watts. that's for a single monoblock.
It's fine. As posted above from Bruno.
At low power the FET temperature is very nearly equal to the temperature of the mounting base.
Capacitor lifetime works as follows: the manufacturer gives a baseline lifetime at a given temperature and under rated load conditions. From that baseline, lifetime doubles for every 10°C reduction in temperature. Rated ripple current is usually taken to contribute 10°C to temperature, so no or very low ripple current constitutes another doubling of lifetime. Running the capacitor at a lower than rated voltage once again multiplies lifetime by a factor that goes up fairly quickly with dropping voltage.
The baseline lifetime of the caps on the NC400 is given as 2000 hours at 105°C. At idle or during normal listening (i.e. low ripple current) and 60°C we can thus multiply lifetime with a factor 2^((105-60)/10+1)=45. Expected lifetime works out as 90000 hours, or just over 10 years of continuous operation. At that point the capacitor will go out of spec, but not fail outright.
There is some irony to temperature and class D. People expect class D to run cool. That would only be true if one substituted a class D power stage for a class A amp and kept the heat sink as it were. Of course it would run stone cold under those conditions. But the point of course is to cash in on the diminished heat output and reduce heatsink capacity until the final temperature is the same.
(Back to hiding. I'm not actively monitoring this forum, but I'd like to take advantage of the occasion to give three cheers to jtwrace for setting up this Circle and organising the listening tour.)
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FAILED POWER SUPPLY! SMPS600
You guys can believe what you wish, however I guess opening my mouth gave me some payback.
ONE of the 2 power supplies failed that I just installed within about 3 days.
I believe it was a weak or faulty relay and probably from being on the heat helped kill it even earlier than it would have failed. Of course 90% of the time something like this happens within 30 days of an electronic being installed.
I have a new power supply already installed, the old one went back to Hypex so in any case I am back with dual mono and some fast customer service.
They do get hot, I don't believe the heat is a good thing, and I don't believe you should think its the best option putting the NC400 in the case without decent cooling and believe it IS getting extra heat kickback from this power supply raising the temp. more than necessary.
Anyway, I have a vented chassis, and I have considerable space keeping the amp reasonably cool. We may never know why this first power supply failed, I just think its worth the extra precautions to not trap too much heat on these power supplies and in turn transferring it back to the NC400 modules.
And no it was not just a fuse that burnt out on this SMPS600 power supply :duh:
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FAILED POWER SUPPLY! SMPS600
You guys can believe what you wish, however I guess opening my mouth gave me some payback.
ONE of the 2 power supplies failed that I just installed within about 3 days.
I believe it was a weak or faulty relay and probably from being on the heat helped kill it even earlier than it would have failed. Of course 90% of the time something like this happens within 30 days of an electronic being installed.
I have a new power supply already installed, the old one went back to Hypex so in any case I am back with dual mono and some fast customer service.
They do get hot, I don't believe the heat is a good thing, and I don't believe you should think its the best option putting the NC400 in the case without decent cooling and believe it is not getting extra heat kickback from this power supply raising the temp. more than necessary.
Anyway, I have a vented chassis, and I have considerable space keeping the amp reasonably cool. We may never know why this first power supply failed, I just think its worth the extra precautions to not trap too much heat on these power supplies and in turn transferring it back to the NC400 modules.
And no it was not just a fuse that burnt out on this SMPS600 power supply :duh:
Let us know what Hypex says regarding the reason for the catastrophic failure, overheating or otherwise.
Anand.
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Honestly, I don't know that they will say anything.
I made an RMA return and the unit is fixed. Beyond that they may not even keep track of it at this point, and it could be I am sure pointed to anything.
However, I will say this, the unit gets pretty hot so point was I feel better with it staying cool not stuffed in an undersized cigar box.
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My UcD 400 case got warm, but not overly hot. How hot are these units getting? Do these run much hotter than the older Hypex amps?
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I don't know they are any hotter than any amp, including hypex products. I do know they put out more than enough heat to not trap them in a completely un-ventilated sealed metal box is what I am saying. It builds up quite a bit of pressured heat in there from what I can tell as your basically creating your own mini sauna if its a sealed box which I have seen many built like that on here, they should be fine with some vents in my opinion.
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I'll let you know when my enclosed sealed ncore monoblocs break down. They've been powered up continuously since 21st April so far
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I'll let you know when my enclosed sealed ncore monoblocs break down. They've been powered up continuously since 21st April so far
I agree. If Bruno who is much smarter then me isn't concerned, then I'm not. :D
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I put these nifty cpu heatsinks on my smps heatsinks because my cases are rather small and I thought it couldn't hurt.... They seem to help....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64010)
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Here are some measurements taken from my quad amp chassis, employing dual UCD 400 for bass, and dual NC 400 for the higher ranges. Cooling holes on lower chassis, open top, user heat sinks for amps. One SMPS per amp pair (total of two SMPS)
Instrument: FLUKE 179 True RMS VM, using Type K thermocouple (TC)
Calibration: Boiling H2O @ 102 C ( 2 C correction required ), room air @ 21.5 C
Method: Amp at idle for 1 hr. Finger press TC bead against surface using a 0.5 mm thick coated fiberglass protective cloth until temp reading stabilizes. Record non-corrected data.
UCD 400
Output inductor: 46.0 C
Main electro-cap: 42.1 C
Blue T-Bar: 42.1 C
User heatsink: 37.7 C
non HS TO-220 devices: 71 C
NC 400
Output inductor: 46.5 C
Electro caps: 38.2 C to 52.7 C ( too hot to touch)
User heat sink: 34.3 C
SMPS 600
Main xfmer: 47.7 C
Small HS 36.0 C
Large HS original: 46.5 C
Large HS w/ user HS added: 38.2 C
BTW, all 4 amps output 190 WRMS into 8 ohms, both channels driven, just before clipping, with 120 vac line voltage
That is: 190W * 4 = 0.760 KW! Yowzer!
Regards, DavidT
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Follow-up to Previous Post (Past post shows temp data w/ cover off, also see this for measurement parameters)
Method:
Amp at idle for 6 hrs with vented cover installed. Cut power. Remove cord. Remove chassis cover. Check power supply rails @< 24 VDC. Press TC bead against surface with finger using a 0.5 mm thick coated fiberglass cloth until temp reading stabilizes. Record non-corrected data. All data taken within 3 minutes of cover removal.
Note:
The coated fine weave fiberglass cloth reduces errors due to the heat sink effect of the finger, as well as protects it from electrical shock and heat burns!
These data are less accurate than the previous data, because I did not wait as long as previously for temp stabilization. This is a trade-off between errors due to surface cooling and errors due to thermocouple time constant.
All temp measurements were done with the power turned off and the power cord removed. Power supply rails below 24VDC.
Room air: 21.6 C
UCD 400 ( most surfaces too hot to touch > 1 sec)
Output inductor: 54 C
Main electro-cap: 51 C
Blue T-Bar: NM
User heatsink: 53 C
Non HS TO-220 devices: 85 C
NC 400 ( most surfaces too hot to touch > 1 sec)
Output inductor: 55 C
Highest temp of 10 electro caps: 61 C
User heat sink: 42 C
SMPS 600 ( most surfaces too hot to touch > 1 sec)
Main xfmer: NM
Small HS: 49 C
Large HS original: NM
Large HS w/ user CPU style HS added: 50 C
My Conclusions:
This is a stunning amount of power capability in a very small and light weight package! Well done!
Surface temperatures appear normal for reliable modern gear to me, although I prefer about 10 C more thermal margin for even more extended reliability.
The user added CPU HS (e.g. designed for horizontal use) on the SMPS600 large HS brings it's temp down to about the temp of the SMPS600 small HS.
If the SMPS600 large HS raises in temp approximately the same as the small HS with the cover installed, then the original large HS would theoretically measure about,
46.5*(49/36) ~= 63 C
The 85 C measurement on the UCD TO220's bothers me, but hey, my various UCD amplifiers have survived 6 summers just fine...
HTH, Regards,
DavidT
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DavidT - Thanks for the info!
Do you have any pics or links of the heat sink you are using on the power supply?
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Hello Bhakti,
I am using two of these CPU heat sinks on the SMPS600 large HS:
AAVID THERMALLOY 9000000958 (special) $1.39 ea. USD
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2150942_-1
DavidT
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Hello Bhakti,
I am using two of these CPU heat sinks on the SMPS600 large HS:
AAVID THERMALLOY 9000000958 (special) $1.39 ea. USD
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2150942_-1
DavidT
Wow, how can you afford those?
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quiet now :D, do not tell Judy, but I raided the kitchen piggy bank... :D(smile)
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I ordered 8 of them as the minimum was 10 bucks anyway... Gonna load up the large plate on the SMPS with them. The left over whatever just put them for another project maybe down the road. Not bad for a slight reduction at only like 15 bucks shipped Ups Ground since they are self adhearing and horizontal mount. Actually the vents on my power suppies are right above so should get decent airflow over these heatsinks too.
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I have this in my music server. Big sucker. Too bad I can't see it. :lol:
(http://www.zerotherm.net/eng/images/img/btf95/b01.jpg)
(http://www.zerotherm.net/eng/images/img/btf95/b03.jpg)
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A number of folks have raised concerns about heat build up. Any opinions on using a laptop cooling pad with the enclosure to absorb heat. Mono price has some on closeout for just a few bucks. The one issue would be if you left the amp on continuously. The cool pads are only good for 8 hours.
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Before reading Bruno's comments, I didn't know what to make of the heat. I can tell you that I did NOT plan for the level of heat when selecting a case. Few of the cases available have any real cooling functions that are common on class A amps, etc. I find it interesting that other Class D amps don't seem to generate the same level of heat, so I wonder if that has something to do with its increased performance? Logic works in the class A/A-B/B amp performance. I guess the Halcro amps generate a fair amount of heat, but use cases to handle the heat they generate?
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I used 3 heatsinks on each power supply that were recommended earlier in this thread with self adheasive and designed to lay horizontally. They fit perfect, they go right on the super hot plates of the SMPS and they cool to such a level you can easily now lay your hand across the entire power supplies with no real heat left over. Very nice for about 8 bucks! The NC400 is fine, it barely warms up even under heavy load.
And dare I say actually the performance seems better, I can crank with no frequency shifts and very consistent smooth sound. I have a case much taller than most here, actually my case is close to double the height most guys used so these heatsinks fit great, and they are air cooled via the vents on the top of my case with Zero issues now. They were running hotter than most amps, now they run much cooler than any other amps I had. Worth just putting a little effort in, I don't like the Cigar box style jam packed anyway, but thats just me. And I did have one SMPS go bad in the first week so they did replace it and if you plan on leaving these amps on 24/7 I suggest sufficient cooling. Of course I did run DUAL mono so they are in one case where others are using them in 2 smaller cases and likely do not get quite as hot.
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Strange. Sounds like some report the SMPS as being the main source of heat, while others have found the amp modules to be hotter. My SMPS don't get nearly as hot as my amp modules, and that's in open air, without chassis top cover installed. I do keep my house at about 80 or 82 degrees during these summer months, but still...
I used silver thermal compound between amp modules and and an all aluminum chassis.
My measurement of power draw is that SMPS draws 13 watts at idle, and amp module another 5 watts when mute is disabled. I would think the SMPS would then be the hotter element. Not sure why not in my case.
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Well keep in mind the NC400 is to a whole chassis normally and your just running on an open plate with no sides which could be worse as thats your heatsinks...
Mine have heatsink sides as well always attached the plate that the NC400 is bolted, the issue with the SMPS is that it just radiates off the top of the plates with nothing bolted to it. And my opinion is that the heat generated off the SMPS is just trapped in the chassis heating the NC400 up even more. But with the SMPS heat sinked all across the top plates, it seems very cool overall now period.
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No, mine have side and rear plates installed as well. No front or top plates last time I checked the heat issue, although now they are completely assembled. The guy who measured with calibrated equipment seemed to have the same situation as me, if I recall correctly. I don't have time right now to look back for that post and double check.
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"Do as I say, not as I do"?
Here is a pic of Hypex NC1200 demo unit...nicely vented. :thumb:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html)
(http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/5.jpg)
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Well venting is a no brainer in my opinion, as well as these are fairly tall cases compared to most I have seen literally some giving no more than a 1/4" or so above the board in airspace. Those are about the height of my dual mono if you see the photos earlier in this thread and they give a good 1.5 to 2" of space and good 360 degree circulation. These are just as good or better because its 2 chassis and full venting from all corners getting really good airflow and has nice height.
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"Do as I say, not as I do"?
Here is a pic of Hypex NC1200 demo unit...nicely vented. :thumb:
Indeed and the SMPS1200 in those is heat sinked to the chassis, so that would help a lot as well. The data sheet shows a large sink that is the full size of the board, would be nice if the SMPS600 used the same design but alas no. :)
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I just wanted to underscore that I'm not really worried about the heat issue, at least in my implementation. I would worry about putting them in really tight chassis, with materials that don't allow heat to escape well, etc, but that's not my situation. Mine are good size, all aluminum, and vented on the top plate.
I'm really just interested in getting a firm grip on what the power and heat parameters really are in the real world. Also I'd like to know if I should make any adjustments of my own to further optimize. Those CPU heatsinks could be really handy, but the SMPS doesn't seem to be the problem child for me that it is for others. Would it make sense for me to apply those heatsinks to the electrolytic caps on the modules? That's where it's hottest right now in my implementation, and where the highest heat seemed to be in the calibrated measurements several posts ago.
Or maybe I don't have my modules coupled properly to the chassis after all? I mean, I think they're pretty firmly physically connected, but maybe there's a slight physical gap? Or maybe that silver thermal compound doesn't work as well as they say, and I actually created more of a barrier to thermal conductivity by using it?
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I did adjust the DC offset on the input and outputs of the NC400 to virtually perfect "Zero", but I doubt this has too much to do with your caps getting hot. Mine were only out of whack by very few millivolts anyway.
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Well, that's true. I haven't checked DC offset yet. Should look into that next.
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"Do as I say, not as I do"?
Here is a pic of Hypex NC1200 demo unit...nicely vented. :thumb:
http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html (http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/1.html)
(http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/ncore/5.jpg)
Now those are nice silver face plates. Would like to add a blue led to mine and would love to be able to engrave or silkscreen the logo - smaller like that.
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Would like to add a blue led to mine
Bill, that's pretty straightforward. You need only an LED, a resistor, some solder, and a drill bit.
The PS comes with a set of wires that connect to the auxiliary supply provided; I think the set has 5 or 6 black wires, and you need only two of those (but the right two!).
Solder the + lead from the PS to one leg of the resistor, then solder the other leg to the + side of the LED. Next, solder the - lead from the PS to the - side of the LED.
You can determine the value of the resistor you need based on the voltage provided by the PS (21v I think?) and that required and sent forward by the LED; there are on-line calculators that make that easy to do once you have the specs from the LED you select.
Then it's just a matter of mounting the LED into the face plate, which is usually just drilling a hole that's sized appropriately and stuffing it in.
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I used 3 heatsinks on each power supply that were recommended earlier in this thread with self adheasive and designed to lay horizontally. They fit perfect, they go right on the super hot plates of the SMPS and they cool to such a level you can easily now lay your hand across the entire power supplies with no real heat left over. Very nice for about 8 bucks! The NC400 is fine, it barely warms up even under heavy load.
And dare I say actually the performance seems better, I can crank with no frequency shifts and very consistent smooth sound. I have a case much taller than most here, actually my case is close to double the height most guys used so these heatsinks fit great, and they are air cooled via the vents on the top of my case with Zero issues now. They were running hotter than most amps, now they run much cooler than any other amps I had. Worth just putting a little effort in, I don't like the Cigar box style jam packed anyway, but thats just me. And I did have one SMPS go bad in the first week so they did replace it and if you plan on leaving these amps on 24/7 I suggest sufficient cooling. Of course I did run DUAL mono so they are in one case where others are using them in 2 smaller cases and likely do not get quite as hot.
I'm considering a similar strategy. Would you mind posting a picture?
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Here’s a picture testing my Ncores (in my garage) after a couple of changes and adding some silver thermal compound for the NC400 and some venting on the top plate for the PS, might add heat sinks later if I need them but I doubt it. Now no more worries for me about heat.
(http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk175/peteg-photos/IMG_0674.jpg)
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I just wanted to underscore that I'm not really worried about the heat issue, at least in my implementation. I would worry about putting them in really tight chassis, with materials that don't allow heat to escape well, etc, but that's not my situation. Mine are good size, all aluminum, and vented on the top plate.
I'm really just interested in getting a firm grip on what the power and heat parameters really are in the real world. Also I'd like to know if I should make any adjustments of my own to further optimize. Those CPU heatsinks could be really handy, but the SMPS doesn't seem to be the problem child for me that it is for others. Would it make sense for me to apply those heatsinks to the electrolytic caps on the modules? That's where it's hottest right now in my implementation, and where the highest heat seemed to be in the calibrated measurements several posts ago.
Or maybe I don't have my modules coupled properly to the chassis after all? I mean, I think they're pretty firmly physically connected, but maybe there's a slight physical gap? Or maybe that silver thermal compound doesn't work as well as they say, and I actually created more of a barrier to thermal conductivity by using it?
I agree. I just wish my preconceived view of class D wasn't so wrong. To think my Pass Amps only ever generated this sort of heat when they were on! I will need to make some adjustments to my case, certainly some venting is in order. My biggest issue is their placement.
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I adjusted the DC offsets last night. They definitely needed it. The output was off by a couple hundred millivolts on each amp, inputs by only around 20.
Unfortunately, the heat didn't seem to change.after the eveningg with everything on, I did find the SMPS plates to be as hot as the modules. The cases were also pretty warm, definitely conducting quite a bit of heat. I'm thinking those CPU heatsinks are definitely in order. I'm also beginning to suspect that part of the issue is how warm I keep things in summertime.
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sorry to bump this thread, i've had my ncores for short of 2 months now, the cases they are in are only 6mm taller then the psu heatsinks internally. i have them bonded to the top lid with thermal pads. my case is also sealed with NO vents. My cases are all aluminum, but do not have heatsink fins for dissipation.
i wanted to see if anyone with the amps for a much longer time then me have experienced any issues yet. I figured since its only been 2 months, i mind as well check in with others, if there are problems then i still have time to rectify it.
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sorry to bump this thread, i've had my ncores for short of 2 months now, the cases they are in are only 6mm taller then the psu heatsinks internally. i have them bonded to the top lid with thermal pads. my case is also sealed with NO vents. My cases are all aluminum, but do not have heatsink fins for dissipation.
i wanted to see if anyone with the amps for a much longer time then me have experienced any issues yet. I figured since its only been 2 months, i mind as well check in with others, if there are problems then i still have time to rectify it.
No issue. Bruno says it's fine.
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No issue. Bruno says it's fine.
Thanks, i read the post by Bruno, but it doesn't hurt to see if anyone might have had failures due to heat. i mean right now my amps are like little heaters, but i just love the compact size of mine, they take up like no space!
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This is either in my Thread or another one, but yes one of my Power supplies failed within a few weeks.
They ran super hot. It was replaced, and I used the CPU fin coolers across the plates and worked perfectly.
My opinion performance in sound was also better with the heat under control. I also used oversized chassis, not by much, but a little oversized and well vented on the bottom and top.
Not saying this failure was completely due to heat, but it can't hurt!
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Once again, I'll say to read this post: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106814.msg1098708#msg1098708
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I think it might be how you build them too. JT built mine, and says the chassis is your heat sink. I have run mine night and day for long, long hours, I never shut them off, and they are never more than slightly warm to the touch (the cases). Clearly these were put together properly, I never worry about heat, and they are sealed.
(JT, btw I think I'm going to attempt to finish them second or third week of Feb, in that style I mentioned.)
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Before reading Bruno's comments, I didn't know what to make of the heat. I can tell you that I did NOT plan for the level of heat when selecting a case. Few of the cases available have any real cooling functions that are common on class A amps, etc. I find it interesting that other Class D amps don't seem to generate the same level of heat, so I wonder if that has something to do with its increased performance? Logic works in the class A/A-B/B amp performance. I guess the Halcro amps generate a fair amount of heat, but use cases to handle the heat they generate?
An update. So I have three amps and three power supplies in an aluminum case that is well ventilated, passively cooled case. Recently, after being left on for a couple days, the center channel has started clipping and you can hear the power supply turning on and off. I think three in one case is just too much. Will be replacing top of case with even more ventilation and adding cooling fins internally, wherever I can! Weird that only the center one clips, as it's the newer of the three, version 6 vs version 1.
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An update. So I have three amps and three power supplies in an aluminum case that is well ventilated, passively cooled case. Recently, after being left on for a couple days, the center channel has started clipping and you can hear the power supply turning on and off. I think three in one case is just too much. Will be replacing top of case with even more ventilation and adding cooling fins internally, wherever I can! Weird that only the center one clips, as it's the newer of the three, version 6 vs version 1.
Are you sure it's temperature related? Once cooled down it's fine?
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Do you have access to a multimeter with a temperature probe? Maybe the one in the middle is running hotter because it gets less ventilation. And maybe it is not temperature related at all.
An update. So I have three amps and three power supplies in an aluminum case that is well ventilated, passively cooled case. Recently, after being left on for a couple days, the center channel has started clipping and you can hear the power supply turning on and off. I think three in one case is just too much. Will be replacing top of case with even more ventilation and adding cooling fins internally, wherever I can! Weird that only the center one clips, as it's the newer of the three, version 6 vs version 1.
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Do you have access to a multimeter with a temperature probe? Maybe the one in the middle is running hotter because it gets less ventilation. And maybe it is not temperature related at all.
I agree - measuring the temp should be the first step. My favourite tool for that is a non-contact IR radiation thermometer, but I also have a 1-wire temperature probe that I can easily insert in boxes - in fact, these days I tend to put a 3.5 mm jack in the back of each box, with a cheap 1-wire sensor wired to it inside the box - makes it really easy to find out the interior temperature if I need to.
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Have purchased IR thermometer and will get back with the results.
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Just be careful with them. I try to stay away from them actually; I find them very unrepeatable. I personally like contact surface thermocouples. If your DMM has a port with that option that is much preferred.
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Just be careful with them. I try to stay away from them actually; I find them very unrepeatable. I personally like contact surface thermocouples. If your DMM has a port with that option that is much preferred.
+1