[TomS]

Where did you buy them?

https://acousticgeometry.com/products/medium-curve-diffusor/

[DaveWin88]

Thank you TomS
Here's a couple photo's of the panels. The build quality is very good. No way we could build one this well diy, not the metal parts and the bass membrane. The membrane has slack in it so it can absorb / stop wave movement. A thousand dollars is a lot of money, but I'm telling you guys, This is every bit of an upgrade if you will to your system. They really really compliment what the Spatials already do so damn well. On a scale of one to ten, this thing is an 11 They do supply all the hardware necessary to hang them on your wall.

[DaveWin88]

In my narrow room I've experimented quite a bit and I've decided on small low bass traps in the front corners and lower front wall with a combination diffusion/absorption in the upper corners and all diffusion on the front wall.
My system is in the basement so looks does not matter so much for me.

I found adding panels at the first reflection point did not change the sound so removed them.  Probably because my speakers are only about one and a half feet from the side walls and since these are open baffle they do not radiate much sound to the side.  Also the AMT tweeters have a waveguide which limits extreme lateral dispersion.

I do have combination absorption/diffusion panels at the second reflection points.

No wrong answer mrotino332. Looks like you have tackled the problem well.

[AllanS]

Thank you TomS
Here's a couple photo's of the panels. The build quality is very good…

The pics certainly help understand pricing.  Thank you.  There are look a likes out there but these things have a lot more going on than a cylindrical surface.  You might spend half as much but get much less in return.

[DaveWin88]

If disappearing walls and vague floaty image is crazy talk then we’re speaking the same language.
 I asked my (incredibly patient) wife to sit and sample a few sound stage placement test tracks yesterday and point to where she was hearing stuff come from. (Native DSD “Audiophile Speaker Set-Up” tracks 58-76)
https://www.nativedsd.com/product/2xhdft1095-audiophile-speaker-setup/.  Reaching in vague directions  she was unable to pin point where voices and test sounds were coming from (ringing bell and clapper).  For the most part vague and floaty describe very well what we both heard in these test tracks and I’ve heard in others.
 My biggest problem was pretty much everything that was supposed to emanate from the right side of the stage barely budged off center.  But even everything that was clearly left of center was not well or consistently located.  The voice, bell, and clapper, though physically located in the same place, emanated from different but indistinct locations within the sound stage.  But even these were inconsistent.  The voice location was vaguest.  The bell and clapper locations were more distinct but very different.  I wouldn’t describe any of this as floaty but I have plenty of other examples where the image literally floats left to right as though the performer is wandering. 
 I’m sure the reasons for all this is a mess of physics, psychoacoustics, and hearing loss but it’s all quite distracting and often times has me wondering if cans is the “better” option. (Steve Guttenberg “What happens when AUDIOPHILES take the ROOM out of the equation?” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eCbJfLSYGg&t=24s

That is so cool that your wife helped and it really can be super helpful having a different pair of ears. Maybe even one that's not so much into audio like we are? can be very telling. Dude I hear you on the image being just somewhere in the middle-ish ish. I watched the Steve Guttenberg video. These panels plus why we even went with open baffle will challenge that all day. AllanS I don't want to beat a dead horse it's only been one day haha. I just dumped 10k into my front end and it really was not much better?  It improved,  and I could hear the potential. I've moved my speakers probably 25 times? trying to improve what I'm hearing now. I was thinking of the easiest way to describe what the AG panels have done. 1-It's almost like the side walls have been removed from your room. 2- The only sound left is whats coming out of your soundstage. 3-It gave a solid foundation of the performers. 4-It tonally sounds right.5-Detail like you have never heard do to blurring, miss information tonally. I'm still in shock. btw please follow The Absolute Sounds YT channel. Tom Martin is hands down the most experienced audio guy out there. Very very helpful for new to seasoned audio heads. 

[DaveWin88]

Well guys, still not running my air for the most part, and not listening to my system much at all. One of the crazy things about our hobby/music passion is that our minds can adapt almost instantly, and it can take a minute to figure out whats even happening (I'm still learning a ton) It's something when we hear a piece of gear that blows us away, and the next time we listen we say "It's pretty decent" Now that I have listened to my system with the side diffusors a few times, and my brain has adjusted, the whole tweeter being tilted up has gotten much worse. I fired it up a couple days ago and was like why the heck is even vinyl sounding brighter. So I went to CD's after a bit and it was basically unlistenable. Then is dawned on me (for a lack of a better way to put it) that most of the upper frequency was coming from the front wall and the ceiling. It's been like this the whole time, but I never heard it sound so pronounced until eliminating the sidewalls. I actually laid down on the floor and listened to the ceiling reflection for a few minutes no bass though......So yeah the moral of the story is that only when we start eliminating problem area's and letting our ears/mind adjust, that we can really understand what the heck is going on. One thing also is that when you have one portion of the frequency tilted up, it can really really push the others further back in the presentation quite major. Man I have been to quick to really judge the M6 and even some of the gear I have purchased (mostly cables) I know people have been on top of this and I would absolutely tell anyone, PLEASE do not judge equipment until you have a proper set up room. Better late than never for myself. I've only been in the hobby a few years and still consider myself a newbie for sure, but have learned a ton at the same time. I did order a small curved diffusor for the front wall maybe ten days ago, so it should be here this week? I'm almost positive that I'll have to deal with the first reflection on the ceiling also. I'm very excited to hear the Spatials when I get this right as I have total faith in them. A long wright up but just want to try to help someone down the road. One quick observation is that the speaker being tilted back, the tweeter is aiming to the ceiling



I have widened the speakers and have moved the subs to the inside to try to get them away from boundaries. I tiled the subs back to try and get some of the bass wave to come my way before doing something else. Tilting the subs back, they remind me of the head crab things in Half Life
 

[AllanS]

PLEASE do not judge equipment until you have a proper set up room.

There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners.  We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement.  When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.

I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires.  Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in.  Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood.  Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.

The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ to measure and understand room effects.  I highly recommend both. 

Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/.  MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools.  Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.

I'd suggest starting with MATT.  Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects.  If you can, record your room for playback comparison.  As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds.  It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role.  Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable.  The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers.  For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.

Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments.  I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget.  That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.

For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments.  And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done.  The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good.  And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.

[Mr. Big]

There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners.  We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement.  When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.

I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires.  Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in.  Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood.  Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.

The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ to measure and understand room effects.  I highly recommend both. 

Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/.  MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools.  Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.

I'd suggest starting with MATT.  Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects.  If you can, record your room for playback comparison.  As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds.  It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role.  Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable.  The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers.  For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.

Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments.  I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget.  That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.

For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments.  And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done.  The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good.  And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.

There are those around here and other forums who constantly pound this message but I'm not so sure we're very good listeners.  We want the shiny new toys and expect profound improvement.  When we don't hear those improvements we lie to ourselves or lean on unreliable auditory memory to pass judgement.

I'm also pretty new to the depths and details about what "good" sound requires.  Exactly how important the room is to what we hear is finally sinking in.  Behind speakers it's probably the second biggest influence on overall sound but the least understood.  Not new and shiny or sexy but big enough, as you suggest, to mask pretty much any improvement we're expecting from the gear.

The past couple of weeks I've been leaning on MATT https://www.acousticsciences.com/musical-articulation-test-tones-matt/ and REW https://www.roomeqwizard.com/ to measure and understand room effects.  I highly recommend both. 

Another highly valued resource is Audio Check https://www.audiocheck.net/.  MATT can be found at Audio Check along with plenty of other helpful auditory room analysis tools.  Native DSD Audiophile Hi-Res System Test and Speaker Set Up are also excellent sources to check your system performance against well documented references.

I'd suggest starting with MATT.  Simply listen to the test (28 - 780 - 28 Hz sweep) through cans for reference and compare to playback through your speakers to hear room effects.  If you can, record your room for playback comparison.  As shown in the attached comparison (listening positions 1 and 2) you can both hear and see how your room responds.  It's pretty amazing and depressing but it seems to lay bare why and how our rooms play such a critical role.  Unlike the unreliable and ill informed A/B ish comparisons we're typically limited to the MATT test results are obvious, repeatable, and easily comparable.  The LP1 resonances were enough to rattle the walls and create some distortion that I feared would damage the speakers.  For reference I had the volume set for the MATT baseline file to play at 85dB peak at LP1 which is 80" from the baffle centers at floor level.

Relative to the cost of the gear, a couple of hundred for a mic (UMIK-1 recommended for REW) and stand and modest donations to Audio Check and REW are easy investments.  I'm not sure where all this is going to lead but I'm not making any gear changes until the room is a good as it can be within my budget.  That may require selling off some gear to pay for more and better treatments.

For anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments.  And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done.  The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good.  And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles.

"anyone just getting started please, please, please, make sure the second line item in your budget is treatments.  And don't blindly throw treatments at the room and call it done.  The treatments I have show measurable improvements in REW but I have a long way to go before the room is good.  And the gear can only be as good as the room so don't expect miracles."

This is so true. I can remove just a few panels or even the corner couch pillows I use in the floor's front corners and the sound can take an easy to hear change and it is not for the good. You want to hear your speakers and their reproduction, not your room as much as your speakers. I don't care about the brand or the cost, spend money on your room as you would spend on new gear, it will do more for your enjoyment of music.

Even several of these located around your speakers and corners would be a so much improvement and they look good also.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/product-category/impression-series/

[DaveWin88]

Well guys I finally got all my panels. The small curved one came in damaged, so they sent me another one. Just got the ceiling panels today. I had a nightmare getting the thing mounted. I did it by myself and of course I screwed it up the first time. I have to get four more drywall anchors after I failed the first time to mount the second one. I've been doing some research on upper frequency's on channels for mixing music and vocals. It's been a huge help and luckily these panels absorb some very problematic area's like 4k. Really 100 on up to 4k if not controlled can ruin the whole thing. I listened with the small curved diffusor and let me tell you, I have NEVER heard piano sound this good and detailed. Still had the shrill from the top end and the thin vocals, but I'm very confident that my system will sound proper? Looks like the weather is starting to cool down and I can finally start breaking this stuff in. I'll fire her up tomorrow when I get the other panel up. btw the panels really start to kick in at 250hz and above, so they preserve the important 100 area.


Could someone in the know educate us on how to orient these photo's please.
Frequency video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq1di2luMcs
 

[DaveWin88]

The range of the ceiling panels.

[AllanS]

Good to see you are making real progress getting your space dialed in.  Looks like you’re going all in. One person ceiling work sounds frustrating. Something like a sheetrock lift would come in handy.
I’m still sorting out what I can afford to do and in what order. 

Thanks for posting the vocal EQ vid.  Good to know what to listen for.

[BobM]

I saw something like these at a show, made by monks and costing as much as a trip to the Himalaya's. So I made them myself from a bunch of different sized dowels from Home Dopey, some wood stain and poly and ... here you go for about $100 or so and some time. Just a random pattern placement screing them into a piece of woon top and bottom. Works well on the wall behind my Apogees.

[DaveWin88]

I saw something like these at a show, made by monks and costing as much as a trip to the Himalaya's. So I made them myself from a bunch of different sized dowels from Home Dopey, some wood stain and poly and ... here you go for about $100 or so and some time. Just a random pattern placement screing them into a piece of woon top and bottom. Works well on the wall behind my Apogees.

Bob have you tried these at the first reflections on the side walls? Great diy project. I'm guessing these are great for scattering the sound? i.e diffusion.

[BobM]

Bob have you tried these at the first reflections on the side walls? Great diy project. I'm guessing these are great for scattering the sound? i.e diffusion.

Yeah, it was a fun project. But I don't need them at first reflection points - not with Apogees. They don't spread like cone speakers.

[DaveWin88]

Good to see you are making real progress getting your space dialed in.  Looks like you’re going all in. One person ceiling work sounds frustrating. Something like a sheetrock lift would come in handy.
I’m still sorting out what I can afford to do and in what order. 

Thanks for posting the vocal EQ vid.  Good to know what to listen for.

Allan a Sheetrock lift or similar would have been a life savor. The first one was the hardest to try and get square to the room. I installed the second panel today and it was a piece of cake now that I could use the first one as a guide. When I fire it up tonight, I'll probably see if I could have done without the front wall diffusion. I'll just have to see how it goes overall. Here is the system I used to mount the panels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ODpeYGvI7U

[DaveWin88]

Yeah, it was a fun project. But I don't need them at first reflection points - not with Apogees. They don't spread like cone speakers.

OH OK. Man I do love ob and planar speakers as you can really get away with side wall placement.

[Mr. Big]

I am updating my room. GIK impression series panels will arrive in a few weeks. I also wanted to update my upper corners tri-corner traps I purchased many years ago from room tune when they were in business. These are used in studios and are much larger so more corner area is treated. I've had my old panel just lying against the walls around my room after painting the walls, and I will not hang anything till my new GIKs arrive. I received these yesterday and hung them this morning. I put on some Jazz that I've been listening to over the past week with all my panels standing on ground level so I had gotten used to the sound. These larger corner panels really, really work as they say, It was hard to believe that the sound would be so positively impacted by just putting these 2 panels in the upper corner walls. Very well made they make other panels also from panels to larger corner hung bass traps. I purchased these at Sweetwater, and they were just great to work with, called me to thank me for my online purchase and ask if I had questions, shipped within 24 hours and sent me my tracking number, and best of all this was the best packing on panels I have ever seen or experienced.

Here is a link to them.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBge--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-beige-2-pack
The Primacoustic Cumulus Broadband Ceiling Corner Trap is a triangular broadband acoustic corner trap that effectively absorbs sound from 125Hz and up. Designed to fit in corners where the walls and ceiling meet, the Cumulus takes advantage of the natural propagation of sound that occurs in all rooms. Sound waves follow the wall and ceiling planes and accumulate in the corners, a well-known hot spot in small recording rooms or theaters.

The Cumulus is amazingly compact. Each side is 24" in length and, when in place, creates a 12" deep air space cavity behind the panel that increases the bass absorption characteristics. Mounting Cumulus traps in a studio will generally yield a significant reduction in the problematic low-mid region while leaving the architectural design of the room virtually intact. Invisible mounting is achieved using spring-tensioned clasps and a single eye-screw. Mounting literally takes minutes and because of the reverse beveled edges, Cumulus traps flush mount 'seamlessly' into the room's esthetics. The 24" triangular Cumulus panel is made from high-density 6lb per cubic foot rigid fiberglass. The same material broadcasters and world-class studios have used for years to control room acoustics. The panel is fully encapsulated within a micromesh and employs resin-hardened edges. These panel treatments combine to ensure the minute glass fibers cannot escape and produce pleasing architecturally straight lines. The 2" thick panel is then covered in an acoustically transparent fabric.

The edges of the Cumulus trap are reversed beveled and form a wedge shape that naturally transitions from the walls and ceilings to create an elegant corner trap. When mounted, the 24" sides create an air cavity behind the panel with a depth of 12 inches. It can be determined, by using quarter wavelength calculations, that the air cavity the Cumulus creates will effectively attenuate frequencies down into the 125Hz region while the panel surface effectively absorbs high frequencies from 400Hz and up. This is what makes the Primacoustic Cumulus a broadband noise absorber.

Once in place, you will immediately notice a tighter more defined bottom end. All small rooms tend to suffer from excessive low-mids and this is exactly where the Cumulus can be most effective. Because the front panel is completely open, it also helps reduce flutter echo and standing waves.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Primacoustic

[DaveWin88]

I am updating my room. GIK impression series panels will arrive in a few weeks. I also wanted to update my upper corners tri-corner traps I purchased many years ago from room tune when they were in business. These are used in studios and are much larger so more corner area is treated. I've had my old panel just lying against the walls around my room after painting the walls, and I will not hang anything till my new GIKs arrive. I received these yesterday and hung them this morning. I put on some Jazz that I've been listening to over the past week with all my panels standing on ground level so I had gotten used to the sound. These larger corner panels really, really work as they say, It was hard to believe that the sound would be so positively impacted by just putting these 2 panels in the upper corner walls. Very well made they make other panels also from panels to larger corner hung bass traps. I purchased these at Sweetwater, and they were just great to work with, called me to thank me for my online purchase and ask if I had questions, shipped within 24 hours and sent me my tracking number, and best of all this was the best packing on panels I have ever seen or experienced.

Here is a link to them.
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriCornerBge--primacoustic-cumulus-tri-corner-bass-trap-beige-2-pack
The Primacoustic Cumulus Broadband Ceiling Corner Trap is a triangular broadband acoustic corner trap that effectively absorbs sound from 125Hz and up. Designed to fit in corners where the walls and ceiling meet, the Cumulus takes advantage of the natural propagation of sound that occurs in all rooms. Sound waves follow the wall and ceiling planes and accumulate in the corners, a well-known hot spot in small recording rooms or theaters.

The Cumulus is amazingly compact. Each side is 24" in length and, when in place, creates a 12" deep air space cavity behind the panel that increases the bass absorption characteristics. Mounting Cumulus traps in a studio will generally yield a significant reduction in the problematic low-mid region while leaving the architectural design of the room virtually intact. Invisible mounting is achieved using spring-tensioned clasps and a single eye-screw. Mounting literally takes minutes and because of the reverse beveled edges, Cumulus traps flush mount 'seamlessly' into the room's esthetics. The 24" triangular Cumulus panel is made from high-density 6lb per cubic foot rigid fiberglass. The same material broadcasters and world-class studios have used for years to control room acoustics. The panel is fully encapsulated within a micromesh and employs resin-hardened edges. These panel treatments combine to ensure the minute glass fibers cannot escape and produce pleasing architecturally straight lines. The 2" thick panel is then covered in an acoustically transparent fabric.

The edges of the Cumulus trap are reversed beveled and form a wedge shape that naturally transitions from the walls and ceilings to create an elegant corner trap. When mounted, the 24" sides create an air cavity behind the panel with a depth of 12 inches. It can be determined, by using quarter wavelength calculations, that the air cavity the Cumulus creates will effectively attenuate frequencies down into the 125Hz region while the panel surface effectively absorbs high frequencies from 400Hz and up. This is what makes the Primacoustic Cumulus a broadband noise absorber.

Once in place, you will immediately notice a tighter more defined bottom end. All small rooms tend to suffer from excessive low-mids and this is exactly where the Cumulus can be most effective. Because the front panel is completely open, it also helps reduce flutter echo and standing waves.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/manufacturer/Primacoustic

I see that Steve Guttenberg uses something similar. Taming those highs are so important especially us M100 guys Lower frequency's do really need that air gap as these have. Mids and highs I guess we can get away with having them flush to the surface. 

[Mr. Big]

I see that Steve Guttenberg uses something similar. Taming those highs are so important especially us M100 guys Lower frequency's do really need that air gap as these have. Mids and highs I guess we can get away with having them flush to the surface.

These cover down to 100Hz! So they are truly a wide band and they work, as well as they should because these and their brand is used in professional studios. They are 2" thick.

[DaveWin88]

Well guys I have both ceiling panels up at the first reflection and it's made a world of difference. Of course my system sounds like it has the whole time, just getting what's coming out of the speakers mostly direct now. The crazy thing about room treatment is that when you don't have any or very little, the room reflections are pretty even, and only when you eliminate the first reflection on the sidewall that the ceiling is pretty much necessary imo. The speakers still have that tad forward highs, but that's just the way they are. I widened them to 7 feet and have the 15 degree tow in. Just going to leave them alone and just start listening to music.