AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: peckjed on 22 Nov 2018, 12:03 am
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Hey everyone. Currently I have a 20w Dennis Had Inspire that utilizes 4 6l6, 6SN7 (or 6SL7) and 5U4 rectifier and a few voltage regulator tubes in a parallel SEP fasion. The rest of my system consists of a Red Wine Audio Isabella preamp/DAC and Red Wine Audio Phono. I recently sold my Omega SAM HO speakers on a quest for some Audio Notes (that I’m still searching for). While I’m at it I was considering switching over to the Audio Note Interstage 300b mono blocks that use a 6SH7 driver and 5U4 rectifierthats parallel triode SE. I’ve always been curious about 300b but not entirely sure about the Sonics. I am essentially looking for something a bit airier and additional top end with that same rich mid range. Do you guys this switching to the 300b would accomplish this?
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I dont know what are your personal taste in your room, but I think you most stick with single ended triode with cheap tubes as EL34, KT88 KT90 as avaliable in the Inspire line which delivery 5/10W.
300B is just a hi priced fairy tale that will give you lots of expenses and short life, you need a 100dB speaker to pair with a small SET amp:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE34I.htm
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Is that his amp which is restricted to just 6L6? I know he designed one for just 6V6 tubes. If it can also run EL34-type tubes then you might try Gold Lion KT77 tubes which do produce more air and high end detail.
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Is that his amp which is restricted to just 6L6? I know he designed one for just 6V6 tubes. If it can also run EL34-type tubes then you might try Gold Lion KT77 tubes which do produce more air and high end detail.
It can definitely use el34’s type tubes. I may give KT77 a shot soon.
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I dont know what are your personal taste in your room, but I think you most stick with single ended triode with cheap tubes as EL34, KT88 KT90 as avaliable in the Inspire line which delivery 5/10W.
300B is just a hi priced fairy tale that will give you lots of expenses and short life, you need a 100dB speaker to pair with a small SET amp:
http://www.decware.com/newsite/SE34I.htm
The 300B amp I was looking at is 18 watts, so I wouldn’t need a terribly sensitive speaker, but good sensitivity would be ideal.
I tried a few decware amps and wasn’t crazy about the sound, unfortunately.
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These?
http://www.ankaudiokits.com/Interstage-Quad-C-Core-300B-Power-Tube-Amplifier.html (http://www.ankaudiokits.com/Interstage-Quad-C-Core-300B-Power-Tube-Amplifier.html)
Quite the task. I would have to take the the cost of re-tubing into consideration but you may not have that limitation. If not then I say go for it!
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These?
http://www.ankaudiokits.com/Interstage-Quad-C-Core-300B-Power-Tube-Amplifier.html (http://www.ankaudiokits.com/Interstage-Quad-C-Core-300B-Power-Tube-Amplifier.html)
Quite the task. I would have to take the the cost of re-tubing into consideration but you may not have that limitation. If not then I say go for it!
The normal versions of those, but yes. Re-tubing shouldn’t be terrible if I’m sticking with JJ. Anything NOS woild be outrageous. But NOS of other power tubes can also get pretty pricey (albeit not quite 300b pricey).
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Normal version?
http://www.ankaudiokits.com/e-shop3/ank-audio-kits-product-range/single-ended-set-300b-amplifiers/interstage-monoblock-pse-300b.html (http://www.ankaudiokits.com/e-shop3/ank-audio-kits-product-range/single-ended-set-300b-amplifiers/interstage-monoblock-pse-300b.html)
I didn't find a 300B monoblock with interstage transformers over on Audio Note UK.
Yeah, NOS would be, I stumbled across a pair of WE engraved base from the late thirties and the price is....
Are you sitting down?
$20,000
Yup, twenty thousand bucks for two tubes! Ha! Not from me. About the best I could muster would be matched pairs of Genelex Golden Lion at a bit over $300 ($600+ for two mono amps). Black Treasures are $100 more.
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This boutique AN PP 300B amp is about the price the Lampizator GM70 SE monoblocks which GM70 tubes cost $21 each and last about 3K hours w/softstart.
http://www.gstube.com/catalog/?key=gm70&submit=Find
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While I’m at it I was considering switching over to the Audio Note Interstage 300b mono blocks that use a 6SH7 driver and 5U4 rectifierthats parallel triode SE. I’ve always been curious about 300b but not entirely sure about the Sonics. I am essentially looking for something a bit airier and additional top end with that same rich mid range. Do you guys this switching to the 300b would accomplish this?
I have the ANK SE 8w Interstage mono blocks and can vouch for their sound quality. If you can do it, single ended will give you the best performance for 300b tubes. Going with parallel or a push pull design reduces a lot of the "airy magic" attributed to 300b's. A good transformer coupled preamp (ANK L3 or L4) with excellent detail retrieval will further enhance what a SET 300b can do. Mine are paired with an ANK L4 and Charney Maestro 100db horns with excellent results.
Chris
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I have the ANK SE 8w Interstage mono blocks and can vouch for their sound quality. If you can do it, single ended will give you the best performance for 300b tubes. Going with parallel or a push pull design reduces a lot of the "airy magic" attributed to 300b's. A good transformer coupled preamp (ANK L3 or L4) with excellent detail retrieval will further enhance what a SET 300b can do. Mine are paired with an ANK L4 and Charney Maestro 100db horns with excellent results.
Chris
Hey Chris any hum or his through your sensitive speakers with ANK?
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I have to put my ear to the driver to hear a very slight hiss.
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Thanks Chris! I like ANK but wonder if hard to build. Thinking it overI have decided to go for 300b set or KT66 set. Any suggestions.I like the Greece 300b mono Tsakiridis.
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Also thinking about Quad classic II KT66 monos. Prefer something no more than $3k USD.
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Thanks Chris! I like ANK but wonder if hard to build. Thinking it overI have decided to go for 300b set or KT66 set. Any suggestions.I like the Greece 300b mono Tsakiridis.
Not difficult made that choice, KT66 are a audiophile tube, very linear, transparent sound and cheap, can be substitute with EL34,6550,6L6,KT77,88,90.
the KT66 is everything the 300B is not.
300B is not even linear, hype.
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I built a pair of the ANK parallel 300B SET interstage monoblocks with C-core transformers, although I made a lot of changes to the design - mostly around the power supplies, and built my own custom chassis (a bit bigger to make room for the additional circuitry I added). I have a fairly comprehensive build thread here - https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ank-300b-interstage-monoblocks.1112018/#post-27958720 (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ank-300b-interstage-monoblocks.1112018/#post-27958720)
The build instructions are quite good and comprehensive. If you are comfortable soldering and with reading instruction manuals, I think the ANK design is relatively straightforward to build.
I don't have a lot of experience with other tube amps, but I have a number of other DIY and commercial amps (including a pair of Pass XA60.8 monoblocks), and the 300B amp is pretty exceptional. My main system uses powered woofers, so I use the 300B amps from 170Hz up. My current speakers are 98db/w sensitivity (GR-Research Line Force), but I was using the amps with 92db/w speakers (GR-Research NX-Otica) and the amps played plenty loud.
I am using Western Electric reissue 300B tubes - not the ones that came with the kit. I used the kit tubes briefly before I bought the WE tubes, and the amp sounded quite good, but the WE tubes are a definite step up - particularly with vocals which are absolutely stunning.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234050)
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If your amp will run 6L6's you might want to try the 6F6. Dennis built an amp for me that uses the 6X6 family of tubes. Having tried them all, the 6F6 is by far the most satisfying for me. They are not hard to find and not ridiculously expensive.
As of yesterday I am using this amp beyond successfully with a pair of Charney Audio Companion speakers with AER BD3 drivers.
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As of yesterday I am using this amp beyond successfully with a pair of Charney Audio Companion speakers with AER BD3 drivers.
Welcome to the club!
I upgraded to the Companion with the Voxativ AF2.6 driver. My room is smallish and the 8” driver would be too big for it.
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I built a pair of the ANK parallel 300B SET interstage monoblocks with C-core transformers, although I made a lot of changes to the design - mostly around the power supplies, and built my own custom chassis (a bit bigger to make room for the additional circuitry I added). I have a fairly comprehensive build thread here - https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ank-300b-interstage-monoblocks.1112018/#post-27958720 (https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ank-300b-interstage-monoblocks.1112018/#post-27958720)
The build instructions are quite good and comprehensive. If you are comfortable soldering and with reading instruction manuals, I think the ANK design is relatively straightforward to build.
I don't have a lot of experience with other tube amps, but I have a number of other DIY and commercial amps (including a pair of Pass XA60.8 monoblocks), and the 300B amp is pretty exceptional. My main system uses powered woofers, so I use the 300B amps from 170Hz up. My current speakers are 98db/w sensitivity (GR-Research Line Force), but I was using the amps with 92db/w speakers (GR-Research NX-Otica) and the amps played plenty loud.
I am using Western Electric reissue 300B tubes - not the ones that came with the kit. I used the kit tubes briefly before I bought the WE tubes, and the amp sounded quite good, but the WE tubes are a definite step up - particularly with vocals which are absolutely stunning.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=234050)
Those mono blocks look nice!
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Not difficult made that choice, KT66 are a audiophile tube, very linear, transparent sound and cheap, can be substitute with EL34,6550,6L6,KT77,88,90.
the KT66 is everything the 300B is not.
300B is not even linear, hype.
That I didn't know Fullrangeman! I thought 300b was most linear tube for audio but limited in power like 2A3 !
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That I didn't know Fullrangeman! I thought 300b was most linear tube for audio but limited in power like 2A3 !
The original 300B was released 1938 for mid-range only (voice) in cinema and telephone where it work best, but currently manufactures may have changed it, EML have various versions.
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Those mono blocks look nice!
Thanks. I think in the right system, 300B SET amps can be an excellent match. With my current (GR Research Line Force) speakers, the high frequencies sound extended with plenty of sparkle but very smooth and non-fatiguing. But I do agree with others that the midrange is where the 300B really excels. In my system, vocals are glorious. Bass performance seems pretty good, but I haven't done extended listening without my separately powered subs. Certainly with the subs, the bass is deep and tight.
Here's a few more pictures of my build.
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_Complete.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp1_rear.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_inside.jpg)
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Thanks. I think in the right system, 300B SET amps can be an excellent match. With my current (GR Research Line Force) speakers, the high frequencies sound extended with plenty of sparkle but very smooth and non-fatiguing. But I do agree with others that the midrange is where the 300B really excels. In my system, vocals are glorious. Bass performance seems pretty good, but I haven't done extended listening without my separately powered subs. Certainly with the subs, the bass is deep and tight.
Here's a few more pictures of my build.
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_Complete.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp1_rear.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_inside.jpg)
If you sold it how much would it go for?
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The original 300B was released 1938 for mid-range only (voice) in cinema and telephone where it work best, but currently manufactures may have changed it, EML have various versions.
Yes, 300b is good for mids. Missing some treble information like for trumpet. Is 845 & 6c33c tube better?
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Thanks. I think in the right system, 300B SET amps can be an excellent match. With my current (GR Research Line Force) speakers, the high frequencies sound extended with plenty of sparkle but very smooth and non-fatiguing. But I do agree with others that the midrange is where the 300B really excels. In my system, vocals are glorious. Bass performance seems pretty good, but I haven't done extended listening without my separately powered subs. Certainly with the subs, the bass is deep and tight.
Here's a few more pictures of my build.
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_Complete.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp1_rear.jpg)
(https://www.velotech.com/images/300B_Amp2_inside.jpg)
Stunning eye candy. I'd love to hear it someday. I may have my own 300b amp next year. 8)
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Yes, 300b is good for mids. Missing some treble information like for trumpet. Is 845 & 6c33c tube better?
The opt are important but I think its better they have bass IMO, 6C33 are linear under 30W dissipation.
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If you sold it how much would it go for?
I started with the ANK C-Core Interstage PSET Monoblock kit since this was my first tube build. Before ordering the kit, I had decided that I wanted to build my own chassis to move all the connections to the rear and provide enough room for some enhancements. ANK gave me a modest discount on the kit because I didn't need the chassis, but I ended up using relatively few parts in the kit (transformers, chokes and a few caps), so I ended up paying probably double what it would have cost to source similar parts elsewhere.
I used Audio Note silver tantalum resistors everywhere, high quality connectors, silver PTFE wiring, etc., and added a lot of other upgrades (TentLabs current regulated DHT filament supplies, DC regulated heater supply for the driver tube, balanced input transformer, soft-start, Maida regulator for the driver stage, speaker output relay with delayed start, etc.
With the WE 300B tubes, I have close to $15K invested for the pair. The custom chassis for the two amps was the most expensive part - more than then 300B tubes. But I don't do DIY to save money. I enjoy the process of designing and building the projects, and in this case, I'm thrilled with the results.
Stunning eye candy. I'd love to hear it someday. I may have my own 300b amp next year. 8)
Thanks. I see from your profile that you live in Oregon (at least part time). If you are in the Portland area, I'd be happy to demo them for you.
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Congratulations Jaytor, I would like to be your neighbor.
Do these AN resistors are Carbon or Metalfilm ?
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Thanks. I see from your profile that you live in Oregon (at least part time). If you are in the Portland area, I'd be happy to demo them for you.
Sending you a PM.
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Congratulations Jaytor, I would like to be your neighbor.
Do these AN resistors are Carbon or Metalfilm ?
The Audio Note resistors use Tantalum film with non-magnetic silver leads. I didn't experiment with other resistor types in this amp, but have experimented with swapping resistors in the preamps I've built. I've compared these with inexpensive metal films, Takman metal and carbon film, and Vishay Z-foils. The Z-foils are the most transparent, but the AN silver tantalums are a close second and sound a touch richer. They are also available in a wider range of values and power handling, so are generally more useful in tube circuits.
They are pretty pricey though, particularly in the 2W size. But I didn't that many resistors in this amp.
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Great info Jaytor, Thanks a lot for your detail ed post, I posted this question on other fórum and have no useful results.
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Hey Fullrangeman,
Are the mids juicy in the 6c33c tube? Also are the mids holographic like El34s.
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Hey Fullrangeman,
Are the mids juicy in the 6c33c tube? Also are the mids holographic like El34s.
It will depend on the OPT quality and type, not sure how many harmonics you wish, for the old-fashioned musical tube sound use a EI transformer, C core transformer will delivery a more neutral sound, other parts as resistors and rectification also will play a rule on the final sound character.
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Thanks again Fullrangeman! I could kick myself when Almarro set 6c33c were around and passed on it!🙁
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On the original question the 6c33 have a warm and musical tone, the traditional sound of tubes.
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On the original question the 6c33 have a warm and musical tone, the traditional sound of tubes.
Nice! That's what I figured! No doubt the Lamm 2.1 SETs monos were legendary!
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300B is not even linear, hype.
The thing about linearity is that it depends on the operating points and load. Have you compared the curves and run the calc? I have, and the 300B is rather competent. Not my personal favourite, but saying it is not linear (at least within its reasonable operating parameters) shows up the limits of your understanding. Sure some tubes are better in one or two areas, but the 300B is a solid all-rounder. If treated well, 10,000 or perhaps even 40,000 hr lifetimes are possible… and although that goes for most quality DHTs, the 300B can achieve that at useable power levels. I would not want to use them in parallel though - should not be needed with moderately efficient speakers. And I’d prefer them run at relatively high voltage/low current (and high load) operating points.
The second-most sterile sounding tube amplifier I’ve heard ran 6c33c tubes… but sure, you can warm up any amp with component selection, if you are willing to throw away some musical expression. Same with EI transformers: if you want to introduce avoidable, albeit pleasing compromises (for some people), use them. I prefer musical expression, flow, authentic tone, texture, and a sense of touch without thickening and/or bass softness. For some music it can work nicely, for other music, not.
We do not share the same opinions. But they are just opinions.
Minor edits for clarity only.
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The thing about linearity is that it depends on the operating points and load. Have you compared the curves and run the calc? I have, and the 300B is rather competent. Not my personal favourite, but saying it is not linear (at least within its reasonable operating parameters) shows up the limits of your understanding. Sure some tubes are better in one or two areas, but the 300B is a solid all-rounder. If treated well, 10,000 or perhaps even 40,000 hr lifetimes are possible… and although that goes for most quality DHTs, the 300B can achieve that useable power levels. I would not want to use them in parallel though - should not be needed with moderately efficient speakers. And I’d prefer them run at relatively high voltage/low current (and high load) operating points.
The most second-most sterile sounding tube amplifier I’ve heard ran 6c33c tubes… but sure, you can warm up any amp with component selection, if you are willing to throw away some musical expression. Same with EI transformers: if you want to introduce avoidable, albeit pleasing compromises (for some people), use them. I prefer musical expression, flow, authentic tone, texture, and a sense of touch without thickening, blurring, and/or bass softness. Listening to amps with EI transformers, IME, always reminds me I’m listening to - for some music it can work okay, for other music, not.
We do not share the same opinions. But they are just opinions.
Big patriotism at any cost, buy american.
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Big patriotism at any cost, buy american.
Are you saying my comments are based on blind patriotism? How did you arrive at that? Your speculation about my motives is not even close. I’m not American. Nor do I have any particular interest in buying American. :duh:
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Are you saying my comments are based on blind patriotism? How did you arrive at that? Your speculation about my motives is not even close. I’m not American. Nor do I have any particular interest in buying American. :duh:
10,000 or perhaps even 40,000 hr
Well, this looks like exactly the WE site speech talk for its new 300B.
There is amps with the 6C33 that have good sound as Almarro, Lamm, Joule-Electra, Ayon etc and others that have bad sound, as the 6C33 is a low tension voltage regulator not a power tube the 30/35W dissipation limit must be respected, above this the problems start to appear.
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10,000 or perhaps even 40,000 hr
Well, this looks like exactly the WE site speech talk for its new 300B.
I have not seen the new WE site. My opinion is based on an older data sheet and a discussion with some engineers and audio friends probably over a decade ago. Running a quality 300B at 300V and circa 55mA, with reasonable care, might approach a 40K hr lifetime. Might. Even with a moderately higher dissipation, 10K hr might be achieved and is quite reasonable, I think.
YMMV.
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This is quite extraordinaire at least, a friend with Dynaco 70 EL34 driving JBL L90 have to put new tubes at each 6/9 months.
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Different tubes and different use cases. I use my 2A3 tube amps for many hours daily (sometimes left on for days), for many years, and have not had to change an output tube (either JJ or EML). The EMLs were not treated kindly in one amp, probably have >5,000 hours on them now, and sound like new. I expect them to last for another decade at least, if I continue to use those amps.
I have been through a few pairs of nice NOS driver tubes though.
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I would not want to use them [300b] in parallel though.
Why? To what other tubes does this also apply?
TIA,
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Four 300B are expensive and are hard pushed in parallel.
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Why? To what other tubes does this also apply?
TIA,
My comments obviously refer to a SE topology, within reasonable power limits - just want to be clear about that.
A single 300B can provide enough power for a decent selection of speakers and listening preferences. Paralleling adds cost and complexity, and according to some, introduces sonic compromises (I don’t have an opinion about that).
If I wanted more power than a particular single tube can provide, I’d use a different single tube. Now, once our power needs pass a certain point, this becomes impractical.
Again, YMMV.
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Yeah I would definitely find a speaker that only requires 8 watts to come alive. Or it has to be active like Daniel Hertz speakers designed by the Mark Levinson.
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I have decided for me I am going to the 300b set route.I may get audio note kit interstage monos. 8 watts. What changed my mind. The availability of Chinese 300bs which sound decent. I can get match pr for $146 usd. Other big triodes generate too much heat and are expensive and I read 6c33c are very hard to get a match pr.
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I read 6c33c are very hard to get a match pr.
Correct. This is solved by using auto-bias or manual bias, I use manual bias. Also 300B cannot use Self Adjusting bias.
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Ok I didn't know thanks! My Cayin 300b integrated uses the toggle switch to match up to centre of the metre to bias
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249300)
does that count?
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My comments obviously refer to a SE topology, within reasonable power limits - just want to be clear about that.
A single 300B can provide enough power for a decent selection of speakers and listening preferences. Paralleling adds cost and complexity, and according to some, introduces sonic compromises (I don’t have an opinion about that).
If I wanted more power than a particular single tube can provide, I’d use a different single tube. Now, once our power needs pass a certain point, this becomes impractical.
Again, YMMV.
Just like Jadis I300 300b in parallel for 10 watts. I'd rather have SET two 300b's for 8 watts. And a cheaper amp for customer.
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Maybe you want order the new Decware 300B $4,200 without tubes, with OPTs so small they are place under side.
https://www.decwareproducts.com/sarah
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Fullrangeman I would like to but they never responded to me on YouTube and also heard they usually have a 2 yr wait! Can you confirm?
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Over 2,000 orders on the Decware wait list, it will be a day or two or 700+. :banghead:
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Unbelievable.
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Over 2,000 orders on the Decware wait list, it will be a day or two or 700+. :banghead:
Sounds like they need to hire more people.
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Sounds like they need to hire more people.
They have, but it's not easy finding help and their most experienced employee retired recently. Last I heard they are running 2 shifts.
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I read 6c33c are very hard to get a match pr.
Correct. This is solved by using auto-bias or manual bias, I use manual bias. Also 300B cannot use Self Adjusting bias.
There seems to be some confusion of terms here... and it is not surprising, because the terms can be misleading! :D The two most common ways of biasing an output tube are cathode bias (aka self-bias, self-adjusting bias) and fixed bias, which is usually adjustable (yes, that is correct) but is non-adjustable in some amps. The 300B can be biased using either cathode or fixed bias.
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Ok thanks for sharing your thoughts! I agree with everyone that Decware need to hire some more hands!😅
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Hi, a friend of mine brought over his 300b SE amp for me to test as he didn't like the way it sounded, I had a look an we hooked up a pair of my Klipsch tower speakers at 98 spl rating. No problem getting good volume out of this amp with these speakers. But the sound was not really great.
Replaced the input tubes with some new 6sl7 EH tubes and this made a big change, they will need burn in time. But as far as 300b amp being able to drive these speakers, no problem getting good volume. I agree you need speakers with a high spl, 90 or better. we did try a pair of Axiom bookshelf speakers at 90 spl and they worked ok too.