[Wayner]

We have a 4.5kw array that was installed about 12 years ago.  I maintain it myself.  Every year I climb up on the roof (asphalt shingle) and wash the panels off.  I wouldn't need to do this but it doesn't rain here from May through October.

My electric bill was $180 -

for all of last year.

As Bob asked, how much was your initial investment? It kind of reminds me of the guy that bragged about how much money he won at the casino......

Hey, I want these technologies to bloom as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to invest in the 8-track tape recorder, if you get my drift (see how I tried to tie audio into the thread).

[thunderbrick]

The bigger question is, how big/small is your house, how efficient and well insulated, how many people live in it, and where is it located?  All of that determines demand, and that the first question to ask.

Dropping solar on an energy-sucking house is not gonna work well.

Tubes or SS?  THAT can make or break a solar system!   

[Scott F.]

I happen to be of the same mindset as Wayner and Nightfall. We (as a nation) have no business subsidizing any given industry just to promote a given product. The Government shouldn't be picking winners or losers. The free market should.


That said, I'm in the industry of selling energy efficient upgrades to (mostly) public entities. Here in the midwest, power is dirt cheap ($.075/kwh blended average for a small commercial user) coupled with our lower insolar values make paybacks on solar impossible without the extremely heavy federal and utility subsidies. Over the years, we've partnered with a few local PV providers on a few jobs but since the incentives have dropped off, fiscally, it is dead issue. I can't make it payback for my owners.


The other major issue I see coming down the the road is; most of these PV providers are offering a "full service" lease where they say they are going to provide periodic maintenance and repairs for the term of the lease (typically 15-20 years). Based on the install base here locally, there is no way on this earth that these companies can survive once the last of the incentives go away. New sales will be non-existent because of our cheap power. In turn, these companies will fold leaving my owners with no one to provide the maintenance as stated in their lease. Then, since crap flows uphill, the lessor (the banks) will be left holding the bag when the owners sue (or stop making payments) because they aren't receiving periodic maintenance per their contract. And just who bails the banks out for all this [potential] bad debt?
Sorta like deja-vu all over again, isn't it?


Speaking of deja-vu. We did this exact same thing back in the late 70s when Carter was in office. I entered this industry right at the tail end of that debacle.


"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"....Santayana

[thunderbrick]

I think subsidies are a little more complicated. 

Everyone wants to wean us from those nasty "foreigners" who have the oil.  Others demand that utilities supply power derived from 10-15-20% renewable.  Nobody wants more nuclear plants in their "backyard."  All of them have valid points.

The local electrical co-op, Ameren, PG&E, all fear massive demand when temps plummet or soar, so they give subsidies for people that invest in less-power hungry HVAC systems that reduce the utilities' need to generate expensive power peak power.  Building new coal power plants is expensive and nobody wants the air pollution.  In theory, that's part of the allure of solar, to reduce demand.  Fair enough.

With advice from Scott F.  I just installed a high-SEER heat pump and have already seen my comfort go up and electric costs go down (if you don't count the $400 monthly loan payment I'll have for the next 5 years).  Tough to swallow in the next 5 years, but a much better long-term investment.  Especially when I retire.

Geothermal is also in the mix.  The university where I work is sinking (literally) millions of dollars into geothermal for almost the whole campus.  The long-term savings will be $1 million+ a year, and we don't have to replace an aging and very expensive power plant.  And we do have solar houses on campus.

BP used to be the biggest producer of solar panels, now they are out of the business AFAIK.  As in the 70's, all kinds of people jump into the market and just as in dot.coms, real estate, etc., there are booms and busts.  Like the wild west, not everyone gets out alive.

Energy-star appliances are part of the effort to reduce demand.  It's a way of reducing projected demand for power plants that nobody wants anyway. 

How many of us have a 40-year-old fridge in the basement?  VERY power hungry for little return.

I think we tend to micro-analyze solar instead of seeing it as part of the solution.  In the train-wreck that is California I think it is quite valid.  Missouri?  Not so much unless you hate people enough to live far away from the power grid.   

And it's not just an economic decision.  Tough to put a price tag on a solar system when you think it's the right thing to do.

Disclaimer:  Long term I plan to put solar THERMAL panels on my roof.  The plumbing is already in the attic.

I stand firmly on the fence on this issue!   

[Wayner]

The bigger question is, how big/small is your house, how efficient and well insulated, how many people live in it, and where is it located?  All of that determines demand, and that the first question to ask.

Dropping solar on an energy-sucking house is not gonna work well.

Tubes or SS?  THAT can make or break a solar system!   

I have a fairly new house with 6" thick walls and 2 feet of insulation in the attic. Insulation is a great avenue to pursue. I would love to have some kind of alternate energy source, but I can't even afford to get my new phono preamps to run on batteries (just kidding). I have just put in a 95.1% energy efficient natural gas furnace and a new A/C unit, so there will be some energy savings there. I also have been replacing some of the lights with LED and or CFLs where it makes sense.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Not so much unless you hate people enough to live far away from the power grid.   

I'll volunteer as I fit your criteria, but it's too expensive to live off the grid. 

[Bizarroterl]

OK, some details.  The house is ~1700 sqft located in San Jose, CA.  Up until a remodel we're just finishing it had the std early 60s insulation in the walls (2x4 fiberglass) and R35 attics.  Windows were crappy single pane.  We're dinks so just 2 people.  We set the thermostat to 68 winter and 75/78 in the summer.  AC & NG heat.  I run a couple servers 24x7.  The array is on the 2nd story roof facing south.

The initial price was $40K and we got ~$20K cash back from the state and ~$3K tax credit from the fed.  I look at it as I bought a $20K car that never depreciates, requires no insurance, gas, upkeep, pays my power bill and I can't drive.  Oh, and this car increases the value of my home.

It is a tie in system.  Excess power is fed back into the grid.  We have no batteries.  The panels feed to inverters that then feed the house and back to the grid.  The inverters aren't near as efficeint as those that are now available.  We pay once a year (Feb) in a true up bill.  So months that we use more than we generate get offset by those where we generate more than we use.  If we generate more than we use for the year we don't get a check back and I doubt we would even get a thank you.  I do pay an additional ~$5/month as a connect charge (included in our gas bill).

For us it is definitely worth it.  Payback was some time this year.  Occasionally I'll read that the power company is trying to raise electric rates and I don't care.  There is a chance that some day they may stop the tie in program and if that happens I'll look into buying batteries and going off grid. 

The remodel we're finishing added a couple hundred sqft and significantly improved insulation in about 1/2 the house.  That with better windows will very likely mean our yearly true up will go to zero.   I may never retire, but if I do I know I'll at least have free power.

Next year I plan on adding solar hot water preheat for our tankless.    Probably have a huge payback period but I don't view it (or the solar) that way.  I view it as well spent discretionary spending.

If you're seriously looking into a solar array the initial sticker should be less that what ours was.  We installed ours before the chinese flooded the market with cheap panels.  I see that a lot of the solar companies are offering leases. IDK if that's a good deal or not.

[rajacat]

Thanks for taking the time to explain how you're making the sun work for you.

[Bob in St. Louis]

I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......

[thunderbrick]

I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......

Short-term solution, Bob.  He'll eventually move out, just about the time you are all bent over from arthritis and can't sweep your own walk.  Or get to the bathroom on your own.

I hear your neighbors area taking up a collection so you can move off-grid, as far away as possible.  Sounds like a win-win!

[Bob in St. Louis]

  Right on brother!

On an interesting side note....the banner at the bottom of the page here is now displaying solar panels. 

[MtnHam]

I had a a 6kw grid tied system installed 4 years ago when my electric bill was $4,000/year. Now it's under $100/year. Even though the cost of the system was much higher then, it still makes sense. With today's system costs, and higher electric rates, the payback period is even shorter, making it a no brainer. I will be dong another system soon on another property, and will probably do it myself, only hiring an electrician to do the final hook-up. This will make the cost about 75% less than before. I can't think of any better place  to invest. A 100% ROI in 3 years is hard to equal in the stock market.

[Don_S]

I've made my son work for me too. It's pretty cool.
I just sit back drinking an adult beverage......

Yea Bob, and we have documented proof of abusive child labor with you and your daughter.  Pretending to be the good father when all the while you are training her to do all the future remodeling and repairs.  You should be ashamed.    Good luck. Awesome idea. 

[Nick77]

Were looking at a 3kw system for our new house build. System cost is approx 10k and about 5k out of pocket after local and federal rebates. We should have payback in as little as 3-5yrs. System will be readily expandable if we decide to add more panels.
I remember researching just a few years ago and system costs were about 20-25k.

[charmerci]

Deleted due to incorrect information.

[Don_S]

Get serious.  Who would want to miss out on Audio Circle?

On the other side of the spectrum ( ), what is absolutely ridiculous is that it is illegal in some areas to live off the grid! Like it is here in Flagstaff. So much for the "independent" west.

[jermmd]

Does this (Costco solar panels) seem like a fair price and how hard/expensive is installation?

Thanks,

Joe M.

[mikeeastman]

That's not a bad price fore that much solar, but I never heard of that brand of panels or inverter and I designed and installed solar system for over 20 yrs. So I would really check them out before buying.






 

[charmerci]

Get serious.  Who would want to miss out on Audio Circle?

mikeeastman (above) lives off the grid and I met him through AC! 

[macrojack]

What's the practicality of installing a small array just to power a DC sound system? Would need to have batteries, I guess, since the grid isn't DC. Any comments about what that might require and how practical it would be?