AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: abd1 on 9 Apr 2013, 06:09 pm
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I received my new WOW1's last week and I thought I'd post some initial impressions. I ordered them in Pau Ferro Rosewood and the finish and construction is the best I've seen in any compact speaker (I'll post pics soon). They are stunning to look at and touch and I want to sleep with them, but since they are speakers let me post about how they sound. So far I've only listened to them for no more than 6-8 hours, and since they are in my family room/kitchen (and I have a 6 year old and 3 year old) I've had little time to do any dedicated listening. I can say that the clarity and detail coming out of them is often stunning. However, so far I'm dissapointed in the lack of bass and punch coming from them. Now, I know I wasn't going to get a speaker that blows me down with bass, and I'm ok with that, but there really is no punch coming from them, and very little bass. I'm not sure if the speakers need to be "broken in" or its my system or room, or just the speakers. I plan on listening to them more the next few days to see if they open up. I've never really believed in speaker break in before, but on one of my new cars I remember thinking the "premium" audio system was awful but after a few weeks it did open up and was definitely playing with more bass and depth. I'm also wondering if it could be another variable. So, here's my set-up. Do you think it could be something other than the speakers?
I'm running them from a Peachtree Nova (85 wpc). I can get them plenty loud, so even though these aren't efficient speakers it seems to be plenty of power. I've thought of buying a used Rotel or Emotiva amp which are both rated at about 120 wpc. Would that make a difference? I'd rather not add any more items as I'm already over budget and am trying to maintain a minimal appearance (which is why I was attracted to the Peachtree).
I mainly stream audio via MOG (320kbps) to an Apple TV which is hooked up to the Peachtree with an optical cable. Could the lack of bass be from the source? Should I consider a dedicated cd player or hook my iphone direct to the Peachtree? What about using a digital coax cable instead of optical?
My stands are pretty basic -- Sanus NF30 (wood, or wood fiber) stands. I have moved one speaker off the stand and put it on top of the component rack (salamander archetype) to see if it made a difference in bass response and it did not. I've never really believed that stands will heavily impact the sound of the speaker, as long as the stands are level and not rocking. My stands do not rock or move when the music is playing. Could using a "beefier" stand improve bass?
My room is horrible for acoustics. Its kitchen/family room. I'm usually listening to music while cooking and cleaning in the kitchen. I can also move a chair and sit in a good listening position in front of the speakers when I just want to listen to music. However the room is about 15 feet wide and 20 feet deep and has glass along 1 wall, granite counters, cabinets on the wall opposite the speakers, and all kinds of hard surfaces and objects. Its not ideal. The speakers seem to have no problem with SPL's and when I turn them up I can hear them throughout my 1900 sq ft house. However, there's no bass. Could the room be sucking up all the bass?
Should I try making any modifications to my listening conditions such as adding an amp, getting new stands, changing my source, try moving the setup to another room, etc? Or should I just let them play and see what happens? Or, is this just what they are and do I need a more substantial speaker? I want to love these speakers because I think they're gorgeous and I'm a big fan of Jim's business model and I want to give them a proper chance. Thoughts?
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My guess is that the room is too large to load the bass or your source has no bass. I would try a couple of things. Borrow a CD player and listen with the speakers close to the back wall. Are both woofers moving? Put your system in a large bedroom. Bass yet? Bring the speakers to a friends house and hook them up. Plan B. Get a nice sub
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I'm 99% sure its not the speakers. I took them to an audio store that has the KEF LS50's and they let me do a side-by-side comparison. The Salks sounded great. The first thing the guy working at the store said was that the Salks had great bass! Everyone who listened preferred the Salk's. The KEFs are great, they maybe had a little wider soundstage but they were a little bright and I thought the sound was a little too forward. I can see why so many people like them, but the Salks were better - I had 3 other customers ask me about them (I got the feeling the store workers were wanting me to leave). Their listening room So, I know its another variable. Here's the dilema... I can't really spend much more. I do have a credit for a major online retailer that sells almost everything for $240. I've thought of using that credit to buy an Emotiva UPA-200 (125 wpc X 2 @ 8ohm). That would cost me $110 out of pocket. Or, I could use it towards a cd player or turntable. However, I really don't want to invest in CD's or vinyl again. I'm trying to minimize the footprint of the system including the media. I could use the credit towards some beefier stands. At the audio store they were using a Marantz cd player, a Bryston amp (120 wpc), a Parasound DAC, and fancy tube preamp that was more than my entire system. They also had some beefy metal stands. I think this is a classic case of great speakers making the rest of the system sound like poo. What to do?
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I am with PMAT on on moving them around in your listening area. Is it possible your placement of the speakers is causing some bass cancellation? Put on some heavy bass music, move around the room and other nearby rooms, change the position of the speakers and see what happens.
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I am with PMAT on on moving them around in your listening area. Is it possible your placement of the speakers is causing some bass cancellation? Put on some heavy bass music, move around the room and other nearby rooms, change the position of the speakers and see what happens.
This seems like a good (and free!) start. I had a room that sucked bass out of the sound until I reconfigured.
Your upstream gear seems perfectly (more than) adequate for good bass. If they had good bass at the dealer, that tells me they are capable of such.
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I'm 99% sure its not the speakers. I took them to an audio store that has the KEF LS50's and they let me do a side-by-side comparison. The Salks sounded great. The first thing the guy working at the store said was that the Salks had great bass! Everyone who listened preferred the Salk's. The KEFs are great, they maybe had a little wider soundstage but they were a little bright and I thought the sound was a little too forward. I can see why so many people like them, but the Salks were better - I had 3 other customers ask me about them (I got the feeling the store workers were wanting me to leave). Their listening room So, I know its another variable. Here's the dilema... I can't really spend much more. I do have a credit for a major online retailer that sells almost everything for $240. I've thought of using that credit to buy an Emotiva UPA-200 (125 wpc X 2 @ 8ohm). That would cost me $110 out of pocket. Or, I could use it towards a cd player or turntable. However, I really don't want to invest in CD's or vinyl again. I'm trying to minimize the footprint of the system including the media. I could use the credit towards some beefier stands. At the audio store they were using a Marantz cd player, a Bryston amp (120 wpc), a Parasound DAC, and fancy tube preamp that was more than my entire system. They also had some beefy metal stands. I think this is a classic case of great speakers making the rest of the system sound like poo. What to do?
Your PeachTree Nova should be plenty good enough to drive the WOW1s, much better than what I am using and the bass is fine. It is on the smooth side vs. very dynamic and impactful, but still very good.
To get back to basics first, since everything was ok at the store:
1) It sounds very much like your speakers may just be wired out of phase. Double and triple check you have them hooked up correctly to your amplifier. Out of phase will kill your bass.
If that doesn't work here are some less likely things to try:
2) Are you sure you don't have any tone controls active or a "bass" knob accidentally turned down? Any kindof EQ being applied by Apple TV?
3) Do you have another source you could try, even if only temprarily? A CD,DVD or BluRay player, even a computer or iPhone if you have the right connectors. Just to see if you get any difference.
4) Where exactly in the room do you have your speakers? Have you tried moving them close to the wall or corner? This will boost the bass quite a bit.
That is about all I can think of to troubleshoot.
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thanks for the advice. their is a couch inbetween the speakers, so they're about 8' apart and about 18" off the wall. I have wood floors and haven't used the spikes for my speaker stands. I'm going to try them tonight. I also have spikes for the plate that the speakers sit on, but I've been reluctant to use them because I don't want to scratch the bottom of the speakers. However, I have heard people claim that using spikes works to decouple the speakers from the stand and floor and might help to add and tighten the bass. I may be tempted to move furniture to get the speakers a little closer together, but the space is kind of limiting and I like the layout that's there. The room at the audio store was hardly ideal. It was like an open loft space and they had some thick fabric draped down about 6' behind the speakers. There's a brick wall along 1 side of the room, open on the other side, and the ceilings were much higher than my home. The room volume was larger and I didn't see a lot of room treatments. Their floor had a thin utility grade carpet, but they said it was wood underneath. They were not using any spikes on the steel stands either on the bottom or on the plate, but the stands were pretty solid and heavy.
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Their listening room So, I know its another variable.
IMO you've answered your own question. Their listening room you enjoyed your speakers. It is your room. More than 50% of what you hear in a residential environment is the room the system is playing in.
The audio shop employees have spent time figuring out the best configuration of the room you listened in.
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thanks for the advice. their is a couch inbetween the speakers, so they're about 8' apart and about 18" off the wall. I have wood floors and haven't used the spikes for my speaker stands. I'm going to try them tonight. I also have spikes for the plate that the speakers sit on, but I've been reluctant to use them because I don't want to scratch the bottom of the speakers. However, I have heard people claim that using spikes works to decouple the speakers from the stand and floor and might help to add and tighten the bass. I may be tempted to move furniture to get the speakers a little closer together, but the space is kind of limiting and I like the layout that's there. The room at the audio store was hardly ideal. It was like an open loft space and they had some thick fabric draped down about 6' behind the speakers. There's a brick wall along 1 side of the room, open on the other side, and the ceilings were much higher than my home. The room volume was larger and I didn't see a lot of room treatments. Their floor had a thin utility grade carpet, but they said it was wood underneath. They were not using any spikes on the steel stands either on the bottom or on the plate, but the stands were pretty solid and heavy.
That's all fine, but if they, and the LP, were placed properly in the the room at the dealer, and that isn't the case in your room, then that would be a much likelier explanation for the difference than any stand, tweak, or treatment would. IMO, or course.
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abd1-
When you described your speakers in the audio store you mentioned more about the impressions of others. Did the speakers meet your expectations with regard to bass? Were you able to listen to the same music that underwhelmed you in your own room? Also, what speakers did you replace how did they sound in the room?
I would agree with others that the little tweaks you mention (spikes, etc.) will not be the answer to missing bass. I've been doing a bit of experimenting with bass lately, and it is truly surprising the extent to which placement and room effects matter. So long as your electronics are doing what they should be, it's all room.
Do you have the ability to measure your response in the room? Maybe a forum members with measuring gear is close by and could lend a hand?
Good luck!
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OK, I just attached the spikes to my speaker stands and it seems to have fixed the problem! The speakers are definitely playing with more authority and bass, and the overall sound really opened up. Either it was the spikes or they just coincidentally "broke in." I don't care either way -- they sound great now!
Here are some pics. The pics of my kitchen were taken with the camera on top of a speaker to show the listening area.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78556)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78557)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78558)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78559)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78560)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=78561)
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@ chargedmr2 -- I don't know, but I added the spike to both the bottom of the stands and to the plates and the difference was immediate and profound. I'm listening to some tracks I listened to yesterday that sounded hollow but now they're certainly alive. I did move the speakers back about 2-3" but other than that I didn't do anything. I had previously checked the wiring so I doubt that was it. Maybe my mind is playing tricks ;) When I turned them back on after adding spikes I went over to make sure the sub was off and it was, that's how profound the difference was.
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Well, I'm happy that things are better! After you get some time spent enjoying good music, and once you get the bug to tweak things a bit more, try removing the spikes and see if the bass becomes weak again. If you can repeat your findings, then at least you can be more confident that it truly wasn't a placebo effect.
Have fun!
Oh...they look beautiful. I've always appreciated that veneer :thumb:
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I might try that, but I hate tinkering around with this stuff. Too time consuming - I just want to experience the music! I am going to move the rack and get the right speaker closer to the couch as I think they're a little too far apart. I think it will help the sound even more, but other than that they're sounding great so I'm not going to do much more for awhile, until I get a dedicated listening room!
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When I turned them back on after adding spikes I went over to make sure the sub was off and it was, that's how profound the difference was.
Wait, you had a sub this whole time? :lol:
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I did, but I've been thinking of moving it into my office with my Aperion 4B's that I replaced with the WOW1's. It's a tiny Energy ESW-M6 that I got for $179 on a black friday special. Its great because I can fit it under a side table, but it doesn't get that deep. Its decent for music though.
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I don't care either way -- they sound great now!
You've got a window behind the left speaker, a couch between the speakers and glass along the left side of your room. Those residential conditions usually bring issues when attempting to better a stereo system.
Congratulations on finding what sounds good to your ears in your room, that is an accomplishment.
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Like I said, the room is horrible for acoustics. I did spend some time tonight flipping the couch around to face the wall the speakers on and moving the speakers closer together. They sound great, and the bass is certainly there, but unfortunately my room is just too small to leave the furniture like this as I'm only sitting about 5-6' from the speakers and its hard to move around the room. It is frustrating knowing the room isn't allowing me to fully enjoy the speakers. I'm looking for ways to move the speakers into another room, and I have a plan to create a media room, but that is years away.
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I bet those 2 inches rearward had more effect than the spikes. I'd go for 2 more. It can be huge but 2 more is 2 more :D
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The WOW1s were originally designed to be right up against a wall sitting on a shelf - not sure if that helps.
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One thing , i dont think that room is small, and with those small woofers aregoing to be dificult to fill the room with bass. With front ported , you will aso no be able to get load from the rear wall. Just my thoughts.
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Isn't bass predominantly omnidirectional?
One thing , i dont think that room is small, and with those small woofers aregoing to be dificult to fill the room with bass. With front ported , you will aso no be able to get load from the rear wall. Just my thoughts.
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Isn't bass predominantly omnidirectional?
Most people will say frequency below 80hz is hard to localized and are omnidirectional. Not sure what you are trying to relate to my post, but sure bass isn't omnidirectional. It is sound wave they must fire from somewhere.
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Omnidirectional means it radiates in all directions from the source which is the speaker. In other words, the low frequencies load off the rear wall from just about any speaker placed near a rear wall. The location of a port on the front or rear baffle has only a minor effect. You will also get the same effect of this type of reinforcement from a sealed speaker. If you place a speaker in a corner, you get an increased reinforcement.
Most people will say frequency below 80hz is hard to localized and are omnidirectional. Not sure what you are trying to relate to my post, but sure bass isn't omnidirectional. It is sound wave they must fire from somewhere.
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Omnidirectional means it radiates in all directions from the source which is the speaker. In other words, the low frequencies load off the rear wall from just about any speaker placed near a rear wall. The location of a port on the front or rear baffle has only a minor effect. You will also get the same effect of this type of reinforcement from a sealed speaker. If you place a speaker in a corner, you get an increased reinforcement.
You will need a sphere speaker to radiate its soundswave in all direction. Bass frequencies comes from the port and from the woofer, they dont radiate from the top panel, side panel or rear panel of the cabinet. There is definetly a misconception being unble to localized low frequency and the association of being omnidirectional. If the location of the port has minor effect, no one would be worry about pulling their speakers of the rear wall of whatever inch or bother to to opt for from ported. Sure any speaker will get a room load, but a rear ported will have greater effect. Just do a simple trick, if you have a sub, just move the direction of the woofer within the same location. You will hear a diferrence.
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Bass frequencies comes from the port If the location of the port has minor effect, no one would be worry about pulling their speakers of the rear wall of whatever inch or bother to to opt for from ported.
This is not correct as I understand it. No musical energy comes from the port.
The port only provides a way to tune the woofer by providing the appropriate amount of backpressure to the woofer. As long as the speaker isn't so close to the wall that the port is blocked (thus changing the backpressure), it doesn't matter if the port is on the front or the back.
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How do they sound now? What are those little gems like when you turn the volume way up?
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This is not correct as I understand it. No musical energy comes from the port.
Contrary to what one might have read, the simple fact to me is that if you put your ear up close to a port you can hear some actual bass content coming out of it.
Steve
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I got to spend some additional time listening to them this weekend. I move them as far back to the wall as I could, within 12", and left the sub off almost all day. I think they sound great, however I also know I'm not maximizing their potential as my room is horrible and I'm not sure the Peachtree has enough oomph. I live about 3 miles from Aperion's office and took home a pair of the Verus Grande bookshelves just to compare. These are larger speakers and they're more efficient (87db vs 83db). I immediately noticed that while the VG's are larger, and nicely constructed, the speakers weigh considerably less than the WOW1's. I would estimate about 3-5lbs per speaker, but I didn't weigh them. This makes we wonder if Aperion engineers their cabinets to save weight since they have free shipping. Not that the cabinet is poorly made, its actually very nice, just that for a speaker its size I expected it to weigh more, but that could also be because I had been used to handling the WOW1's which are heavy for their size. The difference in sensitivity was noticable and the Verus Grande's are very nice speakers, especially for their price. However, the WOW1's revealed a lot more detail and the bass was deeper, but maybe not as loud at higher frequencies, but had more depth to it. The VG tweeter was definitely brighter and became a bit shrill on a couple tracks I listened to. I listened to the Verus Grande's for about an hour, but once I hooked the WOW1's back up I couldn't take them down. Nothing wrong with the VG's though and they played with an ease to them that made me wonder how the WOW1's would sound with more power driving them. My PT Nova is 80 wpc. and as I crank the volume (and since I had the house to myself I took the liberty of doing this) they sound a little constrained. Don't get me wrong, they easily fill the room with sound, but they lose some imaging and detail, and I still don't think I'm getting their full bottom-end. Since I had about $250 in credit on Amazon, I noticed Emotiva selling some amps through amazon and decided to use my credits to buy their UPA200. This amp is rated at 125wpc @8ohm, and since its only costing me $100 out of pocket I can't think of a better deal. I'm curious how the extra power will sound. I'm also going to be setting up a 10x12 listening room this weekend which will be much better suited to listening to music instead of just hearing it. Once I have the amp and set up the room I'll repost with more details.
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I really have no mood in dereailing this post into my someones topic. My original comment was more like having some expectation to smaller woofer in terms of bass performance and roomsize, not to desperage the wow's. I have a pair of beautiful full bafle ST, so im defenetly a fan of Salk.
Whats important is that abd1 in enjoying his wows, i will focus on the midrange detail and imaging as you go by enjoying them.
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I'm setting up a temporary 12X10 listening room tomorrow. I'm wondering how far apart the speakers should be? I'll be seated about 8ft away from the speakers. Is their a standard formula or ratio or should I just trial and error the placement of the speakers? Thanks.
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This is not correct as I understand it. No musical energy comes from the port.
The port only provides a way to tune the woofer by providing the appropriate amount of backpressure to the woofer. As long as the speaker isn't so close to the wall that the port is blocked (thus changing the backpressure), it doesn't matter if the port is on the front or the back.
Then how come you can measure the output from the port (see any Stereophile plots of a bass reflex speaker)? At the port tuning frequency, the woofer hardly moves. Virtually all of the output is coming from the port.
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Then how come you can measure the output from the port (see any Stereophile plots of a bass reflex speaker)? At the port tuning frequency, the woofer hardly moves. Virtually all of the output is coming from the port.
I have done a few test tone from 20hz -250 hz over my ascend sierra, tone up to 250hz came out from the port but of course it wasnt loud like you would hear from the driver, but if if i stuck my ears close enough, sure i could hear the those tones.
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I'm setting up a temporary 12X10 listening room tomorrow. I'm wondering how far apart the speakers should be? I'll be seated about 8ft away from the speakers. Is their a standard formula or ratio or should I just trial and error the placement of the speakers? Thanks.
If you are 8' from the speakers, I would spread them an equal distance to start with. You can then make some minor adjustments from there if needed.
- Jim
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If you are 8' from the speakers, I would spread them an equal distance to start with. You can then make some minor adjustments from there if needed.
- Jim
+1
I found this to work very well in my room (I ended up with them slight wider apart than the distance to my prime LP).