My New Vinyl Adventure--Building a Turntable

ACHiPo · « **Reply #80 on:** 3 Oct 2016, 03:57 am »

Quote from: Halcro on 3 Oct 2016, 03:37 am

Is that TransFi going to swing around a bit?

Probably--this is just a glamour shot to make sure everything fits. I did get the L75 refurbed and dialed in at 33.3 and 45. The tonearms are close, but still need alignment.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #81 on:** 4 Oct 2016, 03:05 am »

I dropped down to 320 wet/dry with mineral spirits, then back up to 500 and 1000. The surface was looking decent (definitely not perfect, as there were still quite a few "shiny" spots), and I decided to give French polish another shot.

Holy cow--I was getting a "ghost" trail and everything. The pore filling definitely made a difference. I used the Camellia oil to lube the rubber and the finish started appearing. It's still not museum quality, but it looks pretty darned nice, and definitely good enough for jazz! You can see some undulations in the surface, but there's also a pretty clear image of the light bulb at a low angle, so it's pretty specular.

Anyway, I'm calling this project done! Gonna let the shellac harden overnight, then bring everything inside for assembly.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #82 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 03:29 am »

IT'S ALIVE!!!!!

Just have the mono tonearm set up and playing for the time being. Still need to tweak VTA as the arm is a tad too high even with two Vibra-Stop mats, but Lester is sounding divine and more importantly (for the moment) there are no strange noises from the turntable or cartridge!

Life is good!

S Clark · « **Reply #83 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 03:54 am »

You did a really nice job on that plinth

. Good to see the Pioneer arm in use and making music.

Now, after all that work, tell us about the sound.

Folsom · « **Reply #84 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 04:28 am »

Yes, can't wait to hear more.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #85 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 04:31 am »

Quote from: S Clark on 5 Oct 2016, 03:54 am

You did a really nice job on that plinth . Good to see the Pioneer arm in use and making music.
Now, after all that work, tell us about the sound.

Scott,
Thanks. Before I get to the sound I just want to say I thought I was building this massive, heavy, vibration absorbing and repelling plinth. And I did. But when I lifted my old Well Tempered Turntable off its perch I realized my 40 lb turntable was light by about 20 lbs. That WTT is one heavy sucker!

Anyway, no epiphanies, but then again after only spinning one LP, and one that I'm not terribly familiar with, I'm not at all disappointed. In fact, I'm delighted there weren't more issues (hums, buzz, etc.) and the fact that Lester's sax came swimmingly through was very nice indeed.

I am looking forward to getting the TransFi tonearm set up, first with the AT 150 MLX MM cartridge, then with the Lyra Kleos.

I'll post more updates as I get them.
AC

Folsom · « **Reply #86 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 04:39 am »

Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?

Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #87 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 05:06 am »

Quote from: Folsom on 5 Oct 2016, 04:39 am

Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?

Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.

Wow that's pretty amazing. I had to cant the WTT arm about 2 degrees due to the dished platter, but the advantage was not antiskating was needed. I use Feickert protractor for alignment of the pivoted arm, and Adjust+ for azimuth and VTA finetuning.

Folsom · « **Reply #88 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 05:44 am »

Azimuth must be measured by the difference in output between the channels.

What you see in that picture gives correct sound. Stock was perfectly parallel, but it was wrong. The center image was impossible and right channel very weak until it was set correctly. The problem is that it's somewhat intense and changes the tracking a little, needing more pressure to prevent skating.

VTA can be set with a microscope that has an angle display, otherwise it's essentially by ear.

The problem is consistency (at all price points) for the tip being inserted into the needle, is not that great.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #89 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 01:20 pm »

Got the Pioneer PA-70 VTA adjusted by eye (tonearm level with the record) and the Miyajima Zero is sounding absolutely splendid with Louis Prima this morning! Bass slam is fantastic, as is tonality of reeds and brass. Drums just sound right, as do vocals. Will need to get the stereo cartridge set up before I can listen to my reference "Kind of Blue" for a more objective comparative. Until then I'm groovin' on my mono records!

Will need to get out my USB microscope and Feickert's Adjust+ in the next few days to dial things in further. I'm not sure how critical alignment is with a mono cartridge?

One of the things I like about the TransFi tonearm is the precision of adjusting all aspects of cartridge alignment, which should allow me to dial in the Lyra Kleos to actually hear an improvement over the Delos (my WTT Reference was forgiving, but also I suspect not the best arm to get the most out of the Kleos).

neobop · « **Reply #90 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 5 Oct 2016, 04:39 am

Are you highly familiar with setting up a cartridge?

Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance. Sometimes what it takes is A LOT. Ideally we'd all have good microscopes to view.. but there are good test discs, I'm eyeballing one on AcousticSounds.

Quote from: Folsom on 5 Oct 2016, 05:44 am

Azimuth must be measured by the difference in output between the channels.

What you see in that picture gives correct sound. Stock was perfectly parallel, but it was wrong. The center image was impossible and right channel very weak until it was set correctly. The problem is that it's somewhat intense and changes the tracking a little, needing more pressure to prevent skating.

VTA can be set with a microscope that has an angle display, otherwise it's essentially by ear.

The problem is consistency (at all price points) for the tip being inserted into the needle, is not that great.

Wow, that's a bizarre photo. Azimuth is not a measure of equal output. It's set to minimize crosstalk - not the same thing. This is done by having the moving system parallel to the record surface. It's commonly thought that the lateral angle of the needle in-groove, is the determining factor. It is not.

It's the movements of the cantilever which trigger the generator. The needle can actually be off slightly (if not precisely set at the factory), for minimum crosstalk. If the needle is off a degree or two, it will still bounce off the groove walls much the same as if perfectly aligned, but if the moving system is skewed like that for equal output, something is definitely wrong and the Analogue Test LP won't be much help.

I suggest putting it back so it looks "normal", with the cart body parallel to the record. Then troubleshoot the system. It could be a wiring problem or something similar.
The protractor and software ACHiPo is using for alignment and azimuth is more advanced than the test record. I can't say exactly what's wrong with the set-up, but I suspect if you switch leads on the cart, you might find out.
Good luck,
neo

Folsom · « **Reply #91 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 05:02 pm »

Crosstalk is determined by measuring the difference in output between each channel. In order to fine tune it, you check the non-playing channel's output. To even be in that ball park your right and left channel need to be close in output. This cannot be true if the tip isn't making proper contact. Once it is you're finding the best position for the least amount of output to the other channel which is a balance because there will be some. The test record has two tracks that are either right or left 1khz.

You're correct to say, "that shouldn't be right" but that is how the tip is inserted into my stylus. It can be seen with the naked eye to be off, if you look close and have the vision in the right light. It WOULD sound better if it didn't need the extreme tilt, because the magnet system would be better aligned with pressure that worked better. However, the photo is indeed correct. It does not take an expert to hear the difference. And you're correct that you don't "balance" left and right channels with Azimuth, but you still have to find the center; and it might be way off if the stylus is like mine.

Here's a video where Michael Fremer talks about setting up a turntable. His suggestion, of course, is to return a cartridge/stylus that has a tip so poorly inserted, but talks plenty about how extreme angles are necessary for correctness in poorly made units.

But, by all means, if you prefer dumpy sound don't adjust to the correct position. Hopefully you won't have as bad of a stylus as I do. But once you get it right, it sure does sound better. BTW when I play a CD I have no right/left issues. Everything is fine except my stylus.

*If my tip was inserted the other direction it would have skated all the time, as it would have only held some pressure to the outside grove.

S Clark · « **Reply #92 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 05:44 pm »

I've actually twisted a cantilever on a Denon mono cartridge to better align the stylus, using a dissecting microscope, forceps, rubber sheeting, and a steady hand... maybe 30 degrees. Not for the faint of heart.

Folsom · « **Reply #93 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 06:01 pm »

, and you have trouble soldering?

One time I bent one, and I tried to fix it. It wasn't a surgical procedure... more a vocal fit of blasphemy.

I went back to take another pic. It may not be as extreme as it looked in first photo. It's still sad quality control.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #94 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 07:34 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 5 Oct 2016, 06:01 pm

, and you have trouble soldering?

One time I bent one, and I tried to fix it. It wasn't a surgical procedure... more a vocal fit of blasphemy.

Sounds like it was a character-building experience! All of my interactions more intimate than cleaning with styli have not been at all positive, so I feel your pain!

My two Lyras are pretty much dead on using the flat Lenco platter. Because the WTT platter is dished, and the record is clamped, the record surface is about 2 degrees from horizontal, thus the cartridge azimuth needs to be about 2 degrees to minimize cross-talk. My adjustments by ear matched pretty closely my adjustments using the Feickert Adjust+ once I received it. It wasn't until I got the Adjust+, however, that I figured out what was going on.

When I started using the Lenco it confirmed my hypothesis that it was the WTT platter that drove the need for such a big azimuthal angle. One other interesting thing was that the Zero, because of its low-slung construction, actually had problems tracking the inner groove on some LPs on the WTT. At first I blamed the records as they were new-to-me, but then I realized that on some records a portion of the cartridge was actually bottoming out on the inner grooves as they are flatter than the outer grooves with the WTT platter. I'm not sure how much it matters on a mono cartridge, but the Zero stylus/cantilever looks spot-on with a magnifier.

neobop · « **Reply #95 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 09:05 pm »

Folsom,
What you said the first time:
"Check out how far my POS cartridge on this table has to be in order to have proper azimuth for L/R balance."

Crosstalk is not L/R balance, although balance is affected, but you got it right the second time. What I said about tips, cantilevers, and moving systems is correct although it tends to pertain more to hand made MCs. Check this out:
http://www.lpgear.com/category/GOLD.html

Evan,
There is no crosstalk with a mono cart. If it looks spot on with magnification, it probably is. You could play around with it searching for highest output, but I wonder if it would be worth the effort.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #96 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 09:20 pm »

Outstanding work on your build! It looks great!

Folsom · « **Reply #97 on:** 5 Oct 2016, 10:13 pm »

Azimuth appears to us as L/R problems until it's very close to correct. Then as you get it fine tuned it is more definition and detail.

I have a cool idea to reduce noise significantly on a Lenco, which I'll probably do on mine. It requires mounting the arms much higher.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #98 on:** 6 Oct 2016, 04:07 am »

Quote from: Grbluen on 5 Oct 2016, 09:20 pm

Outstanding work on your build! It looks great!

Thanks!

Got the TransFi arm aligned and plumbed. I'm listening to a crappy used record with an AT150/ATN100E cartridge. No strange noises! When I have more confidence in the set up (and my ability to use it) I'll pop on the 150 MLX stylus and listen to a few better records.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #99 on:** 6 Oct 2016, 04:19 am »

Ok, so I couldn't wait. Put on a decent copy of Little Feat "Let it Roll" and roll it does!

Still running the 100E stylus, but it sounds pretty darned good. Looking forward to getting on a familiar cartridge with a better stylus!