AudioCircle
Other Stuff => Archived Manufacturer Circles => P.I. audio group => Topic started by: dburna on 21 Dec 2014, 05:20 pm
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I currently have 9 components in my system:
(1) Mac Mini
(1) a-RT Legato USB-to-S/PDIF convertor
(1) Audio G-D DAC 19DSP (with 1704 DAC chip)
(1) Tortuga Audio DIY Passive Pre-amp
(1) NCore NC400 stereo amp
(3) WD hard drives
I looked on this Circle but didn't find any topics covering this question: which component types will typically respond best to clean(er) power? Opinions (or experience) with the specific equipment above is great, but I am also in whether pre-amps/amps/CD players/etc. seem to respond best to the P.I. magic.
Thanks, -dB
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If it helps, everything I have plugged into the UberBUSS gets improved. Digital gear really thrives on clean power, so if I had to say what benefited the most, this would be it. No experience with Class D amps, but I assume they would also, if not even more so than any other type of amp.
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DB,
I'll echo what Paul mentioned. Everything I plug into my UberBUSS benefits. My system is sooo quiet now. I can't say enough good things about it. Eventually, I will buy a second unit (probably the MajikBUSS) to use in a future system in Taiwan.
Michael
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I currently have 9 components in my system:
(1) Mac Mini
(1) a-RT Legato USB-to-S/PDIF convertor
(1) Audio G-D DAC 19DSP (with 1704 DAC chip)
(1) Tortuga Audio DIY Passive Pre-amp
(1) NCore NC400 stereo amp
(3) WD hard drives
I looked on this Circle but didn't find any topics covering this question: which component types will typically respond best to clean(er) power? Opinions (or experience) with the specific equipment above is great, but I am also in whether pre-amps/amps/CD players/etc. seem to respond best to the P.I. magic.
Thanks, -dB
One of THE BIG LIES in audio is this one: "Everything will benefit from the XYZ - it has to be heard to be believed". I wish I could say that about the Uber, but it just ain't so.
Here is what the Uber does in a nutshell. It provides a syenergistic match between incoming AC and transformers attached to the BUSS. The operative word here is "transformers". Ones that are basically just connected to the BUSS without a bunch of series resonant circuits between them - like most SMPS. Linear power supplies are a great mach to the BUSS. Some well designed SMPS likes the Uber, some other SMPS don't What complicates everything is anecdotal evidence from customers whose experiences with some SMPS gear is opposite.
The 2 components I would say may work well, or may not are the Mac Mini and the nCore. My Minis sound best straight into the wall when AC powered. I had a very positive experience with Roger Nordens nCore amp when it was here. Other nCore owners say huh-uh.
Probably jtwrace can answer this question best.
Everything else is a go, even wall warts for the HDD. Put them on one extension and plug them into a single receptacle on the Uber. Keeps their noise way down.
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Everything else is a go, even wall warts for the HDD. Put them on one extension and plug them into a single receptacle on the Uber. Keeps their noise way down.
What do you think of the idea of using a separate series type filter (Furman, Panamax etc) on the Mac Mini, HDDs, wall-warts, etc, and using the Uber on audio components with linear supplies? Or is the isolation between outlets on the Uber good enough for this not to be necessary?
My experience with power conditioning in general is that linear supplies benefit FAR more than switchers do, and the "benefit" you may get from plugging a switcher into a conditioner is to take the noise it dumps back into the line *away* from the other components. I've also found that series type filters that run the current through capacitors and inductors on a PCB choke amplifiers to death, even amps with very modest power draw like a 50 watt Naim NAIT. The so called "high-current" outlets on these filters are complete BS.
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Why don't you plug the other outlets in to the uber? I had great success with plugging hard drives, amps and such in to my buss. Jp
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What do you think of the idea of using a separate series type filter (Furman, Panamax etc) on the Mac Mini, HDDs, wall-warts, etc, and using the Uber on audio components with linear supplies? Or is the isolation between outlets on the Uber good enough for this not to be necessary?
My experience with power conditioning in general is that linear supplies benefit FAR more than switchers do, and the "benefit" you may get from plugging a switcher into a conditioner is to take the noise it dumps back into the line *away* from the other components. I've also found that series type filters that run the current through capacitors and inductors on a PCB choke amplifiers to death, even amps with very modest power draw like a 50 watt Naim NAIT. The so called "high-current" outlets on these filters are complete BS.
I'm a fan of what works. If the budget allows only one conditioner using one receptacle for warts and other cheap power supplies works well. If budget allows using an additional conditioner like the one you mentioned is great if , and this is a big IF, the attenuation slope of the filter is steep enough and has values applicable for audio use. Many of these 'conditioners' don't provide useful attenuation lower than 100kHz. If they are first order filters they could only be down 6-9dB which isn't much help with wall warts with a switching frequency of 200kHz. Even second order filters provide little attenuation at 200kHz. Remember, most of the smaller "line conditioners" use crappy ceramic caps to tame the noise from the MOVs in them.
I prefer to use smaller surplus isolation transformers like old Stancors for taming HDD SMPS. They have very low bandwidth and that is exactly what is required. The newer Topaz isoTX are good ones, too and can be found on eBay for very little $$$.
I am not a fan of CorCom filtered power inlets or modules. Too many lower cost "power conditioners" use them or an adaptation of them - a recipe for decreased dynamics like you alluded to.
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I paid an electrician to run a separate dedicated power line to the wall outlet that my rack gets plugged into .
Upgraded the duplex outlet .
Then added a power conditioner
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Oh YES Dave the NCore sounds great on the UBUSS, how about an AppleTv and/or Airport Express ?
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I use the Uber for my main video/stereo equipment. (Pre Amp, Amp, CD, Tuner, TV, DVD) I use a Mini to supply my Golden Ear Tritons (built in sub amps) and Laptop (for internet streaming). That combination works well for the intended devices. I also have a dedicated power supply to my listening room with surge protection in the main panel.
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Oh YES Dave the NCore sounds great on the UBUSS, how about an AppleTv and/or Airport Express ?
I simply don't know about the Apple TV or Airport. I don't have an Internet connection to my system.
Someone here has to know...
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Here is what the Uber does in a nutshell. It provides a syenergistic match between incoming AC and transformers attached to the BUSS. The operative word here is "transformers".
It sounds like the Uber would be a natural fit for a BPT ultra isolation transformer then. Has anyone here tried that combination?
Here's what I'm thinking.....
1. plug the Uber into the wall
2. plug the BPT isolation transformer into the Uber
3. plug all of my audio components (with linear power supplies) into the BPT.
Thoughts?
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It sounds like the Uber would be a natural fit for a BPT ultra isolation transformer then. Has anyone here tried that combination?
Here's what I'm thinking.....
1. plug the Uber into the wall
2. plug the BPT isolation transformer into the Uber
3. plug all of my audio components (with linear power supplies) into the BPT.
Thoughts?
Kinda. For a while I ran a 2.5KVA Topaz Ultra Isolation Transformer plugged into an Uber. It sounded very good. I found that the system was much more dynamic and as quiet using only the Uber or with the power amps plugged into the Uber and front end plugged into the Topaz that was then plugged into the Uber.
I still have the Topaz. I guess I should sell it.
What power amp(s) are you using?
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My power amps are Audio Note Quests. They are 8 watt/ch single ended triode amps and each one draws approximately 100 watts from the wall with or without music playing. They don't appear to tax my isolation transformer in current draw because the BPT is rated for 15 amps (1800W) and the dedicated circuit is also 15 amps. They sound better to me when plugged into the transformer than plugged directly into the wall. Dynamics seem unaffected either way, just much quieter coming from the transformer.
Was thinking an uber might take it a step further.
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My power amps are Audio Note Quests. They are 8 watt/ch single ended triode amps and each one draws approximately 100 watts from the wall with or without music playing. They don't appear to tax my isolation transformer in current draw because the BPT is rated for 15 amps (1800W) and the dedicated circuit is also 15 amps. They sound better to me when plugged into the transformer than plugged directly into the wall. Dynamics seem unaffected either way, just much quieter coming from the transformer.
Was thinking an uber might take it a step further.
I would try it both ways because quiet is good. The system I was referring to were Cary CAD572SE Mk II mono blocks and dynamics were better just with the Uber. Dynamics come in several flavors: micro as well as macro. It was a combo of the two for me. Then again, their current draw was about 220W or twice yours.
Basically this is how I view audio - there are no sacred cows. Once I figured out years ago that "conventional wisdom" was mostly not wise I decided to TRY everything I could. I try every possible configuration. "Right" is what sounds best.
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I don't have a great understanding of this stuff and am wondering if the amp in the link below would benefit from the UberBUSS? It has class D modules, but uses a large toroid in it's power amp section. Thoughts?
I picked one up at a significant discount off retail and am in the process of breaking it in. Thanks.
Mike
http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/amplifiers/ia-400 (http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/amplifiers/ia-400)
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I would try it both ways because quiet is good. The system I was referring to were Cary CAD572SE Mk II mono blocks and dynamics were better just with the Uber. Dynamics come in several flavors: micro as well as macro. It was a combo of the two for me. Then again, their current draw was about 220W or twice yours.
Basically this is how I view audio - there are no sacred cows. Once I figured out years ago that "conventional wisdom" was mostly not wise I decided to TRY everything I could. I try every possible configuration. "Right" is what sounds best.
Based upon my experience with UBERs & SETs, my mono blocks always sounded better, with better dynamics using the UberBUSS. Also, I noticed a slight increase in gain, a good thing IMHO with SET amps. Dave E. said it was the Power Factor correction circuity that assisted in this phenomenon.
Definitely any transformer based gear will benefit from the "Cleansing Power of the Uber"... Dave - I think I just coined a "new trademark for you!!! LOL! :lol:
My $0.02,
Pete
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I don't have a great understanding of this stuff and am wondering if the amp in the link below would benefit from the UberBUSS? It has class D modules, but uses a large toroid in it's power amp section. Thoughts?
I picked one up at a significant discount off retail and am in the process of breaking it in. Thanks.
Mike
http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/amplifiers/ia-400 (http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/amplifiers/ia-400)
Should work great. Mike :thumb:
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So I have one follow up question to all the info. generously offered by the posters: would anyone in Chicagoland be willing to lend me an Uber (or other PI Audio Buss) for use in my own system for a short period of time, say a weekend? Though I wish it was otherwise, I'm not in a position to purchase anything at present, but it would be great to know if I should be saving for this as my next step.....or working to upgrade my DAC. I don't want to trouble Dave -- who is a great guy -- because any purchase I make is likely to be a ways off.
Thanks in advance, -dB
P.S. I always take great care of equipment.
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Dave:
Cool - thanks for your feedback. Will consider options as break-in goes on.
Mike
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Does anyone have any experience with OTLs like AtmaSpheres using an UberBuss? I have Richard Greys that don't seem to do anything for my M60 power amps, although they seem to help the front end. Just wondering if an UberBuss would help?
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Does anyone have any experience with OTLs like AtmaSpheres using an UberBuss? I have Richard Greys that don't seem to do anything for my M60 power amps, although they seem to help the front end. Just wondering if an UberBuss would help?
The Uber seems to working with everything. However, my M-60's just didn't work for me no matter what I did with them. :evil:
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Definitely any transformer based gear will benefit from the "Cleansing Power of the Uber"... Dave - I think I just coined a "new trademark for you!!! LOL! :lol:
My $0.02,
Pete
I always used "Power in this room has been scrubbed Uber clean", but I like yours mo' bettah! :thumb:
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The Uber seems to working with everything. However, my M-60's just didn't work for me no matter what I did with them. :evil:
My M-60s work great for me. Ralph Karsten suggested they respond to dedicated 20A power (check), good power cords, but did not recommend any conditioner other than something like this:
Elgar 1 kW line conditioner (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elgar-Series-6000B-1-kW-AC-line-conditioner-used-works-/251373465654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8706b036)
Which needs to be remotely installed due to the cooling fan noise, and burns quite a bit of electricity even when not in use, so I'd want to rig up some sort of remote switch for it. I'd prefer an easier solution that would work in-room like the UberBuss.
I can't tell a difference between with/without aftermarket cords or the RGPC Powerstations. The good news it the amps sound sweet regardless of how they get their power. :green:
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My M-60s work great for me. Ralph Karsten suggested they respond to dedicated 20A power (check), good power cords, but did not recommend any conditioner other than something like this:
Elgar 1 kW line conditioner (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elgar-Series-6000B-1-kW-AC-line-conditioner-used-works-/251373465654?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a8706b036)
Which needs to be remotely installed due to the cooling fan noise, and burns quite a bit of electricity even when not in use, so I'd want to rig up some sort of remote switch for it. I'd prefer an easier solution that would work in-room like the UberBuss.
I can't tell a difference between with/without aftermarket cords or the RGPC Powerstations. The good news it the amps sound sweet regardless of how they get their power. :green:
Yes, those 6006B's are massive and noisy. Must be installed remotely. Not sure I'd go through the hassle. If you're happy with how they sound why not just leave them alone or at least try an Uber.
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I use two Ubers off one decicated outlet to feed the amps [1] and the preamp,BSG QOL TT, and CDP the other. At the shows we use three. One for digital only is added.
Recently we used a minibuss for the CDP into the Uber. In a nutshell now our way to go. Try it.
charles
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So Charles, the conditioning of the Uber is in series, or in line then, right? If so, then I guess one for each component would be the ultimate solution. You would only need a single outlet on the back of each Uber or buss or whatever it is. If it were parallel conditioning you could just plug one (or two or three) of the devices into to an unused outlet and you wouldn't need any outlets on the actual Uber (or buss or whatever it is.)
Just trying to understand the best way to use all of this stuff. Hope that is OK.
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So Charles, the conditioning of the Uber is in series, or in line then, right? If so, then I guess one for each component would be the ultimate solution. You would only need a single outlet on the back of each Uber or buss or whatever it is. If it were parallel conditioning you could just plug one (or two or three) of the devices into to an unused outlet and you wouldn't need any outlets on the actual Uber (or buss or whatever it is.)
Just trying to understand the best way to use all of this stuff. Hope that is OK.
Conditioning in the BUSS Series is all parallel. There are no series components, only connectors and wire. This has been stated numerous times in the past. The series resistance is <.003 ohm and inductance is <.003mH. Using additional bUSSes gives better isolation due to loop differences in the individual runs as well as being able to fine tune the presentation by using different power cables on each of the reproductive regimens.
If someone wants an Uber for every piece of gear I will try to tell them it is unneeded, but bow to their desires. The customer is... the customer.
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Now I'm wondering if I should daisy chain them instead. :scratch:
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Now I'm wondering if I should daisy chain them instead. :scratch:
Try it, but remember too much is not necessarily better. The MiniBUSS is a high quality extension with HF suppression, no PFC.
Once again, every system is different. We don't have the same: grid; equipment; cabling; tastes. Trying every possible combination is the empiracle road to what works in THAT system.
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Try it, but remember too much is not necessarily better. The MiniBUSS is a high quality extension with HF suppression, no PFC.
Once again, every system is different. We don't have the same: grid; equipment; cabling; tastes. Trying every possible combination is the empiracle road to what works in THAT system.
I don't have a Mini though. Only Uber.
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I don't have a Mini though. Only Uber.
I know. That info was for clarity of Rollo's post.
We can work on that for you :lol:
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We can work on that for you :lol:
Do I need one?
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I know. That info was for clarity of Rollo's post.
We can work on that for you :lol:
All I know is the system is more dynamic with a basically a non existent noise floor. One we decided to remove the Uber feding the digital source for kicks and giggles. To our surprise the sound was more open and less upfront in its presentation. All the analog gear was uber dubered. Separating the class "D" hybrid amps with its own Uber increased dynamics as well. Go figure. Why ? No clue however that is what we heard.
We tried this with three systems in NYC. Same results. All systems had a single dedicated line for each Uber used. Them we tried the Mini for digital and were taken back as to the results. Then we plugged mini into another Uber and the jury was in. Very affective combo.
All I'm saying is try it. We never tried daisey chaining. Please try taking the digital off the Uber first with all else connected to Uber. Then try digital with Mini, then Mimi plugged into Uber. Let us know.
charles