AudioCircle
Music and Media => The Jazz Circle => Topic started by: LesterSleepsIn on 7 Jun 2018, 11:27 pm
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/07/arts/music/john-coltrane-lost-album-both-directions-at-once.html?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share
“Both Directions at Once: The Lost Album” was cut by the saxophonist’s classic quartet two years before “A Love Supreme.” Then it was stashed away.
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Good news, this one took forever.
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That should be exciting. Vinyl too. :green:
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Sweet! Thanks for posting! :thumb:
Edit: Pre-ordered the Deluxe version (2-CDs) from Amazon. :eyebrows:
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The good news: A lost Coltrane album is about to be released.
More good news: 'Untitled original 11383' is out now as a single and you should be able to find it on all the streaming sites.
Still more good news: It's really good music.
Not-as-good news: According to one article, the discovered tape was a 1/4" reel (speed not specified, 7-1/2 ips is a safe bet), which means that it's not an original studio master or even safety copy, either of which would have been on 1/2" tape at 15 or 30 ips. That means it's at least a 3rd gen copy. It's listenable (I listened on Tidal 'Hi Fi' lossless) but the SQ is not quite on the level of his other releases done from earlier generation masters, despite the fact that they seem to have been able to do some 'cleanup' (tape hiss is not obtrusive). It shows up most as rather flat dynamics. It's also mono. Oh well, you can't have everything. Still a major 'find' for the 'Trane lover. If this track is any indication, you'll love it as long as your SQ expectations aren't unrealistic.
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I have never knew a big label as RCA or CBS rec in 15 or 30ips, they all used 7.5ips at max, Sheffield used 30ips, Proprius from Sweden used 15ips as they informed in the albums.
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According to Wikipedia, 7-1/2ips was the slowest commonly used speed for half-inch pro recorders. (Quarter-inch, 7-1/2ips was a consumer format.) Majors recording on half-inch or large tape width and 10-1/2" reels would have used 15ips AFAIK, especially in the pre-NR era, judging by articles I have read by recording engineers. I welcome anybody who has actual experience in the field correcting this if in error.
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Maybe Wiki are referring to audio brands as Revox, Studer, Telefunken, Tascan, but RCA was a giant electronic industry that happen to own a music division and plenty of rec studios, so they were able to made his own audio equipment inclusive recorders to various tape speeds.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181398)
Ummm... WTF does RCA have to do with a Coltrane release on Impulse? Are you aware of some RCA involvement that no one else is?
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Downbeat had a good article too, with more 'background' than the NYT article:
http://downbeat.com/news/detail/coltranes-lost-studio-album-found
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Until 2005 I saw the State TV of my state recording famous artists in mono :duh:
A few years later I discovered that the mike technician of this TV station was the ex-doorkeeper of the station building that was promoted to audio enginering...
That black guy was a great doorkeeper he stand 1.90M and over 100kg.
This is how things works in pro-audio, for this pro-audio guys hate audiophiles;
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Until 2005 I saw the State TV of my state recording famous artists in mono :duh:
A few years later I discovered that the mike technician of this TV station was the ex-doorkeeper of the station building that was promoted to audio enginering...
That black guy was a great doorkeeper he stand 1.90M and over 100kg.
This is how things works in pro-audio, for this pro-audio guys hate audiophiles;
What does the “doorkeepers” colour have to do with anything ?
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What does any of that have to do with anything? :scratch:
At any rate, I contacted Mark Waldrep with the tape speed question. For those who don't know who he is, Mr. Waldrep is a well-known recording engineer whose 40+-year career has included projects involving the Allman Brothers, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, and Paul Rodgers of Bad Company among others. He holds a PhD in audio engineering and has taught the subject in the California university system for years in addition to operating his own recording studio and being an author and lecturer on audio topics. Here's his take on the likely specs of the lost original studio masters:
"The studio machines back in the 1960s would have been 7.5 or 15 ips machines. Most masters were made at 15 ips. Consumer copies were made at 7.5. An important project like John Coltrane would have pretty much guaranteed the higher speed."
I don't know what the doorkeeper at FRM's local TV station would have thought about this question, but for now I'm favoring Waldrep's guess.
Since the album will be available to stream, I doubt I'll purchase a hard copy given the so-so SQ. But having this material available even in mediocre SQ is better than not having it at all.
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Nice to know it, I have two Proprius church organ sacds allegedly 15ips and both have tape his in my FR driver.
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It was recorded at Rudy's on Ampex 300 which was 1/4", 7.5 or 15 ips.
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Nice to know it, I have two Proprius church organ sacds allegedly 15ips and both have tape his in my FR driver.
Even 15ips not completely immune from hiss, especially in pre-NR days. All it takes is a slightly dirty or improperly demagnetized head etc. Or that particular release may have been cut from a later generation tape or something. Probably more of an issue with classical material which has actual quiet passages. Original 'Abraxas' had very audible tape hiss; I've had some noisy albums. I've noticed that a lot of jazz tunes from that era tend to end kind of abruptly, without any kind of fadeout, and I have always suspected this was why. The technicalities of the medium changed the way the music was played.
Sad to read in the Downbeat article that the original tape was probably just pitched in a dumpster because some beancounter at ABC was trying to cut the storage bill...
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It was recorded at Rudy's on Ampex 300 which was 1/4", 7.5 or 15 ips.
I googled the Ampex 300 and found that it was a mono tape machine introduced in 1949 (I found no reference to a stereo version). Wasn't Trane being recorded in stereo by then, despite the fact that many albums were released in both formats?
Had a claimed FR of 50-15K +/- 2dB at 15ips. Only 7.5K at 7.5ips. Hence the 15ips for masters. Presumably the 7.5ips version Coltrane took home would have had similar specs at the high end, and judging by the one track released so far, that sounds about right.
I did find this one picture of a machine that is supposedly a 300 but with two meters; the reels look like 1/2" though (remember, these are 10-1/2" reels)...
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=181480)
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Here's another review (https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-front-row/both-directions-at-once-reviewed-the-thrillsand-limitsof-a-rediscovered-john-coltrane-recording) that gives some good context to how the material on this release relates to Coltrane's other work of that era.
McCoy Tyner is the last person 'in the room' still alive but I have seen no sign of any interviews, which makes me wonder if he has health problems. I hope not.
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McCoy Tyner is the last person 'in the room' still alive but I have seen no sign of any interviews, which makes me wonder if he has health problems. I hope not.
(https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-front-row/both-directions-at-once-reviewed-the-thrillsand-limitsof-a-rediscovered-john-coltrane-recording)
He has a full year of touring planned with the next stop at the Blue Note/NYC at the end of the month.
He's something else to see, especially solo. I've had the pleasure several times but the most memorable was with the then young lion Azar Lawrence. Outstanding!
Can't wait to get the new recording, now on order.
Cheers, Lester
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It could be interesting to know if it was recorded in Stereo.
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My copy came today-the double album with all takes. The reference tapes this session was mastered from are in MONO, hence all the music is in MONO. The sound is good and the performances, after all these years ,though polished,sound like a rehearsal. I did an A/B on the lp's on a stereo cartridge vs. mono and the mono cart won hands down with the saxophone sounding far more realistic with lots of body. Stereo was fine,just not with the pow of the mono.
This is not a lost album. This was never meant to be an album ,this was a studio work in progress that, in reality lacks the emotional intensity that was the hallmark of Coltrane Impulse albums. It was, and is, a fascinating and enjoyable listening experience. Vinyl is ok,nothing special. What with this lost album hype you would think they would go to a better pressing.
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I have this MJQ SACD also mono, is a very old album from 1956 and it has great SQ, very musical recording, seems all the equipment were tubed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLjjN2zovRU
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This is not a lost album. This was never meant to be an album ,this was a studio work in progress that, in reality lacks the emotional intensity that was the hallmark of Coltrane Impulse albums. I
Two quite debatable points. We don't know what the intention was. Most of the studio albums weren't highly planned affairs, they were often cobbled together from various sessions. And at the very time of this recording, there ended up being a 2 year gap in pure Quartet studio releases. So the intent at the beginning of the session could have been to get material that would result in an album.
Bob Thiele often recorded such sessions with Coltrane, as the label wanted Coltrane to do more commercial style releases - so he tried to get the "real" Coltrane down on tape when he could. The amount, quality, and variety of material in this session could certainly have resulted in an album. Or some of it could have been combined with other sessions to make an album. We don't know why it wasn't released, all or in part (except for one track).
The existence of these tapes was unknown until recently. And if you don't call the master tapes being thrown out by the label and this personal copy being found in Coltrane's former home (of his first wife) 55 years later, "lost" - I don't know what could qualify as being lost.
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Available now on Tidal.
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Based on the four different versions of "Impressions" Trane was trying to trim down this piece to a more conventional,commercial format as directed by Bob Thiele.This was a work in progress and difficult for Trane as he played this piece for up to 45 minutes (one whole set) live.Miles Davis always faulted him for not knowing when to "take the saxophone out of his mouth".During The last tour in Europe with Davis Trane got his revenge by playing the longest solos of his career, and in doing so distanced himself from Miles,who could not tolerate being out of the spotlight. There are some complete performances on this album that easily could fit into an Impulse album at some point in that time frame. "Lost album"..... how about "missing session", no that does not have the commercial zip to it.
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Available now on Tidal.
Thanks JLM! Been waiting for that! :thumb:
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Available now on Tidal.
Thanks, I'll give it a listen today.
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He has a full year of touring planned with the next stop at the Blue Note/NYC at the end of the month.
He's something else to see, especially solo. I've had the pleasure several times but the most memorable was with the then young lion Azar Lawrence. Outstanding!
Can't wait to get the new recording, now on order.
Cheers, Lester
Glad to hear he's doing well, but mystified that I haven't seen or heard any interviews with him about this. I mean, of all people, he should know whether it was intended to be released as an album or not.
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Glad to hear he's doing well, but mystified that I haven't seen or heard any interviews with him about this. I mean, of all people, he should know whether it was intended to be released as an album or not.
Maybe he's opposed to it so the record company made sure that no one asked him....?
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Maybe he's opposed to it so the record company made sure that no one asked him....?
I suppose that's possible, but the record company couldn't stop independent journalists from talking to him. Just seems weird, considering he's the one guy in the quartet still alive, that nobody reports even trying to reach out to him. Maybe he thinks it sucks but doesn't want to undercut his own payday.
Opinions seem divided on how release ready this material was. It's not bad, but I don't think it's top drawer Trane either. And then there's the barely-above-bootleg SQ...