[Diamond Dog]

Anybody have any experience or opinion on PBN amps? I'm thinking about a pair of Mini-Olympias running as monos. Not the most common critters from the research I've done so far.

 http://www.pbnaudio.com/audio-components/audio-amplifiers/mini-olympia-amplifier

D.D.

[arthurs]

Peter makes really high caliber gear and will work with you to get you a listen if seriously interested. I own his speakers, and have heard his SS gear and it's terrific.

[Diamond Dog]

Thanks for this, arthurs. Any specific recollections of build quality and/or sonics? I'm looking for improvements in terms of image depth and separation along with detail over my cyurrent amps with perhaps a bit more warmth. In short, I want it all....
I understand the MIni-Olympias can be run in Class A but I suspect they may not have the horsepower in that mode to drive my new speakers
( 83 dB efficiency ).

D.D.

[arthurs]

Build quality is industrial brick s--- house. Effortless power and dense tonality.  They lean warm but have great detail and clarity. All around strong performers.  Give Peter a call, he's one of the good guys in the business.

[Diamond Dog]

Sounds intriguing - I will follow up on this. Thanks again for your input!

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

Well, got a pair of PBN Mini-Olympias in the house for audition and so far I have to say I'm really impressed. Even in high-bias Class A mode with 30 watts, they are more than up to the task of driving my PMC fact.12s with no lack of dynamics. Ttese are building a pretty solid case for themselves. 

More to follow...

D.D.

[nickd]

Try running them balanced with a PBN preamp and the "holograph" effect is incredible. I'm  Currently using Liberty B2B 100 mono's and going back and forth between the mono's and the PBN SA1. I'm liking both for different reasons. It's like flavors of ice cream, different but all good. It's been a while since I heard the "Mini" but I remember thinking it was very good too. Running Pete's amps with a high current pre is a must if you run balanced, most have a low input impedance (pro level 600-2.5k ohms). They are 47k input impedance if you run RCA's in, but the noise floor is not quite as amazingly low.

[Diamond Dog]

Try running them balanced with a PBN preamp and the "holograph" effect is incredible. I'm  Currently using Liberty B2B 100 mono's and going back and forth between the mono's and the PBN SA1. I'm liking both for different reasons. It's like flavors of ice cream, different but all good. It's been a while since I heard the "Mini" but I remember thinking it was very good too. Running Pete's amps with a high current pre is a must if you run balanced, most have a low input impedance (pro level 600-2.5k ohms). They are 47k input impedance if you run RCA's in, but the noise floor is not quite as amazingly low.

The intention is to eventually run them as monos but right now the roadblock is that I use a single-ended pre-amp and I am advised that the Mini-Olympias can't be run as monos unless using a fully- diferential preamp. I really like my preamp so it's staying put so what will end up happening is that Peter Noerbeck of PBN has offered to build me a buffer so that I can retain my Manley 300B pre but still be able to run in mono using the 75-ohm BNC connection configuration which Peter says is the ultimate way to experience what his electronics can do. DarTZeel uses a similar system so it's hard to argue. Until I can get that looked after and round up some 75 ohm BNC cables, I'm running them in stereo in a horizontal bi-amping configuration, everything single-ended. Even like this, you can hear how remarkably good these amps are. They outclass my current amps in every way and at about a quarter of the rated output into 8 ohms using the low bias setting. Hmmm.... 

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

Some quick impressions of the Mini-Olympia's in action:

- As stereo amps at 160 WPC / 8 ohms used to horizontally biamp the PMC fact.12's, these are very nice-sounding amps. Soundstage is noticeably deeper and projects further forward into the room beyond the plane of the speakers than when using the Bryston 7BSST2's which are my current amps. The PBN's seem to be the proverbial "iron fist in a velvet glove". They offer a tremendous delicacy in terms of detail with a truly impressive three-dimensional presentation in which everything occupies it's own little space with audible "air" around it yet all contribute to the overall picture as a whole without a sense that you are being overwhelmed by detail at the expense of enjoying the music. Remarkable transparency. Along with that, you get extremely satisfying bottom end. I suspect that the Brystons may offer a bit "tighter" bass presentation here but some may actually consider this a result of overdamping. The PBN's bass presentation is far from sloppy. it just seems a bit "warmer" which is totally in keeping with the overall presentation in comparison to the 7BSST2's in this system. This is not to say that the Mini-Olympia's are going to be mistaken for tube amps - rather, they seem to offer a level of transparency and tonal balance which makes them a very appealing listen. They sound quite balanced with no frequency band standing out and while the presentation is vivid, they don't sound "forward". They also add an extremely entertaining level of dynamics to my system which quickly becomes addictive and the "holographic" effect noted by nickd in a earlier post is there in spades.

- As a single, 160 WPC / 8 ohms stereo amp being used to drive the fact.12's, much of what I've noted remains the case but you clearly hear the difference the power reduction makes with these speakers. This is at typical ( for me ) listening levels which are pretty moderate. It's not that a single Mini-Olympia lacks the jam to drive the fact.12's - make no mistake, these are pretty muscular amps. The devil is literally in the details. Where you notice the drop-off is in certain aspects of the presentation which made the previous configuration using two amps so very enjoyable. The exquisite detail loses a bit of definition, delicacy and air, the soundstage loses some of it's three-dimensionality and the stunning holographic aspect mentioned earlier becomes less pronounced. The amp is certainly still capable of driving the speakers into making sound, and at levels which I would never be able to tolerate, but the sound being made is not as appealing as when both amps were being used. With that, I'm certain that the small-amp contingent are ready to start piling up kindling at the feet of this heretic but be assured that, in this instance, more power clearly makes a difference and this likely has as much to do with the frequently-noted power-hungry nature of the flagships of PMC's fact-series as with anything else. The extra juice makes them sing the way they are capable of singing and that's worth the price of admission. Makes you wonder what the effect will be of using them as monoblocks with the matched-impedance connections...

Now to tear all this down and return to the Brystons for some final confirmations of what I've been hearing up to this point.

D.D.

[werd]

Why do you want to run a stereo amp in bridge mode? Why don't you get that 600 watt big boy he makes?  They look good though. 

I know how this is going to end. If you get those amps you are going to end up getting a preamp with Xlr. Manley has Xlr preamps.

[Diamond Dog]

Why do you want to run a stereo amp in bridge mode? Why don't you get that 600 watt big boy he makes?  They look good though. 

I know how this is going to end. If you get those amps you are going to end up getting a preamp with Xlr. Manley has Xlr preamps.

Hi : I spoke with Peter Noerbeck about that very topic - he is of the opinion that that amp sounds it's best in bridged into "differential mode" and I have no doubt as to how the fact.12's are going to react to having all that reserve on tap. Despite a pretty ugly efficiency rating, the impedance of these speakers doesn't drop down to really low levels at any point so should be no worries there. The previous owner ran these in differential mode as well.
Guess what these replaced in his rig ? If your guess was 28's, there's a Kewpie Doll headin' your way. And Manley doesn't make a balanced preamp - das ist verboten in Chino. I believe there is a city ordinance...
As to how this ends, well, here's how this ends:

I'm listening to the 2009 remaster of Abbey Road as I type this out. The Bryston 7BSST2's are back in the system and have been running for several hours so they are good and warmed up. I've been thinking about the 2010 Stereophile review of these amps that got a lot of people in these parts reaching for their pitchforks and lighting torches, getting ready to chase Michael Fremer to the town windmill.I'm not sure that doing a head to head of a $ 30 K amp vs. a pair of amps worth a fraction of that was a square deal other than to illustrate what the extra money can get you in terms of sound quality upgrades. But as far as illustrating what more money gets you and over and above the performance of the 7BSST2's at their price point, it was illuminating. I also read the review he did of the DarTZeels that, at multiples of what his Titan cost, did to his amp what his amp did to the Brystons so I guess cosmic balance was restored.

New, these PBN Mini-Olympia's are worth nearly double the price of a pair of 7BSST2's. It's a big ask and if I wasn't lucky enough to have a used pair kinda drop into my life, there's likely no bloody way I'd be having a pair of these in my system. But you know what? It's good to be lucky...
As to what the extra money gets you, here's what it gets you when you listen to the 2009 remaster of Abbey Road...

 It all basically comes down to this ( and please pardon my colloquialism, ladies ) : Shit gets real. Or at least, more real.
When McCartney hits that real low bass note in Come Together ( you know the one ...One thing I can tell you is you got to be free.... ) and lets it
hang, it sounds like what a bass guitar sounds like when you hit that open string and let it hang - not tight but it just kind of moves a bunch of air as it  swells and fills all the available space and you can feel it... On Something , that staccato organ part has actual attack and a bit of edge to it, hanging in the air while George sings 'I don't wanna leave her now... You know I believe and how " and Ringo's cymbals have some shimmer to them...like cymbals. Maxwell's silver hammer sounds metallic, not like two pieces of metal which have socks pulled over them being struck against each other. Those pond sounds at the beginning of Sun King are AMAZING...Those snarly, distorted guitars in Oh Darling have real snarl and elsewhere, acoustic guitars and pianos resonate like the vibrating things they are. Vocals take on actual character and different guitars going into different amps sound well, different. Clearly different.
And on the topic of clarity, everything occupies a clearly differentiated space in a three-dimensional soundstage and you get a real sense of the recording space.You can pick a particular instrumental or vocal part and follow it as far as you want to. No muddle, no mush. Everybody talks about transparency but when you actually, really hear transparency, it's powerful stuff.
These fact.12's are a very different proposition with the Mini-Olympia's behind them. It's like they're alive...

Oh, and Octopus's Garden is still goofy. They're amps, not a freakin' miracle...

I'm sold.

D.D.



 


 

[werd]

How long have you had the New PMC fact 12s? On the back what are you using for jumpers when running the Brystons. Please tell me you are not using the brass jumpers? When you hooked them horizontal you lose the jumpers by default. Those jumpers shut everything down. As it turns out (it maybe) the best way to run those speakers is horizontal bi-amping, as you've discovered.

It blew me away you can't get a Manley pre in Xlr.

[Diamond Dog]

How long have you had the New PMC fact 12s? On the back what are you using for jumpers when running the Brystons. Please tell me you are not using the brass jumpers? When you hooked them horizontal you lose the jumpers by default. Those jumpers shut everything down. As it turns out (it maybe) the best way to run those speakers is horizontal bi-amping, as you've discovered.

It blew me away you can't get a Manley pre in Xlr.

The fact.12's arrived about ten days ago after a 13-month wait. Epic speakers. I'm using the silver- plated jumper bars they come with but will likely get some XLO Signature 3 jumpers made up for these. I ran the facts with a single Mini-Olympia in stereo as a control to see whether the wiring configuration was making the difference or if it was the power. The single PBN still exhibited all the superior characteristics of the pair but not quite as vividly. Same was true when I ran the pair in high bias mode in the tri-wire configuration. You got the Class A benefits but at the expense of other attributes. These speakers are pretty inefficient by modern standards and I really think the extra power / current is making a difference. That being said though, even the pair of PBN's supplied a lot less wattage than the pair of Brystons ( can't say about the available current ) and there was a night & day difference in the sound. Not subtle. Even the single bi-wired Mini-Olympia was a big improvement so from a pure "sound quality" point of view, so there goes the "bang-for-the-buck" value argument for the 7BSST2's out the window too because the single PBN would be less money than the pair of 7's. I was really surprised at what a difference an amp change could make. Really surprised.

Wow, even by my standards, that's a lot of heresy in one thread...

D.D.

[werd]

You wanna see heresy check this out. (grabs D.D. by the back of the neck and forces his head into the screen and makes his head scan the new amp) 




I wouldn't do anything until you get your jumper situation settled. I also (IMHO  ) would strongly consider a balanced preamp. You got too much going on now and in re-invent mode to tie yourself down with rca only. RCA is good but those 7Bs and my 14 are Xlr amps. Including those PBNs apparently.

I would love to try this chapter couplet classe D amp with your PMCs. Its for sale and literally brand new. Its up on Cam for $12K and retails for 25k. But my ZENs are getting left behind for resolution.

[Diamond Dog]

You wanna see heresy check this out. (grabs D.D. by the back of the neck and forces his head into the screen and makes his head scan the new amp) 




I wouldn't do anything until you get your jumper situation settled. I also (IMHO  ) would strongly consider a balanced preamp. You got too much going on now and in re-invent mode to tie yourself down with rca only. RCA is good but those 7Bs and my 14 are Xlr amps. Including those PBNs apparently.

I would love to try this chapter couplet classe D amp with your PMCs. Its for sale and literally brand new. Its up on Cam for $12K and retails for 25k. But my ZENs are getting left behind for resolution.

Now that's some heresy... good luck to that guy - there's another ad for the Chapter Couplet flagship amp for 4K less...
You still have your Adagios? what happened to those Wharfedale (? ) Opus's  ( Opi?  ) ?

D.D.

[werd]

  You should find out how old that amp is and if there are any issues. Then ask them for a test drive. 1000watts would be fabulous with your PMCs.  You need to plug it into the wall. Mine won't play into my Torus. It will turn on but no signal.  It has some thing to do with their ground scheme I'm thinking.
They use a 16amp fuse.

[werd]

I traded my Wharfedales for a Chapter précis integrated that I use for a preamp. In the end I like the AZs better and the distributor needed a pair of speakers so I traded. They were nice and loud.

[nickd]

Diamond dog, I just checked out those fact.12's on the net.

Nice transmission line! I would bet you have amazing bass. Not sure why they are so hard to drive though? seems like they could get more juice out of the woofers in a line? Perhaps they gave up a lot of efficiency for the really deep bass.

I've always gone with subs because of that. Speakers around 90db just seem more dynamic to me if well designed (they usually don't respond flat below 25-30hz though). I remember living with Totem Manitou II's. They were amazing, but like Maggie's, I just wanted more and more. My amp ended up as hot as a barbecue in July.

You really need to find a way to run the Mini's up as mono's and see where that leads.

[Diamond Dog]

Diamond dog, I just checked out those fact.12's on the net.

Nice transmission line! I would bet you have amazing bass. Not sure why they are so hard to drive though? seems like they could get more juice out of the woofers in a line? Perhaps they gave up a lot of efficiency for the really deep bass.

I've always gone with subs because of that. Speakers around 90db just seem more dynamic to me if well designed (they usually don't respond flat below 25-30hz though). I remember living with Totem Manitou II's. They were amazing, but like Maggie's, I just wanted more and more. My amp ended up as hot as a barbecue in July.

You really need to find a way to run the Mini's up as mono's and see where that leads.

Hi:  The fact.12's are my third consecutive ( and I'm thinking last ) pair of PMC's - I've also owned the FB1i and the fact.8. The thought as I understand it was to get really substantial bottom end from a pretty small floorstander and to do that, they did a lot of pretty tricky stuff. One of the design decisions was to give up efficiency but not allow the fact.12 to drop down to really low impedances at any point. So you end up with a pretty low efficiency but a speaker that isn't horrific to drive...they do like power, though. Apparently the pressure inside this transmission line is pretty high. In spite of the efficiency numbers, these are amazingly fast and dynamic speakers and you will not believe the bottom end coming from these speakers... They really benefit from great amplification and once you've heard them with such, anything less is just not gonna cut it.  So the PBN's are staying and the Brystons are going- the difference in resolution, dynamics and soundstage were just undeniable. The plan is definitely to run them as monos - have you ever tried the 75 ohm matched impedance route that Peter Noerbeck swears by?

D.D.

[werd]

Doesn't your k3 player have a volume with XLR out for controlling those Olympians in Mono?