[RDavidson]

I don't know. I've never owned an EQ that wasn't already built into a piece of gear, like in an HT receiver. Hopefully someone will chime in here. In the meantime I would just search around. I suggested an old Pioneer or Marantz because back when those were built, EQ's were fairly common in hi fi. They were well built, and served as another piece of the competitive puzzle among the good brands of the time. The best EQ's today are probably those made for Pro audio applications, which I know even less about.

[kinku]

I started another thread to invite attention. I am thinking now about EQ vs Sub.In theory Sub should be better since I am not manipulating signal chain.EQ is a complex circuit with possibility of adding noise to signal chain. So lets see if some one has experience with EQ.

[Ericus Rex]

Maybe it's time to go back to a good quality receiver with parametric EQ?

[RDavidson]

Kinku, you're running in circles man and your sending people on a wild goose chase. First we went around and around about tubes. Several people provided some extremely helpful advice. Now there's the whole EQ/Tone Control idea which is perhaps complicating things more than necessary. So before you get more people spinning their wheels regarding EQ's and whatever else, let's just stop and assess things.

What I think we know or you at least expressed:
You're very happy with the highs and mids, but the bass is lacking compared to what you're used to. True?  So we had you try things like giving the amp more warm up time, trying the 4ohm speaker taps, and switching to Ultra Linear Mode. I believe all of these things helped but still didn't give you what you're looking for in the bass department. It is very strange that you were getting better (tighter, punchier, more detailed, louder) bass from an entry level 2 channel Onkyo receiver than your A70T.
This is where we REALLY started questioning the tubes and I think you came to the conclusion the KT88's may need replacement. Adding an EQ, running your source straight into the power amp, or anything else won't change this, if this is indeed true. The problem is, I don't think you know if this is true of not. Correct? I mean, unless you have a tube tester there's really no way to know for sure how much tube life you have. The previous owner estimated 500 hours, which is likely conservative. There could be 800-1000 hours on them. One or more of the tubes could be faulty or dying more quickly than they should. The previous owner could've ran the tubes with the bias set high. There are a lot of things we just don't know. So rather than keep spinning around in place and using people's valuable time, lets just slow down and assess the facts. As a starting point I would advise that you get a new set of KT88's so we can eliminate this as the possible source of the problem. When you receive the new set, send your old KT88's out to be tested by Tube Depot or wherever you get your new set of KT88's from. In the mean time enjoy your new KT88's and let us know what you find. At the very least you'll have a new set of KT88's and you can rest assured that they will be good to go for a long time. Hopefully your old KT88's have enough life in them so that you can keep them around as spares.

What I honestly believe is happening is that you're getting more accurate bass from your new amp. It may not be as loud as your Onkyo, which may have been artificially boosting bass frequencies. You never told us if you were using the tone controls on the Onkyo or not. If you want true bass, you have to have truly full range speakers (which the RS6's are not) or add a subwoofer. No EQ or anything else will force the RS6's to produce bass frequencies beyond what they were designed to produce (without introducing distortion). It's just physics. I still stand by the idea of replacing your KT88's as a starting point. After that, adding a subwoofer is really your best / only REAL option.

[RDavidson]

"No EQ or anything else will force the RS6's to produce bass frequencies beyond what they were designed to produce (without introducing distortion). It's just physics. I still stand by the idea of replacing your KT88's as a starting point. After that, adding a subwoofer is really your best / only REAL option."

Well there are other options..........but not short of starting from the starting blocks again. I think you get my drift.

[kinku]

I am very sure that you are guiding me properly.
I was using my Onkyo TX-8255 at Bass and treble controls turned up fully high.The volume turned down to less than 1/4 th it sounded good in its own limitations.Mids were not clear or even anywhere close to A70-t is. I could not listen to Onkyo  longer either. Simply get bored when I listens to it. I had a Yamaha A1020 for few days as first replacement of Onkyo.Was not good with bass either nor with highs even on class A.
I am just looking for opinions before heading in either way.I do not like the idea of playing with EQ settings for each and every track and do not know anything about it.
I am leaning more towards sub  as you mentioned before and gets the tube changed as the first step.
Where I am unsure from your reply is the following.If the tube get old will it have a tendency to become less efficient with bass reproduction, if it get  an unaltered signal at input. vs if I manipulate input signal to lower mid and high frquencies (What I did with digital EQ)  will it still be weak in Bass reproduction.
I could not listen to the manipulated sound any longer so I changed it back to original config ,so back to square one.Not much bass but I still like it without anything manipulated.
I am sorry ,my intention was not to send people on circles . I simply do not know any better. :duh:Do not have money to experiment with all these options too. Still tube plus sub seems the best way.

[rollo]

The Cayin A70 is bass shy compared to SS breathen period. Read the Ron Nagle review in Enjoy the Music.com. The tonality of the Cayin is VG, especially the m and highs. If you are liking everything but the bass get a subwoofer. Check out HSU or kits. Can you borrow one to experiment with ?


charles

[RDavidson]

Yes, I pointed out this imbalance to Kinku via PM. It doesn't mention that the A70 is bass shy, per se, but rather it's bass quality (and likely quantity) is outshined by it's mids. At the end of the day, however, I would never in a million years guess that an entry level Onkyo had "better" real bass (without using tone controls or EQ).
I completely agree with getting a sub, but still feel it is worthwhile to probably replace those output tubes (which could be underperforming) first, to get a real idea of where he's at sound wise before taking any major steps in any direction.

[RDavidson]

I am very sure that you are guiding me properly.
I was using my Onkyo TX-8255 at Bass and treble controls turned up fully high.The volume turned down to less than 1/4 th it sounded good in its own limitations.Mids were not clear or even anywhere close to A70-t is. I could not listen to Onkyo  longer either. Simply get bored when I listens to it. I had a Yamaha A1020 for few days as first replacement of Onkyo.Was not good with bass either nor with highs even on class A.
I am just looking for opinions before heading in either way.I do not like the idea of playing with EQ settings for each and every track and do not know anything about it.
I am leaning more towards sub  as you mentioned before and gets the tube changed as the first step.
Where I am unsure from your reply is the following.If the tube get old will it have a tendency to become less efficient with bass reproduction, if it get  an unaltered signal at input. vs if I manipulate input signal to lower mid and high frquencies (What I did with digital EQ)  will it still be weak in Bass reproduction.

OK. This is good to know. You had grown rather used to the unnaturally boosted sound of your Onkyo with the tone controls all the way up. What you're getting with the Cayin is a FAR more pure sound, but your brain is telling you that artificially boosted sound is better. This is extremely important info and would've been good to know before people gave you recommendations. Judging by your taste in music you initially told us (classical, vocals, etc.) and the fact you have a turn table, I and probably everyone helping you on this board probably assumed you were looking for something that would give you a great increase in musicality, resolution, and naturalness. But if you like an unnatural sound to begin with, well..............
Yes, underperforming tubes will affect the sound. In the output tubes, this can manifest in weaker bass assuming you're sending a non boosted / non EQ'd signal. With an EQ, all you're doing is manipulating the signal. This can seem to make up for tubes going bad, but this doesn't change the fact that they may be going bad. You're simply masking the problem........like turning your stereo up in your car, so you can't hear the engine falling apart.
I think I'm done here. Change your KT88's. Still want more REAL bass not artificial bass? Get a sub. End of story.

[Ericus Rex]

I was using my Onkyo TX-8255 at Bass and treble controls turned up fully high.The volume turned down to less than 1/4 th it sounded good in its own limitations.Mids were not clear or even anywhere close to A70-t is.

I think we've found the problem here.  The mids weren't good with the Onkyo b/c you cut them way back in the mix by boosting the bass and treble controls.  There's no way ANY amp without tone controls could deliver the bass that you've gotten used to.  What you should do is plug the Onkyo back into the system, turn the treble and bass controls back to center (no cut, no boost and definitely no Loudness switch on) and compare the Cayin to that Onkyo sound.  I'm sure the Cayin will shine in that sort of comparison.  However, you may not like the sound at all without the tone controls maxed.

[rollo]

   Ah ha ! The ol tone control disease. Excellent suggestion Ericus Rex.


charles

[kinku]

I am the sinner who was using tone controls to listen to music
  Davidson kind if signed off on me too.
I will have to change tubes first. Wish I had some friend who uses a good sub.
None of mine even listen to anything better than mp3.
My source are FLAC and vinyl with some high bit rate streaming radios for classical.

[RDavidson]

Not signed off. I'm just not going to engage in any further wheel spinning until you take steps that I and some of the other experienced folks out there have laid out for you. The frustration stems from you not being exactly forthcoming with all info from the start, then stirring the pot with all your questionable trial and error methods that didn't do anything but lead us back to square one. I and others are about out of gas from this.
For testing purposes, you could always buy a sub from your local Worst Buy. Just get a 10", but preferably 12" Polk, Klipsch or whatever. It will likely be some kind of slow, muddy, rumbly, piece of junk regardless. Try it out for 30 days, just to help you get a very general sense of what a sub will do for you, then return it. After doing so, go buy a QUALITY sub that matches the caliber of your system from SVS (or maybe HSU among a small hand full of others) and be done. I'm sure you'll be satisfied by this point.
Based on the whole tone control "issue" your output tubes probably aren't bad, but I would still look at having them tested if you can be without your system for about a week. This would be good just for your own general knowledge. When you pull the tubes, I would label them with a piece of masking tape according to their sockets, so you put them back in their original spots. Maybe someone else will chime in here, but I'm pretty sure you always want to keep the tubes in their original sockets so they continue to wear the way same way they started. I believe this will help tube life, but it could be just an old wives tale from the uber analytical folks in this hobby.

[kinku]

I guess one week without tubes is fine. Any idea how much it costs to check tubes out and any places you have experience with?

[RDavidson]

I would give Tube Depot a call. I don't see this as an actual service they provide, but they'd probably do it for you if you ask nicely. Definitely call them, since they'd be doing a favor for you. Be sure and talk to them about KT88 replacements as well, so they understand that you'd likely go to them to buy replacements when necessary (which you'll know once you have yours tested). They test their own tubes prior to selling them, so they obviously have the equipment and they've always been willing to help any time I've contacted them. If they won't do it, they could probably direct you to a reputable place to have it done. I can't imagine this costing more than maybe $20 plus shipping.

[kinku]

Tried to call them seems like closed for the day.
What do you think about these guys
http://tctubes.com/tube-testing-service.aspx

[RDavidson]

That place looks legit. Minnesota, especially the Twin Cities area, is an audio haven.
Price is exactly as I guestimated. Go for it.

[ltr317]

Tried to call them seems like closed for the day.
What do you think about these guys
http://tctubes.com/tube-testing-service.aspx

The place uses the best tube tester available.  Worth getting tubes tested there. I wish I could afford to buy that tester.

[kinku]

Should I go for the premium test or standard one? I do not know the premium covers the standard parameters too.Any idea. I do not want to ask them stupid question of ismy tube "working good"?

[RDavidson]

Since there is a $20 minimum, you would have to use their premium service. Yes, the premium service also covers the standard tests.
Just call them and tell them you're new to tubes and want to learn more about understanding the results from the test when you get everything back. Simple as that. I'm sure they'll be happy to help you. After all, you sought them out and are paying them for their service and expertise in the matter.