AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Power Conditioning => Topic started by: ajzepp on 13 Dec 2011, 04:15 am
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I saw someone mention the reduced price on some of the Belkin PureAV conditioners, so it reminded me to ask you guys about what I currently have.
A few years ago I picked up a handful of these things for a great price ($20/each)
TrippLite LS606M (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-outlet/dp/B00006B83G)
I have been using these for my HT gear since that time, and have never had any sort of "hissing", or any noise coming through my speakers. I thought they were just surge protectors when I bought them, but apparently they have some conditioning properties, too?
Anyway, what level of quality are these and is there any point in upgrading? If I were to upgrade, what are some recommendations? And how do I know if I have a problem?
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*crickets*
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Save your dough for speakers.
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Save your dough for speakers.
:thumb:
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Give Dave at PI Audio Group a call, he has a circle here. He may have a demo available. Give an Uber Buss a try and see/hear if you need something. I can't speak to what you have, but Dave's stuff is very well received.
Mark
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I saw someone mention the reduced price on some of the Belkin PureAV conditioners, so it reminded me to ask you guys about what I currently have.
A few years ago I picked up a handful of these things for a great price ($20/each)
TrippLite LS606M (http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-LS606M-Conditioner-outlet/dp/B00006B83G)
I have been using these for my HT gear since that time, and have never had any sort of "hissing", or any noise coming through my speakers. I thought they were just surge protectors when I bought them, but apparently they have some conditioning properties, too?
Anyway, what level of quality are these and is there any point in upgrading? If I were to upgrade, what are some recommendations? And how do I know if I have a problem?
The only way to know is to try something else. Dave at PI Audio would be a great place to start (or end).
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Thanks, guys...I will definitely check out PI Audio
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I picked up 2 of the Belkin PureAV PF60 units. I put one up in my living-room on the; LCD-TV, X-Box, Blu-Ray, and Stereo Receiver. My son asked what happened to the TV, he said it looks better than it used to. Down stairs I feel I'm getting a darker background, better dynamics, and more 'Air' from my system. I'm very happy with the results I've gotten from the $250 I spent on the 2 Belkin PureAV PF60 units that I bought. The prices seem to fluctuate, so if you keep an eye on them you may be able to get a better deal than is currently available as the price increased a bit a couple of days after I bought them...
Belkin PureAV PF60 on Google Shopping (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS445US445&aq=f&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Tripp+Lite+LS606M#pq=tripp+lite+smart1500lcd&hl=en&ds=pr&cp=13&gs_id=h&xhr=t&q=Belkin+PureAV+PF60&qe=QmVsa2luIFB1cmVBViBQRjYw&qesig=bRTt0IjJk8esxnaAZKeFJA&pkc=AFgZ2tlfREpZHXkuVvLCH0wI2og9xOwElAClY0UrY9OFGQvoE6Iz8jJadR_wT_b_PJg1azeWPSdN2xwFkcMqJZuXFyjmogbMqA&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS445US445&tbm=shop&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=Belkin+PureAV+PF60&aq=0&aqi=g2&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&fp=2279860aca39e76e&biw=1280&bih=709&bs=1)
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You can't even understand what power conditioning will do for you tell you have experienced it. I know people that claim they have clean power but... give them power conditioning for a week, take it away, and watch the confusion on their face.
To me no system is worth beans without one unless it runs on batteries. It is the cornerstone of a low fatigue system you actually want to listen too.
People think they don't have a problem with noise because they "can't hear it". Often it is an improvement on the existing sound, and not a removal. As you may guess their idea about "removal" has little to do with how it all works.
Although my opinion of most power conditioners, very different story.
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If you want clearer sound, a clearer picture, use a conditioner.
The conditioner will increase clarity, though the downside is by reducing the 'smear' in the lower frequencies, they may seem to be reduced. In fact the Bass is more natural, and less 'wooly, but it may bother lots of folks that the sound seems 'thinner'.
this has been my experience owning over the years:
(3) Adcom AC515, 315
Monster Cable 5000
Monster Cable 7000ss
Monster AVS2000
PS Audio PPP
PS Audio P600
Furman REF20i
I now ony use the PS Audio P600 and the Furman REF20i
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If the bass sounds thinner, you have an ineffective power conditioner.
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Although my opinion of most power conditioners, very different story.
You're allowed to give opinions in this circle too. :wink:
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This Furman unit is a good way to dip your toe in the water. It should give you an idea if it's going to help in your system. ( I think it will :D)
http://www.amazon.com/Furman-M-8x2-Merit-Power-Conditioner/dp/B003BQ91Y6/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325680325&sr=1-3 (http://www.amazon.com/Furman-M-8x2-Merit-Power-Conditioner/dp/B003BQ91Y6/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325680325&sr=1-3)
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It could be worth logging your power supply for a while first.
If there are significant voltage variations a high spec source could help.
Cap storage iirc is proportional to voltage squared.
Some amps give a power output for different real voltages.
When i logged my nominal 240V power supply i had some illegal dips of up to 32V
and a few highs as well.
RF is another issue which i don't have significantly any more; the Bryston amps seem to
have cured that problem.
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You're allowed to give opinions in this circle too. :wink:
The only power conditioner I believe in is the style I make. Long ago on the board the ideas where rejected for poor reasons (biases). The other members went on to build their own, later one began to sell them (feels like LOTR tail or something). People tried them, they helped. However the two of the three people that have bought one from me didn't purchase to "try", - they tried my prototype - they bought them because they couldn't go on being an audiophile without them. The third bought one on blind faith because he was my late grandfather. However one of the original two purchasers has since entirely stopped buying audio equipment. Now he buys music.
Audience Adept AR series are like a cute toy version of what I like.
If bass sounds thin you either have a too restrictive power conditioner, or more likely you have exposed a flaw in your system. Companies rely on bad sound qualities to make up for other qualities. Sooo you know... you control the bloat of the bass when you accept a non-power conditioned situation, and refine your speaker/source/amp to counter-act this inherit bloat. You are artificially creating what in theory should of already been according to measurements.
I think companies do this with most of their goofy power/interconnect/speaker cables too. The industry seems nearly based off of it since many engineers feel most eccentric audio ideas are not going to benefit the listener; yet people choose them for some reason. A sort of careful balancing of correction, over correction, and under correction. It seems clear when you hear some really high end stuff that sounds more refined than your personal experience recording in a studio of equal quality, or of experiencing the musician or another playing the same acoustic instrument right in front of you. Now it might be a subjective matter, maybe you want to hear more than ever intended in a skewed way. Personally I get off on tonality, dynamic range, and separation; all of which are pretty natural compared to nuances. I think power conditioners provide the most of what I like in a quality but no over corrected system.
The only way to know if your power conditioner is really doing something serious, is if you can sit in front of your stereo so long that fatigue is so far away even with some decent volume (maybe more than your use to now), that you will find other reasons to get up hours later; like bathroom break, food, job, whatever has nothing to do with being "done listening to music" or "tired of listening to music". You can easily fall asleep even with moderate volume, if you are tired. What you hear is just beautiful because its music; even when its not your cup of tea. Otherwise it is like sex without an orgasm; you love to do it, but you are always looking for ways to improve the experience because you are looking for more right afterward (but may of tired out) instead of feeling fulfillment.
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I guess I have it right by "Destroyerofsmiles".
Since I listen to music every day for at least 10 hours a day.
I retired a few years ago, spent a bundle on new stuff instead of a new car (to the chagrin of my friends)
So with the stuff I have now i am please to listen all this time, zero regrets.
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The only power conditioner I believe in is the style I make. Long ago on the board the ideas where rejected for poor reasons (biases).
Can you detail the construction of one of your power conditioners? Pics would be great, if possible, too.
Thanks,
Jim
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I don't have any pictures at the moment of a more current one. I use a certain amount of noise suppression capacitors, CMC's, and very importantly earth to ground capacitors. I think Mapleshade use to have an article about power conditioning with the use of capacitors from neutral to ground. I am having trouble finding it. It was certainly many years ago.
The real discrepancies are between the amount of capacitance to use (if you asked Audience they would say the type so they could charge you for Teflon), and when to use or not use a CMC and of what size. I just use Vishay noise suppression capacitors. The amount of capacitance is more important than the quality of it. This is why Audience Adept AR series are only cute. Also the isolation idea is not as worthwhile as they make it out to be, between sockets. It does less than filtration for the whole unit to a higher degree. Although I suppose I could build a unit that had individual capacitance for each socket; it would be enormous though, like the size of two or three conditioners.
It sounds odd but the more of a load you put on your conditioner, the less power it will consume (it becomes more efficient).
In one build I used a ton of Bybee's. The refinement that came with that was perhaps more a matter of taste, not a matter of conditioning. Although on a more clutsy system it made bass articulate in new ways.
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Do you make them for resale or just personal use?
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I have not made it into a retail business, but I do build upon request. Retail business requires a few things, some laws on shipping electronics, etc.
If I lived somewhere that had more people, more interest, I would try to demo more. I gave an attempt at a local venue one time but the sound guy was an idiot. (he even said, "well I am using way less compression on the guitars" - and that was just having one on the stage)
They are not cheap to sell, but to make they are not bad. Still pricing with mark up to make money instead of at cost, comes out way below competition. If you make one yourself you can do things like fore-go X1/2 rated capacitors and things like that. (I use them for insurance reasons, couldn't care less about a capacitor tripping a breaker or failing inside a metal box, but if anything ever happened to a house with unrated equipment, well, they will find a way to not pay out.)
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Do I need Power Conditoning?
The honest answer is probably not. At most you need an MOV to protect your equipment, in fact every electrical device in your home from damage due to overvoltage resulting from spikes and surges. Generally power supplied from the power company is as good as you will get from anything you buy. If you have very expensive audio equipment it should have its own well regulated power supply that will filter out any noise on the AC line including RF anyway. All electronc devices operate on DC and one job of the power supply is to filter out ripples and spikes. That's what the large electrolytic capacitors in them do. If you have less expensive equipment then you wouldn't benefit from it either.
Electrical disturbances fall into 9 categories. Ask the people trying to sell you a power conditioner which ones their product will deal with, how effectively, and which ones it won't. If you have real power problems such as overvoltage, periodic brownouts, a cheap conditoner will not work. That is a far more expensive problem to correct. The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them. Don't waste your money, buy something of real use to you instead. It's just another scam. BTW, if you want to test such a device other than by looking at manufacturer's specifications (real ones like Eaton and Liebert/Emerson will give you complete specs, they have nothing to hide and nothing to gain from hype) the only way is to compare performance when the equipment is on line to the way your equipment performs when it is bypass. Unless a bypass circuit is built in, building one yourself can be very dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing and it will not be covered by UL. That means you will be responsible for any accident from it.
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The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them.
I am a big fan of my Liebert GXT2-3000 / 120v double conversion UPS. These can be picked up for fairly cheap on eBay.
-Jim
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Wow, a most excellent post by "Soundminded".
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To me, one way you can tell if you need power conditioning or not is if you suffer from Sunday-night/Monday-morning (SNMM)syndrome. Sunday night, your system sounds warm and wonderful; Monday morning it sounds cold and uninvolving. Same piece of music.
I had SNMM syndrome before I installed a Running Springs (RS) conditioner. Now I don't. Simple as that. I have, on occasion, rechecked its effectiveness by removing it from the system, but I immediately notice the difference and put it back in. I have no idea what my powerline is doing (voltage fluctuations, spikes, etc.). I do not live in a particularly industrial area and I do not know how the RS would fare if there were real nasties to deal with, but it is just fine for my present situation.
I have no affiliation with Running Springs. Might other conditioners do as well or better? Possibly; I have not done an exhaustive comparison. I bought the RS on recommendation of my friend John Barnes and it seemed to work as advertised so I declined to try anything else. I had a Titan transformer once, but that did not seem to reduce SNMM. The new Shunyata PC's have received a lot of good press lately, but I am happy with what I have.
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I am a big fan of my Liebert GXT2-3000 / 120v double conversion UPS. These can be picked up for fairly cheap on eBay.
My understanding is that a UPS tends to be noisy, i.e. they introduce a low level hum. Some of them have fans. If that's true, wouldn't the use of a UPS be counterproductive to achieving a black background?
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To me, one way you can tell if you need power conditioning or not is if you suffer from Sunday-night/Monday-morning (SNMM)syndrome. Sunday night, your system sounds warm and wonderful; Monday morning it sounds cold and uninvolving. Same piece of music.
I had SNMM syndrome before I installed a Running Springs (RS) conditioner. Now I don't. Simple as that. I have, on occasion, rechecked its effectiveness by removing it from the system, but I immediately notice the difference and put it back in.
The Running Springs stuff is great. You brought up a good point, most do not realize how good power conditioning is until they have one in their setup for a few days then remove it. People are amazed at how much change for the worse occurs after removing it.
I am a fan of either Running Springs or Shunyata for PC's. Have tried MANY MANY others and I keep coming back to these two.
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The honest answer is probably not. At most you need an MOV to protect your equipment, in fact every electrical device in your home from damage due to overvoltage resulting from spikes and surges. Generally power supplied from the power company is as good as you will get from anything you buy. If you have very expensive audio equipment it should have its own well regulated power supply that will filter out any noise on the AC line including RF anyway. All electronc devices operate on DC and one job of the power supply is to filter out ripples and spikes. That's what the large electrolytic capacitors in them do. If you have less expensive equipment then you wouldn't benefit from it either.
Electrical disturbances fall into 9 categories. Ask the people trying to sell you a power conditioner which ones their product will deal with, how effectively, and which ones it won't. If you have real power problems such as overvoltage, periodic brownouts, a cheap conditoner will not work. That is a far more expensive problem to correct. The ultimate solution is called a double static conversion UPS. You're looking at thousands. It deals effectively with all nine of them. Don't waste your money, buy something of real use to you instead. It's just another scam. BTW, if you want to test such a device other than by looking at manufacturer's specifications (real ones like Eaton and Liebert/Emerson will give you complete specs, they have nothing to hide and nothing to gain from hype) the only way is to compare performance when the equipment is on line to the way your equipment performs when it is bypass. Unless a bypass circuit is built in, building one yourself can be very dangerous unless you know exactly what you are doing and it will not be covered by UL. That means you will be responsible for any accident from it.
I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.
This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.
And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.
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I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.
This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.
And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.
+1 on Power conditioning. Cannot comment on RS since we never tried one.
charles
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I used to think I had decent power in my house. Power conditioning saved the day and removed the hash. Still looking for more reduction. :wink:
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I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.
This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.
And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.
I agree that I've never heard equipment not sound better.
I'd like for you to try one of the PI Audio UberBusses though. I know it's not the "hi end" equipment that you normally try but it would be nice if you could sneak in reasonably priced peices into an issue every time (which I've seen more of lately). The funny part is that the Buss might surprise you.
Game?
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Nope. I've heard it and it didn't do the job. All of the lower priced conditioners I've heard do more harm than good. The two lowest priced PC's I've heard that don't affect dynamics or tonality have been the RSA Elgar, and the IsoTek EVO3 Sirius both at $995. If you're going to scrimp on a PC, don't bother. People that do, always go back to the realization that the gear sounds ultimately better plugged into the wall.
On a higher end note, I just got the PS Audio P10 in and it's very impressive so far. I've always found the PS stuff to come up short in dynamics, but the new P10 is excellent. The review is in process.
And for what it's worth, our product mix is the same. We've always tried to put a good mix of entry levee/reasonably priced gear in the pages. It always depends more on who has what available at the time, rather than a conscious effort to review one thing over another! :)
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My understanding is that a UPS tends to be noisy, i.e. they introduce a low level hum. Some of them have fans. If that's true, wouldn't the use of a UPS be counterproductive to achieving a black background?
Zero hum. Yes, they do have fans, but they are standard issue computer fans that are easily replaced with essentially-silent 14dba fans.
There's been several threads on the Lieberts on Audiocircle. Check them out for more info. Again, highly recommended for pure AC regeneration.
-Jim
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I wouldn't have a stereo without power conditioning because I just wouldn't care to listen to it that much.
I consider it the cornerstone.
You don't need it, but why on earth would you want to listen to a stereo without it?
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I hate to disagree here, but I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box, and even a number of highly skeptical manufacturers that swore up and down that "their gear didn't need line conditioning" changed their mind after a 30 sec demo.
This is some of the worst advice I've ever heard.
And, if you don't believe me, grab a RSA box from a dealer for a demo.
"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"
And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?
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"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"
And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?
Yes and no... Your stuff is vastly different.
First off your needs are not that dynamic on power usage, where as audio happens to be. For you, if 1's are 1's and 0's are 0's it doesn't matter how much extra noise and distortion is being generated post-optics unless it begins to change the information. In audio the conversion to analog exploits all the potential noise, distortion, etc, that matters entirely not in your field. I mean if you get a bit of artifacts on the screen once in awhile - that are too small too matter - it isn't going to ruin the examination.
Now I certainly may be ignorant to some of the workings on the things you deal with but... I think my point resonates pretty well.
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"I review really high end gear on a regular basis and I've yet to hear a piece of gear that has not sounded better plugged in to a Running Springs box"
And I design power distribution systems for among other things some of the highest tech labs in the world including electron microscopes that magnify objects by hundreds of thousands of times their actual size and other instruments that photograph individual atoms. If that equipment doesn't require it why does the crap the high end audio industry sells need it? Can't they figure out how to design a power supply that's stable enough and sufficiently immune to noise so that it functions properly?
Actually if you talk to the guys at Shunyata and RSA, they've both sold their products to the medical industry for that purpose...
That world has also started to investigate the whole vibration control thing as well, with positive results.
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Actually if you talk to the guys at Shunyata and RSA, they've both sold their products to the medical industry for that purpose...
Plitron ( Torus ) has also been selling into that and other industrial markets for a while now.
D.D.
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I wouldn't have a stereo without power conditioning because I just wouldn't care to listen to it that much.
I consider it the cornerstone.
You don't need it, but why on earth would you want to listen to a stereo without it?
+1. There's hifi and then there's music. I prefer music, which is what a *good* power conditioner enables me to hear more of.
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WHOA, where did all you people come from :lol:
So if I hear absolutely NO hum whatsoever through my speakers when my gear is on and ready to go, is that an indication that I might have relatively clean power? Especially since I have the Tripp-Lite conditioners in the loop?
If what tonepub said is true, and it's just not worth it unless you're going to spend a lot of money on something really good, then screw it. I think my system sounds damn good right now, but I'm always looking for ways to help it sound better just like everyone else :D
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It is the cornerstone of a low fatigue system you actually want to listen too.
1+ to that comment.
As I "evolve" in this hobby (or become progressively more deceived... :roll:), I have realized that room and power are foundational. I do a fair amount of blinded testing of non-audiophiles to make sure I am not the victim of witchcraft. Power conditioners do make a difference. I do agree with Soundminded in that good, regulated power supplies should be relatively impervious to power disturbances. However, the sonic differences with and without my conditioner (Dale Pitcher's Thereom) is glaring. You go from relatively flat, cardboard sounding to a more 3d soundstage, decay, etc. And that is with equipment that possesses large, regulated power supplies from manufacturers who state that conditioners are deleterious to their products performance.
So, Soundmind, what pearls can you throw our way? Do whole-house grounding schemes (ionic) make a difference? Isolation transformers? What should we be doing?
Soundmind, when did you graduate from EE? It seems as if many tools I know believe most of audio is witchcraft. The blinded experiments from the 80s which apparently demonstrated that coat hangers are equivalent to expensive wire seems to be part of your textbook, knowledge base. Here is a question for you: do you believe power products or wire can effect timing errors (jitter) in the digital domain? Is there any good science to demonstrate why any of this makes a difference?
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Ok these pages are still a work in progress but do contain some useful stuff about power and links to places where you can do further reading...http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/Why-Care-About-Power-and-Grounding.html
There is a lot of bs and not much science in av power product marketing, and it is an area that has been interesting to me of late. I would broadly divide the benefits of power products into two areas - protection and performance enhancement.
My take so far is that the ability to support the current draw peaks (I.e. dynamic load) is very very important...more to come on this from me at some point.
At least have your system surge protected. That would be a minimum.
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Majority of manufactures don't recommend Power Conditioners. However, my PS Audio PPP, P5 and P10 made significant improvements in all areas. The sound is cleaner with better staging, imaging and bloom. I consider them a must in my audio systems.
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Nyal, for the sake of thread flow, what specific aspects of power conditioning is bs and why...
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I am often amazed at the opinions formed by the uninformed. I studied engineering, but I am not an engineer. I am certified in electrical to trouble shoot and repair all types of electrical. At one point, I felt I did not need power conditioning. I had dedicated circuits, why do I need conditioning? I got a good price on a well known high end conditioner. I gave it a listen and heard some good things around notes that I never heard before. The sound stage had shrunk a bit. I am also a DIY'er. I build my own wire and have made huge improvements over some very expensive wire. Was it Belden, no. Power conditioners are built to a price point. I replaced the substandard IEC with a Furutech Gold and replaced the internal wiring with military spec silver wire. I also spent time making the grounds better and silver soldered where solder was necessary. Now the sound stage is huge and the bass is all there along with the whole musical spectrum. I use wire that has a sound I like. Whether it is your cup of tea, may differ, but this is just impressive to me. Would I go without power conditioning? No way. I am sold and this is from experience and my ears. You can't learn that from a book. My 2 cents. :thumb:
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Nyal, for the sake of thread flow, what specific aspects of power conditioning is bs and why...
Hi, I am referring more to the marketing of power products for AV. It is one of those areas where:
- consumers have a general lack of understanding of what power issues there are, which ones they might have and which product solves which issue
- manufacturers add to this confusion by developing marketing material with lots of acronyms and 'proprietary' technologies
- magazines do not generally review power products
- there is a lack of even high level agreement on how to measure the efficacy of power products for high performance AV use
- 99.9999% of written material out there on power quality is from an industrial or computer perspective which have a somewhat different set of power requirements than AV systems
But really for me, and maybe this is my :duh:, it does not seem complicated. Certainly compared to room acoustics it is an order of magnitude simpler in terms of variables to contend with.
From a performance perspective I have an instinct that the ability to deliver the current draw requirements of our AV systems is of equal if not greater importance than noise reduction. I am doing further research in this area and will hopefully be able to put together some findings at some point.
From a protection perspective I have a more conclusive answer which is that MOV based protection except at the service panel (i.e. a whole house surge protector) is not a good idea for any sensitive electronics. The only technology out there which conceptually makes sense in this application is series mode surge protection, offered by a number of companies but interestingly NOT by many others, I believe because it is patent protected and therefore subject to licensing costs.
I recommend the following book which is a little out of date in some aspects (its a book about computer power written in 1987!) and focused on specifics of computer power but provides an quite thorough briefing on power issues and technologies: http://www.amazon.com/PC-Power-Protection-Mark-Waller/dp/0672226375
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Nyal, I agree. Current delivery or limitations thereof seem critical. I think that is why a lot of people have developed an inherent bias against conditioning due to prior generation technologies limiting it. I also agree on the room acoustic issue. I am working with Starsound technologies (most of whom are engineers), and the room game is supremely complicated in comparison.
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1+ to that comment.
As I "evolve" in this hobby (or become progressively more deceived... :roll:), I have realized that room and power are foundational. I do a fair amount of blinded testing of non-audiophiles to make sure I am not the victim of witchcraft. Power conditioners do make a difference. I do agree with Soundminded in that good, regulated power supplies should be relatively impervious to power disturbances. However, the sonic differences with and without my conditioner (Dale Pitcher's Thereom) is glaring. You go from relatively flat, cardboard sounding to a more 3d soundstage, decay, etc. And that is with equipment that possesses large, regulated power supplies from manufacturers who state that conditioners are deleterious to their products performance.
So, Soundmind, what pearls can you throw our way? Do whole-house grounding schemes (ionic) make a difference? Isolation transformers? What should we be doing?
Soundmind, when did you graduate from EE? It seems as if many tools I know believe most of audio is witchcraft. The blinded experiments from the 80s which apparently demonstrated that coat hangers are equivalent to expensive wire seems to be part of your textbook, knowledge base. Here is a question for you: do you believe power products or wire can effect timing errors (jitter) in the digital domain? Is there any good science to demonstrate why any of this makes a difference?
Suffice it to say that I graduated from a small engineering school you probably never heard of in 1969. They made the courses as tough as they possibly could.
" Do whole-house grounding schemes (ionic) make a difference?"
They shouldn't. Residential buildings, especially wood frame houses are invariably star grounding systems (radial systems) virtually identical to isolated grounding in industrial buildings. This is because in wood frame buildings unlike industrial buildings which use metal boxes mounted on metal studs which are grounded there are no opportunities for multiple paths to ground especially if the system is confined to one circuilt or where multiple circuits in the same room share a single ground return wire to the panel. Even if this isn't true a residential building is so small it's hard to establish much difference in ground potential between one part of the building and another. The use of IG receptacles in this type of building is therefore superfluous and rediculous. They are of dubious value even in industrial buildings although I specify them if asked. Their extra cost is marginal.
"The blinded experiments from the 80s which apparently demonstrated that coat hangers are equivalent to expensive wire seems to be part of your textbook"
In analog systems that would be a very bad mistake. Carrying a digital signal, if a coat hanger works at all it should work perfectly. That's one of the beauties of digital signals, the systems either function perfectly or they don't work at all. The only exception is where momentary dropouts lead to operation of bit error correction systems usually interpolating to fill in missing data for brief periods. If this sounds better to someone than the actual data say by clouding a cd with residue from some substance they're entitled to their opinion.
So called "power regenerators" are nothing more than a double static conversion UPS without a battery charger or batteries. IMO they should be compared to the genuine article like those I've indicated in other postings. The one that I've seen advertised recently has claimed marginally lower THD than most comparable UPSs. I doubt that makes any difference. Personally if I were in the market for such a device I'd buy on reputation in the power industry and price. The two brands I've mentioned most are those I believe to be most reliable although they're probably not the cheapest. I've also posted elsewhere that IMO most sound systems will not benefit from anything more than an adequate MOV to protect them from damage due to overvoltage say from a spike.
Power disturbances have been very carefully and thoroughly studied. They are broken down into 9 categories, some of them carry highly technical names such as common mode noise and transverse mode noise while othes are more self evident such as voltage sags, dips, and total loss of power. As I also posted, a UPS will have a bypass mode. Not only does this facillitate repair without interruption which can be a very important feature when used to support data processing and laboratory equipment, in this case it would allow comparing the unit's effect in and out of the power circuit. Power condioners which increase in impedance including progressively as more current is drawn can restrict current flow to high powered amplifiers that are playing loudly. Some may find the result pleasing but from an electrical performance point of view it is clearly a defect.
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Michael Fremer of Stereophile and Robert Harley of The Absolute Sound are both convinced that recently developed DTCD measurements (this is easily googled if you don't know what DTCD is) explain why previous electronical engineering "theory" is misapplied to the performance of sensitive audio equipment.
But even if one doubts DTCD measurements (they or something like them will become a standard tool in the industry), one thing is indisputable: there isn't a reputable professional sound recording engineer/masterer who *doesn't* buy and use specialty power conditioning/power cords for his/her studio in order to improve component performance. That fact should tell us something. But we live in a world where people doubt a all kinds of reality they can't explain, let alone refute.
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Michael Fremer of Stereophile and Robert Harley of The Absolute Sound are both convinced that recently developed DTCD measurements (this is easily googled if you don't know what DTCD is) explain why previous electronical engineering "theory" is misapplied to the performance of sensitive audio equipment.
But even if one doubts DTCD measurements (they or something like them will become a standard tool in the industry), one thing is indisputable: there isn't a reputable professional sound recording engineer/masterer who *doesn't* buy and use specialty power conditioning/power cords for his/her studio in order to improve component performance. That fact should tell us something. But we live in a world where people doubt a all kinds of reality they can't explain, let alone refute.
Please, enlighten us with the very very long list of all the recording studios that use specialty power cords to improve the sound....
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Please, enlighten us with the very very long list of all the recording studios that use specialty power cords to improve the sound....
Bob Ludwig and Doug Sax to name just two. Two of the finest, nicest men in the entire business...so you might think twice about laughing at them. Questioning their lengthy credentials and reputation should keep you busy enough. :thumb:
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http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/studio.htm
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Please, enlighten us with the very very long list of all the recording studios that use specialty power cords to improve the sound....
My hunch is that power "conditioning" equipment, particularly a UPS and most likely a backup generator would be required in constructing a studio for a large commercial recording company. It isn't just to preclude the possibility of noise but the cost of losing a take due to a power outage given how much money it costs to arrange for one makes it worthwhile. There are often multiple musicians, a recording engineer, technicians, various other people required on site for the session. Losing potentially an entire day can be expensive for them. And then there are deadlines to be met, even contractual obligations. If studios are busy they may not just be able to wait it out and come back the next day, the studio may be booked for other sessions. That's different from someone listenng to a stereo system at home. As for special power cords, I doubt it, at least the kind that audiophiles pay big bucks for. Of course you never know, it depends on who is footing the bill. I once saw an ad in Sound and Video Contractor Magazine advising contractors to install their audiophile cables in commercial systems and equipment, not because they do anything of value but because their audiophile customers think they do and expect to see them. The pro market isn't so easily fooled.
Small studios are different. Usually keeping equipment cost low is uppermost in their owners' minds.
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Batteries are one solution to AC problems. But like all other design choices not without their own compromises. Batteries, regenerators, other power conditioner designs all have strengths and weaknesses. Anyone reading this should try out a number of solutions in their own system ad see what works best in their particular context.
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The advances made in power management since 1990 are staggering. Think about the computers that were being used (or not used) at the time. This anecdote may have limited relevance to a decades-later discussion about modern power management.
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The information on Shunyata's Dynamic Transient Current Delivery Analyzer (http://www.shunyata.com/content/DTCD.html) and their testing might be of interest to those following this thread. While much of their testing focuses on power cords, power cords can impact an audio system in a manner similar to a power conditioner - i.e. they can affect current delivery and are effectively a type of filter.
I've never (knowingly) auditioned a piece of Shunyata gear, but I found the information interesting and applaud their focus on actual testing. (I think I learned of their efforts in another AC thread, but I don't remember where.)
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Good point about Shunyata brj. Nordost has developed software that measures changes in timing errors or jitter as a result of cables, conditioning, etc....(http://www.stereophile.com/rmaf2010/nordost_and_vertex_measurements/index.html)
So, the reasons why cabling and conditioning make a difference are starting to unfurl. Not information you would find in a vintage engineering textbook.
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The main reason you need effective power line conditioning is simple. Aside from voltage issues, there is a ton of distortion in the power line. Some from the generation of the power, other from things plugged in on your nearby circuit. (i.e. your neighbors arc welder, your fridge, etc etc) You can easily see and measure this with a Fluke AC distortion meter if that floats your boat.
The power supply in your component, depending on how good it is will take out some to most but not all of this, so the remaining distortion components get amplified by your gear, which leads to that "grainy" sound everyone talks about.
Removing this with a good power line conditioning system results in a grain free presentation.
While you can argue about this until the cows come home, you need only listen for about 30 sec to get the picture.
If the power line conditioning solution you choose, removes the noise from the system, does not compromise tonality or dynamics, you've got it right.
If you eliminate noise but affect the music negatively, you've got it wrong.
In all the time spent arguing about this, a demo could easily have been done.
I highly suggest a few auditions and to get some hands on experience.
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Yes batteries have a signature sound : awesome
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Yes batteries have a signature sound : awesome
There's a little more to it than that....
But overall, I'd rather take a well designed battery supply like Vinnie's Black Lightning on a small signal device over a mediocre AC supply. At the high end, the AC stuff still has more dynamics. And if you don't believe that, come on over sometime and listen to my Vitus audio MPP201 phono stage.
I've used Vinnie's power supplies to excellent result with a number of components and recommend them as highly as the RSA stuff.
I've even adapted other mfr.'s components to use the Black Lightning. But batteries can't help me with a pair of 200WPC Class A mono blocks!
:)
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Haha yeah there is that. I keep forgetting I'm a small room guy. But even then I would have battery powered source gear, dac, all that. Batteries right up to the 200watt mono's.
At least that's what my experience right now is telling me I'd want. I love the sound of that clean clean power.
And I have three AC power supplies for my amp, stock, 30volt, and a big Astron LS 10A, meant to power boat radars. Then I have the battery supply.
By FAR, the battery supply is far more dynamic, clean, and powerful. Batteries provide huge current when needed.
I do realize though that you've heard everything, but when you say AC stuff has more dynamics, you must be talking about some very very expensive gear.
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The main reason you need effective power line conditioning is simple. Aside from voltage issues, there is a ton of distortion in the power line. Some from the generation of the power, other from things plugged in on your nearby circuit. (i.e. your neighbors arc welder, your fridge, etc etc) You can easily see and measure this with a Fluke AC distortion meter if that floats your boat.
The power supply in your component, depending on how good it is will take out some to most but not all of this, so the remaining distortion components get amplified by your gear, which leads to that "grainy" sound everyone talks about.
Removing this with a good power line conditioning system results in a grain free presentation.
While you can argue about this until the cows come home, you need only listen for about 30 sec to get the picture.
If the power line conditioning solution you choose, removes the noise from the system, does not compromise tonality or dynamics, you've got it right.
If you eliminate noise but affect the music negatively, you've got it wrong.
In all the time spent arguing about this, a demo could easily have been done.
I highly suggest a few auditions and to get some hands on experience.
The main reason you don't need a power line conditioner is that your electonic equipment doesn't operate on AC, it operates on DC. The first thing after the power on off switch is a rectifier that converts AC to DC. Then a large capacitor and sometimes and inductor filter out all ripples. And then if you have a really good one it uses a voltage regulator to assure that the output voltage to the rest of the equipment remains constant no matter what the input voltage variations (within limits.)) The larger the power supply compared to the load it will be required to supply, the less it is affected by variations in the input power. The problem usually doesn't stem from the input line voltage but from the inadequacy of the equipment's own power supply. If a power conditioner improves your equipment, a better power supply will do the same at far less cost. If that is the case, chalk it up to the shortcomings of the engineer who designed your equipment. He cut the wrong corners to keep the price at an acceptable point. I improved the sound of my preamplifier just by replacing the power supply's filter capacitor with one three times as large.
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I have been looking into this also. I'm getting hums from my 2 year old Jolida, and I'm thinking maybe if the power was cleaner...
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So voltage fluctuation is the only issue? What about "distortion"?
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So voltage fluctuation is the only issue? What about "distortion"?
"What about distortion?"
Not really an issue. The filter network in a power supply, usually a large capacitor but possibly an inductor as well filters out harmonic products generated by other sources. The specifications of importance in a power supply include ripple (AC voltage superimposed on the DC output) which should be low, and line and load regulation. Line regulation refers to how much the DC voltage output changes with changes to AC input. Load regulation refers to how much the DC output voltage changes with increasing load current drawn from it. Brute force regulation relates to the degree of overdesign of the power supply for its intended load. This can vary all over the place. One measure of how good equipment can be is related to how much it weighs. A heavy transformer and large filter capacitors are a good sign the designer knew that no piece of equipment can be better than its power supply. Another specification of value is slewing rate, that is how fast the power supply can deliver current when the demand on the load changes. Compensation for a poor power supply by trying to condition input power is invariably far less effective and far more expensive than designing a very conservatively rated power supply for its purpose in the first place. It's at best a poor patch.
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I will agree that the better designed the power is the better the overall sound. If ones component is designed with that in mind a PC will offer little.
Saying that our experience with PC has been a mixed bag. Not all are equal. Some components just do not like power conditioners or have little affect. Others are improved. Or they just sound different.
What we can all agree about is that clean power is what we want. In theory noise reduction in the power can be accomplshed in many ways. However does the end result in a different sound. Science says no but our ears say different. Everything you plug in has an audible affect on the music. Why ? Science can not answer that yet.
We look at it this way. Our ears are our test equip. Subjective yes but thats all that matters. All the theory and proper engineering has an end result . THE SOUND. Yes the sound created with ones system in ones room.
Theory is needed to design anything but the proof of the pudding is the sound created. Just try one in your system and determine the end result. really that simple.
charles
SMA
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"What about distortion?"
Not really an issue. The filter network in a power supply, usually a large capacitor but possibly an inductor as well filters out harmonic products generated by other sources. The specifications of importance in a power supply include ripple (AC voltage superimposed on the DC output) which should be low, and line and load regulation. Line regulation refers to how much the DC voltage output changes with changes to AC input. Load regulation refers to how much the DC output voltage changes with increasing load current drawn from it. Brute force regulation relates to the degree of overdesign of the power supply for its intended load. This can vary all over the place. One measure of how good equipment can be is related to how much it weighs. A heavy transformer and large filter capacitors are a good sign the designer knew that no piece of equipment can be better than its power supply. Another specification of value is slewing rate, that is how fast the power supply can deliver current when the demand on the load changes. Compensation for a poor power supply by trying to condition input power is invariably far less effective and far more expensive than designing a very conservatively rated power supply for its purpose in the first place. It's at best a poor patch.
Agreed. Thank you for the sanity. And this, dear reader, is why well designed products from a reputable company like Bryston specifically state (to the effect of) 'do not plug this amp into a power conditioner, it will do nothing to improve the sound, we already built the power supply and internals to remove line noise before it exits the amp.'
There have been no magical "advances" in power delivery or management since 1990. The only thing that has changed (exploded, actually) is cable and 'power' marketing, and plenty of poorly designed/executed products on the market. There's a sucker born every minute, and many a company loves nothing more than a sucker with money to burn. Now, let's see how long my post lasts before it is considered "problematic" and deleted :duh:
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Agreed. Thank you for the sanity. And this, dear reader, is why well designed products from a reputable company like Bryston specifically state (to the effect of) 'do not plug this amp into a power conditioner, it will do nothing to improve the sound, we already built the power supply and internals to remove line noise before it exits the amp.'
There have been no magical "advances" in power delivery or management since 1990. The only thing that has changed (exploded, actually) is cable and 'power' marketing, and plenty of poorly designed/executed products on the market. There's a sucker born every minute, and many a company loves nothing more than a sucker with money to burn. Now, let's see how long my post lasts before it is considered "problematic" and deleted :duh:
Bryston do market a power conditioner (an isolation transformer) made for them by Torus. Having compared a PS Audio P5 to a Torus RM5 in my system I have to say the isolation transformer approach SOUNDS better. I strongly believe it is related to ability to supply the system with the current draw it needs. My theory at the moment, which it should be possible to measure given the right set of test equipment (I am just waiting on a current probe suitable for the task to be delivered), is that it is the limiting of current peaks which is one difference across the power conditioning technologies.
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Good for me - I just bought Wig's Torus CS15 and am eager to try it in my system! I have had no power conditioning in my system to date, so this will be a first and I have a high end 2 channel system.
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Bryston do market a power conditioner (an isolation transformer) made for them by Torus. Having compared a PS Audio P5 to a Torus RM5 in my system I have to say the isolation transformer approach SOUNDS better. I strongly believe it is related to ability to supply the system with the current draw it needs. My theory at the moment, which it should be possible to measure given the right set of test equipment (I am just waiting on a current probe suitable for the task to be delivered), is that it is the limiting of current peaks which is one difference across the power conditioning technologies.
I could be wrong but I believe that Bryston and Torus are no longer 'joined'. Regardless,
agreed, and I too use an isolation transformer to power my entire system. But for the uninitiated, it is important to point out that this is a different ballgame than magical "power conditioning."
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I disagree that removing AC fluctuations is more important than filtration. In fact if rectification and DC side capacitors where good enough by themselves then the Bybee Music Rails wouldn't do anything (and not testimonials have yet to show they don't, that I have found). Furthermore good power filters remove more than "grainy" sound. A lot of what you are hearing that doesn't sound ideal, is not audibly detectable. You can only realize it is different when you remove a power conditioner, and notice the difference. It takes several days before you adjust to the subtleness of it, but you may never be able to do without again.
One of the fellows who got a power conditioner from me has a Bryston amplifier. The rest of his gear is Bel Canto's higher end stuff. I almost couldn't get my prototype back from him... Bryston can say whatever they want, ears dictate more.
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For the sake of clarity, here is Bryston's current ( :lol: I made a funny ! ) position on the use of power conditioners with their gear. This is directly from the 7B SST2 manual:
A/C POWER CONDITIONERS
Bryston urges caution in choosing a power conditioner for your audio/video system. Large power amplifiers can draw very
substantial current from the wall plug, and many so-called power conditioners can in fact hinder the supply of current by
inserting resistances in series with the line cord. However, there are now power conditioners that can reduce or eliminate
RF and 'hash' from the AC supply and may actually improve current delivery to your system. This type of power conditioner
(exemplified by 'TORUS' Power Conditioners) uses the energy storage in a large toroidal transformer to provide high
instantaneous power and reduce the substantial AC output resistance of the wall socket and house wiring. This resistance
can be in the range of 0.5 to 1 Ohm and is typically reduced to only a few milli-ohms by the Power Conditioner. That in turn
considerably reduces Voltage drop in the power line on high current surges and quite substantially increases the stability
of the power line improving audio (and video) focus, precision and clarity.
D.D.
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For the sake of clarity, here is Bryston's current ( :lol: I made a funny ! ) position on the use of power conditioners with their gear. This is directly from the 7B SST2 manual:
A/C POWER CONDITIONERS
Bryston urges caution in choosing a power conditioner for your audio/video system. Large power amplifiers can draw very
substantial current from the wall plug, and many so-called power conditioners can in fact hinder the supply of current by
inserting resistances in series with the line cord. However, there are now power conditioners that can reduce or eliminate
RF and 'hash' from the AC supply and may actually improve current delivery to your system. This type of power conditioner
(exemplified by 'TORUS' Power Conditioners) uses the energy storage in a large toroidal transformer to provide high
instantaneous power and reduce the substantial AC output resistance of the wall socket and house wiring. This resistance
can be in the range of 0.5 to 1 Ohm and is typically reduced to only a few milli-ohms by the Power Conditioner. That in turn
considerably reduces Voltage drop in the power line on high current surges and quite substantially increases the stability
of the power line improving audio (and video) focus, precision and clarity.
D.D.
Bryston got it wrong. The impedance ratio is directly related to the turns ratio. Since the output and input voltages must be the same, 120 volts the ratio must be 1:1
http://nuclearpowertraining.tpub.com/h1011v4/css/h1011v4_46.htm
Good try though.
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Bryston got it wrong. The impedance ratio is directly related to the turns ratio. Since the output and input voltages must be the same, 120 volts the ratio must be 1:1
This may be one of their automatic line voltage adjusting units, if so it will work. That is, it will keep changing the transformer tap to keep the output voltage steady. Now the question is - can the unit do it with high power audio amplifiers? A big power amp only draws high current through a small part of each AC power line cycle.
I went to the 'TORUS' Power Conditioners web page and it's mostly marketing claims! No real technical tests or specs. Oh, and nothing about NEC, UL or CSA testing and listing.
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They are part of Plitron Industries, a long-time and respected company. They certainly have approvals for their industrial products anyway. :thumb:
Plitron works closely with safety agencies to ensure all products meet applicable standards. Plitron products are approved to the following UL, CSA, and IEC standards:
Toroidal transformer construction: UL506, UL1411, CSA 22.2 No 66-1988
Medical transformers and power isolation units: UL 60601-1 (IEC Standard), CSA 601.1
CE & RoHS compliant
In Ontario, ESA
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This may be one of their automatic line voltage adjusting units, if so it will work. That is, it will keep changing the transformer tap to keep the output voltage steady. Now the question is - can the unit do it with high power audio amplifiers? A big power amp only draws high current through a small part of each AC power line cycle.
I went to the 'TORUS' Power Conditioners web page and it's mostly marketing claims! No real technical tests or specs. Oh, and nothing about NEC, UL or CSA testing and listing.
There's lots of talk lately about using an isolation transformer with an ungrounded secondary. That is not legal for this type of transformer in the US unless it is built into the equpment itself, as part of a power distribution network it does not meet NEC requirements. It is technically classified as a "derived source."
Some people claim that a large electrolytic capacitor such as is used in power supplies will not shunt RF noise. I'm not getting into that debate but the cheapest and easiest way to remedy that if it's so is to connect a low value capacitor, say 0.47 mfd across the power supply output, that will be an effective shunt. (This technique is also used by some speaker designers for polypropylene caps in crossover networks who claim polys don't function at voltages near zero volts either.) This will surpress any rf noise superimposed on the DC side. All that is required is that the capacitor have at least as high a voltage rating as the power supply caps and if it is a polarized type that it be connected in the same sense. It should take no more than five or ten minutes for anyone who can handle a screwdriver and a soldering iron and it should cost under $1. Not much profit to be made from it though.
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For the sake of clarity, here is Bryston's current ( :lol: I made a funny ! ) position on the use of power conditioners with their gear. This is directly from the 7B SST2 manual:
A/C POWER CONDITIONERS
Bryston urges caution in choosing a power conditioner for your audio/video system. Large power amplifiers can draw very
substantial current from the wall plug, and many so-called power conditioners can in fact hinder the supply of current by
inserting resistances in series with the line cord. However, there are now power conditioners that can reduce or eliminate
RF and 'hash' from the AC supply and may actually improve current delivery to your system. This type of power conditioner
(exemplified by 'TORUS' Power Conditioners) uses the energy storage in a large toroidal transformer to provide high
instantaneous power and reduce the substantial AC output resistance of the wall socket and house wiring. This resistance
can be in the range of 0.5 to 1 Ohm and is typically reduced to only a few milli-ohms by the Power Conditioner. That in turn
considerably reduces Voltage drop in the power line on high current surges and quite substantially increases the stability
of the power line improving audio (and video) focus, precision and clarity.
D.D.
Depending on the power conditioner it is easy to have filtration and a zero resistance option. (I prefer it with certain amplifiers, especially high powered ones). I usually like to offer low resistance, and no resistance options on a conditioner along side the high filtration sockets. It depends though, different people will want different things for different setups. This one of the problems with something like an Audience Adept, all the sockets do the same thing.
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They are part of Plitron Industries, a long-time and respected company. They certainly have approvals for their industrial products anyway. :thumb:
I thought that they just used Plitron transformers, but I see that they both have the same address. Which by the way is only a few blocks from the CSA office. Notice how well documented the professional products are.
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Depending on the power conditioner it is easy to have filtration and a zero resistance option. (I prefer it with certain amplifiers, especially high powered ones). I usually like to offer low resistance, and no resistance options on a conditioner along side the high filtration sockets. It depends though, different people will want different things for different setups. This one of the problems with something like an Audience Adept, all the sockets do the same thing.
How do you do that and still have an effective low frequency filter?
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Depending on the power conditioner it is easy to have filtration and a zero resistance option. (I prefer it with certain amplifiers, especially high powered ones). I usually like to offer low resistance, and no resistance options on a conditioner along side the high filtration sockets. It depends though, different people will want different things for different setups. This one of the problems with something like an Audience Adept, all the sockets do the same thing.
I for one would like to know how to get zero source impedance. When I learn that I can set Thevenin's theorum aside.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9venin's_theorem
BTW if a source really did have zero source impedance it would be able to supply an infinitely large current and no circuit breaker made could protect against a short circuit in it. Well maybe a vacuum breaker...and then again....
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BTW if a source really did have zero source impedance it would be able to supply an infinitely large current and no circuit breaker made could protect against a short circuit in it. Well maybe a vacuum breaker...and then again....
Not really. "zero source impedance", "infinitely large current" and "circuit breaker" are three different things. If a circuit has the same supply voltage at zero load and at full load it has "zero source impedance".
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Not really. "zero source impedance", "infinitely large current" and "circuit breaker" are three different things. If a circuit has the same supply voltage at zero load and at full load it has "zero source impedance".
No that is not the definition of source impedance. The definition is open circuit voltage divided by short circuit current. However you define "full load" voltage can be increased to compensate for voltage drop due to source impedance as load increases without changing the source impedance. Only when the load is a short circuit, an infinite load, can the source impedance be judged to be zero. This of course is an impossibility. We do however use the assumption of zero impedance at times to calculate short circuit current on the secondary windings of transformers. The actual impedance of the secondary is higher than calculated because it adds to the source impedance adjusted for the turns ratio as referenced in a previous link I gave. That means sizing circuit breakers for the calculated short circuit current will make them adequate for the slightly lower short circuit current encountered in the real world.
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[quote author=
"Here's something to consider when watching electrical experts compare slide rules on audio forums:
Physicists have recently managed to transport a single particle from one vacuum sealed jar..."
Irrelevant. Power distribution is not nuclear physics. It has been well studied and understood for a very long time. Far better than is needed to get audio equipment to operate properly.
It would be fun to see you take apart the white paper on DTCD measurements which was posted on this forum. You're willing to spend hours dispensing your knowledge about decades old electrical design theory but I predict you won't stoop to the heavy labor of responding to a real current expert. I suspect you're all hat and no cattle. Explain why the DTCD white paper is "irrelevant"...and be specific by addressing lines in the paper. Show us what you're really made of. I dare you. :thumb:
Never heard of it before this posting. I assume this is what you are referring to.
http://www.shunyata.com/content/DTCD-whitepaper.html
The flaws are obvious to anyone familiar with facilities based power distribution systems. They fall into several categories. Non real world testing, non verification of test results through measurements of load performance and double blind listening tests, equivalent results by far less expensive methods.
Shunyata's basic argument is that the electrical impedance of a power cord will affect the performance of the load, in this case a high power audio amplifier.
First the nature of the source. The test source in the DTCD has a source impedance of .0016 ohms. Much too low, far from real world applications. Why does that matter? The lower the source impedance and the larger the load the more significant the series impedance of the power cord will be. This is seen in the circuit analysis of Thevenins equivalent referenced above. There are three impedances for this analysis, the source impedance, the power cord impedance and the load impedance all in series with the ideal voltage source.
What is the source impedance in the real world? The absolute minimum legally allowed is .012 ohms. Why? Take a very close look at the circuit breakers in your panel. In the fine print it will say something like 10KAIC or 10,000 amps interrupting. This is the maximum current that circuit breaker will interrupt in a short circuit. The source impedance for this condition is calculated by dividing the open circuit voltage 120 volts by the short circuit current, 10,000 amps. That's about 8 times what Shunyata used. But in the real world that isn't even close. If you were sitting on top of a 50 KVA single phase transformer with a standard 5.75% impedance, the source could deliver no more than 3600 amps so the impedance would be three times as great. In the real world the transformer is somewhere outside your house many dozens to hundreds of feet away and is typically much smaller, say around 10 to 25 kva. The series impedance of the wire between that transformer and your wall outlet including the utility company feeders coming into your house, the contact resistance of the main and branch circuit breakers at their line and load lug connections as well as the breaker contact resistance and the series impedance of the branch circuit wiring must also be taken into consideration when calculating the source impedance for Z(i) in Thevenins theorem. Typically it will be 50 to 100 times or more than 0.0016 ohms. The measurements Shunyata made are already seen as invalid.
The steady state load cannot be more than 12 amps for a 15 amp circuit breaker, 16 amps for a 20 amp circuit breaker. This is because the circuit breaker is rated at 80% continuous load. This is typical for most thermal magnetic breakers including QO types use in your panel (it isn't even called a panelboard by manufacturers it's so light duty, it's called a "load center.) So for a standard 15 amp wall plug (NEMA 5-20P) the load impedance can be no less than 10 ohms, 7.5 ohms if you have 20 amp circuit and a (unusual) 20 amp plug (NEMA 5-20P.) I leave it to you to look up the resistiivity of the wires and estimate the distances to calculate the feeder and branch circuit wire impedance. Don't forget to double the number since you must take into account both the hot leg and the neutral.
I won't go into measureing the differences between amplifier performance and double blind listening tests using different power cords with real world loads and sources, that has been discussed to death.
High quality connectors like Hubbell referenced in the papwer are certainly recommended. Fortunately they are available in practically every electrical supply house in the United States and only cost about $5 to $10 each retail (much cheaper in contractor price quantities.)
Now for the equivalent methods. It is well known that conductiviity in wire is along the surface and skin effect, that is resistance to electron flow increases with frequency. The way to reduce this is to increase the surface area. One method is to use hundreds of strands of very fine wire and hope they have sufficient resistance between them that they behave as individual conductors and not as a single aggregate. This is expensive. The other way is to simply use a heavier gage wire that has a larger surface area because it has a larger diameter. This is very cheap and at least equally effective.
Bottom line, the Shunyata white paper comes to obvious conclusions in a non real world test environment whose results are repeatable using much lower cost equivalents. BTW these flaws were obvious to me within 30 seconds of reading them. Normally I deal with far more arcane problems that can require weeks or even months of calculations and analysis.
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Here's my 2 cents. I have no idea if I need power conditioning and I don't think anybody else really knows either. However, the only outlet near my hifi can only accomodate two plugs. So I have to have something to plug the rest of my gear into. So I bought a running springs haley that has six outlets. I plug everything into except my amp which I run to the wall. It's either this or a cheap power strip. I think of it as an expensive power strip. Nothing more. If it does some good, great. If not, it's still doing it's primary job which is to provide more outlets...
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Hi.
I have no idea if I need power conditioning and I don't think anybody else really knows either. ..
There are tons of EMI/RFI airborne & flowed-in from the powerlines which should be stopped from invading our audio systems.
The point I want to make here is NO NEED of spending a fortune to acquire
costly brandname power conditioners unless one don't know nothing about EMI/RFI & get sorta scared by the terminology & don't mind spending big bucks to get rid of it.
(1) The first groundwork to start power conditioning, IMO, is install dedicated powerlines direct from the electric panel to the audio rig.
Dedicated powerlines will shorten the long long journey of the power supply
from the panel to the audio system by bypassing the long long loops of electrical cables inside the walls. So reducing the RF contamination of the electrical cables to the audio rig by large proportion.
(2) With dedicated powerlines terminated with dedicated wall outlets located just behind the audio rig, the demand of using costly power conditioner/filter will NOT be needed. Big money saving.
At my home, I have had 125V & 250VAC dedicated powerlines installed from the electric panel to my audio rig, terminated with dedicated wall outlets installed just behind my rig
From the dedicated wall outlets to the power strips where my gears plugged in, I installed simple RFI inline filters (10A rated, RFI insertion loss 52dB at 32MHz, made in England) each for each powerline, one for 250VAC, one for 125VAC exclusive for digital gears only (CD player & DVD-audio player), & one filter for 125VAC analogue gears only.
ALL floor running powerline cables are elevated from the floor with semi rigid
foam blocks. NO power cables & power cords are allowed to touch each other.
WARNING: NEVER plug anaolgue gears, e.g. analogue preamps, power amps etc. into power strips sharing with digital gears, e.g. CD players etc.
c-J
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"WARNING: NEVER plug anaolgue gears, e.g. analogue preamps, power amps etc. into power strips sharing with digital gears, e.g. CD players etc."
Why is this?
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Don't know why, but it is common for some power conditioners to have outlets that are specified for analog, digital and sometimes for amps. The APC models are one example.
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Hi.
"WARNING: NEVER plug anaolgue gears, e.g. analogue preamps, power amps etc. into power strips sharing with digital gears, e.g. CD players etc."
Why is this?
Because any digital equipment, e.g. DVD/CD player, cellphone charger, flat screen TVs, etc etc etc, emit airborn RFI as well as discharge RFI to the powerline hooked up to it.
Sharing same power strip or even powerline means allowing RFI discharged by the digital gear into the other equipment sharing the same power pool.
I can read such RFI surge on a power strip with a DVD/CD player plugged onto it, on the screen of a brandname powerline & EMI noise analyser. No kidding, bud
c-J
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Short answer. YES...but only if you want your rig to sound its absolute best.
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I still disconnect (via PS Audio Duet) my HDTV and cable box during listening sessions. Despite what some say the music does sound better. I tried it since I had an extra Duet it works very well for me. Cleans up the hash.
The optimum solution would be to get all of the video gear into another room, but that won't happen without a winning lottery ticket. :lol:
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For me a 20 amp dedicated ciruit [ quad outlet ]. Then a PI Audio Uber Buss for power correction. Digital gear is plugged into an isolation trannie into a power strip plugged into Uber Buss. Quiet, dynamic with tight defined bass. Works for me.
charles
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And I imagine it has been mentioned before, but worth stating again:
If you are concerned with protecting your equipment, be sure that a power conditioned offers surge protection. Not all power conditioners do. The PI Audio Busses for example do not. They are fantastic devices, but for peace of mind I felt it was necessary to pair with something that had surge protection.
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for peace of mind I felt it was necessary to pair with something that had surge protection.
And your choice was?
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Hi.
Short answer. YES...but only if you want your rig to sound its absolute best.
Why not? Proper power fllters should not cost more than a good soundiing system.
c-J
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Hi.
I still disconnect (via PS Audio Duet) my HDTV and cable box during listening sessions. Despite what some say the music does sound better. I tried it since I had an extra Duet it works very well for me. Cleans up the hash.
The optimum solution would be to get all of the video gear into another room, but that won't happen without a winning lottery ticket. :lol:
Glad to hear better sound with purified power.
Don't be silly, RFI is all over the place wherever you move yr digital gears.
There is one economic & yet effective way to minimize RFI discharge into the powerlines by digital equipment, that includes mcrowaves oven, range, frige, washer etc etc which are ALL built in with digital controls.
Clamp one or even 2 RFI ferrite ring suppressors, available dirt cheap from parts shops, onto the power cord of those appliances & devices.
Besides the above, I even do the same to ALL my audio components, including my CD & DVD-audio players, needless to say.
Why? Any elecric conductors, e.g. power cords, speaker cables, interconnects, can be a damn good landing dock for airborne EMI/RFI
& short cuts for powerline RFI.
Adding the ferrite ring will effectively change or mismatch the free space-electro magnetisc fields impedance (377R) of the conductor to stop it from becoming a RFI transmitting/receiving antenna
c-J
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"WARNING: NEVER plug anaolgue gears, e.g. analogue preamps, power amps etc. into power strips sharing with digital gears, e.g. CD players etc."
Why is this?
remember, in a pm, i told you to plug your dac into a separate isolation transformer, and do the same w/your transport? even if you don't plug everything into a single power strip, you will get a lower noise floor and more detail if you do this. 8)
doug s.
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Hi.
.. i told you to plug your dac into a separate isolation transformer, and do the same w/your transport?
Not all "isolation transformers" are angels. Some can ruin the sound quality.
Make sure to listen critically any sound improvement after inserting a powerline isolation transformer. It may or may NOT!
I had my very bad experience by adding a custom-built 1KVA statically shielded powerline isolation transformer, built huge like a battership, with a large O/P AC voltage meter & I/P voltage tapping adjustment knob on the front panel of the steel housing. After I installed it, the music instantly sounded veiled, slowed down & lost vatality. Totally unacceptable sonically....
NOw it is seated idling in my store room for good. What a waste of money. I don't mind at all to sell it to whoever for whatever money.
c-J
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Hi.
Not all "isolation transformers" are angels. Some can ruin the sound quality.
Make sure to listen critically any sound improvement after inserting a powerline isolation transformer. It may or may NOT!
I had my very bad experience by adding a custom-built 1KVA statically shielded powerline isolation transformer, built huge like a battership, with a large O/P AC voltage meter & I/P voltage tapping adjustment knob on the front panel of the steel housing. After I installed it, the music instantly sounded veiled, slowed down & lost vatality. Totally unacceptable sonically....
NOw it is seated idling in my store room for good. What a waste of money. I don't mind at all to sell it to whoever for whatever money.
c-J
What model / brand?
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Hi.
What model / brand?
No brandname. A custom-built 1KVA iron inside a big steel box, professionally built by a powerline transformers specialist shop.
c-J
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Hi.
Not all "isolation transformers" are angels. Some can ruin the sound quality.
Make sure to listen critically any sound improvement after inserting a powerline isolation transformer. It may or may NOT!
I had my very bad experience by adding a custom-built 1KVA statically shielded powerline isolation transformer, built huge like a battership, with a large O/P AC voltage meter & I/P voltage tapping adjustment knob on the front panel of the steel housing. After I installed it, the music instantly sounded veiled, slowed down & lost vatality. Totally unacceptable sonically....
NOw it is seated idling in my store room for good. What a waste of money. I don't mind at all to sell it to whoever for whatever money.
c-J
i have had good results using simple quality medical/lab-grade isolation transformers, that can be bought on ebay for pennies on the dollar...
doug s.
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Hi.
There are tons of EMI/RFI airborne & flowed-in from the powerlines which should be stopped from invading our audio systems.
The point I want to make here is NO NEED of spending a fortune to acquire
costly brandname power conditioners unless one don't know nothing about EMI/RFI & get sorta scared by the terminology & don't mind spending big bucks to get rid of it.
(1) The first groundwork to start power conditioning, IMO, is install dedicated powerlines direct from the electric panel to the audio rig.
Dedicated powerlines will shorten the long long journey of the power supply
from the panel to the audio system by bypassing the long long loops of electrical cables inside the walls. So reducing the RF contamination of the electrical cables to the audio rig by large proportion.
(2) With dedicated powerlines terminated with dedicated wall outlets located just behind the audio rig, the demand of using costly power conditioner/filter will NOT be needed. Big money saving.
At my home, I have had 125V & 250VAC dedicated powerlines installed from the electric panel to my audio rig, terminated with dedicated wall outlets installed just behind my rig
From the dedicated wall outlets to the power strips where my gears plugged in, I installed simple RFI inline filters (10A rated, RFI insertion loss 52dB at 32MHz, made in England) each for each powerline, one for 250VAC, one for 125VAC exclusive for digital gears only (CD player & DVD-audio player), & one filter for 125VAC analogue gears only.
ALL floor running powerline cables are elevated from the floor with semi rigid
foam blocks. NO power cables & power cords are allowed to touch each other.
WARNING: NEVER plug anaolgue gears, e.g. analogue preamps, power amps etc. into power strips sharing with digital gears, e.g. CD players etc.
c-J
Dedicated power lines don't get rid of most of the noise or the distortion present in your power, though having enough power for your amp and source components will help dynamics when you are playing loud.
Good power conditioning still makes a huge difference, sorry.
And what are analog "gears" and digital "gears"? My system doesn't have any gears in it....
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i have had good results using simple quality medical/lab-grade isolation transformers, that can be bought on ebay for pennies on the dollar...
doug s.
Pardon my ignorance, your "isolation transformer" idea sounds like it is worth a try for me. However, how does one look up simple quality medical /lab-grade isolation transformer on e-bay. Could you give me a specific company name, or link to give me an exact idea of what you are describing. Obviously I am new to this kind of stuff and in addition, have a limited budget for such.
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try this one: http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Isolation-Transformer-outlet/dp/B00006HPFH
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...And what are analog "gears" and digital "gears"? My system doesn't have any gears in it....
it is how a non-english-as-first-language individual would pluralize "gear". i suspect you already knew that, tho... :roll:
doug s.
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I find that isolating all the digital equipment on a separate line from all the analog equipment gives the biggest bang for the buck, from a sonic perspective.
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Pardon my ignorance, your "isolation transformer" idea sounds like it is worth a try for me. However, how does one look up simple quality medical /lab-grade isolation transformer on e-bay. Could you give me a specific company name, or link to give me an exact idea of what you are describing. Obviously I am new to this kind of stuff and in addition, have a limited budget for such.
danberg, what jtwrace posted is an example. that one, at 250w, should be adequately sized for most any source component, likely would be fine for a preamp. but, on ebay, you can find similar for quite a bit less money. if you are wanting something large enough to plug an amplifier into, you may have to go considerably larger. these can get more expensive, but again, if you are patient, you will find them quite reasonably. the last big isolation transformer i bought was ~2kva, weighed ~75 lbs, and i bought it for ~$50. shipping cost a bit more! :lol: at this size, they are typically listed for ~$200-$300. one thing to note, regarding these large isolation transformers - they can hum; some folks find this annoying; it was never a big issue for me...
here's a nice smaller unit, that will take 4 gears. :wink: note, though, that this unit will require a special male computer plug, not the normal plug for a power outlet:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/180829309969
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/TOROID-ISOLATION-TRANSFORMER-ISB-030W-Medical-Grade-115-230VAC-4-OUT-/00/s/OTYwWDEyODA=/$(KGrHqJHJBgE8e6)BkfHBPSDpjr6Bg~~60_57.JPG)
two outlet unit, normal outlets:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/270858053848
(http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Dale-Hospital-Grade-Isolation-Transformer-110V-3-5amp-POWER-SUPPLY-W-2-Outlets-/00/s/NzUwWDc1MA==/$(KGrHqZ,!jQE68-o)i!1BOyoIS(Ltg~~60_3.JPG)
same as the amazon tripplite:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320851114083
this one could feed small-med amps:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310379832378
nice, but too expensive, imo:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370573270362
http://www.ebay.com/itm/130642125285
this is sweet, as you can use it as a wariac as well:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/250987210100
5kva - go nuts!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/320796139414
go really nuts - do the whole house!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330692997864
doug s.
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I find that isolating all the digital equipment on a separate line from all the analog equipment gives the biggest bang for the buck, from a sonic perspective.
agreed, but as i said before - separate isolation transformer for dac and separate one for transport. having separate isolation transformers for each piece of digital equipment, imo, is more important than whether or not the digital gears are different power lines going back to the main panel.
doug s.
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Oh no, I mean separate power lines for each. That's the biggie. After that, then comes the isolation transformers.
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Oh no, I mean separate power lines for each. That's the biggie. After that, then comes the isolation transformers.
i know - but if i had to choose one or the other, i would go w/separate isolation transformer for each separate digital piece first. it makes it much less important for separate lines, then. even w/separate lines, the lines typically go to the same panel, and you can get noise from the digital equipment into the other gears. of course, both is best! :thumb:
doug s.
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Both!!!!!! :P
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Over the years, I have tried numerous homemade and commercial power coditioners, even some of the very expensive ones. While the sound always sounded smoother, I noticed a loss of detail and soundstage while using one, somewhat of a veiling effect.
I have never tried an isolation transformer, I guess that should be next on my list.
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Hi.
Glad to hear better sound with purified power.
Don't be silly, RFI is all over the place wherever you move yr digital gears.
There is one economic & yet effective way to minimize RFI discharge into the powerlines by digital equipment, that includes mcrowaves oven, range, frige, washer etc etc which are ALL built in with digital controls.
Distance and shielding can also reduce RFI. FCC Type B certification goes a long way towards mitigating RFI. Microwave ovens can also be unplugged. As for the fridge and range, well ...
The idea of ferrite chokes has been around a long time and sometimes helps solve the problem.
The idea of huge power transformers was implemented by one of Tice's first units. I had it and while it helped souce devices, it didn't work as well on high power amp. Also these transformers can tend to hum.
Some of the modern (and expensive) devices are quite good even for high power amplifiers. YMMV
If you have a highly resolving, most of these inexpensive suggestions will (IMHO) cause more problems than they will cure.
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Hi.
Both!!!!!! :P
Yes, Both plus clamp-on RFI ferrite suppressors on power cords of ALL digital related appliances & equipment, particularly our computers.
As I already posted above, with dedicated powerlines installed, we don't need any more to acquire costly brandname conditioiners as the short-cut powerlines exclusive for our audio rig are already much less RFI contaminated. A much less costly inline powerline filters will do an as effective job as those costly conditioner.
Why we want to spend our hard earn cash to finance those expensive conditioners vendors ?????????????
Over the years, I have tried numerous homemade and commercial power conditioners, even some of the very expensive ones. While the sound always sounded smoother, I noticed a loss of detail and soundstage while using one, somewhat of a veiling effect.
Bingo! Like isolation transformers, not ALL conditioners are angels sonically.
Many complex conditioners employ tons active electronics to do the filtering can only screw up the sound. With dedicted powerlines & simple LINEAR inline filters, RFI can be removed effectively without affecting our music.
c-J
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HI.
The idea of ferrite chokes has been around a long time and sometimes helps solve the problem.
(1) Some of the modern (and expensive) devices are quite good even for high power amplifiers. YMMV
(2) If you have a highly resolving, most of these inexpensive suggestions will (IMHO) cause more problems than they will cure.
(1) Something DONE is better than nothing done, correct? Put aside the technical ground that supports using such RFI ferrite rings, those rings are so cheaply available. Why not try them on as 'supplement' to other RFI installatons? It won't hurt!
(2) Really? Have you ever tried them before commenting? So what would YOU suggest us to use that would not cause "more problems" before wrecking our wallets.
FYI, I have a "highly resolving" audio at home as I can hear the sonics of powerline isolation transformers & filters. It also tells me simple inline RFI filters do the job big time without screwing up my vinyl music & wrecking my wallets.
Be a smart consumer by spending money wisely.
c-J
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Hi.
I find that isolating all the digital equipment on a separate line from all the analog equipment gives the biggest bang for the buck, from a sonic perspective.
BINGO !!!
That is exactly what I have installed for many years & what I am suggesting here.
Be a wise consumer, buds.
c-J
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The Topaz Ultra ISOTX is a non evasive isolation trannie. Meaning does no sonic harm that we could detect.
However I would use the IT on digital only. Just do not care for Isolation trannie on Amps. Not all are the same sonically. Some rob dynamics, others alter the soundstage bringing it way upfront.
If one happens to use a PI Audio Uber then from panel a surge protector first, then ISO then Uber for digital. For Amps just another Uber. All fed from dedicated lines, one each.
charles
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HI.
(1) Something DONE is better than nothing done, correct? Put aside the technical ground that supports using such RFI ferrite rings, those rings are so cheaply available. Why not try them on as 'supplement' to other RFI installatons? It won't hurt!
(2) Really? Have you ever tried them before commenting? So what would YOU suggest us to use that would not cause "more problems" before wrecking our wallets.
FYI, I have a "highly resolving" audio at home as I can hear the sonics of powerline isolation transformers & filters. It also tells me simple inline RFI filters do the job big time without screwing up my vinyl music & wrecking my wallets.
Be a smart consumer by spending money wisely.
c-J
1) As I said YMMV.
2) I've tried quite a few with mixed results. So far the best have been Synergistic (which doesn't do surge protection) and Running Springs.
3) How I spend my money is my business. How you spend your money is your business. I don't need a rude lecture from you.
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i have had good results using simple quality medical/lab-grade isolation transformers, that can be bought on ebay for pennies on the dollar...
doug s.
A medical isolation transformer is not appropriate for home use. They provide 'isolated power', unreferenced to ground, just the thing for working around explosive aneshetics, as the initial spark is mitigated, but around ground referenced AC feeds, a substantially increased shock hazard. One should modify the internal connections to rebond safety ground to the appropriate secondary lead to insure proper polarity and neutral.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58816)
I actually own that Toroid Corp. medical isolation transformer unit referenced. It is, to be charitable, a mediocre AV conditioner, at best, whether run in it original isolated configuration, or reconfigured as a code compliant and safer isolation transformer with a proper ground-neutral bond. The standard 3 amp Felix will stomp it. But that does require minimal diy skills, as does properly re-configuring a medical isolation transformer with a proper neutral.
FWIW
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A medical isolation transformer is not appropriate for home use. They provide 'isolated power', unreferenced to ground, just the thing for working around explosive aneshetics, as the initial spark is mitigated, but around ground referenced AC feeds, a substantially increased shock hazard. One should modify the internal connections to rebond safety ground to the appropriate secondary lead to insure proper polarity and neutral.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58816)
I actually own that Toroid Corp. medical isolation transformer unit referenced. It is, to be charitable, a mediocre AV conditioner, at best, whether run in it original isolated configuration, or reconfigured as a code compliant and safer isolation transformer with a proper ground-neutral bond. The standard 3 amp Felix will stomp it. But that does require minimal diy skills, as does properly re-configuring a medical isolation transformer with a proper neutral.
FWIW
i have a balanced felix; i agree it's better. i use my felix for my front end; but isolation x-formers between the felix and source equipment are plugged into the felix. i also have this toroid exact unit. it is perfect, imo, for plugging a cd transport, tuna, etc, into it. if you plug your cd transport/tuna/etc into a preamp w/interconnects, your system will be grounded. if none of your equipment is plugged into a grounded power conditioner, or directly into the wall, then yes, you then might have a grounding issue.
ymmv,
doug s.
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Doug,
Balanced Felix? Do you mean a Felicia? If so, ditch the Felicia and build yourself Felix(s). Its simpler and works far better, both objectively and subjectively. Regardless of its positive reception, I will always view the Felicia project as an indiscretion of my youth. :oops:
The code prohibition against mixing ground referenced mains power (as in one's home) with isolated power has nothing to do with grounding equipment. [components powered by isolated power still have safety grounded chassis when non Class II.] Not relevant to this discussion is the fact that relying upon an interconnect to establish a safety ground is dangerous and unnecessary. Using interconnects to establish signal ground continuity, with a single component link between signal and safety ground is just fine, but a different matter entirely.
Neither you or I get a vote on the safety of mixing of isolated and conventional ground referenced mains power. It would be simpler and safer to simply establish an appropriate safety ground/neutral bond on the secondary of the medical isolation transformer(s), or simply parallel multiple Felixs for isolation without endangering yourself and others.
FWIW
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Whether or not the OP needs power conditioning is not for me to say, but some surge protection might not be a bad idea... :green:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/03/07/science-solar-storm.html
D.D.
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And anyone shopping for power conditioning should be sure to confirm whether or not a conditioner provides surge protection or other protection for your equipment.
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Hi.
And anyone shopping for power conditioning should be sure to confirm whether or not a conditioner provides surge protection or other protection for your equipment.
Mmmm. Power surge is imperial for data equipment. For audio, IMO, not that critical.
FYI, the inline RFI filters installed for many years now on the dedicted powerlines for my audio rig have never got any surge protector at all. IMO, surge limiting is not done properly, can ruin the sound.
c-J
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...IMO, surge limiting isf not done properly, can ruin the sound.
agreed - if anything is not done properly, regarding audio, it can ruin the sound. i had a tripplite 2400w surge protector; it made my gear sound weiled and compressed. doesn't mean it is difficult/expensive to do it properly, tho...
doug s.
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No argument about poor implementation being able to ruin the sound. But knowing the quality of my power, I want the assurance that my equipment is protected. I eventually went with the Running Springs Haley because it offered protection while not limiting dynamics even for the amps I have plugged into it. That was the real selling point of it for me.