[DMurphy]

So, who would be brave enough to remove the drivers and show us what's inside the ST-HT3? 

There are little men with outstretched arms who critically damp wall vibrations in real time.

[Rick Craig]

It originally wasn't going to be a comparison. I was invited for an audition. Bringing my M80's was an afterthought that came into play almost immediately during the arrangements.

You may have missed an important point that I made. The M80's and the ST's happen to be at very close pricing.

"The M80's performed fairly well for their pricepoint, however, if you were to add in the extra cost for a real wood veneer finsh on the M80's (shown here in Cherry for $1790 with free shipping http://www.axiomaudio.com/customstudio.html?prodCode=M80VS ) they are priced rather closely with the ST's and certainly NOT in the same league for the same price. "

Salk Song Towers are $1795 with standard veneers plus shipping. Can't get a much closer pricepoint than that!

Sorry - I missed that. With that in mind the ST is the clear winner.

[BoB/335]

I will note that the basic design of the Axiom has some real problems with two tweeters and two mids arranged like that. Also the weight for that size of cabinet (M80) indicates thin walls and / or limited bracing and possibly woofers with very small magnet structures.

Could you clarify this statement. What are the problems with two tweeters and two mids arranged like that?

[Rick Craig]

I will note that the basic design of the Axiom has some real problems with two tweeters and two mids arranged like that. Also the weight for that size of cabinet (M80) indicates thin walls and / or limited bracing and possibly woofers with very small magnet structures.

Could you clarify this statement. What are the problems with two tweeters and two mids arranged like that?

The response will have peaks and dips with the upper frequencies. This happens when the wavelengths become shorter than the center-to-center distance of the drivers. At the crossover point they are using there's no way to get around that, regardless of what they do with the crossover. In my opinion it's a really poor design - probably an attempt to look "impressive" with all of those drivers. The problem you run into with a floorstander in that price range is spreading the cost over too many components and large cabinets. They obviously skimped on the cabinets and drivers.

[The Ninja]

Hello.  I hope you don't mind me posting here.  I saw a link to this thread and was hoping it would be OK if I shared my thoughts on a few things that were brought up.

I'm not sure why you think it's a load of bunk that most do not listen on-axis.  You and everyone in the room with you listen exactly on-axis?  My own personal experience in audio (over 20 years) suggests otherwise.  I can only surmise from your post that your experience suggests otherwise.  It's not a load a bunk just because you disagree  

Finally, we can easily customize the network for a flat top end a 0 degrees.  No problem at all.

Sean

I see that skiing ninja claims that the rise in their revision was on purpose for off-axis listening because "most users do not listen exactly on-axis."  That's a load of bunk if I've ever heard it.  Anyone who pays for an "upgraded crossover" probably listens on-axis.   

http://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-onaxis-fr-comparison-lg.jpg

[The Ninja]

We tend to work on the smaller speaker in a product line first.  Personally, I like to get a feel for how the speaker is constructed, how the drivers perform, that sort of thing.  Indeed the pricing of the new network relative to the price of the speaker itself is too close.  We don't expect to sell a lot of them.  Sure this is a business but it is fun too so we don't mind doing it.  

Let's see. $470 for a pair of M22's (even cheaper through the Outlet Store) and $317 for new crossovers. I wonder how many people actually do that.

It's also been suggested to me to have Axion send me some resisitors to place on the tweeter section to roll off the highs a bit.

Let's see what happens tomorrow!

[Nuance]

Hello.  I hope you don't mind me posting here.  I saw a link to this thread and was hoping it would be OK if I shared my thoughts on a few things that were brought up.

I'm not sure why you think it's a load of bunk that most do not listen on-axis.  You and everyone in the room with you listen exactly on-axis?  My own personal experience in audio (over 20 years) suggests otherwise.  I can only surmise from your post that your experience suggests otherwise.  It's not a load a bunk just because you disagree  

Finally, we can easily customize the network for a flat top end a 0 degrees.  No problem at all.

Sean

I see that skiing ninja claims that the rise in their revision was on purpose for off-axis listening because "most users do not listen exactly on-axis."  That's a load of bunk if I've ever heard it.  Anyone who pays for an "upgraded crossover" probably listens on-axis.   

http://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-onaxis-fr-comparison-lg.jpg

Of course we don't mind you posting here...why would we?  

Yes, myself and everyone I know that is serious about audio sits on-axis.  When we hold speaker GTG's, we all rotate in and out of the on-axis seats.  We do test off-axis response, of course, but no one is going to intentionally sit off-axis.  Sure, we'll throw some music on while we work around the house and what not, but for critical listening no one I know (dozens of people, maybe hundreds) sits off-axis when critically listening.  So you see, this is not solely based on only me disagreeing.  I mean no offense, of course, as you are free to design crossovers any way you'd like.  However, I do believe the explanation is far from the truth concerning people normally listening off-axis.  

Finally, I'd like to reiterate that someone who feels the crossover of the Axiom speaker is lacking most likely isn't going to limit themselves to listening off-axis.

Take care.

[The Ninja]

There was significant cone breakup with the original network.

Let's see. $470 for a pair of M22's (even cheaper through the Outlet Store) and $317 for new crossovers. I wonder how many people actually do that.

It's also been suggested to me to have Axion send me some resisitors to place on the tweeter section to roll off the highs a bit.

Let's see what happens tomorrow!

Like you, I'm kind of doubting a lot of those $317 crossover mods are going out the door.  And the designer is using a philosophy I don't think holds up.  He deliberately elevates the on-axis response at the upper end so that the response 30 degrees off axis will appear flat, arguing that most people listen off axis, so that's where you want flat response.  The problem is, most people don't end up listening that far off axis at normal listening distances, and certainly not if any toe-in is used.  Plus, that on-axis sound isn't just disappearing--it's getting reflected and reaching the ears indirectly.  the overall response will still sound bright.   As for just using resistors--that's tricky.  The brightness you are hearing may be due to inadequately controlled cone breakup in the metal woofers, which usually is in the 5-7 kHz range.   Adding tweeter attenuation isn't going to do anything about that. 

[The Ninja]

You and I have very different experiences regarding this.  I have no doubt you speak the truth.  I guess you do have doubt that I speak the truth.  Not much I can do about that other than offer the possibility that others have experiences that differ from your own.

Have a good day. 

Sean

Hello.  I hope you don't mind me posting here.  I saw a link to this thread and was hoping it would be OK if I shared my thoughts on a few things that were brought up.

I'm not sure why you think it's a load of bunk that most do not listen on-axis.  You and everyone in the room with you listen exactly on-axis?  My own personal experience in audio (over 20 years) suggests otherwise.  I can only surmise from your post that your experience suggests otherwise.  It's not a load a bunk just because you disagree  

Finally, we can easily customize the network for a flat top end a 0 degrees.  No problem at all.

Sean

I see that skiing ninja claims that the rise in their revision was on purpose for off-axis listening because "most users do not listen exactly on-axis."  That's a load of bunk if I've ever heard it.  Anyone who pays for an "upgraded crossover" probably listens on-axis.   

http://www.skiingninja.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/axiom-m22v2-onaxis-fr-comparison-lg.jpg

Of course we don't mind you posting here...why would we?  

Yes, myself and everyone I know that is serious about audio sits on-axis.  When we hold speaker GTG's, we all rotate in and out of the on-axis seats.  We do test off-axis response, of course, but no one is going to intentionally sit off-axis.  Sure, we'll throw some music on while we work around the house and what not, but for critical listening no one I know (dozens of people, maybe hundreds) sits off-axis when critically listening.  So you see, this is not solely based on only me disagreeing.  I mean no offense, of course, as you are free to design crossovers any way you'd like.  However, I do believe the explanation is far from the truth concerning people normally listening off-axis.  

Take care.

[The Ninja]

BTW, I have nothing but respect for Salk loudspeakers.  My personal opinion is they are excellent.

[Nuance]

You and I have very different experiences regarding this.  I have no doubt you speak the truth.  I guess you do have doubt that I speak the truth.  Not much I can do about that other than offer the possibility that others have experiences that differ from your own.

Have a good day. 

Sean

Sean,

Of course other's have different experiences than I.  That's what makes this hobby so fun and informative.  However, no one that I know who listens to music critically sits of-axis.  Period.  

To each his own.  And again, I mean no offense, as I am sure your work is very well done.

Take care.

[GeorgeHudetz]

Sean,

Of course other's have different experiences than I.  That's what makes this hobby so fun and informative.  However, no one that I know who listens to music critically sits of-axis.  Period.  

To each his own.  And again, I mean no offense, as I am sure your work is very well done.

Take care.

So, just to be clear, you listen with the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, as opposed to the tweeter axes intersecting somewhere behind your ears?

[DMurphy]

Hi Sean   I see I got your attention.  The conversation seems to have become a bit polarized.  I don't think it's a question of listening directly on axis, or significantly off axis. I suspect that most people (myself included) listen somewhat off axis horizontally, and that in terms of degrees it's someplace in the 10-20 degree range at a normal listening distance.  All of the speakers I have designed for Jim measure very similarly on axis and 15 degrees off axis--certainly up to 10 kHz.  I am confident that if the response were allowed to rise starting at 7 or 8 kHz, the rise would still be evident 15 degrees off axis.  I haven't heard any of your crossovers, but I do have extensive experience with those of an eletrical engineer who deliberately builds a rising resposne into the on-axis response.  The crossovers are beautifully integrated, but the resulting sound is always bright, on or off axis.  

Plus, the on-axis sound will be reflected, particularly off of drywall, and therefore will figure in the overall response even if you're listening off axis.  All of this aside, it does look like your crossover fixes a midtreble peak that might be woofer breakup (?).  If so, then it's quite possible that your crossover is a significant improvement, and that most people would hear the improvement as a less bright and irritating sound irrespective of the profile has been chosen for the response further up.  

[Nuance]

Sean,

Of course other's have different experiences than I.  That's what makes this hobby so fun and informative.  However, no one that I know who listens to music critically sits of-axis.  Period.  

To each his own.  And again, I mean no offense, as I am sure your work is very well done.

Take care.

So, just to be clear, you listen with the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, as opposed to the tweeter axes intersecting somewhere behind your ears?

It depends on the speaker, drivers used, room acoustics/interaction, etc.  Besides, when I refer to on-axis, I mean between the two speakers in order to get the proper stereo imaging.  Off-axis usually refers to a degree of measurement in which one sits off to the left or right of the speaker or "sweet spot," with the "sweet spot" being between both speakers at the listening position.  The definition I was referring to was concerning that "sweet spot and it's axis."  If we are talking "axis" based on one speaker or amount of toe-in, then we are talking about two different definitions.  If our definitions of "on-axis" and "off-axis" differ, then we'll just attribute our differences to that.  I hope that make sense.

In short, in varies on a number of different things and preferences, but it would seem our definitions may simply differ.  Ideally, a speaker will remain flat directly on-axis and measure similarly to at least 15 degrees off-axis (more is better).  That's just my opinion, of course.

Hope that clears up any confusion.  It would seem our descriptions of "on-axis" simply differ, however both are viable and applicable. 

[The Ninja]

These are not my words but I do believe they are apt to this conversation:

I think too many people fail to realize that you don't really just hear the on axis response. You hear the "in room" response. That in room response is a combination of on and off axis plus room reflections.

The room reflections are not a controlled variable but the speakers off axis response is.

Even JA at Stereophile has recently added more off axis measurements and a room response measurement to his standards.

Another thing to note is that in just about any room response measurement you'll see a dropping off in the top octave even if the speaker is measured on axis. I guess most people have just not done any or seen enough of these to know about the room effects.

Most overlooked and one of the more telling of what the in room response will be is the vertical off axis response. This off axis response will be a large contributing factor to the room response. Floors are often carpeted and will help to attenuate the top octave, but ceilings are largely overlooked and are a huge reflection point. I think a lot of people would be real surprised at the disrupted vertical off axis responses of their favorite speakers and what the ceiling reflection looks like. And typically the vertical off axis is the most overlooked of all measurements.

What's really ironic is how everyone always shows one or two horizontal off axis responses in their measurements and side wall reflections vary greatly from room to room. Then we rarely see vertical off axis measurements but a ceiling reflection is almost a constant (varying only some with height).

[The Ninja]

Interesting.  I've honestly never heard of on or off axis when referencing the sweet spot.  Glad we got that cleared up!

Besides, when I refer to on-axis, I mean between the two speakers in order to get the proper stereo imaging.  Off-axis usually refers to a degree of measurement in which one sits off to the left or right of the speaker or "sweet spot," with the "sweet spot" being between both speakers at the listening position.  The definition I was referring to was concerning that "sweet spot and it's axis."  If we are talking "axis" based on one speaker or amount of toe-in, then we are talking about two different definitions.  If our definitions of "on-axis" and "off-axis" differ, then we'll just attribute our differences to that.  I hope that make sense.

In short, in varies on a number of different things and preferences, but it would seem our definitions may simply differ.  Ideally, a speaker will remain flat directly on-axis and measure similarly to at least 15 degrees off-axis (more is better).  That's just my opinion, of course.

Hope that clears up any confusion.  It would seem our descriptions of "on-axis" simply differ, however both are viable and applicable.

[DMurphy]

I think too many people fail to realize that you don't really just hear the on axis response. You hear the "in room" response. That in room response is a combination of on and off axis plus room reflections.

The room reflections are not a controlled variable but the speakers off axis response is.

Even JA at Stereophile has recently added more off axis measurements and a room response measurement to his standards.

Another thing to note is that in just about any room response measurement you'll see a dropping off in the top octave even if the speaker is measured on axis. I guess most people have just not done any or seen enough of these to know about the room effects.

Most overlooked and one of the more telling of what the in room response will be is the vertical off axis response. This off axis response will be a large contributing factor to the room response. Floors are often carpeted and will help to attenuate the top octave, but ceilings are largely overlooked and are a huge reflection point. I think a lot of people would be real surprised at the disrupted vertical off axis responses of their favorite speakers and what the ceiling reflection looks like. And typically the vertical off axis is the most overlooked of all measurements.

What's really ironic is how everyone always shows one or two horizontal off axis responses in their measurements and side wall reflections vary greatly from room to room. Then we rarely see vertical off axis measurements but a ceiling reflection is almost a constant (varying only some with height).

I don't really disagree with any of this, although the implications are less than clear.  Unfortunately, we don't have a good model of how the ear processes direct vs. delayed reflected information, so it's difficult to specify what kind of on-axis response and off-axis profile will sound most natural.  Vertical response is a very tough nut to crack unless you're working with  coincident drivers in a coax configuration.  The vertical off-axis response will just about always show a deep null developing around the crossover region, because the relative flight times of the tweeter and woofer will change, thus undoing the careful phase integration the designer has attempted on axis.  All-in-all, it's amazing these things sound as good as they do given all the room interactions and our basic lack of understanding about their practical significance. 

[opnly bafld]

So, just to be clear, you listen with the tweeters pointed directly at your ears, as opposed to the tweeter axes intersecting somewhere behind your ears?

It depends on the speaker, drivers used, room acoustics/interaction, etc.  Besides, when I refer to on-axis, I mean between the two speakers in order to get the proper stereo imaging.  Off-axis usually refers to a degree of measurement in which one sits off to the left or right of the speaker or "sweet spot," with the "sweet spot" being between both speakers at the listening position.  The definition I was referring to was concerning that "sweet spot and it's axis."  If we are talking "axis" based on one speaker or amount of toe-in, then we are talking about two different definitions.  If our definitions of "on-axis" and "off-axis" differ, then we'll just attribute our differences to that.  I hope that make sense.

In short, in varies on a number of different things and preferences, but it would seem our definitions may simply differ.   

 

Aren't "on-axis" and "off-axis" definitions the same no matter where you sit in the room or how many speakers there are?
For example I could sit to the left of the left speaker and point both speakers directly at me, wouldn't that be "on-axis" for both speakers?

Lin  

[The Ninja]

Could not agree more!

All-in-all, it's amazing these things sound as good as they do given all the room interactions and our basic lack of understanding about their practical significance. 

[BoB/335]

Did my thread get hi-jacked AGAIN!