AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => ACI => Topic started by: budyog on 27 Sep 2006, 06:59 pm
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I received my 2nd Maestro about 4 months ago, finally got it in to the house and set up about a month ago, played it on its own for several hours to get it a little broken in, then put the new version of the R-DES in line and made about 30 some adjustments with the SPL meter and now I got my pair of Maestro’s at +4 db from 17Hz to 80Hz and holy cow does it sound sweet! :D
I have been using a single sub for about 10 years including a couple Velodyne models and then a year or so ago being that I love ACI speakers & company and went from the Sapphire3s to the Panorama’s, I had to purchase the big one. I sold my Velodyne HGS-15X immediately. The Maestro blew it away in all sub aspects. I have wondered what stereo Maestro’s with the Panorama’s would sound like. Then Mike said they were changing the look so I placed my order for the very last Maestro to match my other older version Maestro. And all these years I was told bass is non-directional.
It may be if it is recorded that way. I have listened to many recordings and can’t believe some of the very low bass sometimes more to one side or the other. I have always been a fan of a big sound with a stereo system and now I really have it.
This set up with the R-DES in line and tuned the way I have it gives me extreme punch, low Hz down to 16 (that is where the test disc starts) up to around 80 and then the Panorama’s kick in and take it from there. I have lots of headroom with the 2 Maestro ICE amps which are only set a bit over ¼ volume.
The sound is very full from wall to wall and floor to ceiling. With everything dialed in so well, even my Panorama’s sound better, which is very hard to imagine? I am sure it is because with a sub on each side, I have a fuller sound coming out. Things sound more even and precise.
Looking at the graph I plotted out with the R-DES interface, it is amazing how much I had to remove to get an almost flat response. If you have a sub and do not have an R-DES, get one. It is a super piece of equipment. I will even tweak mine some more to get it closer to +1, 2 db down the road and also set up a few other options being that the R-DES has a total of 4 choices.
I have also notice that I am not playing my system as loud as before to get the same results. A pair of Panorama’s and a pair of Maestro’s and an R-DES has brought me up to another level in my quest for my ultimate hi-fi system; of course everything else downstream must be added to the equation of why my system sound sooooo good!
I will be updating my photo gallery soon; I made some pretty cool stands for my Panorama’s sitting on top of my Maestro’s.
Here is my tip to couple my Maestro’s to my harwood floors and my Panorama’s to the Maestro’s. I am using Con-Tact brand, non-adhesive Ultra grip Liner. It works great. Nothing moves. Everything is solid to my floor! I have tried floor spikes with hardwood floor protectors and just did not like them. I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.
I am sad to hear the ACI is discontinuing the Panorama’s. They are a very fine speaker, built like a tank, can take all I have to give and just get better sounding with age. Mike, you outdid yourself with them and the Maestro. What a setup. I am happy, happy, happy! :thumb:
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Hey Bud,
Are you running the Panorama's full range?
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I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.
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I also have my ports plugged and the ACI 85Hz high-pass filter in line to the Panorama's.
Thanks :icon_lol:
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Budy:
One of these days I want to make it up "north" to hear your system. I know the care and time you've expended to dial that system in. I agree with you on R-DES, yes it takes a little work, but it can turn very good bass quality into GREAT bass quality. I'll say the same thing about stereo subs. Neither of these approaches is for the folks who can't or won't expend the extra effort to make it come together. Both approaches are perfect for someone like you who wants the very best sound and is willing to put the time into making it happen. Notice I didn't say money :) You're system isn't inexpensive by any means . . . but I know people who have more money in just their main speakers or just their electronics who are not even close to what you have. Congratulations, I'd love to see some pictures!
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Mike, as I have said many times, the invite is always open, I am easy to find and I think you will find it quite enjoyable but you would probably have to spend the night, remember I said, I have 2 and sometimes 3 Summits on tap all the time! aa Here would be you and me! :beer: I owe you!
You know what is also really nice is that even at very low volume, the low end is so strong, not loud, strong and there. Remember the days of the loudness button? That R-DES is such a nice piece of equipment. With all the room peaks gone, it so nice to here the low end the way it should sound. tight and clean through the whole range, and boy do these Maestro's go looooooooooooowwwwwww!
Talk about live concert feeling :rock: Whoosty, this system rocks my socks off!
Having 2 subwoofers is the only way to go :D
Pictures coming as soon as I get my camera back, hopefully next week!
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Here are a couple of pics with my custom I-beam stands!
There are many more in my gallery.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;user=3646
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13646/IMGP7077.jpg)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13646/IMGP7104.jpg)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13646/IMGP7060.jpg)
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Very cool stands!
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Cool set up
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I just have to say, WOW Mike! What a set up. Last night I was pushing my system to a new limit and boy was it sounding SWEEEEET. I was putting mega watts into those wonderful Panoramas’s. The new Larry Coryell, Victor Bailey and Lenny White SACD “Traffic” is recorded almost like direct to disc with a single point microphone, very few effects and in a church. It is beautiful. I had it crank so loud, I finally blew a 5 amp, amp speaker fuse and the Panorama’s took it with ease and having good source material and super AVA equipment before the Panorama’s helps make the whole package. I was not putting any crap into them, just 3 superb musicians cranking out some super fusion jazz, shaking our pant legs and totally blowing me and my buddy away, again aa. Thanks for building bullet proof, superbly sounding speaks. They rock!
Happy Holidays to all! :xmas:
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I was listening to my system the other day after many months of not touching a thing and now that the other sub is near broken in. I rechecked my responses with the DB meter. Boy things have changed. After a few tweaks, I got those measurements closer to flat again but still working on it but I have been noticing something else over the past few years. Every time something sounds so good I tend to sit up at the edge of my couch closer to the speakers by a couple of feet and it always seemed to sound better, bigger and fuller. I would move forward to about 9' from the speakers in the center compared to my 12' where I normally sit. My Panorama’s are about 9' apart, so I tweaked them out, facing almost straight forward. What a difference it has made.
I am going to be moving them a little closer to each other and firing them straight forward in the next few days. I have never faced my speakers straight forward. I do no, If one likes it, then that is how it should be. Just curious if you have any thought Mike? Do a lot of people put them closer together and face them straight forward?
Never to old to try something new and maybe learn something! :D
.
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A couple of things are happening. As you change angles, you are changing the amount of reflected sound and where it is reflecting from. Generally, the correct amount of toe-in yields a rock solid center image with plenty of soundstage width. By eliminating the toe-in, you are probably reducing the "solidness" of the center image slightly, but creating a sense of greater expansiveness.
Also, when you move the speakers closer together or change your listening position you change how the speakers are interacting with the room and the at the seat frequency response changes slightly.
You point out something VERY important . . . there is NO substitute for taking the time to experiment with speaker and listener placement. It can be the difference between good and GREAT sound. Thanks for bringing it up, I hope more folks will spend some time with this . . . fun, informative, and productive :)
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Hi Budyog,
You have a very nice system! :thumb:
I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe
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Hi Budyog,
How big is your room ? and what is the dimension ? I am using a pair of Force for stereo sub as well. I always wondering if upgrading to a pair of Titian or Maestro will give me much for my 17'x17' room.
Thanks.
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Hi Budyog,
You have a very nice system! :thumb:
I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe
Joe:
What are you using for main speakers? That's what we need to know to recommend the high-pass filters.
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Hi Budyog,
You have a very nice system! :thumb:
I have a couple of questions concerning your stereo Maestros.
I am currently using a multi-channel SS pre-pro, but want to try stereo subs in a two channel setup. I would like to split the output from the preamp and use ACI’s in-line filters, probably the 85 Hz. But will consider the 65 Hz unit.
My concerns are:
A) Is the 6 db/octave filter steep enough? Do you feel it should be steeper? and
B) Will there be loading problems with a tube pre driving a SS power amp and the sub?
I am curious how others are driving stereo subs? Would I be better off using the balanced filters from ACI, with single ended adapters? (ie: 12db/octave?)
Thanks,
Joe
Thanks Mike for chiming in on this one. You would be able to answer this much better then me!
With my Panorama's I am using the ACI 85Hz filters into my AVA-350 and the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps using the 4th order with a 24DB octave rolloff so I can fine tune using the rolloff on the Maestro amps.
That seems to sound very good to me.
Hi Budyog,
How big is your room ? and what is the dimension ? I am using a pair of Force for stereo sub as well. I always wondering if upgrading to a pair of Titian or Maestro will give me much for my 17'x17' room.
Thanks.
My room is 14 x 17 with a 9 foot ceiling. They kick arse! But I do recommend the use of an R-DES. It is the key to good strong tight bass! Well worth the extra cash.
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Budyog,
First of all someone who lists Gentle Giant and BrandX in the same thread deserves an Attaboy!
A few questions for you please:
- I'm not sure I follow your connection to the stereo subs. Sounds like your preamp has two pairs of outputs one of which goes to the filters-AVA-Panorama. But then
the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps
I'm confused about the Y-cording. Isn't the R-DES a stereo (or dual mono if you will) unit that has L/R inputs and L/R outputs (the same EQ is applied to each channel, right?), so you wouldn't need any Y-connectors? Or are you using a ".1" output for theater use? - Maybe that's my answer. Just trying to visualize how you have this set up.
- Have you noticed any change in sound w/ the 85 hz filters? Are they totally benign?
Thanks
-Mike
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My understanding for RDES is it is a mono EQ device even it has L/R Input and Output as you pointed out same EQ apply to both. That is the reason why I didn't go for RDES. If you really want to run stereo subs, you need two RDES (one for each channel) and apply separate EQ curve to each channel.
Please let use know how you like the 85hz high pass filter ? THanks.
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I thought the conclusion from another thread was that the R-DES will pass a stereo signal without summing the channels - (like the Velodyne SMS does) but that it does apply the same EQ to both channels. Of course ideally you would want to have separate EQ for each side, but I wonder how you could possible measure them independantly to get the proper eq for each. If you did one at a time, you would be ignoring interaction w/ the other - Do 'em together and you can't tell which needs what!
Anyway I'd still like to know about the R-DES. Needing 2 for 2 subs changes the $$ equation.
I haven't been able to find the manual online.
Thanks, anyone who knows!
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Budyog,
First of all someone who lists Gentle Giant and BrandX in the same thread deserves an Attaboy!
A few questions for you please:
- I'm not sure I follow your connection to the stereo subs. Sounds like your preamp has two pairs of outputs one of which goes to the filters-AVA-Panorama. But then
the other set of preamp outs to my R-DES, then Y-cording it into my 2-Maestro amps
I'm confused about the Y-cording. Isn't the R-DES a stereo (or dual mono if you will) unit that has L/R inputs and L/R outputs (the same EQ is applied to each channel, right?), so you wouldn't need any Y-connectors? Or are you using a ".1" output for theater use? - Maybe that's my answer. Just trying to visualize how you have this set up.
- Have you noticed any change in sound w/ the 85 hz filters? Are they totally benign?
Thanks
-Mike
Mike, yes, My AVA T7SLR has 2 pre outs. One goes to sub amps and one goes to the mains.
I use a Y cord out of the left channel of the R-DES to both the left and the right input of the left Maestro amp and another Y cord out of the right of the R-DES to the left and the right input of the right Maestro amp.
I have not noticed any change with the 85HZ filter in-line except nothing below 85HZ. They must be benign! Since I went to 2 Maestros, I put the 85s back in. I tried the 65s but at higher volumes, that was to much of a strain on the Panorama woofer when I had 1 Maestro. The Maestros work wonderfully from 85 and down. I think I actually have them rolling off around 80.
I am a big fan of both Gentle Giant and Brand X. Some of Phill Collins best stuff. and knowbody can touch Gentle Giant!
My understanding for RDES is it is a mono EQ device even it has L/R Input and Output as you pointed out same EQ apply to both. That is the reason why I didn't go for RDES. If you really want to run stereo subs, you need two RDES (one for each channel) and apply separate EQ curve to each channel.
Please let use know how you like the 85hz high pass filter ? THanks.
This question came up on here before about the R-DES being mono. So I called Sean at AV123 and asked him. He said no, the R-DES is a stereo digital sub EQ. If you have doubts, call him and ask him to address this issue on AC.
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OK thanks for the clear explaination. I didn't realize the sub amps had stereo inputs.
-Mike
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Hi Mike,
Seeing what budyog has done and having a pair of Maestros, I will want to pull out the 2ch pre and try stereo subs.
I will try this with a pair of Allison AL-125s, a 3-way system with 2- 6” woofers in a push pull arraignment, -3db = 48Hz; -6db = 38Hz. I believe the 2nd woofer comes in at around 100HZ on down with a half section (12db/octave?) crossover. The second woofer is reversed to lower harmonic distortion. I realize I’ll loose some of the benefits of the 2nd woofer, but…
These are about 30 in tall x 11 x11 so copying Budyog’s setup has crossed my mind. i.e.: speakers on top of subs.
I’m interested in your recommendation for Xover F and is the 6db slope of your rca filters steep enough?
I noticed you also have balanced filters with a 12db slope. Can the xlrs on those be used with xlr to rca adapt, or would you loose the extra slope?
Also, would there be any advantage to spacing the subs wider than the main speakers? Or is that back to trial and error? I’m looking at a 25 ft wall with the mains about 10 to 12 feet apart.
Thanks,
Joe
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Will the vibration coming from the Maestro sub be transferred to the speaker on top and causing coloration or disortion ? Most people do is to isolating their equipment from vibrating partners with cones, or with other dampering mechanizm ?
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Will the vibration coming from the Maestro sub be transferred to the speaker on top and causing coloration or disortion ? Most people do is to isolating their equipment from vibrating partners with cones, or with other dampering mechanizm ?
I spoke with Mike Dzurko about to couple or to de-couple. First off, The Maestro's are very heavy and only slightly thump at extreme volume. Very rarely played at that volume and if you are like I have, there are so many other things in the room possibly distorting the sound, you would in no way here anything distorted coming from the speakers in relation to sitting on top of the sub unless your equipment is peaking and sending distortion to the mains.
In my case. I am using a thin rubber no-slip matting under the sub and it works great to absolutely couple it to the floor. It don't move at all! It almost like sucks it down to the floor. Then I am using 1/4 inch thick solid steel I beam about 20lbs, coupled with the same no-slip rubber matting between the I beam and the sub and the I-beam and the Panorama which are is about 60lbs, totally full speaker to floor couplization. No dis-coloration whatsoever! The matting is the stuff that goes under rugs to keep from sliding around the hardwood floor. It works great.
So, to couple or to de-couple. I feel if you can couple to make one that is as good as to de-couple. I did use separate stand and points etc to de-couple before but now with the stereo subs, this setup works super and sounds super to me!
Plus ACI builds such rock-solid inert cabinets , I really don't think it matters that much what their speaks are sitting on!
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Hi Mike,
Seeing what budyog has done and having a pair of Maestros, I will want to pull out the 2ch pre and try stereo subs.
I will try this with a pair of Allison AL-125s, a 3-way system with 2- 6” woofers in a push pull arraignment, -3db = 48Hz; -6db = 38Hz. I believe the 2nd woofer comes in at around 100HZ on down with a half section (12db/octave?) crossover. The second woofer is reversed to lower harmonic distortion. I realize I’ll loose some of the benefits of the 2nd woofer, but…
These are about 30 in tall x 11 x11 so copying Budyog’s setup has crossed my mind. i.e.: speakers on top of subs.
I’m interested in your recommendation for Xover F and is the 6db slope of your rca filters steep enough?
I noticed you also have balanced filters with a 12db slope. Can the xlrs on those be used with xlr to rca adapt, or would you loose the extra slope?
Also, would there be any advantage to spacing the subs wider than the main speakers? Or is that back to trial and error? I’m looking at a 25 ft wall with the mains about 10 to 12 feet apart.
Thanks,
Joe
Joe:
I would use the 6db passive filters, it just seems too much complexity to be using additional adapters and such with the balanced filters. I think the 85Hz would likely be the best overall.
I think what Budyog has done is really cool, especially for saving space. IF you have plenty of space, I still think there is the potential advantages to placing the subs separately of being able to experiment with the placement of the subs to get the smoothest in-room bass response. So, yes, you're right, I would certainly experiment with sub placement if I had the flexibility to do so . . . sometimes just a little move can make big improvements.
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I forgot to mention. The wife factor! :duh: If I have 2 subs the size these are, I cannot have them just placed anywhere! This is the living room! It might be different if I had a separate listening room, but I don't think I would change it. It really sounds great! I would probably keep them the way I have them. I feel it keeps that true stereo sound I like. aa
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Three generalities that should be considered.
1) The closer the subs are to the mains, the easier it will be to get seamless integration. Adjustment is not quite as touchy when the subs are under or right next to the mains.
2) Placing the subs under or adjacent to the mains might not yield the smoothest bass response possible. Optimum sub placement can be modeled with software, but generally requires actually moving the subs around the room and listening and if possible, measuring.
3) Placing the subs adjacent to the maximum # of room boundaries, I.E. the corners, will yield the maximum output levels and often provides a pretty smooth response as well. But, see #1, this may require the most tweaking of the controls to get best integration. Also, just moving the sub a couple inches out in either direction might be advantageous. In a sense, the corners provide free bass capability. However, if you have more than enough air moving capability for your room, (twin Maestros in Budyogs room certainly counts), the advantages of the corner probably don't need to be considered.
Being generalities they are NOT absolutes, but might help someone trying to decide on initial placement. For a lot of people, the best move could be to start with the subs under or very close to the mains. Get this dialed in and you will at the least, have great integration and good bass response. If you want to seek even smoother and or more potent bass response, experiment with sub placement.
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Thanks Mike and Budyog for the info and advice.
Mike, I'll try the 85Hz filters w/speakers on top of subs and go from there.
Budyog, Can you recommend any disc(s) with lots of low stereo bass, or that demo low stereo bass?
Thanks,
Joe
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Hey Joe,
I will think of what I have and reply soon.
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Bela Fleck and the Flecktones "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" is one of the classic bass torture tests.
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Watched 2 good movies this weekend, and did they sound great!
Saturday night was “Night at the Museum” I like this movie! Fun and entertaining, but the sound was fantastic! I felt low bass that seem to roll across the floor in waves when the T-Rex would run around. A good one for stereo subs. You could feel the movement from one side to the other. And when all the animals were running around, We were immersed in sight and sound!
Sunday night was something totally different! “Letters from Iwo Jima”. All subtitles. Another very good movie if you like movies about war. Very well done, very moving and again, great sound, another one where stereo subs seem to come into play. When you heard or saw explosions in the picture off to one side or another, you could feel the low wave/aftershock come from that side of the room. Even the gun shots were tight and real sounding.
The only small thing about the movie is you could tell the computer generated ships at sea, but understandable. I do not think it could be done any other way. We probably do not have enough ships in our fleets!
I feel I must have things dialed in pretty good. I do not seem to want to change a thing!
I will update my gallery pictures with my new TV soon.