Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?

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jjss49

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #20 on: 29 Oct 2022, 05:05 pm »
i tried very hard to like my m3 sapphires but i just could not live with the bright aggressive treble, unfortunately, despite my dedicated room being very well treated, reflections well controlled - this was one of my more memorable disappointments in this hobby

to be clear, clayton is just a prince, he worked with me for months, even sent me resistors to tamp down the tweeter output

i suspect most users will find happiness using tube amps to drive the spatials... i felt solid state amplification was definitely needed control the sizable dual woofers (to me the bass response is the towering strength of clayton's designs) but then the treble remained unrefined and fatiguing, despite much much effort to ameliorate

anyhow, that is just my experience, only one data point... there are clearly many many other very happy users out there loving their spatials, and power to clayton and to them
« Last Edit: 30 Oct 2022, 02:24 am by jjss49 »

Tyson

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #21 on: 29 Oct 2022, 05:30 pm »
You should try the X3 or X5, the tweeter is not bright on them at all.  And they are very sensitive so can easily be driven by a tube amp. 

In fact I've been driving my X3's with a 2 watt Type 45 SET amp for the past few weeks.  Glorious.

jjss49

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #22 on: 30 Oct 2022, 03:13 pm »
You should try the X3 or X5, the tweeter is not bright on them at all.  And they are very sensitive so can easily be driven by a tube amp. 

In fact I've been driving my X3's with a 2 watt Type 45 SET amp for the past few weeks.  Glorious.

yes fair point

i debated with clayton at the outset whether i should get the x series vs the m sapphires... he advised the latter... perhaps it was my bad that i didn't sufficiently emphasize my aversion to elevated treble response... one day i may well try a set of x3 or x5's but presently i am fine and very happy with my speakers in the fold...

Mr. Big

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #23 on: 30 Oct 2022, 03:40 pm »
I ask Clayton if you could use the silk dome tweeter that he is now using, might be able to switch it out with the perless that was used int the M3's. I've not had a issue with an overly bright sound in my room with 3 different sets of SS gear, McIntosh, Luxman and Mark Levinson.

Early B.

Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #24 on: 30 Oct 2022, 04:57 pm »
I ask Clayton if you could use the silk dome tweeter that he is now using, might be able to switch it out with the perless that was used int the M3's. I've not had a issue with an overly bright sound in my room with 3 different sets of SS gear, McIntosh, Luxman and Mark Levinson.

It's conceivable that the reason you haven't heard an overly bright sound is that these speakers are more revealing than the ones you've owned previously.

A big assumption you're making is that the speakers are the culprit for your system sounding bright. It's not likely. Your speakers are giving you what they're getting. You gotta look upstream. The first place to look is your interconnects. What are you using?

   

NoahH

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #25 on: 30 Oct 2022, 05:17 pm »
Somewhat piling on Early B's comments, do you have silver wiring in the mix somewhere? That is the other really comment brightness source people forget about.

jjss49

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #26 on: 30 Oct 2022, 07:21 pm »
if the comments above were meant for me (not sure if they were), no the rest of system is not bright

not new to this rodeo  :beer:

DaveWin88

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #27 on: 30 Oct 2022, 08:05 pm »
I'm actually surprised they're not any worst. Having a hard surface, 32mm (1 1/4), playing down low 570 something, sealed. All a recipe for disaster. Struggling with mine as we speak. Some good points were made in the original post. Mac's and Luxman are I'm guessing very forgiving amps.

2bigears

Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #28 on: 30 Oct 2022, 08:34 pm »
 :D the tweeters were hot to my ears too. Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire.  Tube pre with SS amp. Just saying. Such a touchy crowd this can be.  :D

DaveWin88

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #29 on: 30 Oct 2022, 08:40 pm »
:D the tweeters were hot to my ears too. Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire.  Tube pre with SS amp. Just saying. Such a touchy crowd this can be.  :D
Have in-line attenuaters you plug into the tweet signal wire.......Hook us up man :)

catluck

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #30 on: 31 Oct 2022, 02:26 pm »
yes fair point

i debated with clayton at the outset whether i should get the x series vs the m sapphires... he advised the latter... perhaps it was my bad that i didn't sufficiently emphasize my aversion to elevated treble response... one day i may well try a set of x3 or x5's but presently i am fine and very happy with my speakers in the fold...

JJSS - FWIW, I did share with Clayton my aversion to elevated upper-frequencies which often drove me from rooms at shows (in addition to too LOUD).  Sometimes I'd sit with fellow audiophile friends whose systems' sound left me perplexed (how could anybody be satisfied with that presentation?). Clayton promised me the Peerless (M3) was not elevated and with a trial period....  In reading this thread I'm reminded how variable sensitivities can be demonstrating the difficulty Clayton (or any manufacturer) faces when offering advice to prospective buyers.  I find the Peerless unit to be, if not peerless, rich and detailed with outstanding dynamic capability.  Ironically, perhaps, I find the M3's presentation more "natural" when using the GanFet SS amps than with my 845 tube amps.  In fact, it seems I'm no longer invoking the "presence," "bloom," or "vivid" comparators so often heard when comparing tubes to SS. The M3's Peerless tweet has never sounded so natural... Not a hint of sharp, edgy, glaring or even elevated....  Perhaps a combination of amp topology and toe-in might ameliorate the worst of it...

jjss49

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #31 on: 31 Oct 2022, 03:46 pm »
catluck

just want to distinguish and clarify -- is your commentary re the peerless tweeter referring to the older m3 models or the m3 sapphire?  i understand the tweeters are different for the sapphire model

i had actually heard older m3's (forget if they were the turbo or triode model) in a fellow hifi bud's home -- those were very natural sounding, even a little rolled off up top, to my ear... and they driven by a first watt ss amp btw

my experience was with a brand new pair of m3 sapphires, bought new from clayton, broken in over many months, changed to dark, darker, darkest (ss) amps, same with cables, he sent me in line resistors to further attempt to attenuate... and through all that, as much as i tried given my great personal liking of clayton, i just could not make peace and find happiness with the treble presentation

once again, just my own experience, there are scores of happy m3 sapphire owners out there that remain tickled pink by the sound... entirely my loss...

catluck

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #32 on: 31 Oct 2022, 04:17 pm »
catluck

just want to distinguish and clarify -- is your commentary re the peerless tweeter referring to the older m3 models or the m3 sapphire?  i understand the tweeters are different for the sapphire model

i had actually heard older m3's (forget if they were the turbo or triode model) in a fellow hifi bud's home -- those were very natural sounding, even a little rolled off up top, to my ear... and they driven by a first watt ss amp btw

my experience was with a brand new pair of m3 sapphires, bought new from clayton, broken in over many months, changed to dark, darker, darkest (ss) amps, same with cables, he sent me in line resistors to further attempt to attenuate... and through all that, as much as i tried given my great personal liking of clayton, i just could not make peace and find happiness with the treble presentation

once again, just my own experience, there are scores of happy m3 sapphire owners out there that remain tickled pink by the sound... entirely my loss...


JJSS - I get it and I don't, for a second, doubt your subjective evaluation.  I am using the new Sapphire M3's.  I totally respect your experience.  The fact that you find the Peerless bright or simply not enjoyable is completely understandable.  I was simply thinking out loud because, previously, I've tamed seemingly aggressive tweets with a combo of toe-in and amp change.  In the end, all I care about is that you find your "desert island" system.  I know how much music means to those of us on this thread.  We're all just slouching towards Bethlehem.... Wishing you the very best...

Tyson

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #33 on: 31 Oct 2022, 04:41 pm »

JJSS - I get it and I don't, for a second, doubt your subjective evaluation.  I am using the new Sapphire M3's.  I totally respect your experience.  The fact that you find the Peerless bright or simply not enjoyable is completely understandable.  I was simply thinking out loud because, previously, I've tamed seemingly aggressive tweets with a combo of toe-in and amp change.  In the end, all I care about is that you find your "desert island" system.  I know how much music means to those of us on this thread.  We're all just slouching towards Bethlehem.... Wishing you the very best...

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Mr. Big

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #34 on: 31 Oct 2022, 04:43 pm »
I am listening to Billie Holliday and the sound is in-room, warm and sweet of that ERA and that is how it should be if the speakers were bright it is easy to hear by the way, I am coming from Quad ESL 63's so If these were bright they are long gone. I can get them bright with the wrong cables and power cords can break a system. In my experience, these speakers give you only what you feed them from your system and amp. I use them with the spikes off and now on the front only, the back spike is useless and cannot pentrate my carpet and pad due to how short they are, sound better without them on the back anyway.  I also say try them with just the front feet on was spikes, to see how they work on the floor you are using, toe-in makes a bib impact on brightness also and every room is different, but try toeing them in to the tweeter hits your intter should next area, and listen for brightness or if it improved, then slowly take them out 1/4" at a time and listen the speaker with either improve or start getting brighter, once you find the ideal spot to your ear, take them out 1/4" more and see if you lose the sound you liked if so go back to what you had them and for you room they are good to go, also I found you have to get the speaker to work with the size of your room, I had to pull mine in close than one might think would be correct buy my loft is 122" only I had them wider apart, but one day I moved each in 3" and wow they locked into the room and imaging and center fill improved and any brightness was gone, so you really have to play with this speaker or any speaker, my Quads were hard to lock in and one day I toed them out 1/2" and the sound just exploded with dyanamcis, tone and color, and I had them 1-year at that point so it takes time to "learn" what makes them tick. My Quads could sound like a transistor radio with wrong setup or adding spikes under them.

jnschneyer

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #35 on: 31 Oct 2022, 08:20 pm »
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;

Except maybe with a little toe-in and some room treatment.

Daryl Zero

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #36 on: 31 Oct 2022, 08:42 pm »
Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.

Tyson

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #37 on: 31 Oct 2022, 08:43 pm »
:lol:

jnschneyer

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #38 on: 31 Oct 2022, 10:00 pm »
Wow! A bit too much treble and suddenly, apocalypse.

Treble in mind, brother, treble in mind.

DaveWin88

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Re: Spatial Audio Open Box Speakers Bright?
« Reply #39 on: 1 Nov 2022, 01:02 am »
One thing to keep in mind guys is that having great extended highs, their is no other option :) Having a rolled off top end is called a transistor radio. Once you get a taste, you can never go back. So be careful trying to go hard the other way.