[Sonicjoy]

I disagree with #1.

1) The lower midrange will be close to the top panel of the OB sub, "boxing" in that midrange a bit in the rear causing undesirable reflections and cavity resonances for that midrange driver.

As I noted earlier, the example of the MTM version has it's bottom panel in about the same location as it would be in this case. Now it may be that an adjustment has been made to the network to compensate, I don't know but I would think it would be a minor adjustment if anything.

The other two I don't know enough about open baffle sub design to offer much on those topics.


My original idea for this thread was to keep as close to the original designs of the NX-Otica's and dual H-frame servo-sub woofers while combining them.

I still have not heard anything that convinces me that it won't work just fine.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

My thoughts exactly for #1 it just seems kind of a moot point if the MTMs exist..

I know OB subs put out sounds in a Figure-8 sort of shape, so it makes sense, but i don't know how true that holds with side-wall reflections in a smaller room?

But yeah that's the basic goal I was trying to maintain with most of the sketches. Cuz its a fairly simple, proven design.
Sure, the inverted Otica on a standard H-Frame is still more simple than anything else I put forth, but also isn't nearly as "elegant".

But without building it out & testing directly, it'll be hard to tell for sure. 
If only i had the time, money and tools.

[AKLegal]

After seeing these designs I remembered this old gem. I still have hope that this design will see the light of day - it just looks cool. 

The top model is an all open baffle line source using the same drivers.

There is a front and rear baffle. In between the two baffles is a wedge shaped panel that faces the front drivers. This panel will also be foam coated with No Rez. This panel will deflect and absorb some of the rear wave of the front panel drivers and keep them from directly reflecting off of the servo subs on the rear panel.

I think the rest is pretty self explanatory from the pics.













Yes, these will not be cheap, but then again, what will top them?

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Well, Damn...
That's one way to solve the issue!
Its way outside of our intended ideas, but its definitely inspirational to see the pinnacle of the Serenity Lineforce..

Guess i.ve got more material to draw from now, cuz that's gives me some ideas....
Thanks for sharing!

[Danny Richie]

After seeing these designs I remembered this old gem. I still have hope that this design will see the light of day - it just looks cool.

That was a great design concept, but the Neo drivers really needed a side wing to help separate the front and back waves and flatten out the low end response.

It would have required some custom Neo 10 drivers to make it work as well.

[Danny Richie]

And I thought I'd let you guys run with this one and have a little fun with it without me poo pooing any of the ideas.

I go through this with every design I do.

On this one though the real truth is that once you slam the dual servo subs up under them then you don't really need the rest of those mid-bass drivers. Just the MTM on top works fine.

[mlundy57]

And I thought I'd let you guys run with this one and have a little fun with it without me poo pooing any of the ideas.

I go through this with every design I do.

On this one though the real truth is that once you slam the dual servo subs up under them then you don't really need the rest of those mid-bass drivers. Just the MTM on top works fine.

And Baby Bear, as I call the MTM/dual sub combo, is really fine.

My light hearted reference for the NX series of OB speakers: NX-Treme/triple subs = Papa Bear, NX-Oticas/triple subs = Mama Bear, and NX-Otica MTM/dual sub combo = Baby Bear.

Three different models for three different sets of circumstances.

Mike

[Captainhemo]

Super Bear ?   



jay

[Sonicjoy]

Thanks for finally chiming in Danny! I figured you were waiting see where this would go. 

And it has been fun playing with ideas.

Question: If what you say is true about the MTM/servo sub combo then why build the NX-Otica or NX-Tremes with separate subs? Those extra bass drivers must bring something more to the table? They must bring a bit more upper bass dynamic punch I would think.
 
The whole point of this thread is to try to bring maximum performance with your top of the line speakers while catering to those with floor space issues.

I'm new to your designs and am still trying to get up to speed here. Really enjoying the education!

Thanks again!

[mlundy57]

Super Bear ?   



jay

[RonP]

And Baby Bear, as I call the MTM/dual sub combo, is really fine.

Mike

how does "Baby Bear" compare to the Wedge + dual sub combo? Waiting for those LGKs to come back in stock.

[Early B.]

Question: If what you say is true about the MTM/servo sub combo then why build the NX-Otica or NX-Tremes with separate subs?

I'd love to hear Danny's response to this question and learn from it, as well.

[Captainhemo]

The wedgies will have a slight  edge in imaging but, they'll give  up some  "body"   to the NX-MTM's due to the   two 6.5"  M165NQ's.    The NQ's do vocals  very  well....
Mike  has both and am pretty sure,  the  NX-MTM's are his go to   now,  especially  in a  bit larger  room

jay

[mlundy57]

Mike

how does "Baby Bear" compare to the Wedge + dual sub combo? Waiting for those LGKs to come back in stock.

Ron,

The NX-Otica MTM has more weight and body in the midrange than the Wedgies but the Wedgies image a little better. However, if the room is small like mine, The MTMs can have a cavernous sound without some room treatment. Diffusion centered behind the speakers and at first reflection points solved this issue in my room.

If you have a smaller room, especially if you can't do much room treatment, the Wedgies would be the better choice. If your room is larger and/or you can do room treatment, you will probably like the MTMs better. However, that's not always the case. While most people who have listened to both at my house prefer the MTMs, some prefer the Wedgies.

As a general rule of thumb, I think the majority of preferences would follow this line: small room without diffusion - Wedgies / small room with diffusion - either Wedgies or MTMs depending on whether midrange weight or imaging is more important (Wedgies if imagining / MTMs if midrange) / large small room or small medium sized room - MTMs / larger meduim sized room and up - NX-Otica with triple/quad subs or, if the ceiling is high enough, NX-Tremes with triple/quad subs.

Mike

[mlundy57]

The wedgies will have a slight  edge in imaging but, they'll give  up some  "body"   to the NX-MTM's due to the   two 6.5"  M165NQ's.    The NQ's do vocals  very  well....
Mike  has both and am pretty sure,  the  NX-MTM's are his go to   now,  especially  in a  bit larger  room

jay

Jay is spot on. 

[ebag4]

Jay is spot on. 

+1, my experience as well.

Best,
Ed

[Jonathon Janusz]

Question: If what you say is true about the MTM/servo sub combo then why build the NX-Otica or NX-Tremes with separate subs? Those extra bass drivers must bring something more to the table? They must bring a bit more upper bass dynamic punch I would think.

Aside from subtle differences between the presentation and maybe tonal character of the music from 200Hz to 60Hz-ish (or lower on the NX-tremes) between the M165 and the servo sub drivers discussed above, the handoff frequency point between the servo subs and the main speakers is a key differentiator in going one way or the other for another I'd think more straightforward reason. 

Because the floor standers play lower in frequency, it is arguably easier to integrate the servo subs because the necessary crossover frequency is lower - the perceptional transition between drivers may be more easily made less noticeable and one (given the space) could better place the subs for optimal bass response like more traditional subwoofers rather than woofers as part of a 3-way full-range floorstanding speaker.  Because the MTM alone can't play as low, the servo subs all but have to be located as close to the MTM as possible because the servo subs are playing high up enough that if they were separated it would be significantly more noticeable.

Sure, if one could plop the NX floor standers on top of the servo subs, there is no reason one couldn't still cross over to the subs down low if one was after the presentation below 200Hz of the M165 rather than the servo subs.  In this case, one would be optimizing placement of the subs simply to accommodate space in the room (the point of this thread) rather than optimizing the placement of the subs for sound (not necessarily mutually exclusive, but very room dependent). 

Also, I'd think that having the subs away from the mains reduces the possible effects of vibrations from the subs making their way to coloring the sound of the mains, which obviously is not possible with the MTM if the MTM is attached to or uses the servo sub cabinet as a stand.  Granted this bit is very much splitting hairs, but I suppose when trying to discuss the very bleeding edge of performance, that's where the conversation lives.

Asking Danny more directly: although you said above that the MTM is fine and you don't really need the extra midrange drivers if stacking on top of the subs, would flipping the NX-Otica upside down on top of the servo cabinets work (need aside), or would having the extra baffle full of drivers sticking up above the MTM (and likely the lower M165 driver baffle not coupled to the floor) cause a problem with the speaker as designed because the crossover (maybe even the wings) would have to be redesigned to account for the new/different baffle arrangement?  Experience being my teacher, I'd guess that answer is yes, but best to hear it straight from the designer than keep going around in circles guessing. 

[Hobbsmeerkat]

And I thought I'd let you guys run with this one and have a little fun with it without me poo pooing any of the ideas.

I go through this with every design I do.

Hah! Honestly, I'd feel honored, esp cuz it means I'd be learning something! 

But I'm always open to ideas, suggestions or corrections.

[RonP]

Ron,

The NX-Otica MTM has more weight and body in the midrange than the Wedgies but the Wedgies image a little better. However, if the room is small like mine, The MTMs can have a cavernous sound without some room treatment. Diffusion centered behind the speakers and at first reflection points solved this issue in my room.

...

Mike

Thanks Mike/All!

That's good to know. Sounds like I'll keep my interest in the LGK's more towards my PC speakers and potential Sonos speaker replacements.

[Chops]

On this one though the real truth is that once you slam the dual servo subs up under them then you don't really need the rest of those mid-bass drivers. Just the MTM on top works fine.

Touching on my comment in my X-Statik thread that was quoted here in this thread... Whether I'm right or wrong about the lower mid-bass driver being affected by the large flat top panel of the OB sub or not, I don't know. Maybe if there is any odd reflections or resonances there, they can be mitigated with a sheet of No-Rez. I figured that's why Danny designed the X-Static and his OB 5's and OB 7's with the slanted top panel on the bass enclosures, to reduce or eliminate any interference with the rear wave of the lower mid-bass driver.

Also, again, I could be right or wrong on this as well, but even though everyone who's heard the MTM/sub combo said they sound excellent (which I'm sure they do), I still can't help but think something is being given up in that 200 Hz crossover region. With the MTM section only playing down to 200 Hz, and asking 12" drivers to play up to 200 Hz. Servo controlled or not, I can't help but think that they still don't offer the kind of clarity, dynamics and impact that a line of dedicated 6.5" woofers would. Not to mention, the tonal balance between those 12" drivers and the 6.5" drivers have to be somewhat different as well.

I mean, there's got to be a reason why Danny created the NX-Otica and NX-Treme rather than just creating the MTM, throwing them on the subs and leaving it at that.