AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Spatial Audio => Topic started by: Tangram on 3 May 2021, 03:16 pm
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Based on what I've read, many Spatial owners prefer tube amps. What thoughts do people have on Class A SS? I have a Pass Labs XA30.5 that I plan on using with the M3S.
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I prefer ss amps with my M3 Sapphires. I use tubes up the chain. I have First Watt F5 and F6, also Devialet, Hegel H20 and AudioSector Patek. All are outstanding, with subtly different presentations. I have used tube amps as well, they do sweeten up the sound but give up bass control... LTA. Carver and ARC work well, with better bass control among tube amps. The speakers are tremendous at realistic bass reproduction, and coming from other speakers, tube amps driving the M3S may well please many listeners with the bass quality, but for the best sound, I feel top flight ss is preferable, with tubes further up the chain. Depends on what you prioritize.
Cheers.
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I have tried a few First Watts and Pass Labs and posted my impressions in the Spatial and First Watt thread. There is more feedback from others there as well. That being said I am now using my M3S with a Gryphon Diablo 120 or Elekit TU-8600S and both thoroughly beat the the Class A amps mention below.
I have had my Spatial M3 about a year now. In the last 6 months I have had various First Watt and Pass Labs, including, F7, SIT-3, 30.8, and XA25. These are being fed by either a McIntosh C2600 or a Pass Labs XP-12. They all sound slightly different and each have their pros and cons. They are more similar than different IMO. The 30.8 has the most low end grunt, bass was plentiful with excellent texturing. It was also the most laid back and threw the widest and deepest soundstage. The XA25 was the most neutral of the bunch, bass was equivalent to the First Watts but it cannot keep up with its bigger brother. The F7 is the best bang for your buck here, and never put a foot wrong. It is engaging and liquid, good bass control, but runs hot, I have a temperature gun and the heatsinks were hotter than the other three by 10 degrees F. The 30.8 may dissipate more heat since it has more heat sink surface area but the F7 was the only one that was hot to the touch. The SIT-3 just adds even more liquidity and losses a little bit of bass control. The First Watts sound very intimate. They make you feel like you are closer to the performance. My favorites are the 30.8 and SIT-3. I only have the SIT-3 now and have sold the other 3. I would be happy with any of the 4 amps.
In short, 30.8 would be best if you need the headroom and power, due to large room or loud listening levels. SIT-3 if you want the sweetest and most liquid presentation this side of tubes, and are OK with the lowest power output here and the lowest gain. F7 if budget is a concern, it is can be had for about half the price of the SIT on the used market. This may seem harsh but IMO the XA25 is the most ordinary of the four and I would only recommend it if you like the First Watt/Pass Labs Class A sound but need more headroom than the First Watts provide and don't want to or spend the extra on the 30.8.
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Thanks for the feedback. I have a tube preamp and phono stage in my all-analog system.
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not sure if loki has original m3 or m3 sapphires... they are different speakers with different drivers and crossovers
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I have M3 Sapphires.
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Based on what I've read, many Spatial owners prefer tube amps. What thoughts do people have on Class A SS? I have a Pass Labs XA30.5 that I plan on using with the M3S.
I believe Clayton has used an XA30.8 for quite some time, as a fine example of a SS amp. DAC Cherries as well.
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+1 for the DAC Cherry Amps. I have the King Inline Mono Maraschinos. No desire to change in the foreseeable future.
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I heard the X5 with the excellent Coda CSIB integrated amp . It comes with 3 options in power
He has the V1 option first 18 1st watts in pre class A , and doubles down into 2 ohms 150,300,600
I like this better then the Pass labs 60 int it’s cleaner sounding liMO nothing under $10 k can touch it .
http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/coda-csib-integrated-by-richard-willie/
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I use a McIntosh MC 402 to great effect with my M3's. Bass can shake the room, full midrange, and extended highs. The big thing on M3's is toe-in and playing with distance from the front wall, and be opened minded about that, they can go closer than many state based on one's room, so play with the speaker and learn them.
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Clayton any feedback on how the Pass XA 30.8 watt works with the M3's. I have been looking at that amp lately. Only 30 watts but class A, with lots of current.
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I own the Lumina 2. And, I have used the following amps: nCore, Pass Labs XA 25, Esoteric A-100 and LTA ZOTL Reference 40. The two that I kept are the Esoteric and the LTA. Both are great and I am fortunate that I can switch between them based on what I am wanting. The Estoteric gives more of the tube magic (density and 3d imaging), whereas the LTA has extremely low noise floor, better definition and a holographic quality. The XA25 is very, very good and I could easily live with it. The XA25 does nothing wrong. But the two tube amps simply sound more pleasing to me.
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Good is good SS or tubed. Which is better depends on system not just amp. Hi Clayton.
charles
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Perhaps an unpopular position but I've been using Hypex (Bel Canto eRef 600's) amplification to break in the Sapphires and I have to say, I'm ravished by the beautiful tone/timbre. Bass is exceptional. Yes, I plan to transition to Psvane 845 mono's sitting just behind the Sapph's (50 watts -Class A) but while I'm breaking in the Sapph's, I cannot complain about the rich, dense tone and exceptional texture. I'm all tubes upstairs (Manley Neo-Classic 300B's, Granite Audio 864's (KT-88's) and Hartung OTL (6C33's)) so it's fair to say that I have a sense of tube sound. So to those with Class D kit, don't be hesitant to try it. And, remember, Clayton used to show with Red Dragon. I'm so enthralled by these new Sapph's that, well..., perhaps I'm having difficulty finding any fault. What a terrible state to be in!
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Perhaps an unpopular position but I've been using Hypex (Bel Canto eRef 600's) amplification to break in the Sapphires and I have to say, I'm ravished by the beautiful tone/timbre. Bass is exceptional. Yes, I plan to transition to Psvane 845 mono's sitting just behind the Sapph's (50 watts -Class A) but while I'm breaking in the Sapph's, I cannot complain about the rich, dense tone and exceptional texture. I'm all tubes upstairs (Manley Neo-Classic 300B's, Granite Audio 864's (KT-88's) and Hartung OTL (6C33's)) so it's fair to say that I have a sense of tube sound. So to those with Class D kit, don't be hesitant to try it. And, remember, Clayton used to show with Red Dragon. I'm so enthralled by these new Sapph's that, well..., perhaps I'm having difficulty finding any fault. What a terrible state to be in!
Agreed, I am a tube lover but the heat here prohibits tubes at the moment, so I have been very happy with the Digital Audio Company 2 Cherry and now i have upgraded to the Megaschino and combined with a tube pre-amp is a wonderful combo.
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Clayton any feedback on how the Pass XA 30.8 watt works with the M3's. I have been looking at that amp lately. Only 30 watts but class A, with lots of current.
The Pass XA 30.8 is outstanding with both our M3 and X Series models. Runs very hot however.
Clayton
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While my Pass XA-30.8 does a great job with my M5 Sapphires
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224865)
, I'm on the hunt for something a bit better. I tried both the Merrill Element 116 and AGD Audion Gallium Nitride monoblock amplifiers (a new way to implement class D) with great success - improved clarity, dynamics, bass control and three-dimensionality. They are pricey though. And I'm wanting to at least try some tubes. I've looked into LTA a bit, but am wondering if anyone has tried the Decware Zen in monoblock configuration at about 8 wpc which is below the recommended power?
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I have the M3 Sapphires and went with OCTAVE V70 Class A w/ SBB
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=223799)
Just Stunning!
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While my Pass XA-30.8 does a great job with my M5 Sapphires
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224865)
, I'm on the hunt for something a bit better. I tried both the Merrill Element 116 and AGD Audion Gallium Nitride monoblock amplifiers (a new way to implement class D) with great success - improved clarity, dynamics, bass control and three-dimensionality. They are pricey though. And I'm wanting to at least try some tubes. I've looked into LTA a bit, but am wondering if anyone has tried the Decware Zen in monoblock configuration at about 8 wpc which is below the recommended power?
Why not get the top line Spatials if you were/are considering such pricey gear? Merrill is what $24k?
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While my Pass XA-30.8 does a great job with my M5 Sapphires
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=224865)
, I'm on the hunt for something a bit better. I tried both the Merrill Element 116 and AGD Audion Gallium Nitride monoblock amplifiers (a new way to implement class D) with great success - improved clarity, dynamics, bass control and three-dimensionality. They are pricey though. And I'm wanting to at least try some tubes. I've looked into LTA a bit, but am wondering if anyone has tried the Decware Zen in monoblock configuration at about 8 wpc which is below the recommended power?
Decware Zen won't be better than your XA30.8 in overall sound quality, plus only 8 wpc definitely won't give you the dynamics and control you seem to be seeking. Yes, Spatials are sensitive, but this does not make them necessarily an easy load. As you found, they respond to power. Maybe look at something from Rogue, like the Stereo 100 if you want a tube amp with power and control without breaking the bank.
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All, thanks for the replies! I'm not familiar with Octave products, will check 'em out. Yes, the Merrill's are out of my price range - Merrill sent a pair of his Element 116s to our club (San Francisco Audiophile Society) to try out - they are amazing. Two folks in our club bought pairs of the 116s. (We also had Clayton on one of our Zoom events which was awesome). The M5 Sapphires replaced and outclassed a much more expensive pair of speakers and I haven't looked back - they do most everything very well. I have a bigger listening room now, so I kinda wish I had the M3s, but I have a nice sub that blends well, so it's not a priority.
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All, thanks for the replies! I'm not familiar with Octave products, will check 'em out. Yes, the Merrill's are out of my price range - Merrill sent a pair of his Element 116s to our club (San Francisco Audiophile Society) to try out - they are amazing. Two folks in our club bought pairs of the 116s. (We also had Clayton on one of our Zoom events which was awesome). The M5 Sapphires replaced and outclassed a much more expensive pair of speakers and I haven't looked back - they do most everything very well. I have a bigger listening room now, so I kinda wish I had the M3s, but I have a nice sub that blends well, so it's not a priority.
lcd,
I was not familiar with Octave either. I was initally leaning towards the Raven line but was not enamoured with the return policy and not getting the feeling they would handle those big woofers. I had a dealer close to me that allowed me to demo the V40se which opened my eyes. I would of kept it because it was so good but wanted to see what a class A amp would do. This was pricy for me but I can say at least on the amp side I am done. The thing about the Octave line is that it does not have a really "tubey" sound if that is what your after. You get amazing clarity, dynamics, soundstage and depth. It has the "omph" to drive anything really and depending on your room and tube choices many options for sound tweaking.
Good Luck.
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I have tried a few First Watts and Pass Labs and posted my impressions in the Spatial and First Watt thread. There is more feedback from others there as well. That being said I am now using my M3S with a Gryphon Diablo 120 or Elekit TU-8600S and both thoroughly beat the the Class A amps mention below.
loki7177, Do you still have the Gryphon Diablo 120 paired with your M3S? I have the Luxman L-509x paired with my X5s. I like it, but was curious if the Diablo 120 would outperform the Luxman?
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loki7177, Do you still have the Gryphon Diablo 120 paired with your M3S? I have the Luxman L-509x paired with my X5s. I like it, but was curious if the Diablo 120 would outperform the Luxman?
How can anyone tell you if one amp can beat your current one? You have to have them both in your room and in your system. I think with Audiophiles what we own will beat anything until we buy something newer...LOL! The curse of Audio hobby. But to be serious in 40 years I have learned one thing when you own something that is really good you hit the home run, after that, you change the spice and flavor of your system. If you want to change the sound of your system and much cheaper way is by changing the power cords. Sometimes it is good to stop worrying about something being better and just enjoy the wonderful system you have put together and all of us for that matter, it is very easy to kill the enjoyment of this hobby and burn out. I've known many who have and sold everything and are not out of the hobby, and few it was good for their health, they were obsessive over every little thing and always if something was better than what they owned. Then there were my tube roller friends, they lost it also had more tubes with the cost more than the amps and preamps combined. Then they never liked any of them 100%, they always wanted something that one set could do compared to the other set, told them you need to go to solid-state and be done with this insanity. LOL!
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How can anyone tell you if one amp can beat your current one? You have to have them both in your room and in your system. I think with Audiophiles what we own will beat anything until we buy something newer...LOL! The curse of Audio hobby. But to be serious in 40 years I have learned one thing when you own something that is really good you hit the home run, after that, you change the spice and flavor of your system. If you want to change the sound of your system and much cheaper way is by changing the power cords. Sometimes it is good to stop worrying about something being better and just enjoy the wonderful system you have put together and all of us for that matter, it is very easy to kill the enjoyment of this hobby and burn out. I've known many who have and sold everything and are not out of the hobby, and few it was good for their health, they were obsessive over every little thing and always if something was better than what they owned. Then there were my tube roller friends, they lost it also had more tubes with the cost more than the amps and preamps combined. Then they never liked any of them 100%, they always wanted something that one set could do compared to the other set, told them you need to go to solid-state and be done with this insanity. LOL!
You are so right. This is why I stopped selling my current amp to fund new purchases. I just save up a bit longer to buy a new amp and still keep my old amp(s). This lets me 'amp roll' to my heart's content. I've got a bunch of different tube amps and even a couple different SS amps and I just put in whatever I am feeling like that week. It's more expensive up front, but it saves me money in the long run....
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How can anyone tell you if one amp can beat your current one? You have to have them both in your room and in your system. I think with Audiophiles what we own will beat anything until we buy something newer...LOL! The curse of Audio hobby. But to be serious in 40 years I have learned one thing when you own something that is really good you hit the home run, after that, you change the spice and flavor of your system.
I agree with you 100% concerning the latter part of the question I posed. I should have phrased my question differently. I really want to know if he ever compared my Luxman with his Gryphon. I know I still would need to hear any component in my setup to compare for myself. We all ask questions in forums because we want to get opinions because it’s hard to obtain a product for auditioning unless we buy it. The two integrated amps I am most interested in is my current Luxman and Gryphon. I would like to hear a Gryphon integrated and get impressions from a Gryphon owner who has paired it with Spatials. I could live with the Luxman, for sure, but I would like to settle my curiosity between the two brands.
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You are so right. This is why I stopped selling my current amp to fund new purchases. I just save up a bit longer to buy a new amp and still keep my old amp(s). This lets me 'amp roll' to my heart's content. I've got a bunch of different tube amps and even a couple different SS amps and I just put in whatever I am feeling like that week. It's more expensive up front, but it saves me money in the long run....
Amp rolling??? Geez, Tyson -- if audiophilia was a disease, you'd be one breath from death. :lol:
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Amp rolling??? Geez, Tyson -- if audiophilia was a disease, you'd be one breath from death. :lol:
That's what I was thinking too. Plus he needs to build a new wing for his house, the vintage amp wing.
Tyson, I'm happy to work as your amp butler showing the guests around the amp wing and describing the age, type and sound of each amp.
I'll work for tubes.
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That's what I was thinking too. Plus he needs to build a new wing for his house, the vintage amp wing.
Tyson, I'm happy to work as your amp butler showing the guests around the amp wing and describing the age, type and sound of each amp.
I'll work for tubes.
Hilarious!!
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That's what I was thinking too. Plus he needs to build a new wing for his house, the vintage amp wing.
Tyson, I'm happy to work as your amp butler showing the guests around the amp wing and describing the age, type and sound of each amp.
I'll work for tubes.
You jest, but I do have all my extra amps on display in a spare room downstairs.... Hahaha.
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Amp rolling??? Geez, Tyson -- if audiophilia was a disease, you'd be one breath from death. :lol:
Why not? I have 10 different amps I cycle through? :D
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morganc makes an interesting comment about something I've been thinking about. I recently moved to SW Florida. Obviously, the heat and an humidity are oppressive. Is a class A amp practical given the heat the amp produces? Don't think it would have an affect on sound just the electrical bill and comfort. Or, is this a stupid question? :D
Agreed, I am a tube lover but the heat here prohibits tubes at the moment, so I have been very happy with the Digital Audio Company 2 Cherry and now i have upgraded to the Megaschino and combined with a tube pre-amp is a wonderful combo.
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lcd,
I was not familiar with Octave either. I was initally leaning towards the Raven line but was not enamoured with the return policy and not getting the feeling they would handle those big woofers. I had a dealer close to me that allowed me to demo the V40se which opened my eyes. I would of kept it because it was so good but wanted to see what a class A amp would do. This was pricy for me but I can say at least on the amp side I am done. The thing about the Octave line is that it does not have a really "tubey" sound if that is what your after. You get amazing clarity, dynamics, soundstage and depth. It has the "omph" to drive anything really and depending on your room and tube choices many options for sound tweaking.
Good Luck.
I saw Ravens videos and I beware of them, any company that slams others and make claims not founded in fact is a company I stay away from, also, you have to look at the resale value on gear you buy, one day you will sell it, unless it is your last system.
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You are so right. This is why I stopped selling my current amp to fund new purchases. I just save up a bit longer to buy a new amp and still keep my old amp(s). This lets me 'amp roll' to my heart's content. I've got a bunch of different tube amps and even a couple different SS amps and I just put in whatever I am feeling like that week. It's more expensive up front, but it saves me money in the long run....
Yeah. Why not. People collect all kinds of stuff. I bought a motorcycle awhile back and immediately started fussing over selling the one I had, which I liked. My wife told me to keep both :o because she didn't want to listen to me B&M about wishing I still had the old one. Over the next eighteen months, before selling both, I put almost exactly the same number of miles on each. Different stuff for different moods. I suppose audio isn't any different.
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One great SS amp and one great tube amp will cover most needs for most people, IMO.
My amps got out of hand because I have 2 different speakers and they are both 97db efficient, which opened up the very cool world of single ended amps.