AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: wilbur_the_goose on 5 Mar 2021, 02:14 am
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Should I use spikes for a Song3 BeAT placed on a concrete floor with berber carpeting?
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I would say no... but I don’t use spikes on carpet, period.
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spikes just need to get to the solid underfloor for proper grounding, whatever the carpet
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I have exactly the same Carpet over Concrete and have found that using a Maple Cutting Board Plinth
Floating over carpet and speakers spiked to the Plinth works best. I found spiking speakers to the Concrete created more Grainy sound. Much better with Maple Plinth between speakers and Carpet/Concrete.
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@thorman - where did you get your maple cutting board plinth?
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I would say no... but I don’t use spikes on carpet, period.
You do not use the spikes for the plinth that come with Salk speakers on carpeting? I have wood floors underneath my carpeting and I was thinking of trying isoacoustics GAIA's with carpet spikes.
Can you explain in greater detail?
Thanks.
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I have that flooring as well.
My first response is that experimenting is the only way you'll ever know.
But, after much experimenting, including spikes, I came up wit a diy solution that is very cheap and very effective. It also looks good.
I made mine out of cement but you could use thick wood to make a base. Make the base the exact same size as your speakers. Mine are rectangular , so it was pretty easy for me. Then put four furniture sliders in the four corners underneath the base. Put another four furniture sliders on top of the base and those will couple with the speakers. If you want to get fancy and spend some more money get 4 Herbies Isolation Dots for the speaker coupling.
I painted the sliders black so they are essentially invisible and it created a "floating" look which goes well with a mid-century aesthetic.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=221580) (https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=221581) .
Like I said, experimenting is the way to go but my method is definitely worth a try as it's only about $50 worth of materials.
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I quit using spikes through carpet to concrete slab years ago. my speakers stands are heavy enough with sand and the speakers sit on them with blu tack on the corners.
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I use Gaia's on laminated floor. Chose laminated on purpose for the room having great experiences with Gaia's.
Isolate the speaker, don't spike it, would be my recommendation. Of course, not all of us can have our gear in a non-carpeted room. So with carpeting, I'd go the heavy plinth on the carpet and then isolating feet like Thorman mentions as next best approach.
Once you go with isolators and hear the improvement, spikes will be history.
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I needed more height with these speakers so used a plinth made from MDF. The plinth is spiked to concrete through the berber and the speaker spikes are resting in floor protectors. I tried GAIAs but felt the bass suffered quite a bit.
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You need to decide first if your speakers need to be coupled to the floor or isolated from it. In my experience, spikes are great for coupling and bad for isolation.
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I purchased the Maple Blocks from Butcher Block Acoustics...Very reasonably priced and great quality with a few options too.
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Hi Wilbur, all the spikes at Parts Express come with a little dime size footing to protect your rug. They have a little dimple or hole to prevent any movement in the center. I tried to cut and paste but it didn't work. Go to Parts Express and then (spikes) and you'll get the picture. I like the maple idea too ! If the theory is the spikes must touch wooden flooring as a grunt whose ripped up lots of rugs, the point of the spike, if not moved around laterally as most subs wouldn't, would not be detectable and would also be around a wall most of the time......I use those Parts Express footings even though my rugs seen better days...Mark Korda
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i know a lot of people have used the gaia type isolators for speakers and say they work great... but i must admit i have a hard time with the concept...
seems to me it is about grounding the (dynamic) speaker to a solid footing surface so its drivers have as solid a platform to act from once a electrical drive signal is given representing the sound to be produced ... a good foundation is what provides a zero base to develop sound waves... anyhoo...
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"You do not use the spikes for the plinth that come with Salk speakers on carpeting? I have wood floors underneath my carpeting and I was thinking of trying isoacoustics GAIA's with carpet spikes.
Can you explain in greater detail?"
I just got my speakers yesterday, and I didn't install the spikes. My old speakers were spiked, and they were a royal pain to move.
I have no clue as to whether treatments (spikes or whatever) would make any positive difference on a concrete slab with short berber carpeting on top.
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Thanks, @Thorman
I found that company and liked what I saw. They're based in California, and ironically they say their products are made in Bally, PA - which is about 15 miles north of me.
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No problem ....I just measured the base of my Speakers and added 2" extra all around. My speakers are 12" x 12" ,so I ordered 16" square. This gives a 2" extra all around . Good Luck....
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"You do not use the spikes for the plinth that come with Salk speakers on carpeting? I have wood floors underneath my carpeting and I was thinking of trying isoacoustics GAIA's with carpet spikes.
Can you explain in greater detail?"
I just got my speakers yesterday, and I didn't install the spikes. My old speakers were spiked, and they were a royal pain to move.
I have no clue as to whether treatments (spikes or whatever) would make any positive difference on a concrete slab with short berber carpeting on top.
Not an expert, I can offer this; the cabinet is a resonating box. As stiff as any mfg'r makes their cabinets, they do resonate. BY spiking them, you are not necessarily draining that resonance but changing it based on the interaction of the spike, floor, and weight of the cabinet. Now I'm 100% confident Jim doesn't design the cabinets hanging by cables if you're headed there. :wink: I always used Jim's spikes on all 6 of the 7 pairs of Salk's I owned. I ended up with Gaia's on the Exoticas after I started with the solid copper feet and then on the Wilsons and really liked how they cleaned up the bass. The Wilsons weigh about 200 lbs each so that changes things. The Exoticas were heavy, and mine were more so with my steel plinths. YMMV I'll never have a carpeted floor again under my stereos because I'm sold on the Gaia concept (they don't glide btw, they stick to the floor. Almost like suction cups.)
Funny story: I took a left speaker to Jim twice because it kept buzzing. He couldn't find anything wrong with the speaker. Turned out the spikes were not quite all touching evenly and when I cranked her up a skosh, the spike would buzz on the floor. It was not touching on all 4 points (my bad). So something to spend a little more time on, especially with carpet, pad, and concrete. I was going direct to a laminate floor.
If you have carpet then use the spikes if you don't want to mess with an interim plate. The speaker is not going to sound 100% different either way. That's a fine tuning thing you can always do later. Spike them and play them. Get to know them before tweaking.
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Thanks to all!
Looks like I need to do some more research on coupling v isolating. But for now, my Salks are on their plinths and sound wonderful
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while i can understand there are cabinet resonances and damping footers can minimize them, it also seems that in doing so, it makes the physical grounding squishy instead of solid, so bass and transient response must become compromised as a result... i know everything has inherent tradeoffs... i suppose that would be the argument here
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You need to decide first if your speakers need to be coupled to the floor or isolated from it. In my experience, spikes are great for coupling and bad for isolation.
^^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^^^^^
100% agree with Craig. You really need to see what your speaker/room wants and it's so easy and cheap to try to decouple or couple and just listen. The internet can't tell you what works best for you, only listening yourself to both methods will tell you what works best for your setup.
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@thorman - where did you get your maple cutting board plinth?
https://timbernation.com/isolationplatforms_popup.html
I use a pair in dark cherry. Beautiful and effective. With Gaias on the speakers, no spikes underneath the platform. Sounds great.
People used to say that spikes through a carpet to a concrete floor made for "ringing" from the floor. If nothing else they can make a speaker sound excessively bright.
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https://timbernation.com/isolationplatforms_popup.html
I use a pair in dark cherry. Beautiful and effective. With Gaias on the speakers, no spikes underneath the platform. Sounds great.
People used to say that spikes through a carpet to a concrete floor made for "ringing" from the floor. If nothing else they can make a speaker sound excessively bright.
+1 for Timbernation and Gaias!
Have both and noticeable improvements. I just love my Timbernation rack. Chris is a perfectionist in his workmanship! Gaia’s on me M’3s are also very effective for me on hardwood floors but they offer spikes for carpeting too.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202737)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203075)
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+1 for Timbernation and Gaias!
Have both and noticeable improvements. I just love my Timbernation rack. Chris is a perfectionist in his workmanship! Gaia’s on me M’3s are also very effective for me on hardwood floors but they offer spikes for carpeting too.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202737)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=203075)
My room is carpeted so I have my speakers on the timbernation platforms. Those Gaias are great, and astonishing how they improve the sound of speakers. What I don't understand is how having the logos pointed in a certain direction (toward the front of the listener) can make a difference. That has me scratching my head.
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I ended up trying the Gaia II stands.
Holy ****. I doubted every review, but these are amazing.
Thanks for all your advice!
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Very interested in this topic. I'll be looking for a solution where I'll have my Encore's on a carpeted floor (frieze with padding).
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Very interested in this topic. I'll be looking for a solution where I'll have my Encore's on a carpeted floor (frieze with padding).
I’ll clarify why I don’t like spikes on carpet, since I also have the Encores. With the provided Salk spikes, I could not get the speakers to stand straight... they always listed to on side or another and were very difficult to position with the spikes on. I also like to move my Encores around and sans spikes, they are very easy to slide around. YMMV :thumb:
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@JDoyle - I confirmed to myself that it's not a good idea to leave the standard Salk plinth on the floor - you need something to get it up off the ground.
A good, inexpensive solution could be ice hockey pucks. I use pucks on my equipment to ensure equipment can breathe - that I have enough space between equipment.
2 or 3 hockey pucks in each corner of the plith could work for you. But Gaia shocked me in how well it worked. I purchased them with every intent of sending them back, but they're not going anywhere. I don't know how or why they work, but they do.
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I confirmed to myself that it's not a good idea to leave the standard Salk plinth on the floor - you need something to get it up off the ground.
Why?
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I’ll clarify why I don’t like spikes on carpet, since I also have the Encores. With the provided Salk spikes, I could not get the speakers to stand straight... they always listed to on side or another and were very difficult to position with the spikes on. I also like to move my Encores around and sans spikes, they are very easy to slide around. YMMV :thumb:
So what are sans spikes?
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So what are sans spikes?
sans /sanz/
prepositionLITERARY•HUMOROUS
without.
"flavorful vegetarian dishes sans meat, eggs, or milk"
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sans /sanz/
prepositionLITERARY•HUMOROUS
without.
"flavorful vegetarian dishes sans meat, eggs, or milk"
😂 I certainly read that incorrectly.
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Why are the plinths alone not good??
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(sans is a French word that means 'without')
@ermd1 - here's one person explaining why you shouldn't put your speakers on the floor: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pd8UK6SZ_s&t=69s
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@JDoyle - I confirmed to myself that it's not a good idea to leave the standard Salk plinth on the floor - you need something to get it up off the ground.
A good, inexpensive solution could be ice hockey pucks. I use pucks on my equipment to ensure equipment can breathe - that I have enough space between equipment.
2 or 3 hockey pucks in each corner of the plith could work for you. But Gaia shocked me in how well it worked. I purchased them with every intent of sending them back, but they're not going anywhere. I don't know how or why they work, but they do.
Is this what you mean by Gaia? https://www.crutchfield.com/S-SkNuhxB2nvk/p_892GAIA3/IsoAcoustics-GAIA-III.html?XVINQ=GLX&awkw=310303491794&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=183340671790&awdv=c&awug=9011859&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9dHWpOKp7wIViojICh2iMwP1EAQYASABEgJoC_D_BwE
If I tried to use Hockey Pucks as you mentioned, would it be best to add the spikes first, or just place the pucks under the flat base?
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My Spatial Audio X5 speakers are on a berber carpet on concrete. They are sitting on Gaia feet that are then on Gaia devices that are small round platforms with spikes. One this is all set up you will NOT be able to experiment with placement - just too difficult.
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@Jdoyle - Hockey pucks are cheap. I'd buy 16 - 8 per speaker and try them. Try them with and without spikes and go with whatever sounds better.
And, yes, those are the Gaia's in your URL. You choose the I, II, or III based on the weight of your speakers.
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Easy enough to give it a go... thx Wilbur T.G.! :thumb:
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Timbernation, I do like their racks, very solid I have one. Spikes, well I used spikes under my book shelf stands, which are filled with shot, holding 40 lbs Vapor Breeze speakers, ( heavy) siting on a 1/'2 thick wool rug. Well it worked great, until we rearranged the room and found that the spikes had put small holes in our tile. The wife was pissed. So I went to Herbies Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider and I really like the outcome and it saved our floor.
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Timbernation, I do like their racks, very solid I have one. Spikes, well I used spikes under my book shelf stands, which are filled with shot, holding 40 lbs Vapor Breeze speakers, ( heavy) siting on a 1/'2 thick wool rug. Well it worked great, until we rearranged the room and found that the spikes had put small holes in our tile. The wife was pissed. So I went to Herbies Cone/Spike Decoupling Glider and I really like the outcome and it saved our floor.
Saved the floor and your marriage :thumb:
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Saved the floor and your marriage :thumb:
Got that right as we earlier on that year had the new floor put in. .
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My Spatial Audio X5 speakers are on a berber carpet on concrete. They are sitting on Gaia feet that are then on Gaia devices that are small round platforms with spikes. One this is all set up you will NOT be able to experiment with placement - just too difficult.
@glynnw - did the Gaia carpet spikes have any impact on audio quality? I know the Gaia's certainly do, and my setup is the same as yours - berber over concreate - I'm trying to determine if audio benefits of the carpet spikes > the inability to move the speakers. Thanks!
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My SS8's are on carpet and are "required" to be near the wall during non-listening periods. I am wondering if is possible to slide speakers on carpet if using Gaia II's without spikes?
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One thing you could try is the ( 4" ) Furniture glides. Remove the Felt ( top side ) and replace with 3/8" Plywood ( with Glue ) then once cured you can Spike your speakers as Normal and slide the Glides in ( under spikes ) and spike the speakers to them. This works very well and you can slide them away at any time. Also very cheap. You can usually find the Glides at Walmart or Home Depot.
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Since we seem to be on “spike or not to spike” I’ll add this: I listened a lot both ways (Song 3). The last time I went back to no spikes it seemed that the midrange got fatter and sweeter. I have no idea how this could be but it’s all about how it sounds to me.
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@birbygad - what are you using under the plinth?
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Hey Wilbur. My Song 3s sit presently with their plinths on a a cheap Persian style rug over typical builder’s 12 by 12 tiles over plywood sub floor which is separated from the slab by about 1.5 feet of air and wood structure. It’s not planned (at all) but the room has a a funky warm vibe and sounds good.
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For what it's worth, I'm now using Gaia II's with the IsoAcoustics carpet spikes. Couldn't be happier.
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What is the purpose of the spikes? Are they just for appearance?
My SS9.5's are currently sitting on Berber carpet on the plinths without spikes. In new home, the floor will be polyvinyl and without any carpet.
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What is the purpose of the spikes? Are they just for appearance?
My SS9.5's are currently sitting on Berber carpet on the plinths without spikes. In new home, the floor will be polyvinyl and without any carpet.
For a few decades, it was thought that the best approach is to use spikes to "couple" the speaker to the floor. Now many companies are offering footers that "de-couple" the speaker from the floor.
Obviously, both of these cannot be correct for a given situation.
My read on it is that if you have a wooden floor that can vibrate, use footers that de-couple the speakers from the floor to avoid resonances being transferred to the floor. If you have a concrete or other stable floor, then spikes would probably be appropriate.
While many would disagree, I listened quite a bit with both approaches and also with just a plinth and no spikes as you do. I've never heard any significant differences. I wouldn't be so bold as to disagree if someone thinks either of these approaches improves things significantly. I've just never experienced much of a difference myself. So I'm somewhat agnostic at this point.
- Jim
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For a few decades, it was thought that the best approach is to use spikes to "couple" the speaker to the floor. Now many companies are offering footers that "de-couple" the speaker from the floor.
Obviously, both of these cannot be correct for a given situation.
My read on it is that if you have a wooden floor that can vibrate, use footers that de-couple the speakers from the floor to avoid resonances being transferred to the floor. If you have a concrete or other stable floor, then spikes would probably be appropriate.
While many would disagree, I listened quite a bit with both approaches and also with just a plinth and no spikes as you do. I've never heard any significant differences. I wouldn't be so bold as to disagree if someone thinks either of these approaches improves things significantly. I've just never experienced much of a difference myself. So I'm somewhat agnostic at this point.
- Jim
Spot on Jim. We concur 100% from hands on experience.
charles