Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?

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Chazz5

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How would you distribute percent importance for maximum sound quality among these:

The stylus/cartridge - the tonearm - the turntable itself

85 - 10 - 5 percent?


The turntable could be further divided, but no need to if it is the smallest percentage overall. And yes, each component must meet a minimum standard to get acceptable playback. The question here is how to distribute optional upgrade or how to to target a new setup.

Phil_S

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #1 on: 25 Feb 2022, 01:37 am »
IMO there's no way to respond to the question with any kind of universal answer.  It's all about system synergy, and that includes the electronics and the room itself.  Because this is an electro-mechanical device, it is sensitive to placement and protection from vibrations.  It's not just the hardware but how it's setup.  Is everything balanced, aligned, leveled, etc...?  It all plays a part. 

You can use the most expensive equipment but without proper setup it will sound like crap.  The reverse is also true.

So...it depends.

SET Man

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #2 on: 25 Feb 2022, 02:24 am »
How would you distribute percent importance for maximum sound quality among these:

The stylus/cartridge - the tonearm - the turntable itself

85 - 10 - 5 percent?


The turntable could be further divided, but no need to if it is the smallest percentage overall. And yes, each component must meet a minimum standard to get acceptable playback. The question here is how to distribute optional upgrade or how to to target a new setup.

Hey!

    Of course having expensive turntable and cart without properly alignment and set up is useless.

    Proper set up aside, if you're asking about the turntable/arm and cart themselves. Personally, especially if you're new to this, I would get the best turntable/arm combo that you could afford and use the rest of the money for cart. The reason is, if you have turntable/arm combo that can't keep steady speed and noisy then it doesn't matter how expensive your cart is, you won't get the most out of your cart.

   Let's say if I had $5000. I would spend $4500 on what you feel the best turntable and tonearm combo and get a $500 cart. Use that for awhile and upgrade the cart down the road. But that's just my opinion.

   By the way talk about cheap cart I have a $39 Audio Technica AT-VM95C on my second turntable and I have to say it is a very enjoyable cart to listen to.

Buddy

   

Dieterle Tool

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #3 on: 25 Feb 2022, 01:27 pm »
^ I agree w Buddy, maybe 20-40-40 or even 10-45-45.

I think ultimately, a cartridge effects the over-all sound almost as much as a speaker, but you will never hear the subtle differences of cartridges if noise from the table drowns it out.

-Dieter


S Clark

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #4 on: 25 Feb 2022, 02:09 pm »
Starting with $5000
turntable- $1500  Plinth- $500  Tonearm- $1500 Phono cable- $500
That leaves $1000 for a cartridge. 
Now, how much are you going to spend on a phono preamp?

toocool4

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #5 on: 25 Feb 2022, 03:23 pm »
It’s a hard one, I would say start with the turntable, then work around it.

My setup turned out like this
Turntable / Motor unit 48%
Tonearm 33%
Cartridge 19%

Roughly the above. I did not think oh I will spend this percentage on this that and the other, I just started with the turntable I liked and then bought what works with it for me.

Chazz5

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #6 on: 25 Feb 2022, 07:19 pm »
I didn't define the percentage dimension clearly. Please forget percent of budget. I wonder what is the contribution of each of the three components to sound quality. That is a vague criterion, so you get to define it, too.

Mitsuman

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #7 on: 25 Feb 2022, 07:35 pm »
I didn't define the percentage dimension clearly. Please forget percent of budget. I wonder what is the contribution of each of the three components to sound quality. That is a vague criterion, so you get to define it, too.

IMHO, then you must include the preamp. The TT and Tonearm should impart nothing to the reproduced signal (if all is designed and executed properly). The transducer and the circuitry responsible for the signal from the transducer comprise somewhere near 90% of what you hear.

kmmd

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #8 on: 25 Feb 2022, 08:04 pm »
I just started my turntable / analog journey and Mitsuman is correct.  Another wrinkle to sound quality is the record itself with respect to the quality of the original recording, pressing and vinyl itself.  I purchased an Analogue Productions  Quality Record pressing of Norah Jones Come Away With Me.  The details on the record are nowhere to be found on the CD or high rez versions.  As a result, I haven’t turned on my digital components in a while.




Addendum:

Here’s a thread that I read through as I was waiting for my analog gear to arrive.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/turntable-versus-tonearm-versus-cartridge-which-is-most-important
« Last Edit: 25 Feb 2022, 09:04 pm by kmmd »

RPM123

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #9 on: 25 Feb 2022, 10:07 pm »
Below is the opinion of Origin Live - makers of turntables, tonearms and cables.

https://www.originlive.com/key-information/how-to-choose-hi-fi-system/

Apportion budget: Vinyl-based replay
Turntable 23%
Tonearm 18% (the importance of the arm is explained in tonearm overview)
Cartridge 5%
Phono Stage 25% (the phono stage accounts for up to 95% of the total amplification in Vinyl based systems)
Amplifiers 15%
Speakers 15%
The only way to sensibly quantify contribution is to do comparison tests. Magazines used to highlight the importance of front-end hierarchy by setting up two identical Linn turntables – one with a £400 Ittok tonearm and £20 AT95E cartridge. The other with a £150 Basik tonearm and £500 cartridge. Which sounded better? It may be a surprise, but the £20 cartridge in the better arm outperformed the expensive £500 cartridge in the lesser arm.

twitch54

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #10 on: 25 Feb 2022, 10:43 pm »
Hey!

    Of course having expensive turntable and cart without properly alignment and set up is useless.

    Proper set up aside, if you're asking about the turntable/arm and cart themselves. Personally, especially if you're new to this, I would get the best turntable/arm combo that you could afford and use the rest of the money for cart. The reason is, if you have turntable/arm combo that can't keep steady speed and noisy then it doesn't matter how expensive your cart is, you won't get the most out of your cart.

   Let's say if I had $5000. I would spend $4500 on what you feel the best turntable and tonearm combo and get a $500 cart. Use that for awhile and upgrade the cart down the road. But that's just my opinion.

   By the way talk about cheap cart I have a $39 Audio Technica AT-VM95C on my second turntable and I have to say it is a very enjoyable cart to listen to.

Buddy

   

Buddy, using your budget (5k) Id buy a Technics 1200G and an Ortofon 2m Black and call it a day !

Wayner

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #11 on: 25 Feb 2022, 11:46 pm »
A great recording will always make any system shine. A poor recording will make any system sound dull. This usually means that a reasonable amount of money spent on a TT front end will usually result in smiles.

dlaloum

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #12 on: 26 Feb 2022, 06:06 am »
Hmmmm...

Critical aspects...

First challenge is isolation - if your floor is a concrete slab, this is less of a problem, but if it is a suspended wooden floor - totally critical... Music is vibration, you will be playing music in the room, and you need to stop the vibration getting back into the turntable in a feedback loop.

Suspended TT's have a substantial level of isolation build in... non suspended tables, means you have to build the isolation into your support platform, feet etc...

This needn't be expensive! - Ikea Lack side table, standing on a concrete paver, with some absorbent sorbothan isolators under the feet can do magic, for chump change.

The TT itself....

A nice reliable motor system, with low wow and flutter, could be belt, could be direct.... not particularly critical as long as the speed is consistent! - some mass in the platter helps, but it is the overall solution that counts

The Tonearm

Yeah needs to be decent - in a perfect world, it should also have either fluid damping or electro-mechanical - but as long as it is decent, there are lots of perfectly serviceable arms!

The cartridge... THE STYLUS

Ok the actual critical part here is the stylus and NOT the cartridge... for best results, you want the lowest possible effective mass - and the effective mass is 99% in the cantilever (forget the mythology about moving magnets vs moving coils... the bits on the end are a minor add to the effective mass - and the long bit in the middle is the vast majority!)

This is where you should be spending the $ - get something that has a boron, ruby or sapphire cantilever - difference between the three acoustically is negligible.... I would choose Boron as my goto, because it is typically better value for money.

What sort of cartridge - MC or MM? - well, the single thing that most affects the voicing of your cartridge is the cantilever - which has nothing to do with MC or MM.
An MC cartridge is a mostly non adjustable setup - you cannot replace the stylus, and you have no substantive way of adjusting the voicing of the cartridge (yes loading has an impact but it is minor) - if you like its sound, good.
An MM cartridge is an adjustable system, you can easily replace the stylus (and upgrade, downgrade, opt for a stylus designed for 78RPM records, etc...), but here is the important thing - a standard MM cartridge is highly tunable at the phono stage, as you can adjust both capacitive and resistive loading... if you find the cartridge a bit "dark" reduce the C loading, if a bit too bright raise the C loading. - With proper adjustment, a good MM with a top stylus can achieve a neutral (ie: flat) frequency response.... allowing you to reproduce what was recorded onto the record...without editting!
Now if you want that MM to sound like an MC - you can tune it that way. If you want to optimise for bass, reduce the highs - that too is possible.
Oh yeah while I am on the cartridge and stylus - anything with a boron or similar cantilever, will have a line contact diamond on the end - good thing! very important.... If shopping lower down the range, with aluminium cantilevers - opt for a lightweight tapered one over a straight one, opt for a line contact design diamond, in preference over an eliptical or spherical. (benefits are improved performance on worn records, reduced wear of both records and diamond, hence extended life of the needle, and more importantly the irreplaceable record!)

Final comment - the cartridge/stylus must match the tonearm mass - a low mass tonearm (below 10g effective mass) will need a high compliance cartridge - that is to say one that tracks at under 1.5g as its optimum - the lower the mass of the tonearm (can get down to 4g!) the higher the compliance needed from cartridge/stylus - a 4g effective mass arm, will require a cartridge/stylus capable of 1g VTF.

Current mass market is in the mid to high mass arm range - arms of 11g to 16g effective mass are typical, and suitable cartridges/styli will track around 2g.

Personally - I would track down a suitable MM body without a stylus (typically for pennies, or a no longer required hand me down from family/friends) - for which a Jico SAS stylus is availble (check the Jico website) - the SAS is a world class top notch stylus - and if there is one available to fit the MM body you have - the combination will be world class (as long as it is in an appropriate, matched, arm, and properly loaded phono stage...)

An arm with fluid damping has much wider latitude to fit theoretically non-matching cartridge/styli - but ultimately, even with those arms, best results will be when arm effective mass, matches the cartridge compliance. (this is where a lot of people get into trouble... the dark arts of cartridge/arm matching... it really isn't all that hard, but most people don't even know it is a thing)

Phono stage:
OK well, this has to match your cartridge.... no point having a MM phono stage and trying to run a low output MC through it.
You can spend a bundle on these.... but:
If you chose an MM cartridge, as recomended above... a MM phono sage is typically easier and cheaper to manufacture - you get very good ones for reasonable $ - and there are typically loads of used ones that are excellent out there as well.
If you have a vintage 1980's or 1970's receiver or integrated, you will have an excellent phono stage built in (almost certainly).
What should you pick, ideally.... well one that allows for the adjustment of the loading, so you can properly tune your cartridge. - you want at least 4 or 5 steps in both Capacitance and Resistance.... with C going from 0pf to 300pf and R going from 27k to 70k (so 2 steps below the 47k standard, and 2 steps above)

Tonearm/Turntable interconnect cables....
Classic TT's of the 70's and 80's all used very low capacitance cables - typically at or under 100pf - they look thin and cheap... and some people replace them with thick, "audiophile" cables.... and then wonder what happened to the sound!! (typical fancy audiophile cables end up being between 300pf and 500pf... and will kill the high end response of most MM cartridges)
Perhaps the tendency to replace perfectly good TT cables, with audiophile jewelry cables, has contributed to the ongoing fad for MC's, as MC cartridges are insensitive to capacitance....
If your TT cable is already at 400pf - you have no hope of getting the C loading down to the 200pf that many MM's require.


Anyway - to sum up - you need to get the COMBINATION (aka - synergy) right...

Platform Isolation and vibration absorbance
Arm mass / Cartridge Compliance /VTF
Phono Stage and cartridge loading

Get these all tuned in and working together - and your TT will make good music

S Clark

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  • a riot is the language of the unheard- Dr. King
Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #13 on: 26 Feb 2022, 02:13 pm »
Dlaloum-  It's really good to see you posting again.  So many vinyl voices around here have gone silent.

Scott

twitch54

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #14 on: 26 Feb 2022, 03:33 pm »
Hmmmm...

Critical aspects...

First challenge is isolation - if your floor is a concrete slab, this is less of a problem, but if it is a suspended wooden floor - totally critical... Music is vibration, you will be playing music in the room, and you need to stop the vibration getting back into the turntable in a feedback loop.

Suspended TT's have a substantial level of isolation build in... non suspended tables, means you have to build the isolation into your support platform, feet etc...

This needn't be expensive! - Ikea Lack side table, standing on a concrete paver, with some absorbent sorbothan isolators under the feet can do magic, for chump change.

The TT itself....

A nice reliable motor system, with low wow and flutter, could be belt, could be direct.... not particularly critical as long as the speed is consistent! - some mass in the platter helps, but it is the overall solution that counts

The Tonearm

Yeah needs to be decent - in a perfect world, it should also have either fluid damping or electro-mechanical - but as long as it is decent, there are lots of perfectly serviceable arms!

The cartridge... THE STYLUS

Ok the actual critical part here is the stylus and NOT the cartridge... for best results, you want the lowest possible effective mass - and the effective mass is 99% in the cantilever (forget the mythology about moving magnets vs moving coils... the bits on the end are a minor add to the effective mass - and the long bit in the middle is the vast majority!)

This is where you should be spending the $ - get something that has a boron, ruby or sapphire cantilever - difference between the three acoustically is negligible.... I would choose Boron as my goto, because it is typically better value for money.

What sort of cartridge - MC or MM? - well, the single thing that most affects the voicing of your cartridge is the cantilever - which has nothing to do with MC or MM.
An MC cartridge is a mostly non adjustable setup - you cannot replace the stylus, and you have no substantive way of adjusting the voicing of the cartridge (yes loading has an impact but it is minor) - if you like its sound, good.
An MM cartridge is an adjustable system, you can easily replace the stylus (and upgrade, downgrade, opt for a stylus designed for 78RPM records, etc...), but here is the important thing - a standard MM cartridge is highly tunable at the phono stage, as you can adjust both capacitive and resistive loading... if you find the cartridge a bit "dark" reduce the C loading, if a bit too bright raise the C loading. - With proper adjustment, a good MM with a top stylus can achieve a neutral (ie: flat) frequency response.... allowing you to reproduce what was recorded onto the record...without editting!
Now if you want that MM to sound like an MC - you can tune it that way. If you want to optimise for bass, reduce the highs - that too is possible.
Oh yeah while I am on the cartridge and stylus - anything with a boron or similar cantilever, will have a line contact diamond on the end - good thing! very important.... If shopping lower down the range, with aluminium cantilevers - opt for a lightweight tapered one over a straight one, opt for a line contact design diamond, in preference over an eliptical or spherical. (benefits are improved performance on worn records, reduced wear of both records and diamond, hence extended life of the needle, and more importantly the irreplaceable record!)

Final comment - the cartridge/stylus must match the tonearm mass - a low mass tonearm (below 10g effective mass) will need a high compliance cartridge - that is to say one that tracks at under 1.5g as its optimum - the lower the mass of the tonearm (can get down to 4g!) the higher the compliance needed from cartridge/stylus - a 4g effective mass arm, will require a cartridge/stylus capable of 1g VTF.

Current mass market is in the mid to high mass arm range - arms of 11g to 16g effective mass are typical, and suitable cartridges/styli will track around 2g.

Personally - I would track down a suitable MM body without a stylus (typically for pennies, or a no longer required hand me down from family/friends) - for which a Jico SAS stylus is availble (check the Jico website) - the SAS is a world class top notch stylus - and if there is one available to fit the MM body you have - the combination will be world class (as long as it is in an appropriate, matched, arm, and properly loaded phono stage...)

An arm with fluid damping has much wider latitude to fit theoretically non-matching cartridge/styli - but ultimately, even with those arms, best results will be when arm effective mass, matches the cartridge compliance. (this is where a lot of people get into trouble... the dark arts of cartridge/arm matching... it really isn't all that hard, but most people don't even know it is a thing)

Phono stage:
OK well, this has to match your cartridge.... no point having a MM phono stage and trying to run a low output MC through it.
You can spend a bundle on these.... but:
If you chose an MM cartridge, as recomended above... a MM phono sage is typically easier and cheaper to manufacture - you get very good ones for reasonable $ - and there are typically loads of used ones that are excellent out there as well.
If you have a vintage 1980's or 1970's receiver or integrated, you will have an excellent phono stage built in (almost certainly).
What should you pick, ideally.... well one that allows for the adjustment of the loading, so you can properly tune your cartridge. - you want at least 4 or 5 steps in both Capacitance and Resistance.... with C going from 0pf to 300pf and R going from 27k to 70k (so 2 steps below the 47k standard, and 2 steps above)

Tonearm/Turntable interconnect cables....
Classic TT's of the 70's and 80's all used very low capacitance cables - typically at or under 100pf - they look thin and cheap... and some people replace them with thick, "audiophile" cables.... and then wonder what happened to the sound!! (typical fancy audiophile cables end up being between 300pf and 500pf... and will kill the high end response of most MM cartridges)
Perhaps the tendency to replace perfectly good TT cables, with audiophile jewelry cables, has contributed to the ongoing fad for MC's, as MC cartridges are insensitive to capacitance....
If your TT cable is already at 400pf - you have no hope of getting the C loading down to the 200pf that many MM's require.


Anyway - to sum up - you need to get the COMBINATION (aka - synergy) right...

Platform Isolation and vibration absorbance
Arm mass / Cartridge Compliance /VTF
Phono Stage and cartridge loading

Get these all tuned in and working together - and your TT will make good music

Well said sir ......  :thumb:

WGH

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #15 on: 26 Feb 2022, 06:10 pm »
... opt for a line contact design diamond, in preference over an eliptical or spherical. (benefits are improved performance on worn records, reduced wear of both records and diamond, hence extended life of the needle, and more importantly the irreplaceable record!)

I prefer a line contact stylus. All my albums were bought new starting in 1963 when I bought my first turntable - a Zenith with the 2 gram tonearm. The albums have been used but not abused. A line contact stylus and a good record cleaning make them sound new again (almost).

The Goldring 1042 is perfect for a low mass tonearm. The stylus is a nude, natural-diamond with a line-contact Fritz Geyer S profile and is replaceable. This stylus extracts everything on the album and because it tracks deeper surface noise and scratches are less apparent, this is a quiet cartridge.

The downside is setup is critical with the Geyer S profile and other line contact stylus. The vertical tracking angle (stylus rake angle) has to be close to perfect. If your turntable arm doesn't have height adjustment then a line contact stylus is not the best choice.

BobM

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #16 on: 26 Feb 2022, 07:23 pm »
You absolutely forgot the most important part ... the phono stage. Everything has to go through that. Even the best cartridge won't do its thing unless the phono stage is up to the task.

SET Man

Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #17 on: 27 Feb 2022, 01:45 am »
Buddy, using your budget (5k) Id buy a Technics 1200G and an Ortofon 2m Black and call it a day !

Hey!
   
   You know, I've never had a direct driver turntable, only belt drive ones. I sometime curious of what direct driver turntable like the Technics would sound like in my own system.

Buddy

dlaloum

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #18 on: 27 Feb 2022, 03:14 am »
A good belt drive and a good DD sound pretty similar!

The reason the market today is dominated by BD's is that for a few decades, turntables became a boutique industry...

Any DIY'er with a bit of carpentry and electronics skills can make a decent BD - no magic, the principles are known, the solutions and their pros and cons have been discussed over and over on forums like this one.

So pretty much anyone can set up a workshop to crank out BD's. - No specialised tools or engineering know how is needed. (and you can do a great job too!)

But for a DD, you need quite specialised engineering and manufacturing capabilities - hence, as the large makers of DD motors shut down their procuction lines - DD's disappeared off the market.

How good is a good DD - well, let me put it this way - every record you have ever listened to, has been made via a Direct Drive lathe.

No matter what the turntable you use at home, you will always be listening to a direct drive....

Neumann Lathes used Technics SP02 motors... with a 60kg platter on top of it !!! - the Technics motor uses exactly the same design as used in the ubiquitous 1200's and the less ubiquitous SP10's (and of course the new generation)...

Yes poorly engineered DD's have issues, as does any poorly engineered TT - but there is a lot of BS mythology around this stuff.... mostly it demonstrates that there is a lot of ignorance.

gene9p

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Re: Turntable setup and sound quality - most important element?
« Reply #19 on: 19 Mar 2022, 10:44 pm »
the great equalizer..no matter the budget..no matter your set up..this makes them all sound great!!! :D