[Texbychoice]

The heads are exploding over at Audio Science.  After all the insults hurled at Danny and this forum, they get their knickers in a knot when scrutiny presented in a non-insulting way appears here regarding their measurements.  Comments like capacitors are just as simple as resistors reveal a closed mind attitude and unwillingness to learn.  I guess if Harman or some other brand name decided to use "Audio Grade" capacitors they would be called out as snake oil salesman adding needless cost to their product.  Their hostility toward anyone not bowing at the altar of the almighty Measurement god is childish.

[ServerAdmin]

The heads are exploding over at Audio Science.  After all the insults hurled at Danny and this forum, they get their knickers in a knot when scrutiny presented in a non-insulting way appears here regarding their measurements.  Comments like capacitors are just as simple as resistors reveal a closed mind attitude and unwillingness to learn.  I guess if Harman or some other brand name decided to use "Audio Grade" capacitors they would be called out as snake oil salesman adding needless cost to their product.  Their hostility toward anyone not bowing at the altar of the almighty Measurement god is childish.

There have been plenty of insults made in this thread...

Anyway, this type of inter-forum squabbling serves no useful purpose. It's the same old adage - discuss the topic, not the person. Please consider that a last warning. Thanks....

[Danny Richie]

Hey everyone. I've been away for a day. I have been overworked and took a day off with my family. And today is my birthday yet I am needing to drop in here on touch base on this one.

Lots of things to touch on here. I'm just going to ramble through this and touch the high points.

First off, I am really quite proud of the community here and how helpful everyone here can be. We have some real class acts here. But let's try to show our class and hold ourselves to the highest standards here. Sometimes when someone is throwing jabs and trying to pick a fight it is best to just turn the other check.

I really don't have a lot to add that you guys haven't already said regarding the evaluation of our base X-LS Encore kit. You guys already noticed the obvious.

Yes, things were purposely built in a manor knowing that the results would be effected by how it was built. But they are correct. I don't specify every detail in the plans. And yes, some round vertical sides only for rolling veneer. Some round all corners and paint. We know as experienced hobbyists that the rounded corners matter. I don't specify every detail because everyone likes to finish their cabinets differently. And anyone with a question about that typically asks me or posts about it here.

Do the sharp edges effect the measured responses? Of course they do. We know that and they did too.

And I also don't specify No Rez for every build. It really isn't necessary for every build. For some it is a budget build for home theater or their garage or something and they just want the bare basics. But if an adequate amount of fiberglass insulation is used then internal standing waves, that showed up in his measurements, will also be controlled.

And yes, he conveyed some positive feedback from his listening of a single speaker. And sure, I'm glad he liked what he heard, but we all know that he never heard what a pair of them are capable of.

And yes I have been communicating with Rick (the builder), He has called me and sent me emails since this was released. He has been very cordial.

And I have offered to send Amir the pair that I just assembled if he will agree to listen to the pair and compare them (listening) to the pair that Rick built.

And yes as we all know that difference in the base model and a fully upgraded model is pretty significant and easy to hear. But who knows what will really happen there. If he admits what we all know to be the difference then it will fly in the face of everything that he has been preaching for years. Or he may not hear any difference or have to say that he hears no difference. It is a kind of tough to send out a tough pill to swallow. It may be too big of a pill to swallow. I don't know for sure what will happen there.

Bottom line as of now is that the speaker measured great minus the edge diffraction and internal reflections from a minimal amount of insulation used. In the end he also recommended the speakers.

And yes, I know it is a small group of guys and followers there, but I always feel like I want to help those guys move from just measuring to measuring and listening. There is nothing wrong with measuring everything. I do that with every design. But in the end this hobby is about listening and how things sound. And we are driven, not to find a product that measures better, but to reach higher levels of reproduction for our enjoyment. So in the end it is all about how it sounds.

We'll see what happens, but in the mean time everyone please be nice. I know they are taking shots at me over there (I knew that would happen) and people that know better want to step in and defend me. Thanks, but in the end they have no effect on GR Research and the business that I am doing. I haven't even bothered to read past the first page over there. I don't have time for it.

I'm shipping kits out the wazoo over here right now and I really appreciate the real feedback that all of you give. Real feedback really helps. Thank you!

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Well, Happy Birthday, Danny!
I'm glad you took a day off for yourself and to spend time with family.

I'm also glad to hear your take on things, & I'm definitely interested to see what is to follow; regardless of Amir's current opinions, and if/how they may change in the future..

Keep up the great work!

[Skilly]

I applaud Danny's courageous decision to engage in this manufactured (literally) controversy. I believe that Amir will show the same level of honesty in his analysis that he always does. I am reminded of a famous Upton Sinclair quote. He said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." It may very well not be his "salary" that depends on this, but it is his reputation and central purpose for his analysis. How he squares this will be something to behold.

Oh and Happy birthday.

Scott

[hawkeyejw]

Happy birthday Danny. Kudos to you for taking the high road and encouraging everyone here to do the same. It’s one thing to poke fun in a good natured way but the personal attacks just end with people digging in on both sides and nobody learns anything from each other. If Amir measures and listens to both pairs and posts his results then great, but even if not we’re all fortunate to have the space and options in this hobby to enjoy it regardless of philosophy.

[Endo2112]

At the end of the day,  the high road always has a better view!!

Happy B-Day

Don

[Texbychoice]

Amir recently reviewed a DIY Carmody S2000 Kit.  Assembled by the same fellow that assembled the first and second version XLS-Encore.  Testing the second version, correctly assembled, has not occurred yet.  Supposedly finished and shipped to Amir in September.

The Carmody S2000 measurements look similar to the first version XLS-Encore measurements.  Amir reported expecting to not like the sound of the Carmody based on the measurements.  However, he listened, liked and enthusiastically recommended the Carmody.  The Carmody crossover includes Dayton Audio and Audyn capacitors, air core inductors, and Dayton Audio resistors.  All the dreaded "audio grade" components routinely labeled as "snake oil" on ASR. 

If the second correctly assembled XLS-Encore is ever tested can't wait for measurements and listening reaction from Amir.  Amir seems to have time to test every flavor of Harman product.

[Danny Richie]

If the second correctly assembled XLS-Encore is ever tested can't wait for measurements and listening reaction from Amir.  Amir seems to have time to test every flavor of Harman product.

If he ever listens to it (yes he just listens to one speaker only) and compares it to the base level model then it will not likely ever be mentioned ever again. There is not likely any way that they will ever admit that the higher quality parts make an audible difference.

[Doublej]

Does Amir have a pair of correctly assembled XLS-Encores with upgraded crossovers in his possession?

[Danny Richie]

Does Amir have a pair of correctly assembled XLS-Encores with upgraded crossovers in his possession?

He was sent one of the base models, and one was ordered with Sonicaps and Mills resistors to be built out to compare. I don't know if he received the second one or not.

[Skilly]

I agree with Danny. This was a hit job from the start. If we hear anything at all, it will only reinforce his narrative. I commend your effort to educate him on the specifics and your ability to remain on the high road.

[Texbychoice]

Does Amir have a pair of correctly assembled XLS-Encores with upgraded crossovers in his possession?

The builder of the Encores, Rick S., reported shipping the second version to Amir on Sept 12.  The Carmody kit just reviewed by Amir was reported shipped to Amir on Sept 28 from Rick S.  So does not appear Amir does reviews in a first in - first out order.

Discovering GR Research and Danny's videos inspired me to upgrade speaker crossovers.  Incrementally changed 1 speaker leaving the other unmodified as a baseline for comparison.  There is no doubt quality caps, air core inductors, and quality resistors made clear and easily identifiable audible differences.  Acquiring a UMIK-1 late in the process made final in room response tweaks related to speaker position and a little EQ easier.  May not be a flat response curve if measured in a Lab.  Don't listen in a Lab so don't really care.

Quality parts do make a big difference.  Hope Amir does test, listen and report on the second build XLS- Encore.       

[Davey]

I agree with Danny. This was a hit job from the start. If we hear anything at all, it will only reinforce his narrative. I commend your effort to educate him on the specifics and your ability to remain on the high road.

I saw no "hit job."  He NFS measured the speaker that was sent to him......and discussed/disclosed the build specification (mods-wise) they were assembled to.

If a speaker measurements pretty much conform to the CEA 2034-A-2015 standard, then Amir will give it the thumbs-up.  This is the essence of his speaker evaluations......at least as it currently stands.

Dave.

[Tyson]

I saw no "hit job."  He NFS measured the speaker that was sent to him......and discussed/disclosed the build specification (mods-wise) they were assembled to.

If a speaker measurements pretty much conform to the CEA 2034-A-2015 standard, then Amir will give it the thumbs-up.  This is the essence of his speaker evaluations......at least as it currently stands.

Dave.

Right, and our perspective here is that good measurements are necessary but not sufficient.  You build upon good measurements with high quality parts.

[Hobbsmeerkat]

Right, and our perspective here is that good measurements are necessary but not sufficient.  You build upon good measurements with high quality parts.

And by listening. Its a subjective experience obviously, but is just as crucial to the experience as a whole.

People like to poopoo on Danny's Tube connectors, but they do make a difference, even on my base X-LS.
Same goes for high end cables in general, but Danny's new DIY cables definitely made a difference that was noticable within just a couple seconds of listening.

While I appreciate that Amir still gave an ultra-barebones XLS an overall positive review for its solid performance, its not entirely indicative of how they perform when built to a more typical standard with 3/8" roundovers and a sheet of Norez, or vinyl/butyl sheets & rockwool for a more DIY sollution.

Plus the lack of any subjective listening impressions leaves a lot of information on the table, cuz things can measure well, but still not sound all that great.

Its why I really enjoy & appreciate Ron's reviews & listening impression videos with sound clips, it gives you a broader picture beyond just the graphs & charts.

Imo, it's not that Amir is wrong in his assessments or reviewa, but I personally feel that he's too rigid in his testing methodology, but to each their own.

[Davey]

Right, and our perspective here is that good measurements are necessary but not sufficient.  You build upon good measurements with high quality parts.

Yeah, I'm well aware of how you roll here. 
'Just pointing out it was NOT a "hit job" and correcting the mischaracterization.

Dave.

[NeilBlanchard]

The lack of any MUSICAL CONTEXT on that site, means that their reviews are not all that useful, for me anyway.

If one were to take a couple of dozen measurements of an elephant, and report those - without picture, how would you judge anything about the elephant? For speakers in particular, graphs and numbers are almost useless - unless you also know how it renders the signal into sound waves. That is what it is designed to do.

Would you review a car - without driving it?

[Davey]

The lack of any MUSICAL CONTEXT on that site, means that their reviews are not all that useful, for me anyway.

If one were to take a couple of dozen measurements of an elephant, and report those - without picture, how would you judge anything about the elephant? For speakers in particular, graphs and numbers are almost useless - unless you also know how it renders the signal into sound waves. That is what it is designed to do.

Would you review a car - without driving it?

The "graphs and numbers" were derived from actual measurements of the sound wave rendered into the room, yes? 
Even Danny would tell you that measurements are an extremely important aspect of speaker system design.

Your elephant and car analogies are silly.

Dave.

[Tyson]

I agree with Dave, measurements are very important and can give a good idea of how a speaker will sound.  Without accurate measurements we are blind.  The more measurements we get, the better.  Then we can start to see where and how measurements correlate to subjective experience, which is very useful.