Is this my electronics or ribbon vs dome?

rahimlee54 · « **on:** 19 Jun 2009, 07:42 pm »

This question is due to my unfamiliarity with audio gear.

I went to a local AC members house for a GTG, he had a very nice setup with usher BE-20s, Mcintosh amps and various other gear I cant recall. I brought along the demo cd Jim sent me and played a few cuts from that, since I had been listening to that alot at home. Some of the stuff sounded pretty much what I was accustomed to. Track 8: Nils Loftgren - Acoustic Live - Keith Don't Go, I believe we were listening to this and everything was about the same but when it hit the guitar solo towards the middle of the song his setup had string twang after the bar chords that were playing. I took it home and sure enough they were not very pronounced at all. I could hear them if I tried, so I was just wondering if that is his electronics, which he had a DAC and I do not, or if that is a characteristic of the dome vs the ribbon. I think it is my equipment limiting me here and not the speaker but I didnt know for sure. I am just using a pioneer elite avr and a PS3 until I can get around to ordering a squeezebox.

HT2-TLs of course.

Those are a flagship and mine are not so I dont know if it is comparing apples to oranges or not just curious.

Input from more experienced individuals welcome.

Thanks
Jared

boead · « **Reply #1 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm »

welcome to the world of Audiophile.
Its not any one particular thing. You are hearing revealed resolution and there are many, many different levels of it.
Pioneer Elite AV Receiver and a PS3 are commercial grade and limited in ability. Once you pass that hurdle it becomes a matter of taste and synergy between components.
A squeezebox isn?t the answer; actually there are no answers just lots of exploration. It?s a journey for better or worse.
Better speakers reveal what?s upstream but on the other hand a better source makes lesser speakers sound better then they ought too. It?s a matter of balance (synergy). IMO, more revealing is not always better! Others will not agree. Sometimes systems that are too revealing can be audibly distracting and less musical. However, too little detail is like having a burlap sack over your speakers.

You said the AC member had a DAC, well so do you - It?s in the PS3. What brand/model was it? What transport did he use? Cables? Power cords? McIntosh amps? Preamps? Model?

Speakers are just one small part of the entire system.

mathgeek97 · « **Reply #2 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm »

Jared,
I'd vote for the Usher setup having nicer electronics and a difference between a well-designed $4000 speaker and a well-designed $18,800 speaker. Apples to oranges...
-Kevin
P.S. I haven't gone crazy waiting for my HT2-TLs... yet!

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #3 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:22 pm »

Quote from: boead on 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm

welcome to the world of Audiophile.
Its not any one particular thing. You are hearing revealed resolution and there are many, many different levels of it.
Pioneer Elite AV Receiver and a PS3 are commercial grade and limited in ability. Once you pass that hurdle it becomes a matter of taste and synergy between components.
A squeezebox isn?t the answer; actually there are no answers just lots of exploration. It?s a journey for better or worse.
Better speakers reveal what?s upstream but on the other hand a better source makes lesser speakers sound better then they ought too. It?s a matter of balance (synergy). IMO, more revealing is not always better! Others will not agree. Sometimes systems that are too revealing can be audibly distracting and less musical. However, too little detail is like having a burlap sack over your speakers.

You said the AC member had a DAC, well so do you - It?s in the PS3. What brand/model was it? What transport did he use? Cables? Power cords? McIntosh amps? Preamps? Model?

Speakers are just one small part of the entire system.

There was so much stuff being swapped out I cant even begin to remember what all was there, I think I was hearing a samsung transport with a PS audio Dac III and some more PS audio cables at that point but no way to know for sure. Also there was McIntosh preamp and amp.

Nuance · « **Reply #4 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:30 pm »

It was probably a combination of a different speaker (Obviously), different electronics and completely different room acoustics. A room can change the sound characteristics of any speaker.

If it is still really bothering you, bring your HT2 TL's over to his house. Then you'll know for sure. Just remember, his speakers cost over 4x what you paid.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #5 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:38 pm »

Quote from: Nuance on 19 Jun 2009, 08:30 pm

It was probably a combination of a different speaker (Obviously), different electronics and completely different room acoustics. A room can change the sound characteristics of any speaker.

If it is still really bothering you, bring your HT2 TL's over to his house. Then you'll know for sure. Just remember, his speakers cost over 4x what you paid.

I am not bothered, the price difference alone is enough for me I just didnt know if that was due to the dome or it was a combo. I am just curious, I will not be replacing my salks anytime soon due to my room size and I have alot of other stuff to add before I even think about getting new speakers, besides I still really like what I have.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #6 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:44 pm »

I can't understate the benefit of a good DAC, especially if the speakers, amplification, and room acoustics are good. Obviously, a super high quality DAC or extraordinary CDP are not going to turn a mediocre system into an exemplary system, and the money to buy an expensive component might be more wisely used in other ways.

Maybe you can borrow a decent DAC to test with your system and find out if there is much of a difference. When I connected the AVA Insight DAC in my system, I could hear sounds that were never there before, and I was using a pair of Spendor speakers, which do not have the HT2-TL's detail. I recently listened to Revel Salon2 speakers driven by Levinson gear at a local dealer's GTG, and the HT2-TL in my system had as much detail (and sounded better), IMO. The fellow who purchased my ST RT also heard the Revel system, albeit at a different time, and he thought that the ST RT were better. (Dennis and George can both vouch that my 205 square foot room would not be the reason.) Your speakers are not lacking the ability to reproduce detailed source material, apples to apples or not.

Jeff B. · « **Reply #7 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 08:58 pm »

A difference like you describe is not likely a ribbon vs dome thing - it is much more likely to be a frequency response thing. It would only take a very small change in frequency response, especially in the 2-4kHz region to make someone describe a difference like this. I know Dennis set his speaker to be very flat in this range. What I don't know is - how flat is the Usher? 1 dB of difference, if it is centered in the right area, would be noticable to the ear and not so much on a graph. The other thing is; how the rooms differ in their acoustic signature. Since you are listening in two different rooms, we have to consider this too. To really ask this question you would almost need the speakers side by side in the same room, playing the same song, through the same equipment. Then we would simply say that their frequency response is a little different......

turkey · « **Reply #8 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:00 pm »

It's really hard to tell just what was going on.

I haven't heard that recording, so I don't know what it sounds like.

It could be the difference in speakers, or electronics, or the listening room, etc. It could be that the other rig is letting you hear more detail. Or it could be that the other rig is accentuating detail that shouldn't be.

Can you visit some local audio dealers with your CD and maybe get a better idea of how that track sounds on various systems?

Some people feel that gear like your Pioneer AVR and PS3 is perfectly fine. Others feel it isn't.
It's often hard to say who is right.

If you feel that you like the way that track sounded on the other system, and would like it to sound that way on your system, you will probably need to devote some time to sorting out just what the difference is.

I would not think that the problem is with your HT2-TLs. I would think they're as good or better than anything Usher makes. (The Chinese are pretty good at copying other people's speaker technology, but that's about it so far from what I see. Maybe some day that will change.)

For now I think you're better off getting a good feel for different stereo equipment and see what you can figure out that way.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #9 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:05 pm »

Thanks for all the good info here, I was wondering if the Crossover design had anything to do with it or if the dome was bringing out something extra. I may have to take turkey's advice and go on a listening trip sometime in the future. It's all one big learning experience for me at this point.

Also I am not sure my AVR is fine due to it not being rated for a 4 ohm load, I'll get an amp for the LR channels at some point so I dont stress the AVR in HT mode. It does do what I need currently though so it will be ok for a bit.

oneinthepipe · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 09:11 pm »

Quote from: mathgeek97 on 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm

I haven't gone crazy waiting for my HT2-TLs.

There is still time.

fsimms · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 10:08 pm »

What could be happening is compression in your friend's electronic equipment. This is like an automatic gain control to make everything sound more the same level. It adds a "fullness" to the sound that sells a lot of equipment.

Bob

turkey · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 10:33 pm »

Quote from: rahimlee54 on 19 Jun 2009, 09:05 pm

Thanks for all the good info here, I was wondering if the Crossover design had anything to do with it or if the dome was bringing out something extra.

There are good crossovers and bad crossovers. Good ones and bad ones come of all types. In other words, there is no magic in the type of crossover. It all comes down to how well a crossover is implemented and designed.

Dennis is one of the best crossover designers around. He knows his stuff and gets excellent results.

So I don't see that you would find anything wrong with the crossovers in your Salk speakers.

If the other system is doing something better than yours, it is not likely to be the speakers or the crossovers.

K Shep · « **Reply #13 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:01 pm »

I too am new to hi-end audio. I started out with a Sherwood Newcaslte AVR and 2 1/2 way Bronze Monitor Audio speakers with an old Sony 5 changer CD player. I Bought a used Arcam FMJ CD player, then a NAD 372 integrated amp. Each step up I could hear greater detail. The soundstage opened up and by the time my PMC GB1 speakers showed up I was hooked. The PMC speakers really sing. Then I found the Salk website and followed some of the fellow Song Tower owners threads. I ordered a pair of Song Tower RT's approx. one month ago and they are scheduled for delivery this Tuesday. In the mean time I picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube preamp and a Parasound A21 amp. When I went from the NAD integrated to seperates the presentation became much more forward, the soundstage filled the room and instruments appear to be hanging in three dimensional space. I am convinced you heard all of the characteristics of a well put together system, which takes time. It took me 6 months to get to where I am now.

knut_the_viking · « **Reply #14 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:03 pm »

Quote from: oneinthepipe on 19 Jun 2009, 08:44 pm

I can't understate the benefit of a good DAC...
<snip>

Overstate fits better in that context, no?
Or underestimate the benefit?

Nuance · « **Reply #15 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:15 pm »

I don't think it' the dome vs. ribbon. In my experience a well implemented, quality ribbon driver can and will outperform a dome. The dome's dispersion may be better, but the ribbon is usually more transparent.

You mentioned a "twang" sound, but are you sure it was a frequency that resides with the tweeter's range? It could have been more in the midrange.

Again, I'd be willing to bet it's a difference in room acoustics, or it's just a change in FR (perhaps due to the varying room acoustics). Of course, the Usher's could be intentionally engineered to accentuate that frequency, or it could have been distortion or resonance, which is sometimes misconstrued as "more detail," or "more revealing."

Which one sounded more natural to you? Oh, and if the $4000/pair HT2 TL's can hang with a speaker almost 5x the price, I'd say that's DARN impressive.

Nuance · « **Reply #16 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:18 pm »

K Shep - congrats buddy! I look forward to getting your impressions and seeing pics. Which veneer did you chose?

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #17 on:** 19 Jun 2009, 11:23 pm »

Quote from: mathgeek97 on 19 Jun 2009, 08:10 pm

Jared,
I'd vote for the Usher setup having nicer electronics and a difference between a well-designed $4000 speaker and a well-designed $18,800 speaker. Apples to oranges...
-Kevin
P.S. I haven't gone crazy waiting for my HT2-TLs... yet!

It's the second month that was the killer for me!

Nuance the Twang was the sound of the strings vibrating after being strummed very hard. I was just wondering if anyone else could play that on their salks and tell me if they hear that, just as an experiment. Any takers?

K Shep · « **Reply #18 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 12:11 am »

On my Alice in Chain's MTV unplugged CD (acoustic guitar recording) I can hear the described string vibration on this CD. I played the CD on my HT set up (Denon receiver, Sony BDP and Atlantic Tech/Polk speakers) I can hear the twang, but the seperation of instruments is not there as it is when I listen to the same CD on my 2 channel system. IMO I think you heard detail in the instrument.

If you like what you heard, you may want to consider and audition a preamp with HT bypass. This will allow you to utilize your AVR (as an amp) and experience the benefit of a preamp. Most preamps don't have tonal control, the less circuitry in the signal path the purer the signal. Just ask Nuance he is using a preamp in just this way.

K Shep · « **Reply #19 on:** 20 Jun 2009, 12:36 am »

Quote from: Nuance on 19 Jun 2009, 11:18 pm

K Shep - congrats buddy! I look forward to getting your impressions and seeing pics. Which veneer did you chose?

Thanks Nuance. I chose curly cherry. I will post photos too.

Rahim. I will have a pair of dome tweeter (PMC's) and ribbon (ST's) next week. I will listen to the demo CD Jim sent and get back to you. I don't believe there is anything wrong with your month new HT2-TL's. If you took them to your local AC members house, you would hear the same detail, IMO. Don't stress, bring the demo CD to as many audio shops as will let you and listen to gear. Then, of course report back your findings. Good luck and please remember everything I have said is my opinion.

Kirk