[theclipper]

Any consensus on what works best as far as toe-in for the M3’s? I’ve got about 60 hours on my pair and have been experimenting with toe and positioning. Haven’t quite found anything that’s really struck me as being totally locked in. So was just curious what has worked for others.

I also saw on the NRD YouTube review that he recommended toeing them into 15 degrees off-axis. Anyone know how to actually calculate that, or approximately where to aim them? I’ve current got them aimed at about the middle portion of my shoulder.

Thanks!

[Mr. Big]

I found toeing in more helped but then each room is different. Mine I would guess hits the inside of each shoulder, I just play with it till I learn how the sonics change in each direction more in, then more out, and then even more in and then even further out, you will educate your ear on the changes. Room acoustics also matter big, big time. Your room is bad nothing will save you, new gear, new speakers, etc. I also must add you need more time on your speakers, give them another full month or so. Then start playing with them, they are still quite new and the drivers have not lossened up yet.

[DaveWin88]

Just do your best to estimate. There might not be a totally locked in position if you will. You might like a little more than 15 degrees. Yeah btw don't let these guys discourage you with ( wait fifteen years and get room treatment before you do ANYTHING ) haha. Hell these speakers come with room treatment built in. Have fun with them.

[FireGuy]

My Axiom M2's V3 are toed in approx five degrees.  Took maybe an hour to fine tune.  Have an excellent space so that placement project was not long and tedious.   Good speaker cable too an important component.  Don't skimp there.

[RonN5]

I agree with Mr. Big….I’m approaching 500 hours and I’ve continued to increase the toe in…. now basically aimed toward each shoulder.  One thing though… the locked in image is different from my prior speakers, which were box speakers.  The M3 Sapphires have almost an ethereal quality to the sound… it’s not projected, it’s just there like musicians in the room.

My suggestion is to tweak toe in and rake angle every 100 hours to taste… until you hit maybe 6-800 hours… tbd as I’m not there yet.

[theclipper]

Thanks for the feedback fellas, it’s greatly appreciated!

I ended up increasing the toe to about midway between neck and shoulder. It has helped to increase the focus of the vocals. I’m pretty much sitting in an equilateral triangle. Currently up to 60 hours or so.

I’ve also been experimenting with my GIK acoustic panels. I have always had 1 bass trap in each corner of the room, but decided to take the two I had in the rear corners and stacked them into the front corners, along with another GIK 244 panel behind each speaker (pic included). This has helped to clean up imaging and eliminate the room boom, while ultimately unmasking more of the details in the music. On the flip side it also makes the speakers sound lean and thinner, but I’m wondering if that is just the true sound of them at this point in their evolution. In you guys experience does the bass deepen and become more pronounced over time?

[Bingenito]

I run X4s so different tweeter however with all speakers (varies based on dispersion characteristics) More toe will yield center focus, soundstage depth at the expense of fullness and soundstage width.

For the X4 very minor 10-15 degree toe in works great. More just shrinks the stage/ presentation. There is no right or wrong, just what presentation that you prefer.

[Tyson]

Re: bass, you should measure the speakers - that will give you a much better idea of what is going on.

[theclipper]

Thanks guys!

When using a basic iPhone app to check the toe-in angle, it looks like they are currently around 29 deg. Not entirely sure how accurate the app is, but assume it’s at least in the ballpark.

Tyson: Is there any easy app to be able to see what’s going on with the be bass, or is that more involved?

[Tyson]

Thanks guys!

When using a basic iPhone app to check the toe-in angle, it looks like they are currently around 29 deg. Not entirely sure how accurate the app is, but assume it’s at least in the ballpark.

Tyson: Is there any easy app to be able to see what’s going on with the be bass, or is that more involved?

If you have an iPhone, it's super easy - download the app AudioTools by Studio Six Digital.  It's not free but it's worth the $$.  I like them because they've built in comps for the iPhone mic into their measurements so you get real close to very accurate measures from your phone.  They have an FFT in their app, that's what you want because it displays a graph in real time about your in-room frequency response. 

Other than that, just play some full range pink noise through your speakers while sitting in the listening seat with your phone set to the FFT.  I usually pick a 2 second delay for the graph delay (refresh) settings.  But 'average is also good. 

[theclipper]

Thanks for the tip Tyson! I found a -20db pink noise track on Spotify and let it play. Here is the graph I got with my phone in the listening position. I don’t really know what to make of it. I left all settings as-is, aside from switching to 2s decay.

[DaveWin88]

You know theclipper the speakers are only going to convey what your front end can dish out. Not sure what amplifier you are using. Fireguy had a good point about speaker cables. Seating position shouldn't be an issue (they can be with mine) as yours are quite a bit taller than the M6 so your ears shouldn't be at tweeter height I would guess.

[Bingenito]

As for bass in that measurement you did not apply any smoothing but it looks like if you avg the response you are a few DB down right around 32-36hz which is what you should expect in room. As with any speaker as you move closer or further away you can be in a peak or null so assuming you are in about an equilateral triangle you an experiment moving forward and back 12-18” for a total of 24-36” variance and measure again.

From what I am seeing I would say that you are likely fine where you are.

Now as woofer compliance is achieved in mechanical breakin the bass will likely sound deeper. As for toe in try what I outline above. Happy listening! 

[Mr. Big]

Thanks for the feedback fellas, it’s greatly appreciated!

I ended up increasing the toe to about midway between neck and shoulder. It has helped to increase the focus of the vocals. I’m pretty much sitting in an equilateral triangle. Currently up to 60 hours or so.

I’ve also been experimenting with my GIK acoustic panels. I have always had 1 bass trap in each corner of the room, but decided to take the two I had in the rear corners and stacked them into the front corners, along with another GIK 244 panel behind each speaker (pic included). This has helped to clean up imaging and eliminate the room boom, while ultimately unmasking more of the details in the music. On the flip side, it also makes the speakers sound lean and thinner, but I’m wondering if that is just the true sound of them at this point in their evolution. If your guys, experience does the bass deepen and become more pronounced over time?

Tip, use a mono recording when you get the center image tight in the middle with dynamics you have it, so when you think you got it, toe-in some more, if you lose it then you know you nailed it for your room. Stereo music will then be perfect with good center and width.

[Cheytak.408]

A couple of things to consider.  With box speakers we tend to spread them as far apart as we can to get a wide soundstage.  This is not necessarily a good approach for open baffles.  OB speakers that are spread wide tend to give nebulous center images.  Vocals are too big and there is a lack of definition in orchestral recordings: the brass, string and horn sections don't lock in.

With OB you have to throw away all of the box speaker positioning methods that built great soundstages.

With OB, we have to make sure that the speakers are far enough out into the space to not compromise LF.  For open baffles to work their magic, the speakers need to be in positions that are narrower than box speaks.  The goal is to achieve a big, 180 degree soundstage, but retain image specificity.  Individual voices, instruments, etc. should be lifelike in size.

Speaker positioning is like real estate: location, location, location.

Start out with the speakers toed in about 5 degrees and move them around until the center image "locks".  Then move them around until that center image begins to lose it's magic and then adjust toe-in.  Rinse and repeat until the sound stage is BIG, W I D E and deep.  Live with this positioning for a week and then do it one more time to reach the final configuration.

Remember that optimum placement and toe is sometimes achieved fractionally.  It's a process.

Do NOT disregard the necessity for first reflection absorption or diffusion!   This will make or break the goal.

[theclipper]

You know theclipper the speakers are only going to convey what your front end can dish out. Not sure what amplifier you are using. Fireguy had a good point about speaker cables. Seating position shouldn't be an issue (they can be with mine) as yours are quite a bit taller than the M6 so your ears shouldn't be at tweeter height I would guess.

Yeah I totally get that. I know there is better gear out there, but I think I’ve at least got a pretty capable setup. I run a Don Sachs KT120 amp, Don Sachs Preamp, LAMM LP 2.1 phono stage and a Rega P8. I do most of my listening on vinyl, but will sometimes just plug my phone in to play Spotify. I think the middle of the tweeter is about at the very top of my ear when I’m sitting down.

As for bass in that measurement you did not apply any smoothing but it looks like if you avg the response you are a few DB down right around 32-36hz which is what you should expect in room. As with any speaker as you move closer or further away you can be in a peak or null so assuming you are in about an equilateral triangle you an experiment moving forward and back 12-18” for a total of 24-36” variance and measure again.

From what I am seeing I would say that you are likely fine where you are.

Now as woofer compliance is achieved in mechanical breakin the bass will likely sound deeper. As for toe in try what I outline above. Happy listening! 

Thanks for taking a peek at that graph. It’s my first time running any type of measurement like that, so I wasn’t really sure how to interpret the result. But glad it doesn’t seem to be too out of whack. I’ve got the speakers on the long wall to be able to get a better spread, so I can’t really move back much further or I’ll be too close to the rear wall. I’ll play around with it a bit though.

Mr. Big: Definitely familiar with that. Sometimes I think I’ve got it dialed in, but then I’ll play another track and realize something is still off. I readjusted again yesterday, and I think I’ve got them more evened out, but I’ll have to see throughout the week.

[Bingenito]

Try moving 2 of those GIK traps to the middle to cover the window/ blinds. Its a free, quick and easy listening test.

[DaveWin88]

Yeah I totally get that. I know there is better gear out there, but I think I’ve at least got a pretty capable setup. I run a Don Sachs KT120 amp, Don Sachs Preamp, LAMM LP 2.1 phono stage and a Rega P8. I do most of my listening on vinyl, but will sometimes just plug my phone in to play Spotify. I think the middle of the tweeter is about at the very top of my ear when I’m sitting down.

theclipper I was generalizing, but yeah you're in great shape for sure setup wise. Remember the bass is not going to be quite like a box speaker (not so visceral) I would imagine if you played something like One robots dream by Satriani you'll get bass. Keep this in mind also.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG3OJI90Nx0
Not saying to get subs, but bass is a challenge.

[Mr. Big]

Thanks for the feedback fellas, it’s greatly appreciated!

I ended up increasing the toe to about midway between neck and shoulder. It has helped to increase the focus of the vocals. I’m pretty much sitting in an equilateral triangle. Currently up to 60 hours or so.

I’ve also been experimenting with my GIK acoustic panels. I have always had 1 bass trap in each corner of the room, but decided to take the two I had in the rear corners and stacked them into the front corners, along with another GIK 244 panel behind each speaker (pic included). This has helped to clean up imaging and eliminate the room boom, while ultimately unmasking more of the details in the music. On the flip side it also makes the speakers sound lean and thinner, but I’m wondering if that is just the true sound of them at this point in their evolution. In you guys experience does the bass deepen and become more pronounced over time?



"I added that 244 behind each speaker and it thinned out the sound"

Well, that might be the issue, you would not keep it there. Perhaps on the side walls. I add a faux rubber plant tree to my room on the wall by where I sit, it is about 6' tall, and I could not believe that improved my room acoustics thus the sound became more focused in front of me and the bass became more dynamic. More so than a new piece of gear could have improved the reproduction of music. Rooms do matter.

[Mr. Big]

Note no glass pictures around the room they are the worse for reflecting sound around the room, only Canvas prints, acoustic panels, and even Flaux plants on top of each bass trap. So different materials and forms and shapes throughout the room. The room is neither too dead nor bright.

In the large window between the speakers, I have the blinds tilted up a bit (like a diffuser) with heavy drapes and one ASC 8" X 48" diffuser panel in the middle of that window behind the curtains, even that one panel made a huge improvement in center imaging. I am lucky to have my own loft area for my system, and lucky again to have no wall behind me where I sit, due to the loft being on the 2nd level with the family room below me, the wall in the family room is 50' from where the speakers sit.