[jbl]

Any suggestions for how one might reduce the localization of the sound coming from the speakers?  My speakers present a nice big soundstage but I still notice a lot of sound coming directly from the speakers.  Any ideas on how to make them disappear a little more? 

Is it a placement issue, electronics, or speaker issue?  Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.  I have Legacy Aeris speakers.

[FullRangeMan]

Any suggestions for how one might reduce the localization of the sound coming from the speakers?  My speakers present a nice big soundstage but I still notice a lot of sound coming directly from the speakers.  Any ideas on how to make them disappear a little more? 

Is it a placement issue, electronics, or speaker issue?  Any thoughts or ideas would be appreciated.  I have Legacy Aeris speakers.

This prob always happen when the speaker use a xover, you could try a 6'' fullrange driver with the Frugal Horn XL (not the Mk3) direct from the amp, no xover, zobel, notch filter etc... contact Dave at Planet 10:
https://www.planet10-hifi.com/
Unfortunately this speaker use a very complex xover, no less than 6 (six) cuts in the music signal.
System Type: 6 driver, 4.5 way
Crossover (Hz): 80Hz, 2.8k, 8k
Other option is the Lii Audio F15 $399/pair in the recommended Bass Reflex box at bottom of the page.
https://www.lii-audio.com/product/recommended-15-full-range-speaker-driver-for-music-loudspeaker-with-tube-amplifier-f-15-in-pair/

http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lii-audio-f15.html

[Letitroll98]

We'd have to know more about your room and current placement to make any judgement.  Have you tried wider and narrower placement?  Closer and further?  Toe in?  With those speakers I'd guess the electronics aren't lacking in quality so we can dispenser with any equipment failings, or that there's anything wrong with your choice of speakers.  I'm guessing either room, placement, or both.

[Mag]

I tried various Bryston amps, which I own, on my center channel, which is a Paradigm, an expensive model. IMO the SST/2 gave the illusion of the speaker disappearing.

So I suggest trying either a Bryston SST/2 or Cubed, which are their more linear amps or another Brand name linear amp. Beg, borrow or steal one from somewhere and give it a try.

[Rusty Jefferson]

We'd have to know more about your room and current placement to make any judgement....

Agreed. Perhaps a picture of your room with dimensions and some measurements of where the speakers are placed. Those speakers certainly have the ability to be transparent, especially if you're using the Wavelet.

[Tyson]

Try the LOTS setup that NRD illustrates here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyTkwkK8ON0

[WGH]

Are you using the Wavelet room correction?
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/legacy-aeris-with-wavelet-processor/

"Soundstage detail and depth become cleaner and more detailed, and imaging becomes notably more precise and natural in many recordings. The Aeris’ soundstage is very good even without room correction, but the speaker seems to act more like a point source with room correction engaged."


Downloadable Test Tracks for Setting Up Your Legacy Speakers
https://legacyaudio.com/news/test-tracks-for-setting-up-your-speakers


The Aeris is a "Directivity Controlled loudspeaker" so you should have a good image when listening off center. Legacy's Bill Dudleston explaines the Wavelet DSP:
https://youtu.be/Z0cuiVmS2BE




Looks like 7'- 8' apart with slight toe-in is what Legacy uses in their demo setups

[jbl]

Thank you all for the suggestions.

I am going to try the LOTS method inasmuch as my room and cabling will allow.  I had put the Aeris approximately where my last two speakers(Sonus Faber Grand Piano and Maggie 3.7i) were at as that spot sounded pretty good but perhaps that may not be such a good spot for the Aeris.  Guess that would have been too easy

I purchased the Aeris with the Wavelaunch processor as I figured at $25k it should sound pretty good without requiring the optional $8k processor.  Perhaps I was wrong on that assumption.

I have the Legacy iV-2 amp.  It was powering my Sonus and Maggies as well.  It is the best sounding amp I have owned and by far the best sounding amp on the Maggies.  I had previously tried Hegel, Parasound, Prima Luna, Emotiva, Accuphase, and Sanders Magtech.

[Letitroll98]

Yes, apparently you do need to buy another expense processor to make your $25k speakers sound good.  However it appears you can get it for only $3,500 if you trade in the old processor that you needed for the speakers.  Why this isn't included with the speakers at purchase I'm uncertain, but seems as if the Wavelet is a new addition from upmarket models?  For myself I'd feel a certain way about all of this, but they're not my speakers.  From the Stereophile article it seems to be worth the money.  Anyway, with all this processing going on any placement advice or upstream equipment recommendation should come right from the manufacturer, not us rubes on AC.

[FullRangeMan]

Yes, apparently you do need to buy another expensive processor to make your $25k speakers sound good.
+1 
And next year or so it will be out of fashion according the gods of magazines by the next better thing. 
And I think of all the money I spent on crap equipments throughout my life, they fooled me right.

[Wayner]

Most of the bass content is omni-directional, upper midrange and HF are the culprits. Some HF speakers tend to "beam" their energy and that results in this localization effect. So, one solution is to either raise the speaker or tilt it backwards a bit. It is a common belief that the tweeters should be at ear level, but I do not practice this policy, rather enjoy my speakers with the tweeter level above head height (like maybe a foot).

There is another reason for this and that is the position of the speakers themselves in relation to the room. Too close to the side walls will introduce side wall reflections that may give the illusion, or the speakers are simply too far apart and result in a hole in the middle (giving the illusion of localization). If you are not favoring elevating or tilting the speakers, I suggest you start moving them around, also playing with the toe-in angle. I have my Martin-Logans at a fairly extreme toe-in (left speaker aimed beyond my right should, right one the opposite) and the sound field is fairly large and the sound stage is continuous.

[richidoo]

Some ideas to improve imaging:
Remove decor clutter from inside the listening triangle and as much as possible around the triangle edges. Ideally, hard flat clean front wall with no objects above the midrange speakers inside the listening triangle from front wall to listener. No tall equipment racks. No coffee table. No soft furniture near the listener/speaker lines. Diffusion treatment on the front wall is good, but no absorption on front wall.

Use a level, and laser measurer to make sure that:
Speaker baffle is perfectly vertical
L/R Tweeters are exact same distance from front wall
Tweeters are same distance to listening position target
Listening position is on center line between speakers and exactly perpendicular to front wall
Toe angle (horizontal aim) to listening position is same on both speakers

This will make sure that the direct L/R sounds arrives simultaneously and the front wall reflections also arrive simultaneously. Overall clarity, tone quality, imaging, liveliness, dynamics, musicality all dramatically affected by these distances.

Measure the speaker distances to listening position by using a target object placed in your listening chair with dot to aim the laser from speaker to target. Shooting laser at speakers from your forehead not accurate.

1/8" makes a big difference, especially on the tweeter to front wall distance. The front wall reflection makes or breaks the sound across entire bandwidth. A 10kHz wavelength is 1.4" so a 0.125" error is 32 degree phase error, or ~18% phase distortion. These high frequency phase relationships is the data from which we perceive location. While 10% phase distortion at 10kHz is not going to kill the imaging, 10% phase distortion at 4kHz will throw you off and that's only 3/16" placement error. With very clear and powerful tweeters like your AMTs this is very audible. But the payoff is there when you align them well, or even close. But 3" off is wasting your investment, imo.

The best speaker distance to front wall is a position where the sound is a compromise between too much bass when it's too close to wall vs. smeared mid bass when it's too far from the front wall. Too much bass is easy to hear, so you can go just by that alone, this is the basis of the Wilson Speaker positioning system. But it's nice to be able to hear the smear when too far out, so you have two variables to play against each other to find the middle. Play midbass test tracks when setting this distance. I use Marc Johnson Overpass, and cello solo tracks. For my Legacy Focus that distance tweeter to front wall is ~35". Refer to Bill's placement notes in the manual. Your Aeris has same tweeters as mine, but slightly wider baffle. Most speakers are designed to sound best with support from front wall, with baffle 2-3' out. Yours are dipole midrange, floor driver and more sophisticated bass steering philosophy so it might not be the same.

Sidewall ray reflections enhance the illusion of space and should not be absorbed, but diffusion is OK at the reflection point. But if positions are dialed in you won't notice sidewall or ceiling or rear reflections.

Electronics do have a enormous effect on the quality of imaging and Aeris is definitely able to take advantage of the very finest electronics in the world so don't hesitate to upgrade, you will always get full value out of your electronics. I use Denafrips on my Focus now, and previously I used Purifi. These are way better than the ICE amplifiers legacy sells in terms of refinement and control, but ICE is definitely a low distortion and musical amp that's plenty good enough to make the positioning changes to hear excellent imaging. The Xylink wavelaunch processor is also good enough for excellent imaging, I've only heard it at shows and I was always impressed by the tone and clarity. You need a 4 channel DAC, so upgrade options are limited, and only two are available turn key from Legacy. Wavelet room correction is the only advantage over Xylinx, and it is good, but will not dramatically affect imaging.

[jbl]

Thank you again for the all the excellent ideas and suggestions.

Tilted the speaker back 3 degrees and toed out.  That helped with reducing localization and improved imaging.  Can still hear some music coming directly from speaker but not nearly as distinct as before.  Tweeter, mids, and bass seem better integrated now. 

Used laser level and measure to dial in distance and leveling speakers.  That has improved left/right balance of center image.

I am considering trying out the Gan amp.  I like the looks of the Nord Acoustics version.  Nice case, layout, and options for WBT binding posts. 

Also planning to rebuild the crossovers with upgraded parts at some point but is a longer term project.  The passive crossover is a bit of a disappointment in terms of parts quality and assembly for a speaker at this price point.  Poor quality soldering and relatively cheap parts such as sand cast resistors, iron core inductors, and stranded tin plated wire.  Hopefully that will also help.   

I think there is excellent potential for this speaker, just have to work at bringing it out.

[whydontumarryit]

“I have my Martin-Logans at a fairly extreme toe-in (left speaker aimed beyond my right should, right one the opposite) and the sound field is fairly large and the sound stage is continuous.”

I tried the OP's version of speaker/room optimization (over the last few months, maybe years)and frankly, yours seems to be more credible having coincidentally tried it during the last week or so still making minor adjustments.

Everyone knows the debilitating effects of the room and yet postioning that aggravates it is preferred by so many here just for the sake of fake ambience, consistently right sounding coloration and incoherent imaging and many other wrong things that are hard to describe other than saying what is right about an extreme toe-in setup. If Floyd tried it his opinion that stereo is defective would never have been opined.

The phantom part of the phantom center is gone. The body of instruments is palpable with a sound level that seems to be less a cast off of the off axis output of the speaker with that attendant reduction in levels and who knows what mess is included with it for any given speaker. With a higher average output and more dynamic range. The localization is eliminated that way and not by pointing the speaker as far away from your ears as possible.

The restricted separation (the whole point to this configuration) of each of the sound sources does make the soundstage continuous. The fairly large soundfield is also true although a trade off between one LP and moving back a bit giving you more depth instead.
In terms of ultimate accuracy, the angle vs room advantage allows a recording to reproduce an instrument with the correct timbre, not being butchered by side wall reflections.
The rear of the speaker facing the side wall rather than into the front corners breaks up the LF room modes. The usual LF room gain seems to be gone and most of the very low (<40hz) bass with it now that the rear is not facing into the corners of the room. The LF response sounds alot more uniform. Positioning closer to the front wall than what you're used to may be needed?

Likewise any problems with exaggerated HF and sibilance are gone now that more direct sound is heard rather than the unmanageable and inconsistent reflections that caused instuments to sound as if they were in the wrong place or the balance was always off when measurements indicated that not being the case.

Best of all any room treatments or piddling around with different amplification you thought necessary, now you can maybe save your money.