Low mu tubes for preamp usage (with pictures)

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Freo-1

Low mu tubes for preamp usage (with pictures)
« on: 1 Apr 2014, 12:42 am »
I was discussing new projects for amps/preamps with a buddy, and the subject of low mu tubes for use in a preamp came up.  He said he had made 12B4 preamps in the past with excellent results, so I suggested a preamp with 6AH4 tubes.

Well, he put a prototype together, based on the DIY 12B4 circuit, with a 5U4/5V4 rectifier. The results far exceed expectations.   

The 6AH4 is one dynamite tube for preamp applications.  Easily one of the best preamp tubes I've ever heard.  The low mu tube approach seems to be the way to go.  I've got it mated to a pair of 120 watt mono block amps with 12SN7 input and a quad of 1625 power tubes.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would bother with 6DJ8/6H30 tubes (with all the associated issues) when there are tubes like the 6AH4 readily available. 

I'm currently having a high end version of a 6AH4 preamp, based largely on the Thomas Mayer circuit (with a few small differences). Should be finished in a couple of weeks.  Will post some pics once completed. 
« Last Edit: 7 Jul 2014, 11:42 pm by Freo-1 »

Ericus Rex

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #1 on: 1 Apr 2014, 11:02 am »
Ooodles of vintage 6AH4 tubes on ebay for around $5 each!  Take that you 6DJ8 and 12AX7!

ltr317

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #2 on: 1 Apr 2014, 03:27 pm »
Good for you.  There are so many types of good sounding small signal tubes that manufacturers should experiment in their new designs.  :thumb:   

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #3 on: 2 Apr 2014, 09:34 pm »
There sure are a lot of good tubes available for use as line stages, phono preamps, and power amps.  After being in this hobby for a long while (IMHO),  the best way to get into tubes is to investigate the DIY arena.  One can use high quality NOS tubes, as opposed to the current production tubes that are lacking in a variety of areas.  You can use very quality parts as well as NOS tubes, and achieve sound quality that is cost prohibitive compared to commercially made tube gear.



Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #4 on: 6 Jul 2014, 08:00 pm »
Well, it took quite a bit longer to finish than I thought, but here is a picture of the 6AH4 Preamp:
asic

 

It's based on the Thomas Meyer design.  You wouldn't know to look at it, but there are four chokes, two output transformers, and a lot of power supply caps under the hood of this baby:

 


Some mods were made to the base design:  Khomozo stepped attenuator (Takmen REX upgrade) in the front,  Heyboer chokes and output transformers, and a slightly different power supply cap setup are the major deltas.  The tubes were all DC'ed, and 6DE4 dampers were uses for the power supply.

The sound from this preamp is outstanding.  Significantly better that the vast majority of 6DJ8/12AX7/6SN7 units.  Will post pics of the inside soon.

bardamu

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #5 on: 6 Jul 2014, 08:48 pm »
Hello ,
I was allready surprised by seeing so much chokes and choke input as well. But then i read the text and see Thomas Mayer. Now i know where all the copper from lightning protection is going. Sincere greetimngs, edward

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #6 on: 6 Jul 2014, 11:09 pm »
I'm hoping Roger (from Music Reference) can weigh in here, and provide some insight why there are not more low mu preamps available. 

So far, some of the best preamps I've heard to date are the DIY low mu designs. 

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #7 on: 6 Jul 2014, 11:47 pm »
Freo-1,

Thanks for the schematic. Yes these design are quite simple, only 1 problem though, they are expensive because of how much iron there is and they take up real estate. There are plenty of cottage industry companies that build preamps of this style. You just won't find them popular in bigger name tube companies. My headphone amp in my gallery I built 10 years ago is this style, although I used a WE396a/5670 in my design. 6CJ3 damper diodes.

They are incredibly popular with diyers.





The wiring has cleaned up significantly, these are old pics!

Best,
Anand.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #8 on: 7 Jul 2014, 12:18 am »
Very nice, Anand!  I think DIY is the way to go with tube gear.  They are not nearly as difficult to make as DIY SS, and there are a lot of schematics available for those who don't want to deal with circuit design. 

I personally am partial to octal small signal tubes.  They just seem to sound fuller bodied, and present a wide and deep soundstage.  I like the idea of using TV damper tubes for rectifier tubes. They are cheap, plentiful, and have a very stout build quality.   The 6AH4 was a vertical deflection tube, so it has outstanding slew rate and voltage handling characteristics.  Very stout and well built tubes. 

The iron is not cheap, but compared to Lundahl, getting the chokes/transformers made from Heyboer can be achieved at very reasonable prices.   The total cost to build this was still pretty reasonable.

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #9 on: 7 Jul 2014, 12:25 am »
Very nice, Anand!  I think DIY is the way to go with tube gear.  They are not nearly as difficult to make as DIY SS, and there are a lot of schematics available for those who don't want to deal with circuit design. 

I personally am partial to octaull small signal tubes.  They just seem to sound fuller bodied, and present a wide and deep soundstage.  I like the idea of using TV damper tubes for rectifier tubes. They are cheap, plentiful, and have a very stout beap, uild quality.   The 6AH4 was a vertical deflection tube, so it has outstanding slew rate and voltage handling characteristics.  Very stout and well built tubes. 

The iron is not cheap, but compared to Lundahl, getting the chokes/transformers made from Heyboer can be achieved at very reasonable prices.   The total cost to build this was still pretty reasonable.

I agree. In the interim 10 years I have a serious stash of 6SN7 GTA's, 12SX7's, type 76's, etc...just for fun and kicks. I'm sure microphony will be an issue with some of them but heh, it's a learning process.

Have fun.

Best,
Anand.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #10 on: 7 Jul 2014, 09:20 pm »
No major microphonics issues with the 6AH4 tube.  I am floored at just how good this sounds.  Thomas Meyer is one smart engineer with tube circuits, to be sure.  I think I may never go back to commercial tube gear ever again.  I can't begin to fathom just how much this would cost if commercially made.   :o

The DIY guys were right on about the low mu tube for preamps.   Would really like for Roger M. to provide some insight as to why they work so well, and why the low mu approach isn't used more often.   :scratch:

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #11 on: 7 Jul 2014, 10:01 pm »
No major microphonics issues with the 6AH4 tube.  I am floored at just how good this sounds.  Thomas Meyer is one smart engineer with tube circuits, to be sure.  I think I may never go back to commercial tube gear ever again.  I can't begin to fathom just how much this would cost if commercially made.   :o

The DIY guys were right on about the low mu tube for preamps.   Would really like for Roger M. to provide some insight as to why they work so well, and why the low mu approach isn't used more often.   :scratch:

Thanks for the invitation. I do whatever I can do encourage the DIY community. I looked at your schematic which appears fine. The reason you don't have any microphonic problems is you have a gain of about 2x (6 DB).  The 3.5 to 1 output transformer helps reduce all forms of noise. I have made a few preamps with output transformers like that. You have already touched on the reason we don't see these commercially. The transformers are expensive and a mystery to many tube designers.

It would be interesting to see some measurements of your preamp especially to see the frequency response and distortion as it is a single ended, gapped (I hope) transformer design.

Being one of the first to use the 6DJ8 in the RM-1 and RM-4 in 1978 I selected it for its low noise and constant gain (low distortion). By itself it has too much gain for a line stage and many designers don't know what to do about that problem. In the RM-5 I employed some local feedback to let the customer select his gain. I don't use it for everything, but when I make a phono or tape preamp that is the tube I use.

The 6SN7 is popular for its low mu but it is hard to find quiet ones. As to why others don't use low mu tubes, I have no idea other than many designers don't do much research into things other than what is already being done. How do you think I chose the 6DJ8 and became an early adopter of that tube?

poseidonsvoice

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Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #12 on: 7 Jul 2014, 10:12 pm »
Roger,

It's because you do R&D!

Anyway, thanks for weighing in and hope Freo-1 doesn't mind a shameless plug for Thomas Meyer's blog, it's a great read:

http://vinylsavor.blogspot.com/2012/03/tube-of-month-6ah4.html

Have fun! Now to order a hoard of 6AH4's!

Anand.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #13 on: 7 Jul 2014, 10:13 pm »
Thanks for the invitation. I do whatever I can do encourage the DIY community. I looked at your schematic which appears fine. The reason you don't have any microphonic problems is you have a gain of about 2x (6 DB).  The 3.5 to 1 output transformer helps reduce all forms of noise. I have made a few preamps with output transformers like that. You have already touched on the reason we don't see these commercially. The transformers are expensive and a mystery to many tube designers.

It would be interesting to see some measurements of your preamp especially to see the frequency response and distortion as it is a single ended, gapped (I hope) transformer design.

Being one of the first to use the 6DJ8 in the RM-1 and RM-4 in 1978 I selected it for its low noise and constant gain (low distortion). By itself it has too much gain for a line stage and many designers don't know what to do about that problem. In the RM-5 I employed some local feedback to let the customer select his gain. I don't use it for everything, but when I make a phono or tape preamp that is the tube I use.

The 6SN7 is popular for its low mu but it is hard to find quiet ones. As to why others don't use low mu tubes, I have no idea other than many designers don't do much research into things other than what is already being done. How do you think I chose the 6DJ8 and became an early adopter of that tube?

Roger, thank you very much for weighing in on this.  The output transformers were made by Heyboer, based on the the lundhal spec sheet and this circuit diagram.  He also made the four chokes.  Based on the performance I am getting from the 1625 amps (who made all the iron), I figured that the Heyboer iron would sound as good as the lundhal (at a MUCH better price point). 

I have limited tools to measure this.  I do know it is (subjectively) the quietest tube preamp I've owned to date. 

I have had several preamps with the 6DJ8.  I would agree that the tube has the potential to sound outstanding, but the microphonics issues with them drove me crazy!  I do have a NOS DAC (Wavelength Audio COSINE) with a single 6GM8 (similar tube) and output coupling transformers that I still enjoy very much.

Thanks Again, Roger!  Always value your insight.  :thumb:

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #14 on: 7 Jul 2014, 10:24 pm »
Roger, thank you very much for weighing in on this.  The output transformers were made by Heyboer, based on the the lundhal spec sheet and this circuit diagram.  He also made the four chokes.  Based on the performance I am getting from the 1625 amps (who made all the iron), I figured that the Heyboer iron would sound as good as the lundhal (at a MUCH better price point). 

I have limited tools to measure this.  I do know it is (subjectively) the quietest tube preamp I've owned to date. 

I have had several preamps with the 6DJ8.  I would agree that the tube has the potential to sound outstanding, but the microphonics issues with them drove me crazy!  I do have a NOS DAC (Wavelength Audio COSINE) with a single 6GM8 (similar tube) and output coupling transformers that I still enjoy very much.

Thanks Again, Roger!  Always value your insight.  :thumb:

Low noise and low microphonic 6DJ8/6922s are not always easy to find. It is why I created the RAM LABS Tube tester in 1981 so I could find the good ones. Testing by hand, as most still do, was just too laborious. Sometimes I send back whole batches when I find the yield is too low to bother with. What you find out there unselected may well be disappointing. However there is nothing lower noise for a low level application. A good one is as quiet as a JFET.....and sometimes better.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #15 on: 7 Jul 2014, 10:32 pm »
Low noise and low microphonic 6DJ8/6922s are not always easy to find. It is why I created the RAM LABS Tube tester in 1981 so I could find the good ones. Testing by hand, as most still do, was just too laborious. Sometimes I send back whole batches when I find the yield is too low to bother with. What you find out there unselected may well be disappointing. However there is nothing lower noise for a low level application. A good one is as quiet as a JFET.....and sometimes better.

That turned out to be a great idea.  I have bought them from you in the past to work with my old ARC SP-6E.  They were very quiet. 

I was lucky one time and bought a batch of 30 6DJ8 tubes that were made by Phillips Australia which were very good.  I gave them to my buddy for his projects.  I also found 7DJ8's seemed to work well with the ARC gear.

I have to say that I'm much more impressed with the 6AH4 preamp sound than any other tube so far.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage
« Reply #16 on: 7 Jul 2014, 11:41 pm »
As promised, here are some pics of the underside:

 

 

 

JoshK

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage (with pictures)
« Reply #17 on: 8 Jul 2014, 04:30 pm »
6T4 for a low mu preamp as well.   Its what AudioTropic used to use in their preamps.  Chosen for low noise/microphonic and low mu.

Freo-1

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage (with pictures)
« Reply #18 on: 8 Jul 2014, 08:14 pm »
6T4 for a low mu preamp as well.   Its what AudioTropic used to use in their preamps.  Chosen for low noise/microphonic and low mu.

Cool.  Thanks for that, Josh.  I'll let my buddy know about that tube.  He has made a few 12B4 preamps, but so far, the 6AH4 sounds the best to date.  I just like the sound from the octal tubes.  8)

BTW, TV damper tubes make great rectifiers.  No more fooling around with 5AR4's.   :lol:

Roger A. Modjeski

Re: Low mu tubes for preamp usage (with pictures)
« Reply #19 on: 8 Jul 2014, 10:40 pm »
Cool.  Thanks for that, Josh.  I'll let my buddy know about that tube.  He has made a few 12B4 preamps, but so far, the 6AH4 sounds the best to date.  I just like the sound from the octal tubes.  8)

BTW, TV damper tubes make great rectifiers.  No more fooling around with 5AR4's.   :lol:

Yes, damper tubes do make great rectifiers and exceed 5AR4s in many ways.

The 6T4 is interesting but it is a much smaller tube with higher mu. It would not be so good driving a transformer. The mu also varies a lot with plate current, more so than the 12B4 and 6AH4 which are lower and more constant mu. The last two I mentioned were used as vertical output tubes. A vertical amplifier in a TV set is basically a class A power amplifier and has to be very linear so as not to compress or expand the picture at the extreme top and bottom of the screen.  Vertical output tubes make the best SE output tubes. This preamp is basically a little power amp and could drive headphones with the right ratio transformer. The 6T4 is a UHF tuner tube and perhaps its variable mu was a design factor which we do not want for audio. Its the same problem I saw with the 6DJ8 vs 6ES8, the first being constant mu and the second variable. You can read about that here.  http://tubeaudiostore.com/suitof6dfora.html