AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => The Vinyl Circle => Topic started by: Hantra on 30 Jun 2003, 01:27 pm
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All:
I am interested in learning new methods to clean my vinyl. I am not sure that I am cleaning as well as I can. I have just been using tap water, and dishwashing detergent, and rinsing with distilled water, and alcohol.
So, how do you do it? I want details!
Thx!
B
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Good topic Hantra.
So far I haven't nailed my method down yet but I did purchase a used VPI HW16.5 record cleaner and some hunt brushes.
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I've always wondered how well those work. Are they worth it? Some folks say that you have to clean like normal, and THEN use it. What's the point!?
Let us know what you think. . .
B
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I have a fellow U of Chicago alumni vinyl products dealer that I have become chums with. He is a chemical engineer by training that like many, got into the industry because he was a music/audio fanatic. Even when I don't buy things from him (which he usually gives me great deals) he gives me his advice and opinions on things. He has been in this hobby for many multiples more than I have and has tried all the methods out there. Of course he now sells the VPIs, so his opinion isn't totally unbiased, but he has sold virtually all the products out there and has only kept selling the things he actually believes in. He is a die-hard VPI vacuum cleaner fan.
His rationale for why he likes them has to do with the vacuum. He believes that it is the best way to get all the stuff off the record once it has been cleaned since inevitably any cleaning method leaves behind residue. But he told me that if my collection wasn't more than a hundred records it would be a hard sell for even him. Mine is nearing 300 and with my love of finding good records in NYC which is a haven of good records both new and used that was the clencher.
I'll still probably give my dirtier records a good once over before I put them on the machine. I have noticed that even many of my "new" LPs have a fair amount of dust on them from the covers themselves or the manuf. process. I have heard many like to clean their new LPs with the machine too. I think I agree with this.
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disc doctor miracle cleaner and brushes
hunt brush
This combo is very affordable and does an incredible job. Sometimes an anti-static gun helps too.
I've used a VPI cleaner too. For $1 I can get a record cleaned at the local shop. It's definitely a lot quicker than the Disc Doctor.
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I use the KAB EV-1 Cleaner, a manual, wet scrub set-up designed just like the Nitty Gritty record cleaning system except that the user supplies the vacuum cleaner. This item is sold by Kevin Barrett at KABUSA and is a remarkable value. I use it with Nitty Gritty solution, the supplied velvet applicator and a VPI-style nylon brush. I've seen many of the other commercial vacuum-style cleaners in action and I can't imagine that they work any better than the KAB EV-1. Highly recommended.
H. Albert
Bangkok
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One reason that I am not a vinyl guy is the way an audiophile in college played his albums.
He used some kind of Kodak photgraphic fluid to wet the entire record and rested a 3 o4 4 inch brush across all the tracks...not for cleaning, but for playing each and every LP. After the LP played he set it against the wall to dry. The concept was that this way the LPs never even got dirty. The solution was supposedly practically residue-free (I am sure ther is always some residue) and did not harm the vinyl. I still remember the dark glass bottles with yellow labels and all the LPs leaning against the wall...
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Tons of stuff about record cleaning on Audio Asylum.
Meanwhile, here's what I do:
- Rinse the LP off under running tap water
- Soap up each side with a sponge and dishwashing detergent
- Scrub each side with a paintbrush
- Rinse each side under running tap water
- Pat dry between cotton towels
Dishwashing detergent can leave a slightly dulling residue, so before I play the record after cleaning, I go over each side once with a cotton ball moistened in isopropyl alcohol (91%), let it dry, then go over each side with a carbon fiber brush. From that point forward I just dust the LP with the carbon fiber brush before playing.
Excellent results. Have elimated ALL surface noise on most of my LPs.
WARNING: Isopropyl alcohol can chemically react with vinyl, making it less flexible. Use sparingly. I have not found any other product that gets vinyl as spotless, though, and have not had any problems.
P.S. I have heard vacuum-cleaned records, and I am not convinced that vacuum cleaning is more effective than thorough hand cleaning.
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I was thinking about this a little bit more and I believe that the Kodak fluid that he used was toxic, and not available to the public. I think you had to be a photo lab to get it. He had some connection.
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I rigged my little wet vac to squirt distilled water with a dash of denatured alcohol in it onto the record. I then rub it in a little with an old discwasher velvet thingy and suck it up with the vac. It leaves the surface nice and shiny and seems like it gets a lot of junk out. After that I only use a carbon fiber brush and an anti static gun. I would like to put a few drops of photo flow in the mix but have heard pros and cons so I have shyed away.
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I've always wondered how well those work. Are they worth it? Some folks say that you have to clean like normal, and THEN use it. What's the point!?
Let us know what you think. . .
B
Hiya;
The VPI is a manual machine so you have to apply the fluid and clean the record by hand and then use the vacuum to suck the debris off.
I'm lazy so use a Nitty Gritty which is fully automatic.
Put the record on, pump some fluid, scrub, vacuum.
A record is cleaned and ready to play in under 5 minutes.
Both machines are very effective.
And NOISY.
Only real vinyl fanatics do a hand clean then a machine clean and fuss about with pre-washes, post wash rinses and other laborious rituals.
Personally I would rather spend the time listening to music than fussing over surgical-like record hygiene.
cheerio
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One reason that I am not a vinyl guy is the way an audiophile in college played his albums.
He used some kind of Kodak photgraphic fluid to wet the entire record and rested a 3 o4 4 inch brush across all the tracks...not for cleaning, but for playing each and every LP. After the LP played he set it against the wall to dry. The concept was that this way the LPs never even got dirty. The solution was supposedly practically residue-free (I am sure ther is always some residue) and did not harm the vinyl. I s ...
When I had a Thorens TT in the 70's, the manual listed "Wet" playing and "Dry" with slightly different numbers for VTF or anti-skating (or both??) I thought the concept was to cut down friction or heat or something, damaging LP's less. I tried wet playing a few times, but all the wet LP's around the room became a pain.
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I use the "Discwasher" with the fluid and brush inside the handle.
Three drops on the leading edge, rub the juice across the edge with the bottom of the bottle of fluid. Then, rotate the record three times going through the juicy side, then pivot the velvet to the trailing edge and spin the record 3 more times with the dry side.
Ta-da! clean record.
If I had to do more, I don't think I'd bother. Plus, if I had to rinse off records in my sink, I feel certain I'd drop it, get coffee grounds on it, or otherwise harm the record somehow. Plus, all my older records are so scratched up, it doesn't matter.
I like the older black velvet better than the newer brown. I think it does a better job.
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Hi,
My cleaning method combined some of the techniques here. First, I wash the record under running tap water. Then place it on my Record Doctor 2 and with my concoction of Lab Grade Alcohol, distilled water, few drops of clear Dawn detergent and few drops of anti-static fluid. I spread the fluid with the record doctor brush until the LP side is fully coated. Then, I use a natural fiber art brush (soft) at approximately 45 degrees angle and rotate the LP manually until small bubbles forms on the top of the LP. Don't be afraid of these bubbles, these bubbles "lift" the dirt with them and you can literally see that the bubbles turned from white to brownish in color. After about 10 rotations, I turn the Lp aroud and vacuum the cleaned sides till dry then wash it again with just a combination of alcohol and distilled water this time without brushing. Voila! clean as a whistle and as quiet as the LP can get. Hope this helps.
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I was in Princeton Record Exchange (NJ) yesterday and asked how they cleaned the thousands of records they get in for resale. They laughed at me when asked which record cleaning machine they use.
I was told that the only method they use is isopropyl alcohol (91%) and paper towels (lint free.) Start from the center and go around the records to the outer edge.
It doesn't seem anal compulsive enough.
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That doesn't work. . .
I did that the other night to one, and I made it WORSE. It got MORE noisy after I did that. . .
B
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Having been a cleaner of vinyl for umpteen years the subject has been done to death on numerous BBs. A Vacuum method is almost essential as m ore damage can accrue from bacterial fungus than any cleaneing agent. So make sure they are dry before putting them back in the inner sleeve which probably put some of the dirt on the Lp in the first place???? The general answers to cleaning depends on what made them dirty.Distilled water will remove some unwanted items and leave the vinyl partially clean. A blend with Isopropyl alcohol and Kodak photoflow and or antistatic additives which in itself are detergents also helps also TAP WATER IS TOTAL NO NO due to its chemical / calcium content and WILL make the vinyl noisey :o . Other chemicals which occasionally are used Vinegar (acetic acid) and ammonia neither will damage vinyl in small quantities or
at low temperature.The statement that IPA damages vinyl is WRONG. :evil: (Chemist)
Washing in IPA or solution as stated will in fact dissolve certain contaminents and spread them evenly over the disc and then the Alcohol evaporates leaving the crud spread nicely.hence the need to vacuum the solution away and the Moth cleaner which suchs from below seems the correct approach.YES ITS VERY VERY NOISEY>
You should not play vinyl WET several reasons but migration of fluid up the stylus shank to the suspension is an important factor. :nono:
THE SUBJECT not mentioned is MRA mould release agent which is a silicone based compound left on the vinyl at pressing.This is most often a problem and the only chemicals which could break it down are now banned and the remainder damage vinyl. :oops: Hunt and Goldring Magic were two of the well known items. HOWEVER I am about to test
a new product which states it does breakdown remove this item and if
I see a response will report findings in several days time.Source UK.
FINALLY Lubricants You may have heard of these SQualin Oil ....This definitly works but is a thick viscous substance but it can be applied with a solvent (isoparrafin family) Not liked by commercial sellers as it appears to make the Lp less shiney.And thats what the customer wants?...D S R
:evil:
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All:
details-i use a vpi rec wash brush, i wet it, put a tiny droplet of dawn on my finger and rub it across the brush, it lathers up nicely.
I wet the record with the filtered water from the under sink filters. I soap up both sides of the record and scrub in hand about 20-30 degrees at a time all around both sides of the record.
i rinse the soap off under the filtered water rubbing fingers across the grooves until i dont feel the slipperiness of the dawn anymore.
THEN i use the sink dish sprayer vigorously (makes a watery mess) to get the last vestiges of the dawn out of the grooves. dry with a couple of paper towels or terry towel.
wave it around for a bit to finish drying and put on the platter, use the carbon fiber brush to get any fibers off and PLAY!
i had a nitty/advisor machine but the fan impellers self destructed. POS! my next rcm will be a vpi!!! meanwhile, this method has proved to be more than adequate.
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Guys (and gals, of course, 'xept I don't think there's many of them out there in audiophile land), sorry ... if you don't have the "real thing" then you make do with inferior substitutes!!
The "real thing" is a wet/vacuum cleaner - VPI, Nitty Gritty ... doesn't matter - even the original Keith Monks (from the '80s, I believe). If you can't afford one of these then you use brushes ... stand them up against the radiator to dry ... etc. etc..
If you CAN afford one of these fantastic devices ... then you get a very efficient and easy-to-use LP cleaner. And if you listen to vinyl then you NEED one of these things!
The next point of contention then becomes ... what mixture do you use to clean the LPs with??
Yes, you can pay mucho dollares for proprietary cleaning solutions but I'm afraid I use a simple one - 50% isopropyl alcohol / 50% sterile, non-pyrogenic water (used in surgery). Both of these you have to buy from a chemist ("drugstore" in the US).
Happy cleaning!
Andy
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Pretty basic but effective: Disc Doctor system for deep cleaning, store in new anti-static poly or poly lined paper sleeves, Nagaoka CL-152 before play, and if the humidity mandates an Audioquest anti-static brush once over.
Bob A
Here's a link to a Japanese site showing the Nagaoka CL-152.
http://www.otaiweb.com/player/acce.html
I've seen these go for between $80 and $115 on eBay.....Gesh -:(
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Follow up report on product called
Revive in the UK supplied by RATA
or Russ Andrews Turntable Acces.
As mention earlier all RCMs work very well
but unless you have a suitable chemical to
remove the MRA you will still be second best. :oops:
Apparantly after years of research since
Arklone P/Solvent 113 was banned this guy has
searched for a replacement and has come up
with a detergent type product in a small quantity
with distilled water. Having now tried a litre on about
two hundred Lps I can confirm it works. :D :D .Lowers
surface noise/vinyl roar , occasionly removing pops clicks and
in my opinion is not quite as good as the Goldring Magic solvent
and Lps should be cleaned with normal RCM chemicals after.
ie it doesnt seem to mix with IPA based cleaner. :evil: :idea:
Well worth while, hope someone can analyze this stuff and
maybe a better insight into how/why. :idea:
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I've been using the Disc Doctor method for some time now along with a shop vac. Most of my original LP's sound like new and they were cleaned years ago using the Discwasher system. The sound is much better using the doctor, very few pops and clicks.
I use an old turntable, lay down enough fluid so that I have a about an 1/8 of an inch of liquid in front of the brush. I go and forth 3 times around the entire LP and then run my finger over the brush in the sink, and then take off the excess fluid. I then rinse the brush in distilled water and brush the LP back and forth 2 more times before vacuuming. This gets the initial debris off the vinyl. I then use the second brush to remove the remaining fluid. I use a second small tub with clean distilled water and flood the LP one more time, again using the back and forth motion to deep clean the grooves. One more time with the vacuum and a 5 minute air dry and it's as clean as it can be.
Vacuuming is very important for getting all the grunge and debris out of the grooves. I use a small shop vac with the long nozzle attachment notched length-wise and covered with velvet, works great. The best thing you can do for your vinyl is give it a good thorough cleaning.
I also use Groove Glide and then just an Audioquest brush before each play. Yes it can be a lot of work but well worth it years down the road, the LP's will still sound like new.
Brian
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Hi Brian I would respectfully suggest you re read the articles...
Yes ordinary distilled water etc will leave the vinyl like new.In the event of having tunout of Isopropyl Alcohol ....I do it. Like New ?
What
You are saying that NEWequals a tiny amount of MOULD RELEASE AGENT present on the grooves and it is still there after cleaning...Its getting rid of the unwanted MRA that makes the record sound better. :nono:
If you have the equipment try measuring the friction levels.Once you have used anything that thins out/removes MRA you sure will know it.
Any your stylus WILL last a lot longer...Dave
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I use an old turntable, lay down enough fluid so that I have a about an 1/8 of an inch of liquid in front of the brush. I go and forth 3 times around the entire LP and then run my finger over the brush in the sink, and then take off the excess fluid. I ...
Brain,
Unfortunately I have to disappoint you: your LPs are near-terminally ruined. The Groove-Glide that you advocate is quite mean thing to use. Although it dose minimize the surface noise and have a number of other sort-of-"benefits" but it dose insert a common sonic signature-denominator into Tone of all records, all instrument, all voice and all music. Groove-Glide is a faulty product and should not be used. Regrettably, the Groove-Glide, if it was properly applied, could be very difficult to remove from the grooves, practically impossible without damaging of the records.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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Although it takes a lot more work than the vacum cleaning alternatives (e.g., VPI or Nitty Gritty), the Disc Doctor's record brushes and cleaning solution by Duane Goldmann, who I believe has a PhD in chemistry, is the best I have used. I found out about Goldman's brushes and cleaning fluid through the Phonogram list, which has some of the most rabid and knowledgeable vinyl fans anywhere on the internet (e.g., Richard Foster, Michael Fremer, Art Dudley, Stan Ricker, and Steve Hoffman all post there). I already owned a Nitty Gritty machine, which I felt was pretty competitive with the VPI and much more compact for my NYC apartment, and I think the Disc Doctor's stuff is a clear step up from both. That said, it really is far more time consuming and I usually don't use them unless the album is really, really dirty or just a super rare pressing. But if you want the best, there is nothing better I have tried (e.g., VPI's, Nitty Gritty, Dischwasher Cheap stuff, Last Cleaners, etc.). It can take a record cleaned on a vacum machine and bring out even more clarity. There was a Listener magazine article on different cleaning regimens that was very informative a few years back- may want to check that out if you can find it. Best of luck.
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Romy,
What do you propose as an efficient and non-detremental cleaning method?
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Romy,
What do you propose as an efficient and non-detremental cleaning method?
Just a plane-vanilla vacuum cleaning machine with a standard vacuum machine cleaning liquid. If a record too dirty then you might let excessive amount of the cleaning liquid sit on the records, soak and then repeat the wash cycle. There is no other why to clean the records securely. Although, some time when you have chemical dirt you may introduce an alternative fluid with more alcohol in it…
The distilled water soaking, deep scrubbing, the special chemicals and post-wash finishing are quite bogus methods and have mostly to do with somebody’s initiation to spent time of “doing smoothing”. A commercial antistatic blower that puffs air all over the TT helps as well…
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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Hi All,
Romy, are you suggesting that Disc Doctor Record Cleaner is detrimental to our vinyl, or that Groove-Glide is the culprit? Also do you feel that the record cleaning products such as Nitty Gritty's Pure 2 is sufficient with my Nitty Gritty Record Cleaning machine?
Thanks very much.
Rich Nelridge
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Hi All,
Romy, are you suggesting that Disc Doctor Record Cleaner is detrimental to our vinyl, or that Groove-Glide is the culprit? Also do you feel that the record cleaning products such as Nitty Gritty's Pure 2 is sufficient with my Nitty Gritty Record Cleaning machine?
Thanks very much.
Rich Nelridge
Nitty Gritty's Pure 2 is a wonderful and absolutely SUFFICIENT cleaner. If a record can not be cleaned by a run in a vacuum machine and washed by a cycle with (for instance) Pure 2 then the record should be trashed or be played with a dedicated “trash” cartridge.
Let make no wet fantasies: the records could be terminally dead due to a bad exposure, dirt and inaccurate use. The records that might be “saved” by a regular vacuum washing are fine. The records that do not sound good without any “intensive cleaning reanimation” will not sound well no mater what you do. Just trash the “dead” record and buy another one. Really, the amount of time you will be spending to perform a magic on a “kinky-dirty” record could be spent for masking more money and buying a new record from any “overpriced” dealer.
As far as nay “record aftershaves” or any other manifestation of “wet playing”… they must not be used.
Rgs,
Romy the Cat
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I was cleaning my records with a VPI HW16.5 and Nitty Gritty Cleaner. I wa scrubbing with the brush that came with the VPI. I was getting fairly good results. I kept on hearing people raving about the Disc Doctor brush and cleaner. I broke down and bought the stuff and within the last 2 weeks, utilized his recommended method.
The results are staggering. It's like a veil has been lifted. Pops and Clicks has been greatly reduced and in good percentage of records, they went away. I believe the brushes have a lot to do with the results, as they get down deep in the grooves, where the VPI brushes weren't.
Have a great day,
Brad
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The Russ Andrews cleaning system is--
http://www.russandrews.com/product.asp?lookup=1®ion=UK¤cy=GBP&pf_id=5066&customer_id=PAA2859102303470RGYSEHNCDNRLSEVR
(http://www.russandrews.com/images/products/5066l.jpg)
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Has anyone tried anything like Last's record preservative treatment? The sceptic in me says you shouldn't add anything alien to a record, but if it does what it says on the bottle I think I may give it a go.
While I find the quality of new vinyl is heaps better than it used to be in my record-buying heyday (late 70's & 80's) I suspect the plastic used may be softer. My new records seem to pick up wear & tear much more easily than mint second-hand ones I've bought. Perhaps a chemist can tell me if vinyl hardens with age?
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Hantra, I've been cleaning records for a lot of years. 98% of the time I play vinyl. I spend a lot of time at used record stores. A lot of hidden jems there. I just picked up a "PERFECT" copy od Neil Young's "After the gold rush". Get a VPI 16.5 record cleaner. About $450. I have used the following solutions: VPI, Nitty Gritty, Record Research record wash and Buggtussel "Vinyl Zyme". The best is the Buggtussel Vinyl Zyme.
http://www.buggtussel.com/vinylzyme.asp
If you have a no cost budget. Here is the ultimate record cleaner. $1800
http://www.smartdev.com/loricraft.html
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I use the Spin Clean. I can't speak to the more expensive systems discussed because I've never tried them, but for under 50 dollars, the Spin Clean takes plenty of crap off the record, does both sides at once, and I like that the LP is completely immersed in the cleaning solution.
I've had records bought from night clubs that had tons of nicotene (or whatever is in the brown residue from cigarrettes) and the Spin Clean makes those records look and sound new.
I'm sure the vacuum systems are really cool and do a great job, but unless I graduate to a TT worth umpteen thousands with all the corresponding dodads like mega buck carts, amps, etc, I'll stay with the Spin Clean and spend my cash on software!
System: MMF-5, Hagerman Bugle/Little Rat, Bottlehead Foreplay and Paramour, Ed's Horns.
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Some years ago, Eric Stubbs - writing in the long-defunct UK DIY magazine "Audio Conversions" - recommended the use of NAPTHA (e.g. Zippo lighter fluid) for removing mold release agent. He used it for years and was unable to detect any adverse results at all. I have found no reference to this use of the solvent since.
Anybody tried it?
Input from chemists?
Brian.
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Pretty basic but effective: Disc Doctor system for deep cleaning, store in new anti-static poly or poly lined paper sleeves, Nagaoka CL-152 before play, and if the humidity mandates an Audioquest anti-static brush once over.
Bob A
Here's a link to a Japanese site showing the Nagaoka CL-152.
http://www.otaiweb.com/player/acce.html
I've seen these go for between $80 and $115 on eBay.....Gesh -:(
The site would likely be helpful if one read;s Japanese ;-) I believe these
now run about $35 to $40 on EBay now.
Fred J
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I've been using the VPI 16.5 for about one year now and am sold. On the really dirty records two passes may be needed, but I've found that a good technique is key. The main issue is the vacuum, not the liquid--buy one of the standard ones in large quanity. For 78's make your own with distilled water and dish detergent--2 drops per quart.
My techique is to use the carbon fiber pad brush (not the stock one!) and soak the pad with about 10-12 drops of cleaning fluid first. I run my finger over the pad to spread the liquid out uniformly. Start the VPI and gently scrup the record with a back and forth motion in the grooves for about two rotations. Then turn on the vacuum and continue scrubbing for one revolution. Quit scubbing and let the vacuum go one more revolution.
I found that if the brush wasn't wetted first it could cause some light surface scratching. This technique has really made my records come alive.
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Has anyone tried anything like Last's record preservative treatment?
Last is reputed to be what it claims to be by a number of highly experienced credible vinylophiles, apparently what it does isn't a coating, but rather an alteration of the surface molecular structure (hardening)
OTOH if one is scrupulous about properly wet cleaning their vinyl initially and then place the LP in a quality poly lined sleeve and thereafter always use an Audioquest brush for every side before and after, cleans his stylus regularly and replaces it before it's seriously worn etc, and NEVER replays a side repeatedly without allowing 2 to 24 hour for the vinyls memory to recover it's original
dimensions, your vinyl will outlast you, the LAST just add's a secondary or additional protective safety factor.
"While I find the quality of new vinyl is heaps better than it used to be in my record-buying heyday (late 70's & 80's) I suspect the plastic used may be softer. My new records seem to pick up wear & tear much more easily than mint second-hand ones I've bought. Perhaps a chemist can tell me if vinyl hardens with age?
I'm not a chemist, but I think you should make certain that your cartridge is aligned properly, your stylus is in good condition a stylus can crack or shatter rather easily if it lights on a hard surface (the plith, top plate etc)
every analog person should have a 20 x to 30 x magnifier for occaisonal
superficial examination for damage, for wear there are some expert shop owners with many years of experience and a high quality 80x to 200x binocular microscope for wear, some claim it's near impossible unless you've previously examined the specific styli periodically, so lots of experts just replace their styli based on hours of operation 300 to 1500
generally the more contact area the longer the life so MR fine line and Shibata etc. have the longest lifespan elliptical is less and conical wears the fastest some manufacturers put less $ into polishing and shaping the diamond (Sumiko BP, BPS is an example) and obviously the cleaner
the LP's and stylus the longer the life quite dramatically, not replacing styli regularly is the proverbial dollar chasing a dime as your LP collections value is significantly greater than any stylus and is attrited
dramatically with certain types of damage or wear (like a lathe)
I wrote an extensive vinyl care article on the Lenco heaven site
http://www.mcqart.com/lenco/
Since returning to analog after 10 years and becoming obsessed with
aquiring used vinyl and learning to return it to a dead quiet backround and the original dynamics has really added a great deal of respect for the amazing durability of vinyl, properly cared for your records will sound as good 20 or 30 years from now as they do today and will easily outlast your CD's For almost 40 years I assumed vinyl is soft and a really arcane technology at best and the records are attrited steadily just from being played, which suprizingly I found is anything but the truth.
Regards Fred
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One reason that I am not a vinyl guy is the way an audiophile in college played his albums.
He used some kind of Kodak photgraphic fluid to wet the entire record and rested a 3 o4 4 inch brush across all the tracks...not for cleaning, but for playing each and every LP. After the LP played he set it against the wall to dry. The concept was that this way the LPs never even got dirty. The solution was supposedly practically residue-free (I am sure ther is always some residue) and did not harm the vinyl. I s ...
I think I must have missed something here ? Why would rooming with
an egocentric kook, keep you from being a vinyl fan ?
It would be analogous to saying I don't like cars because my friend used to put lapping compound and sand in his crankcase oil.
A curious fred ?
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Hiya;
The VPI is a manual machine so you have to apply the fluid and clean the record by hand and then use the vacuum to suck the debris off.
I'm lazy so use a Nitty Gritty which is fully automatic.
Put the record on, pump some fluid, scrub, vacuum.
A record is cleaned and ready to play in under 5 minutes.
Both machines are very effective.
And NOISY.
Only real vinyl fanatics do a hand clean then a machine clean and fuss about with pre-washes, post wash rinses and other laborious rituals.
...
I agree as far as the hand preclean etc.
The best RCM's are the Loricraft and the Kieth Monks they use industrial
vacuum pumps instead of vacuums they are extremely effective, very quiet and don't overheat like the Nitty gritty or VPI can short of investing $1800+ in a serious RCM I think it's very hard to beat a DIY RCM
which is simply an old thrift store turntable and a cheap small plastic
wet dry vacuum.
I used every manner of commercial and DIY RC solvent for 35 years
as well as every manner of scrubbing types of brushes etc.
I now use RRL Deep and RRL vinyl wash and a (no scrub) carbon fiber brush like an audioquest or knock off version
and my present record cleaning techniquenow is by far the easiest fastest and by far most effective
Regards Fredj
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I'm not a chemist, but I think you should make certain that your cartridge is aligned properly, your stylus is in good condition a stylus can crack or shatter rather easily if it lights on a hard surface (the plith, top plate etc)
every analog person should have a 20 x to 30 x magnifier for occaisonal
superficial examination for damage, for wear there are some expert shop owners with many years of experience and a high quality 80x to 200x binocular microscope for wear, some claim it's near impossible unle ...
I've returned to vinyl for many of the same reasons. Thought it would be interested to share my experience this evening with the group. I was mod'ing a 300B SET amp for a guy and plugged it in to listen to the results. I had just scored a bunch of records at an estate sale, including two identical DG copies of Sebelius and Karajan. One of the albums was still plastic wrapped with the 1975 date on the sticker. The other was opened, but clearly new--and it had the "DIGITALLY MASTERED: ULTRA QUIET" monikor plastered on the front and back.
I put it on and thought what did I do to those amps---this sounds like crap!!! So I pulled out my reference amps: Tucker Exempler Audio 45 using my RadTel circa -30's 45 tubes: and turned it back on. Same CRAP--sounded like a CD. I spent more money than I could possibly afford on a turntable just to get away from this sound. OK, so I'll break the new seal on the analog original and see what gives.
And the beauty was back--I could see Der Schwan von Tuonela gliding mystically across the lake. To be fair the Digital record did sound more quiet, but at what cost!!!
Unfortunately, CD sampling technology is mortally flawed, and no CD upgrade can fix the basic problem. which is that sampling rate is a minimum of four times to slow. There is an excellent MIT article which goes through the math for time varying signals, based on the final word size (16 bits for CD's). The number is about 8X or 160KHz sampling is minimum required to correctly reproduce 20KHz music. You can play games with filters to fix the jagged edgy sound, but it doesn't return the music that was lost.
The reality is that even with surface hiss, rumble, tonearm microphonics, cleaning machines, etc., vinyl is worth listening to because it sounds like the original music. CD's are great for cars and airplanes, but not for critical listening.
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Though I am not of the mindset of the majority of this forum, (I enjoy the sound quality of CDs, SACDs and DVD-A DVD's more than LPs), I am a long-time LP collector, (loads of stuff available on LP that’s not on the aforementioned), who has always used this method;
Run luke-warm tap water over both sides of the LP, gently 'scrub' it with mild soap if its a used / 'dirty' LP, shake it free of residual water, and play it slightly wet, (whatever sticks to the LP after a strong spin on a spindle device I have on hand).
I use an anti-static gun for the TT / lid / record and run an air-filtration appliance in the audio room as well.
What would be great is a clean-room environment altogether, but, alas, that is asking a bit much!
Andrew D.
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[quoteRun luke-warm tap water over both sides of the LP, gently 'scrub' it with mild soap if its a used / 'dirty' LP, shake it free of residual water, and play it slightly wet, (whatever sticks to the LP after a strong spin on a spindle device I ha ...[/quote]
Not to be contentious, but I heartily disagree I believe it's been conclusively established that playing wet can be quite destructive
as it makes mistracking very easy and the stylus as it richochettes
along the groove is putting little divots or scars where it impacts and these scars will continue to grow during subsequent plays those cavities
will hide dust and abrasives where they can be removed and your records will eventually become unacceptably noisy and your styli will only last a fraction of their useful lives.
There used to be several commercial wet play systems like Lenco
and properly wet playing requires entirely different VTF and anti skate settings and it was widely accepted that once wet played an LP must be wet played from then on.
I also believe that while some may go to the considerable hassle of kitchen sink cleaning when they could do an excellent complete and proper job with a $10 thrift store table and a cheap plastic wet/dry vac
doing it right at the sink requires quality lint free cloths to dab the records
dry after a distilled water rinse, and distilled is absolutely necessary as the mineral load in normal tap water is extremely destructive as the water evaporates leaving behind very abrasive (destructive) metalilic salts
(magnesium. calcium, etc, etc, etc) behind creating essentially a lapping compound which will start removing the high frequency information
the harmonics and air from the grooves and you will have an essentially lifeless recording in very short order.
If for some reason you arent willing to do a proper wet cleaning, you should just get an audioquest Carbon fiber brush and an Extatic brush
or Hunt brush and then use them to remove as much of the dust and abrasives as you can dry and then dispense with the wet cleaning altogether and your records will be in much better shape.
You may be able to slow or perhaps even arrest the ongoing damage
to the records you've already cleaned by applying LAST record preservative.
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I suspect an alternative to this would be using a side-tap system such as a reverse-osmosis water supply that is 'cleaner' than typical tap water. I must state however, I have an immaculate record collection, babied and cared for beyond anal... and they sound as good today as twenty years ago, using the method I described earlier. To clarify, the records are not really wet; they may be described as "retaining a slight humidity" as I spin them vigorously after the initial ‘wet’ cleaning.
Andrew D.
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I suspect an alternative to this would be using a side-tap system such as a reverse-osmosis water supply that is 'cleaner' than typical tap water. .
I have always used R.O. water for making up my own DIY RC solutions and rinse in the past as I'm also an aquariast and have a large capacity RO system, a good RO produces better than distilled
I ended up abandoning DIY solutions and ended up just using RRL super vinyl wash (no rinse needed) and a carbon fiber brush (no scrub needed)
with my DIY RCM and find it super fast easy and works superbly.
I'm a serious used vinyl aquisition addict I may end up at betty ford for the vinyl dependency at some point ;-) I clean a LOT of LP's and as a result have done a great deal of reading research and experimentationthe RRL super vinyl wash is a superb product and at $25 for 32 oz. will clean
an immense amount of LP's.
I believe a great deal of it's effectiveness is that they use low level industrial surfactants that are kept highly effective by not adding addition wetting agents most other solvent use which will dramatically reduce the power of the surfactant so the crud that scrubbed out will settle right back just deeper in the groove which is considerably compounded by not vacuuming, the RRL does alll the heavy lifting so just a carbon fiber brush's supple bristles gently abrading the groove is all that's required
to get everything into the solution, I find it amazing just how much crud
and grunge I remove from previously cleaned LP's that were dilligently scrubbed with various solvents rinsed and vacuumed, I get dead silent backrounds and clean dynamic and a lot of air from some very filthy
thrift and garage sale LP's
If you're interested I wrote an in depth article on the Brit. Lenco heaven site. where I explain in detail how to do the DIY RCM, and vinyl care in general
http://www.lencoheaven.com/
Regards Fred
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Folks,
A definitive article on cleaning all sorts of recorded media iis available from the National Library of Canada:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byauth/st-laurent/care.html
Suggestion for LPs:• The Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) recommends the use of nonionic, ethelyne oxide condensates surfactants to clean sound recordings. The CCI does not foresee long-term problems associated with the use of nonionic surfactants such as Tergitol. Tergitol 15-S-3 is an oil soluble surfactant and 15-S-9 is a water soluble surfactant. Combined they remove a wide range of dirt and greases and can safely be used on sound recordings. Use 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water. (These products are available in small quantities from TALAS (Division of Technical Library Service Inc) 213 West 35th Street, New York, N.Y. (212) 465-8722.) The recording must then be rinsed thoroughly with distilled water to eliminate any trace of detergent residue.
• Keep an airgun handy to blow off light surface dust.
Can be applied as you like, and is significantly cheaper than commercial solutions. I use a bath sonicator, and it works quite nicely. Takes only a min to do both sides.
"I am not responsible for my own opinions."
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I used to use LAST and Discwasher. LAST First (cute!) was the only product I've found that removed the Mold Release Agent, barium stearate if memory serves. I was very interested in the mention of naptha above for that reason. Any more opinions or experience with it? Used Nitty Gritty machine; First for the mold release, then clean the First and modified MRA off, then use LAST. That seemed to work well, but was terribly tiresome. Still using Discwasher and its brush each play for routine dust removal. Will probably start using Disc Doctor; Last First seems to be only available from one source that I know of, and it has gotten very expensive.
And the comments above about making sure the record is dry before replacing it in the jacket? TAKE THEM TO HEART!
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I read about windshield washing fluid.... It works ! I need to get a super fine brush, non-nylon. That will help a bit more.... I have dedicated soft pure cotton for drying, old washed many times things. I just started doing this today.... The vinyl I have that is in good shape, looks like the new stuff I have after a cleaning with it, looks like glass again, and they sound way better after, even if they looked clean and sounded decently clean.
The windshield washing fluid is CHEAP and the big point is there is no left over residue. What can I say, I found a use for my chemistry module box, with all the useless stuff inside I have no use for until next semester at the end.... That cost sixty dollars haha.
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I'm using Buggtussel as an occasional cleaner....and a Nitty Gritty Model One (the manual one) with Nitty Gritty's cleaner to get it spotless.
The two work on different issues with dirty vinyl to great effect.
After using the Nitty Gritty, I use Last Preservative on the record. I'm happy with the results of this ritual.
'rneedle' and I had a convo about using a sonicator/ultrasonic cleaner and the recommended commercial detergents from the Canadian Librarians....and it seems more than likely this is the best way to do it. But, my method(s) leave my records sounding great - so I'm gonna' stick with it for now.
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i have used the disc dr. miracle cleaner and brushes, along with a small shop vac, with a small attachment and a cotton cloth around the attachment, i use my old thorens platter on a small lazy susan, i cleaned my lp collection that i could find, they was under the nastiest water katrina for over two weeks, to my surprise the lps came out like new, it took a while but it was worth it, you really dont need a expensive cleaning machine,
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I have to second beachbum's routine: disc doctor's brushes and fluid combined with a vacuum cleaner are essentially the cat's meow. I got a used VPI 'cause I've got no DIY mechanical skills. But I must reiterate the combo; the VPI and included cleaner were OK but the VPI with the disc doctor stuff was a SUBSTANTIAL improvement. Can I say magnificent? Yes.
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i haven't got to the point of cleaning new lps but i think it is advised, i use my system to clean all used lps i buy,
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I'm using Power Force shower cleaner from Aldi, this way:
http://blueintheface.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=hifi&action=display&thread=1141427719
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I found a nice biodegrable window washing solution at The Home Depot (can't remeber the name but it's dark green and smells a little like witch hazel). It works pretty good, it's cheap and it's in concentrated form so you can mix it to what ever strength you like. It says on the bottle that it's streak free and does not require rinsing.
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For daily cleaning of vinyl I first use the Milty Zerostat gun on the side I am going to play, then I spray my 30 year old new Discwasher D4 brush with a solution I make myself which is 3/4 distilled and reverse osmosis water and 1/4 99% isopropyl alcohol to make the pad damp to pick up the dust. You can get 99% isopropyl from your local Rx, but they may have to order it. I have used this method for years with only positive effects. The records are noise free and clean.
If I buy a new or used record, I wash the vinyl in the laundry sink using dishwashing detergent with warm water in the tub to make bubbles. I then wet the record and spread and swirl the grooves with the bubbles using a 2" horse-hair soft bristle paint brush. On really dirty records, I use De-Solv-It and scrub with the brush. Then I rinse very well and dry with a soft cotton towel. Make sure the record is dry before storing it back in the jacket. I've been doing this for 35 years with no problems. I have never washed a record more than once, because I do the daily cleaning religiously. I actually have more than 1100+ records with almost no surface noise at all.
Now if someone knows how to get warps out, that would be something! (other than the 2K machine).
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Well, I looked at my vinyl cleaning ritual that I posted a couple pages back - and realized I've gotten more anal since. Anal yes, but I wouldn't continue at it unless it worked.
1. New or used vinyl gets a sweep of my carbon fibre brush first to clean off the topical dust and dirt.
2. Each side gets several sprays of Buggtussel Vinyl-Zime Gold - wiped down and around with a Trackmate record cleaning brush (great idea - not made any longer by the company). Like a Discwasher brush, only using soft organic cotton fibres and a spindle hole cut in the brush to twirl it around easily to track the grooves better.
3. Then, a complete cleaning with Micro Care Contact Cleaner C (packaged under the name Premier by Mircro Cleaner and sold at $19.95, or 30% more than generic Contact Cleaner C with is exactly the same). This removes any trace of mold release compound used in the processing of the vinyl.
4. At this point I usually play the record 1,2,3x as I please
5. The Contact Cleaner C tends to leave just a bit of residue still....so it goes on my Nitty Gritty 1.0 vacuum/sweep cleaner for a cycle. I bought a concentrated dose of (alcohol free) vinyl cleaner from LAT International (no longer made I think) that I've used for years. It works...I've probably still got a year's worth left. I'll find something else some day.
6. Each record is marked with a date of the Nitty Gritty Cleaning and Contact Cleaner C (ok, a BIT over-the-top anal - allright :wink:)
7. Finally, for the last important touch, the record is hit with some Last Record Preservative.
Frankly, the least important step among all these is the vacuum cleaning...once you do everything else, vacuum cleaning is almost redundant. The final step, with Last, works on a different level than cleaning...but works, nonetheless.
The sum total of all these steps is pristine vinyl....generally click ad pop free and without notable skipping. It's at a point with many records, that background noise is rendered a relative non-issue...allowing me to fully evaluate the album and playback equipment in their entirely.
These are painful indeed to do once...but they are 'one-time' only steps. The album for the rest of their existence will probably only get carbon fibre brushed in the future...with only another vacumming many years down the road.
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The Kodak solution mentioned a few times in the posts is called photo flow. It's used in the final rinsing of negatives to get all residues out of the film. It's known as a wetting agent, is very concentrated (like one drop per galon) and works. Always best to use distillated water.
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Out of curiosity, what is the best method , short of having a record cleaning machine to remove dried mold spots on LP's and is mold destructive permantly or removeable?
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I'm afraid I can't speak to the mold issue Fiji5555 raised, but after reading through the replies this morning I just wanted to add the cleaning regimen recommended by companies such as Rega and Linn. Linn says that the best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust, then clean the stylus. Their opinion is that the dust that inevitably settles on records is not harmful because it's on the surface, not down in the groove, and that most record cleaning devices end up forcing at least some of that dust down into the groove where it can do damage. I've followed their advice for over 20 years with no deleterious effect on my record collection, more peace of mind, and greater pleasure in listening from this relaxed, non-fussy approach to vinyl playback. Not that any of you are fussy, but for most of my early years of record playing, and cleaning, I think I focused more on the potential damage my records could sustain rather than on the pleasure of the music they contained.
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Brother Trent,
Howdy.
Your and Rega/Linn's method is indeed less fussy (and worthy for that alone :thumb:), but dust is not all you are concerned with in playback. Mold/bacteria forms in the grooves, mold release compounds are left after the original pressing of the vinyl and every time your stylus plows thru the grooves, it denigrates it.
A record cleaning method or machine that clears out the original dust, mold release compounds and bacteria accumulated along the way will provide you with a LOT more musical pleasure...albeit it at the cost of much fussiness and time :( To me, it's well worth it as I only perform these procedures once...then just clean the stylus regularly and clean the surface with a carbon brush.
It's about the same level of care that I use on CD's (wash with Kodak Optical Lens cleaner, apply goop that supposedly fills the cracks for better fidelity, apply a damping mat to the disc). In terms of time it's all about the same...the vital difference is that, to start, vinyl is more musically enjoyable (CD recording is more and more seriously flawed than vinyl, in my estimation) and each of the cleaning steps adds great further pleasure to a vinyl listening session.
Further, using LAST Record Preservative reduces groove 'blistering' (that's clicks and pops to our ears) up to 200 times. And, I forgot to mention in the above, I also apply LAST Stylast to the stylus tip (back to front motion) and this reduces friction to ally further groove blistering. It supposedly helps reduce stylus wear, as well, making it a good inventment (as a small bottle seems to last nearly forever) if you have expensive cartridges in your possession.
I've got an increasingly complicated life with too little time...yet I religiously clean my records in the ways mentioned above because it's very much worth it to me. If I didn't find substantial benefit in doing so, I woulda' bagged the process it long ago :)
I'm afraid I can't speak to the mold issue Fiji5555 raised, but after reading through the replies this morning I just wanted to add the cleaning regimen recommended by companies such as Rega and Linn. Linn says that the best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust, then clean the stylus. Their opinion is that the dust that inevitably settles on records is not harmful because it's on the surface, not down in the groove, and that most record cleaning devices end up forcing at least some of that dust down into the groove where it can do damage. I've followed their advice for over 20 years with no deleterious effect on my record collection, more peace of mind, and greater pleasure in listening from this relaxed, non-fussy approach to vinyl playback. Not that any of you are fussy, but for most of my early years of record playing, and cleaning, I think I focused more on the potential damage my records could sustain rather than on the pleasure of the music they contained.
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Out of curiosity, what is the best method , short of having a record cleaning machine to remove dried mold spots on LP's and is mold destructive permantly or removeable?
Fiji,
Contact Cleaner C by Microsorb (also known as Premier in audiophile packaging...for 30% more :evil:) almost eliminates the need for an electric record cleaner. Among other stuff it cleans out - it's very effective at eradicating mold release compounds once and for all. It's a simple spray can that treats a good 50 sides once you get the hand of it for about $14.00 at electronic supply houses.
As for mold/bacteria, there are a few formulations that kill it...I've use Buggtussel Vinylzyme (very simple spray and wipe clean). Supposedly, the LAT International record wash I have used for years has a anti-bacterial agent in it, so I have stopped buying the Buggtussel Vinylzyme.
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I have been buying and playing records for 40 years. If that alone is a testimonial, I don't know, but I just can't jump onto the commercial liquid cleaning products bandwagon.
First, let me say I would never put a dry brush to a record surface. You aren't cleaning anything. The dry brush generates static electricity and charges the record surface, turning the surface into a dust magnet. I always lightly mist my Discwasher brush with my water/alcohol formula and then brush the record surface and it actually picks up the dust and grime. You can see it on the brush. I can tell a record is in a good clean condition because the brush slips around the record surface like a freshly waxed car fender and I can hear that it is clean as there are no pops or clicks, unless its been scratched.
I have not had good luck buying new records. The quality has not been up to par with some of them. I have had much better luck buying used records at antique shops, at least around here anyway. Yes, you have to be fussy as many are in horrible condition, but I have found some true gems in the rough. Many of these gems sound better and are cleaner than the new records I have bought recently.
I do agree with almost all of you that records should be cleaned before playing. If you like to buy the commercial products, whatever, that's fine. I once thought about the VPI 16.5 cleaning machine, but then there are always replacements parts to buy and fluid and where do I put the damn thing?
Yes, my methods are farmer-like but I'm farmer-like. My method works, and the cost is next to nothing. I don't believe for one second that alcohol (in diluted form) will harm vinyl at all as I 40 years of proof. I'll get my 1965 Dylan mono out and give a listen...there just isn't any noise.
Other than that, I'm glad so many are listening to vinyl.
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I have been buying and playing records for 40 years. If that alone is a testimonial, I don't know, but I just can't jump onto the commercial liquid cleaning products bandwagon.
I am of the same school. I have been getting good results using a very inexpensive window cleaner I got at the Home Depot. It's called Professional Easy Glide Glass Cleaner. It dries streak free, won't irritate the skin and is biodegradable. I’ve also used it to clean glass and it does dry streak free so I have confidence that it's not leaving any residue on the record. So all I do to clean my records is to place them on a towel on a flat surface and use a lint free cloth saturated with the cleaning solution. Followed by a rinsing with a water only cloth and dry with another lint free cloth. All in all this is working for me and I'm having one hell of a time rediscovering all the lp's I have.
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And now for something completely different.
Here are two ideas I have used for trashed records that I wanted to digitize, you know the ones, crook, full of rubbish and more noise than a jet on takeoff, not for your collectibles.
Interestingly enough these two work so well you might decide to still play the LP after digitizing, and I would suggest you make a Raw digital copy first just in case it is a total mess up, though with care you should be OK.
PVA glue, white glue, woodwork glue! YEP.
Paint the glue undiluted and evenly over the LP and put a little bit of cling wrap on the outside edge, say half inch square. Now let the glue dry until it all looks shiny and black again. Then grab the cling wrap and lift up the edge, you can now start to peel the glue away, with luck it will all come off easilu enough, but if there are a few bits left fear not!
Now fill the tub with warm soapy water and scrub with a good quality paint brush, any left over glue will probably turn a liitle white and you should be able to brush is away or scrub it away with you finger nail or even a stiff tooth brush.
I know it sounds radical but it really works, won't solve issues of record wear though, but the next tip will help that a bit.
Now go out to the shed and grab the armour-all and a micro fibre cloth. Put a very small amount on the cloth and rub around the LP a couple of times. Now don't get all defensive these discs are for zeros and ones not forever playing.
What you will notice is that the LP sounds actually rather good to very good, but don't digitize yet. You have to play it through 3 times or so and it will sound better each time, I promise. What you will notice is that some black rubbish builds up on the stylus from playing, don't panic just clean it off with metho or similar, it comes off easy peasy. The cart will track the worn LP better as friction is lower.
OK so now you can digitize
Now just to get in before the flaming begins, I suggest try it yourself first on something you don't like, and do just one side, then you can flame me if you feel the need.
I have seen a couple of posts of people who used armour all and then got totally abused by everyone, I don't know about the long term but it sure works short term, I feel its use on LPs is very differnt to car dashboards. It is known to eventually damage a dash if not reapplied regularly as it dries the vinyl out, but remember a dash is in hot sun and open air an LP in a closed sleeve at mild temp (one would hope anyway). Anyhow for digitizing purposes on old LPs it does the business.
And now one final tidbit.....lets say you have a LP that has been cleaned and all is sweetness and light except for some nasty little bit of dirt in a groove that causes it to skip. Blutac friends. Just take a little bit and push it firmly onto the trouble spot and remove it, do it a couple of times if you like. Play the disc, with luck the problem has been taced away.
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Hi,
This is my first post but I have cleaned thousands of albums and here is the method that I have found to work the best. I am an audio dealer (TTVJ) and am not trying to promote anything - just telling you what works well for me...
I use a VPI 27 cleaning machine. I fill the liquid storage tank with distilled water. I squirt on Vinyl Zyme record cleaner and rotate the album 3-4 time in each direction. I then let it sit for 20-30 seconds to make sure the Vinyl Zyme does its thing and then vacuum it off. Being an audiophile nutcase, I then disperse the distilled water on the album and rotate it 2-3 times with the brush engaged and vacuum it off again. The record is now ready to play.
I have gotten excellent results cleaning it this way. You do not need anything more than a record cleaner that will vacuum, the solution and water off and a good wet brush to clean out the grooves. I do not recommend using anything other than distilled water for the rinse (we have very hard water where I live). And of course, never play your records when wet...
I hope this helps!
Todd
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here's what I do, but it's really nothing special or exotic:
I have a VPI 16.5 RCM, and like most everyone else had over heating problems.
I bought a couple "muffin fans" (they make them in many different diameters and voltages). Cut a hole in the box with a hole saw, and installed the fan. I bought two of them with the idea of pulling the hot air out while pushing cool air back inside with the other fan. One was enough! But did cut a second opening on the otherside. A three inch fan is way more than enough, and suspect a two inch fan will do the job very well.
For cleaners, I started out using disc washer fluid for many years along with their brush. Had one of their zerostat guns and an anti static mat they sold as well, but could see no improvment. Later I tried everything from Dawn dish soap to some stuff radio shack sold. I finally settled on Record last Deep Groove Cleaner and a home brew that I just put together one afternoon.
3oz lab grade Iso Alch.
4oz. lab grade distilled water (deionized water would be better)
1 teaspoon of Johnson's Baby Shampoo
1 Tablespoon of clear additive for your dishwasher
5 or 6 drops of photo finisher
this concoction really has worked well for me, and I now use it prior to using RRL. I might add that I've used about a dozen different brushes in the past, but seem to like the Hunt and the cheap radio shack red one. With this system I've cleaned several unlistenable LP's, and they actually turned out to be pretty quiet. You will have to clean the stylis after every record playing, as this stuff really brings the crud out for the stylis to pick up. In the future I'm going to by a hand held steam vac like Freemer used in Stereophile.
Gary
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Some of you might have followed the development of this cleaning fluid on Audiogon a couple of years ago. Long time vinyl aficionados were very enthusiastic about the products. Eventually, the creator, Paul Frumkin, ceased manufacturing it because it was too time consuming for Paul (who is an attorney).
Fortunately, the formula was purchased and is now being produced by Osage Audio Products.
Paul e-mailed me out of the blue last week and informed me Osage was granted a license but that he held control over the composition. If you followed the development of the original thread you'll remember I helped Paul with the ultrapure water issue (I have a degree in Aquatic Science and at the time was working at a nuke running the ultrapure water system). Back then he offered me a couple bottles of concentrate to try out but I was in a nomad status and had no RCM. Now I've taken up his offer since I got a Record Doctor in Audiogon for a mere $60... :drool:
It should be interesting.
That formula of yours sounds interesting, too. I don't recognize all the ingredients, though. Do you mean stuff like Kodak Photo-Flo? What about the dishwasher thing? Won't that hurt vinyl? Them no spot chemicals used to rinse lab glassware are usually composed of K2CRO4 (potassium dichromate).
***
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Hey Todd,
Welcome to AC. I've bought from you - once or maybe twice. The Vinyl-zyme stuff was quite good I bought from you.
Did Buggtussel cease to be and you are marketing it now?
Hope to see ya' around these parts a lot more. I know you camp out over at Headfi, mostly.
John / TCG
Hi,
This is my first post but I have cleaned thousands of albums and here is the method that I have found to work the best. I am an audio dealer (TTVJ) and am not trying to promote anything - just telling you what works well for me...
I use a VPI 27 cleaning machine. I fill the liquid storage tank with distilled water. I squirt on Vinyl Zyme record cleaner and rotate the album 3-4 time in each direction. I then let it sit for 20-30 seconds to make sure the Vinyl Zyme does its thing and then vacuum it off. Being an audiophile nutcase, I then disperse the distilled water on the album and rotate it 2-3 times with the brush engaged and vacuum it off again. The record is now ready to play.
I have gotten excellent results cleaning it this way. You do not need anything more than a record cleaner that will vacuum, the solution and water off and a good wet brush to clean out the grooves. I do not recommend using anything other than distilled water for the rinse (we have very hard water where I live). And of course, never play your records when wet...
I hope this helps!
Todd
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Easy Answer: Loricraft PRC-3 and L'Art du Son. The PRC-3 is the best recorded cleaner I've ever used. I've had 2 VPI machines. NO CONTEST!! L"Art du Son is a great Record Cleaning Solution. My records are dead quiet except where there is record wear. I'm hearing music within the music I never heard before. If you love vinyl go and buy a Loricraft PRC-3 and enjoy your records all over again!!
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If you love vinyl go and buy a Loricraft PRC-3 and enjoy your records all over again!!
I've noticed that the VPI and other automatic cleaners do not make enough contact with the record. With the manual Record Doctor I bought I can press one finger against the record at the suction hole and the vacuum pressure *substantially* increases. With an automatic machine this could not be easy to do. There's no way for me to compare a Loricraft with what I plan to do but I was taught by a mentor in my trade that the professional is able to compensate the idiosycracies of his equipment.
Since anyway a record must be scrubbed manually--Loricraft or no Loricraft--I am working on a method to do really good cleaning--and starting with a pre soak step. Still don't know what to use for a pre soak solution. I am aware that Paul Frumkin's cleaners have bested everything else out there. When I get to use them I'll see if a pre soak is needed for cleaning used record store purchases. Thing is, the heavier & stronger the soap/degreaser used, the more rinsing is needed. Frumkin's formula uses a smaller surfactant that is extremely effective yet much easier to rinse. Also, a final ultrapure water rinsing will aggresively dissolve remaining impurities left after surfactant vacuuming.
I'll report back after I do this experiment.
***
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Some of you might have followed the development of this cleaning fluid on Audiogon a couple of years ago. Long time vinyl aficionados were very enthusiastic about the products. Eventually, the creator, Paul Frumkin, ceased manufacturing it because it was too time consuming for Paul (who is an attorney).
Fortunately, the formula was purchased and is now being produced by Osage Audio Products.
Paul e-mailed me out of the blue last week and informed me Osage was granted a license but that he held control over the composition. If you followed the development of the original thread you'll remember I helped Paul with the ultrapure water issue (I have a degree in Aquatic Science and at the time was working at a nuke running the ultrapure water system). Back then he offered me a couple bottles of concentrate to try out but I was in a nomad status and had no RCM. Now I've taken up his offer since I got a Record Doctor in Audiogon for a mere $60... :drool:
It should be interesting.
That formula of yours sounds interesting, too. I don't recognize all the ingredients, though. Do you mean stuff like Kodak Photo-Flo? What about the dishwasher thing? Won't that hurt vinyl? Them no spot chemicals used to rinse lab glassware are usually composed of K2CRO4 (potassium dichromate).
***
The dishwasher stuff is an additive so you don't ruin good crystal. It sorta softens the water I guess. I tried it on some very fragile stuff in the sink, and it really helped. I got the idea about using Johnsons Baby Shampoo from a certain red head I used to date. She is a very well known fabric artest,and owned several looms and all the doo dads that go along wth them. Anyway she told me not to wash my sweaters in Woolite because it like most soaps left a film when rinsed. She said that baby shampoo was the best, so I tried her advice. She was right on, and you could see the difference. Later I cleaned a hand full of camera filters with the stuff (they were considered tobe junk due to contamination). They came out pretty clean, and then were ready for a true lense cleaning. My head got to rolling when I was cleaning an extremely filthy LP one day, and of course it worked pretty well (except I used way too much shampoo). Later on I ran across a couple home brew formulas that other analog folks had posted. This formula cleans so good for me that I almost never use my VPI 16.5 RCM anymore.
The four / three ratio of iso. alch. to water is pretty tight. The liquid drys very fast this way, and dosn't seem to suds up much at all. I went a little heavy on the Kodak stuff, and half that is probably enough. It will loosen the hardened stuff down in the grooves that you brush just can't pull up. you'll see it build up on the needle for a couple playings. The reason I think deionized water will be better is that it has no minerals in it. Even distilled water does to a certain extent. But remember deionized water will rust about anything including stainless steels in a very rapid fashion.
gary
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Here's my process for dirty records:
I use the Clearaudio Smart Matrix cleaner.
Before cleaning I use an Audioquest carbon fiber brush to kind of sweep the
heavy dust and dirt to the center of the record and then blow that off with compressed air.
Next, a 1 minute soak with Todd The Vinyl Junkie's Vinyl Zyme (extra strength)
Vacuum in one direction, soak again with regular strength and vacuum in
the opposite direction.
That has been working very well on some really stubborn records and I have
had great luck with Vinyl Zyme getting rid of icky fingerprints.
New records, I usually just clean in one direction with the Record Research Cleaner...
Once done, I slip the new clean record in a MoFi sleeve and call it a day!
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I use the method of glue. A white glue (PVC) that we use in wood, just put the white glue in all of the vinyl
and spread until it becomes all white, the glue will penetrate at the grooves and melt with all the debris. Wait 24hrs and remove it carefully and you will have 2 vinyl´s, a copy that is in the glue and a new one after this thing done!
Murillo
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My steps have changed in the past few months since I last wrote (several pages ago). Now I....
1. Clean with carbon fibre brush
2. Use LAST Power Cleaner
3. Use LAT International Kleer-Disk (cleaner and anti-bacterial) on the Nitty Gritty
4. Apply LAST Record Preservative
5. Clean with carbon fibre brush again
6. Place in new (poly-lined) sleeve
My stylus is brushed every few sides with the brush that comes with Stylast (by LAST) and then Stylast itself (in conjunction with Record Preservative, it reduces friction, and future record noise, quite well)
Then, I just enjoy 'em as I'll never repeat this arduous procedure ever again in the record's lifetime...
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Good call, keeping that stylus clean is essential!
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My steps have changed in the past few months since I last wrote (several pages ago). Now I....
1. Clean with carbon fibre brush
2. Use LAST Power Cleaner
3. Use LAT International Kleer-Disk (cleaner and anti-bacterial) on the Nitty Gritty
4. Apply LAST Record Preservative
5. Clean with carbon fibre brush again
6. Place in new (poly-lined) sleeve
Do you use the LAST Power Cleaner through the RCM or by hand? I just picked up a used VPI 16.5 and have been looking for a machine-friendly way to do effective cleaning. That is, as few (preferably no) manual steps either before or after the machine. Except maybe for LAST Preservative afterwards.
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Hey Tony,
Generally speaking...I buy new or used records and first only carbon fibre brush them and (manual) Power Clean them (often I will spritz the Kleer-Disk and manual clean quickly). I wait until I have a backlog of albums to Vacuum clean them all on my Nitty Gritty at once with Kleer-Disc...then I use the Record Preservative (manually).
You can Power Clean the record on your VPI (manually), but there is no provision to do it automatically... if yours is the VPI model that cleans automatically (maybe that's the HW-17 model that is fully auto?). You put three drops on the velvet brush supplied and sweep across the record surface briefly to use it.
The process I use now gives me goosebump quietness on most albums played now. It's really quite effective...but a humongous PIA. But, well worth it in the sonic end :D
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Have been using some stuff called BPI Ultrasonic "C" that I came across by accident. A liquid concentrate detergent stuff that is for cleaning optics, electronics, etc. in ultrasonic tanks. Have used it to clean some grungy old antique 78 records before putting them on the Philco! Has a nice magnetic RCA pickup with a big U magnet across a coil. Ca. 1930. Anyways, I have done the dish soap and water on really dirty vinyl I have gotten second hand. My own records never got that grungy. LIke the man said, alcohol can attack plasticizers in vinyl so I would not let it soak. Hey, we are talking dirty plastic here. Should be some labor intensive hand cleaning method that can rival using some 5000$ machinery that is more convenient, yes?
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Here is my record cleaning recipe:
1) Steam cleaned albums (using triple distilled water), from label outward to album. While album was "moist" then:
2) Applied disc doctor "miracle record cleaner" (diluted per recommendations with triple distilled water) on the albums with disc doctor record brush per instructions.
3) Rinsed album with triple distilled water, using a saturate disc doctor record brush.
4) Steam cleaned albums (using triple distilled water), from label outward to album edge.
5) Air dried albums overnight in a dish drainer.
After thoroughly dried, I placed the albums in poly-lined paper inner record sleeves ordered from Sleeve City. I really like these. Very Happy
NB
P.S. - Once an album is clean, I use a carbon brush fiber to clean the surface before playing each side.
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My cleaning regime:
1. Clean both sides with carbon fibre brush.
2. Use Spin Clean manual wet record washer with distilled water and spin clean cleaning fluid.
3. Dry with Spin Clean lint free cloth.
4. Apply LAST record preservative.
5. Place in new sleeve.
6. Before each play, clean with carbon fibre brush and clean stylus with Discwasher SC-2 cleaner and Discwasher stylus brush.
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I don't know if it's been mentioned, but I've never seen anything cut through mold on vinyl like Windex.
You can just spray it on, let it sit for about a minute and then wipe the mold off with a cloth.
It's cheap and I haven't noticed it damaging the vinyl either.
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I’ve been using AI 3 step cleaning solution and so far it’s been the best I’ve used so far
with my VPI 16.5. I use a different disc doctor brush for each step. So far very clean and pop free sound
even on used LPs.
http://www.audiointelligent.com/ (http://www.audiointelligent.com/)
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I use the Disc Doctor method described here:
http://www.discdoc.com/p14.html
Works very well.
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after further review i have changed my system of cleaning lps from my earlier post. knowing that vinyl is my choice for serious listening i broke down and got a VPI 16.5 and boy am i glad i did. after using my manual method the ease of a RCM is priceless. i now use Walkers prelude system. also a extra mat and vac tube, clean lps go into a mfsl jacket. the only negative is the static induced by the RCM has to be dealt with. if vinyl is your thing get a RCM you wont be sorry.
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Here's what I've had good success with lately.
1. apply a bead of MoFi Super Deep Record Cleaner, spread with a Mofi brush and let it soak for between 15 seconds up to a minute, depending on how dirty it is.
2. steam clean the record for 2 revolutions using a Shark steam cleaner with distilled water
3. scrub with the Mofi brush (eventually I'd like to have 1 brush to spread and 1 to scrub)
4. steam again, then vacuum with my KAB EV-1 RCM
5. apply a bead of Mofi Record Wash and scrub with a Mofi brush
6. another vacuum with the EV-1, and repeat for the other side
As I'm almost out of Mofi fluids, I'm going to try a Tergitol solution. Recommended by the Library of Congress, and for the price of 2 quarts Mofi stuff I can make 250 gallons of Tergitol solution.
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This sounds promising!
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gem/dandy.html
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Do any of you guys clean new records???
Upon reading the steam-cleaning thread on Audiogon, I have just grabbed a "Perfection hand Steamer" from a local Walgreen store. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Russell:
The major issue that the Gem Dandy has is the universal taboo against the use of tap water in cleaning records.
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AliG:
You haven't heard the urban legend of "mold release" on new records?
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LOL!!! "Mold release!"????! :o
I was looking at LAST Factory website, they certainly recommend people to clean NEW records. I ordered a few expensive new LPs ($50 each), not sure if I should clean them or not.... :scratch: :scratch:
AliG:
You haven't heard the urban legend of "mold release" on new records?
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The vinyl used in pressing records has a number of additives that allow it to be "worked" more easily. At one time, it was thought that some mold release agent was sprayed onto the small pucks of vinyl that were then pressed between the masters to allow the record to release cleanly. Well, there is nothing sprayed on the records, it doesn't happen.
It is believed by some that the agent is part of the compound being pressed. Why it migrates to the surface is without explanation. I don't believe that there is mold release agent left on the surface of the pressed LP, but if you do, it would make sense to clean it, the concept of a residue left on the record also helps to sell more cleaning compounds.
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Russell:
The major issue that the Gem Dandy has is the universal taboo against the use of tap water in cleaning records.
That notwithstanding, it appears to be incredibly effective, but then I use tap water all the time. I guess I'm not all that fussy - although the tap water around here is pretty clean, I think.
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LOL!!! "Mold release!"????! :o
I was looking at LAST Factory website, they certainly recommend people to clean NEW records. I ordered a few expensive new LPs ($50 each), not sure if I should clean them or not.... :scratch: :scratch:
I thought I had clean records with my prior regimen, then I added the LAST Power Cleaner in the past year....wow, a nice surprise was even cleaner sounding records. I also use LAST Record Preservative and Stylast.....I really love their stuff.
Many years ago I represented Trackmate(tm) in the US (they made record, CD, VHS cleaners...and still do for folks like Radio Shack) and the then-owner Joe Fritsch (who invented the cassette cleaner while an engineer at Allsop) told me the LAST chemicals are first rate...even if their application methods were a little poor.
He tried making a deal with the LAST folks back then, but they have always been a bit iconoclast in their methods.
Nonetheless, the LAST stuff is great and I've been using them for 20+ years now to good effect
John
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John (TheChairGuy)
Look what you have done :duh: :duh: :duh:
I just ordered LAST thanks to your endorsement of their products... :thumb:
I got one question, how frequent do you have to use the power cleaner to treat each record?
Thanks.
barry
LOL!!! "Mold release!"????! :o
I was looking at LAST Factory website, they certainly recommend people to clean NEW records. I ordered a few expensive new LPs ($50 each), not sure if I should clean them or not.... :scratch: :scratch:
I thought I had clean records with my prior regimen, then I added the LAST Power Cleaner in the past year....wow, a nice surprise was even cleaner sounding records. I also use LAST Record Preservative and Stylast.....I really love their stuff.
Many years ago I represented Trackmate(tm) in the US (they made record, CD, VHS cleaners...and still do for folks like Radio Shack) and the then-owner Joe Fritsch (who invented the cassette cleaner while an engineer at Allsop) told me the LAST chemicals are first rate...even if their application methods were a little poor.
He tried making a deal with the LAST folks back then, but they have always been a bit iconoclast in their methods.
Nonetheless, the LAST stuff is great and I've been using them for 20+ years now to good effect
John
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Barry,
The LAST Power Cleaner is a once and done treatment...1x only per record. Subsequent wet cleaning and you need only your everyday fluid of choice.
For 'everyday', I've used LAT International's Kleer-Disc stuff with a gallon of distilled water from any Grocery...it works very well, I have zero complaints (and is comparitively cheap vs. many others out there):http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/product/kleer-disk.html
If the LAST stuff ever didn't provide, I have a BIG mouth, I woulda' told the world :lol: You're in capable hands and products with LAST :thumb:
John
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John,
Thanks for the suggestion on Kleer-Disc! :thumb:
I need advice on two more things:
(1) Brushes - Is it worth paying $40 for a pair of DiscDoc Miracle Record Brush??
(2) I need to find something like this:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=HW-3008
So I can fit it on my existing vacuum cleaner hose and manually vacuum off the fluid after I brush/scrub the LP.
I am not looking to buy RCM because I don't have 1000 LPs yet.. :lol:
Thanks for helping out!
barry
Barry,
The LAST Power Cleaner is a once and done treatment...1x only per record. Subsequent wet cleaning and you need only your everyday fluid of choice.
For 'everyday', I've used LAT International's Kleer-Disc stuff with a gallon of distilled water from any Grocery...it works very well, I have zero complaints (and is comparitively cheap vs. many others out there):http://www.latinternational.com/index.php/product/kleer-disk.html
If the LAST stuff ever didn't provide, I have a BIG mouth, I woulda' told the world :lol: You're in capable hands and products with LAST :thumb:
John
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(OT)
Barry,
If you are into classical at all, I can get you started with some nice vinyl....
get you on your way to 1000+
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Brad..once I got my TT setup....(will take a few weeks because I'm still waiting for the Modwright Phono stage.).. I'll come by and borrow some LPs from you. There're just so many classical music floating around... every Tchaikovsky/Beethovan/Mozaart seemed to have been performed by 100 different composers. I just can't sample them all.. :duh:
(OT)
Barry,
If you are into classical at all, I can get you started with some nice vinyl....
get you on your way to 1000+
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Barry,
Don't know on the $40 brushes...I use 20 year old brush from a Trackmate cleaning system. You just need something soft (cotton), not too absorbent and lint-free...others probably have good ideas to save you $40.
I've tried many cleaning regimens, but nothing has equalled a record cleaning machine (mine's the cheapest Nitty Gritty...they ALL work more or less). Kleer-disc or anything else works best with a RCM (record cleaning machine).
The cheapest option is KABUSA.com....who buys Nitty Gritty cleaners without a motor inside and you supply your own vacuum. It think it's $159 now. You'll find using a vacuum method is invaluable to vinyl playback....once the groooves are cleaned thoroughly, your infinitessimally small stylus point will dig out more signal embedded in those grooves.
The distance between Redbook and vinyl grows ever wider in superiority when you go vacuum in my case.
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I've just received a bunch of new (sealed) records, and they all clicks and pops, so now I'm sold on the "school of thought" that cleaning new records is a must! But I must admit that my first attempt at cleaning new records wasn't very successful, I used the LAST power cleaner to clean "The Best of Diana Krall" LP but surprisingly it didn't kill the pops. This weekend I'm going to start steam-cleaning, I just picked up a PERFECTION steamer from Walgreen for $19 (with rebate), what a deal! :green:
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Anyone use a drop of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) per gallon cleaning solution?
Supposed to function as lubricant/emulsifier. Helps to detatch the shite.
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Anyone use a drop of ethylene glycol (antifreeze) per gallon cleaning solution?
Supposed to function as lubricant/emulsifier. Helps to detatch the shite.
No way I am bringing in antifreeze in the house. :thumbdown: My dog listens with me.
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Hey guys,this might be seen as somewhat crazy but oh what the heck it's a crazy hobby :lol: Have any of you guys tried WD-40 on your records?I tried it today for the first and I love what it has done to my vinyl.They now have a greasy feeling to them afterwards and a shine and the noise floor is much reduced leaving more detail and extended top end and tighter bass.I'm loving it so far.Regards derockster
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Right now, WD-40 might be OK, but later on it's going to collect dust and turn to gum, IMHO. It's a good lubricant and I use it all over the house and vehicles, but this could end up being trouble for you. At least do yourself a little test. See what happens to a couple of records over time. I just couldn't handle the smell everytime I wanted to play a record. Also later on it will stain your record sleeves, album covers and contaminate all your record cleaning brushes and stuff like that.
Wayner
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Thanks for your valued opinion Wayner,will bear it in mind.All I can do for now is comment on the here and now and I'm definitely loving it :D Will keep you posted.Cleaton
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As much as a record "lubricant" may keep down the noise floor, if you want transparency and detail you need a clean record so all those little ridgies can be reproduced accurately. You also need a clean stylus, so anything that could possibly gum up the little diamond or cantilever is a no-no.
I recently got a new 200 g album and was sorely disappointed in the sound of this high quality virgin vinyl. But it had the pressing lubricant on it, as do all records. Then I cleaned it and found out just how great it was. A dramatic improvement overall. You just have to get this stuff off.
I've found that a little extra downward tracking force also tends to play cleaner with less pops and clicks than a lighter tracking force. Just don't overdo it, since your stylus still needs to have a "sprung" suspension to work properly. An keep a clean needle as well, not just with a lint brush - use a proper stylus cleaner after you play a batch of records.
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When you guys say "scrub" how hard do you scrub and with what do you scrub?
Thanks
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Hey Wayner/guys maybe my explanation of my cleaning process wasn't as thorough as it should have been so I'm going to elaborate on the process some more.
1) spray on WD-40 and leave to soak for a minute or so
2)apply dish washing liquid and thoroughly rinse away with warm water
3)Allow to air dry(I know this is not the best thing but it'll have to do for now)
4)lastly just before playing I give the record a wipe with my anti static cloths
then it's onto the 1200 for playing aa
I listen really late into the night.It's now 11.07 pm my time and I'm still enjoying the results from this cleaning process.Regards derockster
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When you guys say "scrub" how hard do you scrub and with what do you scrub?
Thanks
MaxieRich,
It's generally a pretty soft bristle brush you use with vinyl...so even 'hard scrubbing' isn't really hard (like a stiffer bristle brush might be on pots and pans or floors)
The grooves are only 1/64" deep, so hard scrubbing is really relative term here.
The scrub should be 'thorough' (no areas missed), rather than truly hard per se.
Ciao, John
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So your actually using it as a petroleum cleaner, then washing it off with detergent. WD-40 is a very effective cleaner. I have a record that I am going to try your technique on. I'll see for myself how the WD washes out after it has done it's own cleaning job. After all, you don't want to leave any dishwashing detergent in the grooves, either.
Wayner
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Try adding a drop or two of Photoflow to the dishwashing solution. This will help break the natural surface tension that water will have on an oily surface and get it into the grooves.
An old DIY record cleaning solution trick.
Bob
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I am interested in learning new methods to clean my vinyl. I am not sure that I am cleaning as well as I can. I have just been using tap water, and dishwashing detergent, and rinsing with distilled water, and alcohol.
So, how do you do it? I want details!
Linn says that the best method of cleaning records is to let the stylus remove the dust, then clean the stylus. Their opinion is that the dust that inevitably settles on records is not harmful because it's on the surface, not down in the groove, and that most record cleaning devices end up forcing at least some of that dust down into the groove where it can do damage. I've followed their advice for over 20 years with no deleterious effect on my record collection, more peace of mind, and greater pleasure in listening from this relaxed, non-fussy approach to vinyl playback.
Well, I looked at my vinyl cleaning ritual that I posted a couple pages back - and realized I've gotten more anal since. . .
Addressing the original post, and in the spirit of change mentioned by TheChairGuy, I will confess to having recently become a cleaner of records. While I still agree with the Linn observations I posted a few pages ago, the reality is that most records I've purchased over the last several years have been used ones, often from the bargain bins and not looking exactly pristine. Not knowing what potentially damaging cleaning methods may have been applied to them over the years, the idea of adopting a safe, effective cleaning ritual has its appeal.
Details:
1. I bought a new Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 record cleaning machine along with a 4-pack of replacement Vac-Sweep fibers, replacement "velvet" for the record cleaning brush, a gallon of Pure 2 cleaning fluid, and the smoked acrylic dust cover.
2. In terms of process, I pretty much follow the directions in the owner's manual. The only significant change is that I don't start with "apply a liberal amount of record cleaning fluid to the fibers of the VAC-SWEEP." I found that no matter how I tried to do that, I ended up with more fluid running off and standing in little puddles on top of the machine than was being absorbed by the fibers. I now: a) put a record on the Nitty Gritty spindle; b) apply fluid directly to the record surface; c) spread the fluid around the record with the cleaning brush; and d) flip the record over. I follow the directions in the manual from that point on.
3. Following the manufacturer's recommendation for obtaining the best results, I clean every record with the Nitty Gritty just before every play. Some have told me this is overkill, but then I see them using an antistatic device and/or carbon fiber brush every time they play a previously-cleaned record. I understand their reasons, but I have come to trust the Nitty Gritty to safely remove "airborne dust, accidental finger grease, and incidental static charge." It really does take just a minute to do and has quickly become routine, not something that takes much thought or effort to perform.
4. I haven't yet purchased replacement inner sleaves for my records, though it's probably not a bad idea. Since I clean the records every time they're played, part of the benefit of new sleeves becomes a non-issue.
5. One complaint lodged against VPI and Nitty Gritty machines has been overheating during marathon cleaning sessions. That's a non-issue with my process since the machine gets about a 40-minute rest between the cleaning of each record. I've also never had any waste fluid to drain. Nitty Gritty says it will usually evaporate if just a few records are cleaned each day, and I have found that to be true with their fluid.
It's been three years since my previous post in this thread and, as I said above, I'm new to this record cleaning thing. Maybe by 2012 I'll have a different process to report.
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That's an interesting comment about RCM's motors overheating. UL requires all AC motors to be tested with locked rotor to comply with fire ratings required on all motors. So if a motor over heats and thermals out, what up with that?
Wayner :lol:
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That's an interesting comment about RCM's motors overheating. UL requires all AC motors to be tested with locked rotor to comply with fire ratings required on all motors. So if a motor over heats and thermals out, what up with that?
The Nitty Gritty manual warns that cleaning several records in one session can cause the unit to "get quite warm." They recommend a maximum of ten records per session. I once cleaned seven records in a session that I was taking to a friend's home for beer, pizza, and music appreciation, and the machine did indeed heat up quite a bit.
There have been just a couple comments here at Audio Circle about record cleaning machines overheating, but it's been a common topic at other forum sites. For casual home use, the things work fine. If someone regularly brings home a couple dozen records to clean all at once or decides to clean their entire collection in a weekend, the Nitty Gritty models and the VPI 16.5 might have some problems. One 16.5 user reported burning out two motors in a year on two different machines, but that was for severe service. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=239501&page=2
VPI's model 17 has been designed for cleaning large batches of vinyl without a break and, according to the link above, the Loricrafts do well also, though these come at a higher price. Used as described in my earlier post, I expect that my inexpensive Nitty Gritty Model 1.0 will provide excellent service. One audio dealer in my area uses that same model in his store and it has worked reliably for him for many years.
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I use a VPI 17F, cleaning in both directions. I have tried most of the commercially available cleaners and prefer Disc Doctor fluid with the Disc Doctor brushes for most cleaning. I also use LAST's RCM cleaner. For really dirty used records I use the Audio Intelligent two step cleaning products. I rinse with a reverse osmosis, deionized water I purchase form Culligan for 50 cents per gallon. According to Jim Pendleton at Audio Intelligent, the deionization is the key to the purest rinsing water available. I use the automatic fluid dispenser on the VPI 17F to dispense the rinsing water. I am very satisfied with the results.
I also believe it is absolutely essential to clean all new LPs before playing in order to remvoe the mold release compound and dust form the pressing plant. Not only does the record sound better, it keeps gunk off of your stylus.
Good listening to all
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... I rinse with a reverse osmosis, deionized water I purchase form Culligan for 50 cents per gallon. According to Jim Pendleton at Audio Intelligent, the deionization is the key to the purest rinsing water available. I use the automatic fluid dispenser on the VPI 17F to dispense the rinsing water. I am very satisfied with the results.
Good listening to all
Thanks, the rinse water is what I have been wondering about myself. The RO/DI water and a source (Culligan) nails it. I have been using just the distilled water from the grocery store.
Thanks
Kenreau
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let?s state from start thru the end.
the vynil discs ( 33 1/3 and 45 RPM ) are supposed to be dusty and worn from repeated use { no longer applicable thanks to cd technology }. that is my case here.
i wash my hands first prior to handling the cleaning process.
i use my ( bought as new ) my vpi 16.5 cleaning machine.
For playing the fresh cleaned disc, i too do clean the stylus with the record research fluid lp#9.
For recording straight to cd, i do use the antistatic gun to eliminate the cracking noises. if you want to really remove those surface noises, read the Corey Greenberg article printed in Audio magazine.
i purchased mine from music direct .com
i do this to listen some of my favorite music that was never available on cd discs.
this is my preferred method. i hope you aprove my style.
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Ok where do you get
Triton X-114 or photo plo
Reverse osmosis deionized water
99 pure isopropyl.
Going to make me some record cleaning solution but been having a hard time locating a source for this stuff figured i would mix up a big batch and pawn some off down at the local record store as they don't carry any ad there's always some one asking for some.
ED
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beats me!
i do use the water that were sold for use on cars?s batteries.
i mix it with the vpi cleaning fluid.
that is all.
it works very fine with my cleaning needs.
i mean i have more than 11 years of using this method.
nowdays vinyl lps are hard to find specially the brand new of good music.
do not risk your beloved collection on experiments.
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Ok where do you get
Reverse osmosis deionized water
ED
Ed,
I buy reverse osmosis deionized water from Culligan. Costs me 50 cents per gallon for a 5 gallon container. I bought their pump for $29 so I didn't have to lift and pour.
Laura
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Ok where do you get
Reverse osmosis deionized water
ED
Ed,
I buy reverse osmosis deionized water from Culligan. Costs me 50 cents per gallon for a 5 gallon container. I bought their pump for $29 so I didn't have to lift and pour.
Laura
When i called the culligan dealer out here in Pa. the lady who answerd the phone had never heard of reverse osmosis deionized water :lol: :scratch: and while i was waiting for her to run in the back and talk to some one who was more knowegiblr my phone went dead :lol: I'm pretty sure she thought i was sending her for a left handed smoke shifter or prince albert in a can. so i emailed them with exactly what i wanted. Hopefully they will get back to me
ED
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Ed,
We buy this water at our local grocery store by the gallon. I use it to make tea and my record cleaning fluid. I bet one of your local stores has a self filling water station. The water is really pure as the "reverse osmosis" process removes all of the minerals, which also makes the water really aggressive (at cleaning).
Wayner :D
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there is a filling station at Shop Rite but i have never looked into it. I will check it out.
Ed,
We buy this water at our local grocery store by the gallon. I use it to make tea and my record cleaning fluid. I bet one of your local stores has a self filling water station. The water is really pure as the "reverse osmosis" process removes all of the minerals, which also makes the water really aggressive (at cleaning).
Wayner :D
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Heres a link to my vinyl cleaning video this works for the best sounding and quietest records than any other method i ve tried.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6OjtKUZ048
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Hi Hantra,in the latest issue of Stereophile,Feb.2010,Micheal Fremmer does a little review on the record cleaner (Spin Clean).He said it really,really works,and whats really strange is that it costs only 59.95.The review sold me.I'm going to get one.You manually spin the records in a tub of water and solution by turning the record by pushing the edge.This way must be a money saver and makes sense to me.Check it out.I did not see a web site,try Googling.....Dawkus.
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Maybe one of you can explain this to me. I use the VPI 16.5 and have tried several types of record cleaning fluids:
VPI's, Nitty gritty, a home brew (mostly distilled water with a little 91% alcohol and a few drops of Dawn dish detergent), and now Mobile Fidelity. The first 3 seem to settle into the grooves while cleaning and before vacuuming. The MoFi seems to create little "lakes and streams" on the top of the record surface instead of disappearing down into the grooves. In all cases, clean records sound much quieter than without cleaning.
Any idea why MoFi's behaves differently???? :dunno:
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Maybe one of you can explain this to me. I use the VPI 16.5 and have tried several types of record cleaning fluids:
VPI's, Nitty gritty, a home brew (mostly distilled water with a little 91% alcohol and a few drops of Dawn dish detergent), and now Mobile Fidelity. The first 3 seem to settle into the grooves while cleaning and before vacuuming. The MoFi seems to create little "lakes and streams" on the top of the record surface instead of disappearing down into the grooves. In all cases, clean records sound much quieter than without cleaning.
Any idea why MoFi's behaves differently???? :dunno:
?Different surfactant properties? Probably more water and less alcohol...
Paul
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Exactly. The dawn is a surfactant. The MoFi must not contain onenor as much.
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Anybody hear about this one? Friend just sent this to me:
"I wanted to tell you about a way that some folks in town are cleaning dirty LP's: Tightbond II Wood Glue. Yeah, I know it sounds so weird but you apply it thickly on the record and push into the grooves with a credit card, avoiding the label of course. Then you let it dry on a flat surface, and peel. We've tried on a few and it's amazing what grit and grime sticks & releases!"
Doesn't sound like it would go through a VPI or Loricraft, does it!
Paul
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I use a compressed air aerosol can. As the record is spinning, before I put the needle down, I spray air over the surface blowing off any debris.
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Anybody hear about this one? Friend just sent this to me:
Paul
Paul, I haven't tried it but this thread is all about it ! .......
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99837
Thankfully I don't own any records in that bad of shape
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Nice way to spill your secrets easily.I was thinking about this that how i can get rid of from them.Thank you for this sharing with us.
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I like it cheap, simple and effective........next week I'll post pic's of a really neat label saver I'm putting together for under $10
http://www.gallagher.com/clean_records.htm
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This is a lable saver I just built to save the $50 in the thread above.....Chuck
http://vintageelectronics.betamaxcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375
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Well, just went through 8 records, all $1 flea market specials, with the Spin Clean.
They're all much cleaner, and the tub is showing the debris removed from the vinyl, but still too much surface noise.
Guess it's on to steam next.
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I have not read all the pages on this topic but I thought I would mention one product that really seems to work. It is some special silicon formula which you pour over you record and allow it to dry then peal it off together with all the dirt from the grooves. It is called REVIRGINIZER and is made in Queensland.
The link is ww.recordrevirginizer.com I have no connection with the people who make this, in fact it was advertised in a HiFi mag.
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Well, just went through 8 records, all $1 flea market specials, with the Spin Clean.
They're all much cleaner, and the tub is showing the debris removed from the vinyl, but still too much surface noise.
Guess it's on to steam next.
ETC,
Don't be surprised if they're just damaged records. No amount of cleaning will repair damaged vinyl. Going 0 for 8 in the dollar bin is not unusual. But once in a while you find a gem that makes it all worthwhile.
Scott
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Thanks for the tip on revirginizer... Just bought some well see how it works!
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Pumpkinman just lent me his manual, diy VPI clone, and I just bought some 91% Iso Alch, time to try again. Mixing distilled water to alcohol at 3 to 1 ratio, a few drops of detergent, add to a squirt bottle. Take the records outside to the diy spinner, pulled the brushes from the spin-clean, (spinclean worked, but not enough for the really dirty things), spin 'em and vacuum 'em.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=36986)
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And here's why, got a ton of old classical, many boxed sets pictured here, plus 3 more boxes of loose albums, all dirty to greater or lesser extent,
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=36987)
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And once cleaned, I just installed Audacity on my old htpc to rip them to flac.
This may be an all Winter project.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=36988)
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I tried many cleaning ideas, but in the end got the best results playing my records wet, using plain old tap water applied with my nice, expensive anti-static cleaning brush. The only caveat is you can never go back to playing them dry as the dirt seemed to build up at the bottom of the grooves.
Most cleaning solutions seemed to make the surface noise worse or clog the stylus.
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You're kidding, right?
Moisture may wick up the stylus and damage parts in the cartridge.
And I don't know about you, but my tap water is horrid with contaminants that would be left behind when the H2O dries.
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Oh no! We're not getting into the ol' wet play vs dry play debates are we? They're nearly as destructive and futile as cable debates. However, as I see it it's a decision based on the condition of your record collection. If it's trashed, all $1 bin albums and the like, wet play may be a viable option to render them to playable condition. For myself, I use badly scratched and damaged lp's for skeet practice at the back of the estate, so I would never consider wet play as an option. (My butler used to get worn out throwing them, but there are so few of them lately that I've had to go back to clay pigeons) However wet play can work well for some, and they've been doing it for years.
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For myself, I use badly scratched and damaged lp's for skeet practice at the back of the estate...
That's cheating...their bigger than the clay pigeons..... :lol:
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You're kidding, right?
Moisture may wick up the stylus and damage parts in the cartridge.
And I don't know about you, but my tap water is horrid with contaminants that would be left behind when the H2O dries.
Pumpkins never play them wet Gene :lol:
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Pumpkins never play them wet Gene :lol:
Sounds like a Halloween movie title.
Paul
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Pumpkins never play them wet Gene :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=37002)
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I lived in a humid climate and my problem was that my LP's got mildew growing on them. This caused a lot of surface noise unless I played them wet. I used some pretty darn high end cartridges and never had an issue with water damaging anything. I had more trouble with "cleaning fluids" that ate away at the glue on the stylus.
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For old records a good ol steam cleaning. first spray some Greenworks cleaner on LP then hold steamer 12" away and steam away. Picked one up at Best Buy around $40 for house cleaning. Never thought to give it a try until I read the Mapleshade catalog. Even the records you thought were pristine clean are not. All new LPs get steamed before playing.
Once steamed and stored a VPI cleaning before play but usually not necassary . The antistatic brush from Mapleshade rids any static buildup. For the sytus a 3M diamond polishing strip a la Linn. very satisfied with the results. Give it a try.
charles
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Has anyone actually analyzed what is in the VPI record cleaning solution?
I've been trying to find a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) with no luck.
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@ SteveFord,
the VPI model 16 washing machine has been with me for several years. I use it with the VPI washing solution, purchased in its two versions (ready-to-use, and concentrated), and sometimes I add isopropyl alcohol according to VPI instructions.
Although this process has consistently given me pristinely clean LPs, I don't know the ingredients of the VPI washing formula. Adding the optional alcohol makes me feel better about removal of grease from the LP surface, but I have not actually done with / without testing.
Sorry for not answering your question, but washed LPs here have consistently played perfectly, with absolutely NO sings of untoward washing effects. I would probably build a system such as DaveyW if the VPI machine were not already working to my full satisfaction.
Good luck,
bauzace50
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I have added steaming to my cleaning routine. I hold the portable steamer about 4" from the record while it is spinning on my VPI-17. I use a steam, clean & scrub, steam, then rinse cycle with excellent reults.
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I have added steaming to my cleaning routine. I hold the portable steamer about 4" from the record while it is spinning on my VPI-17. I use a steam, clean & scrub, steam, then rinse cycle with excellent reults.
What, no enzyme?
Paul
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What, no enzyme?
Paul
The enzyme is in the clean and scrub stage with bizzyme :thumb:
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The enzyme is in the clean and scrub stage with bizzyme :thumb:
Ahhhh! I'm going to my Linn dealer today and he has discerning ears and tastes. I'm giving him some enzyme, wonder if he'll like it...........
Paul
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Help! Anybody know if motor oil can replace the bering oil in a turntable platter well? I'm out of the lubricant supplied. Anybody have a suggestion about this? Thanks.
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What turntable? I believe that VPI states 10W40 non detergent but people are just substituting Mobil 1 if they have that lying around.
Viscosity breakdown at higher RPMs isn't exactly a consideration...
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A Nottingham. Did I read that correctly? VPI says 10W40 non detergent?
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Jim,
You might want to check this thread out at Agon FWIW.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1005457853&openfrom&1&4#1
NB
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I just have. Guess I'm good to go. Thanks a bunch, fellas.
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I make and bottle my own brew of cleaning fluid for dirty records as well as a light duty cleaner I've labeled "touch up" for normal use. The cleaner needs to be rinsed (works well with vacuum's) and the touch up can be used with a lint free cloth or simular. Used to sell it at Apple Records back in the day :wink:
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Products used: Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs Plus enzyme cleaner, Mo-Fi Pure rinse water and LP#9 stylus cleaner.
Machine: I own a 16.5 but prefer my homebuilt unit which uses a $30 wet/dry vac, and a custom made pick up tube which is covered with white velvet. White because it is easy to visually inspect for debris. It gets rinsed after each use to avoid cross contamination and stored in a Tupperwear when not in use. Each fluid used has its own cleaning brush, which is rinsed after use and stored in a Tuperwear to avoid environmental nasties such as dust, etc. The cleaned LP is then stored in a new inner sleeve.
It might sound anal, but my records are clean, and they are far less likely to have debris from one spread onto the next.
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Hi.
(1) I tried many cleaning ideas, but in the end got the best results playing my records wet,
(2) using plain old tap water applied with my nice, expensive anti-static cleaning brush.
(3) The only caveat is you can never go back to playing them dry as the dirt seemed to build up at the bottom of the grooves.
(4) Most cleaning solutions seemed to make the surface noise worse or clog the stylus.
(1) Bingo!! WET play is the BEST vinyl play. I've been playing WET my many hundreds of LPs (mind you, 95% are recycles from thrift stores) for last few years. All play like a chime! NO no no problem at all. Sonically, music sounds so much more fluid & vivid than dry play.
(2) NO no no tape water :duh: bud. Tape waters are usually so contamminated with chemicals, & debris which can only ruin any vinyl finally.
You know what I use for wet play since day one? Pure steam distilled ozonated water, available cheaply in 4-litre bottle from local drug stores. It works bigtime. No need to spend big bucks to get from those cleaning fluids vendors. :nono:
(3) I think I'd somehow disagree with you. I say so from my past experience.
I was not so sure until I went thru an audition session in an hi-end audio boutique on a SWiss-made USD24,500 phono-preamp using a couple of my wet play LPs, played DRY on an expensive hi-end brandname TT. MY both wet-played LPs sounded excellent on dry play !!!
(4) YES, most, if not all, commercial available vinyl cleaning fluids are made of chemicals mixed in water. Only pure distilled water does not leave any residue in the grooves. I can prove it with my years wet-play expereience with pure distilled water.
I am very glad know a wet play fan like you. :P
c-J
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." quoted Albert Einstein.
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Hi.
(1) You're kidding, right?
(2) Moisture may wick up the stylus and damage parts in the cartridge.
(3) And I don't know about you, but my tap water is horrid with contaminants that would be left behind when the H2O dries.
(1) NO Kidding at all. Wet play sounds more fluid, vivid & much much more quiet than dry play. No need any anti-static devices as moisture in the grooves already kills ALL tracking friction statics. This is physics.
(2) Contrary to tons of hearsays or negative allegations out there, my years WET play experience proves there is NO, repeat no, damage done to my MM cartridge body inside out nor its diamond stylus as my wet-play music never get worse if not better since day one.
(3) Fully agreed. No tape water please, being so contaminated with chemicals & debris.
99% of my many many hundreds of LPs are recyles from thrift stores (as cheapas 0.75 buck a pop!!!) are always rinsed with steam distilled ozanated water (available in 4-lire bottle for on sale only 99 cents a bottle from local drug stores) & scrubbed with a linn-free cloth & then hung dry before use.
Wet play with the same distilled water applied to the spinning disc with a nylon painter brush (dirt cheap from any hardwsre store).
No chemicals for my vinyl please. My vinyl music (from Pavarotti to Acker Bilk) can't stand any chemicals. :duh:
c-J
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." quoted Albert Einstein.
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OK, cheap-Jack. When I first read your post, I had to say to myself, "what has this guy been smokin'"?
But, I decided to try it, so I'd never be accused of having a closed mind, or what's left of it.
I actually thought the stylus might micro-hydroplane, but I hear no evidence of it (YET). On the positive side of the technique, it certainly can subdue static, so that is a plus. It also may damp the record surface, so that is another plus.
On the minus side, it's a slight hassle. The record has to dried off before putting it to bed or mold will certainly start growing.
So, I'm still listening........
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=53804)
Wayner :smoke:
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cheap-Jack, there are so many thousands of pound per square inch at the point where the diamond contacts the groove wall that the water is displaced and cannot be between the stylus and the vinyl.
Water could be present on the cantilever and further up the shank of the stylus as well as on either side of the stylus in the groove. The water could very easily act to "dampen" spurious vibrations in the vinyl and the stylus assembly by providing an impedance matching medium through which unwanted vibrations could flow away into the body of the record.
There is also a possibility that the water present could flash to steam due to the forces involved.
The vinyl itself frequently vaporizes when mis-tracking occurs as the stylus momentarily loses contact with the groove wall and then recontacts the groove wall with extreme violence.
For an idea of the magnitude of the forces involved look up diamond anvil. Only the elastic memory that virgin vinyl has makes it possible for a record to be played more than once.
Scotty
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Hi.
(1) cheap-Jack, there are so many thousands of pound per square inch at the point where the diamond contacts the groove wall that the water is displaced and cannot be between the stylus and the vinyl.
(2) Water could be present on the cantilever and further up the shank of the stylus as well as on either side of the stylus in the groove. The water could very easily act to "dampen" spurious vibrations in the vinyl and the stylus assembly by providing an impedance matching medium through which unwanted vibrations could flow away into the body of the record.
(3) There is also a possibility that the water present could flash to steam due to the forces involved.
First off, let me make it very clear:- whatever printed in the papers you posted below does NOT happen to my many many hundreds of old old recylced LPs I picked up dirt cheap from thrift stores, let alone many brandname LPs I own. So if you believe in whatever published therein, be my guest, please. But please do not put your words in my mouth. Many thanks.
So let's take a look at those so called 'facts' in the papers you posted:-
(1) 7.726lbs/in2 stylus point pressure? Sorry my common sense tells me this figure is unreal. My research shows it is only 340lbs/in2 which makes sense to me.
Let's find out how a stylus tracks a record groove. The contact is made with one SIDE of the stylus touches the corresponding SIDE of the groove. NOT the tip of the stylus making any contact which so many misunderstand. IN fact, the stylus tip should not touch the bottom of the groove, otherwise it will dig out tons of dirts buried down there, causing mistracking & noises.
How much down the stylus shaft the tracking contact is made depends on the shape of the stylus, be it conical or elliptical. Modern LPs get groove width of 1mil (1mil=1/1,000inch) vs old old LPs get much wider grooves 2-3mil
That's why too fine elliptical stylus may not track old vinyls well vs conical stylus with wider radius which tracs lold LPs much much better. That's explains why my cheapie MM cartridge with a conical stylus tracks my old old LPs so well.
A paper from Acoustical Scoiety of America :- "A large radius stylus for the reproduction of lateral cut records".stated the "unexpected benefits" of using a stylus of sufficient LARGE tip radius, including increase of stylus,& record life & better high end response. etc etc.
If what stated in yr papers was fact, how come my old old recyled LPs still sound so nice & quiet with WET play instead of already too torn apart to be listenable???
(2) Is it an advantage of wet play - to suppress tracking vibration??
(3) It is only a "possibility" or speculation, not a fact yet!
I don't take in anything I read without first filtering, digesting & verifying it, not even the bible which was written by man not by the Almighty. Man is prone to err.
c-J
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." quoted Albert Einstein.
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cheap-Jack, I have binned my second post/reply and started thread on the topic
here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=100567.0
This discussion takes the record cleaning thread WAY OFF TOPIC!
Regards,
Scotty
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I don't take in anything I read without first filtering, digesting & verifying it, not even the bible which was written by man not by the Almighty. Man is prone to err.
Cheap-Jack,
rather than respond and violate one of the rules of AC (no religion or politics), let me suggest that you edit your post and remove the reference to the Bible. Thank you.
Laura
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It's amazing that we'll put up with ultra low output phono cartridges because they have 1 inch less wire on the coil (less weight/faster transient response), yet we'll add multiples times that in surface tension (wet playing) and many will not notice any sonic defect because of the extra weight.
Makes me wonder if there is anything to the weight/moving mass issue between a .3mv and 2.0mv output moving coil cartridge?
Any thoughts?
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wow, a lot of different ideas in here. i'm glad i read through all 9 pages.
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I use a Loricraft PRC-4 for my fluid vacuuming. Here is my process:
1) VinylZyme sprayed on the LP, spread around with a DiscDoctor brush. Let sit for around 3-5 minutes. Reapply if it starts to evaporate (this is an enzyme cleaner)
2) Vacuum off VinylZyme
3) Apply DiscDoctor Miracle fluid, dilated with deionized water. Spread with DiscDoctor brush.
4) Vacuum off DD Miracle fluid
5) Two rinses with deionized water (use plenty of water, making sure there is no DD Miracle left)
6) Vacuum off water.
This will get 95% of VG++/NM visual vinyl to play back darn quiet. The stubborn 5% I put down to poor/cheap vinyl formulations.
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Hello all,
I am self admittedly not very good at DIY projects, and find that the commercial vacuum cleaning machines are far, far beyond my budget.
Having said that, I think a manual scrubbing, along with a good vacuuming would probably work very well.
My question is this: Are there any commercially available vacuum attachments that are designed specifically for us on vinyl records? If so, are they well made, and do the job well?
I apologize for the silly questions, but we all have to start somewhere. :wink:
Thanks.
-Dave
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Hello all,
I am self admittedly not very good at DIY projects, and find that the commercial vacuum cleaning machines are far, far beyond my budget.
Having said that, I think a manual scrubbing, along with a good vacuuming would probably work very well.
My question is this: Are there any commercially available vacuum attachments that are designed specifically for us on vinyl records? If so, are they well made, and do the job well?
I apologize for the silly questions, but we all have to start somewhere. :wink:
Thanks.
-Dave
I have never used a commercial vac machine. I do use a spin clean manual followed by rinsing and diy vac.
I use a micro shop vac. From a recommendation in this circle I cut a 1/8" groove in the crevice tool that came with the vac. I then applied a soft material on both sides of the groove. After spinning and rinsing I place the record on an old table and rotate it around twice and vacuum both sides.
It pulls a pretty good vacuum and I don't see how a machine could suck any harder and keep the disc spinning, therefore, I think it is about as good as it gets. :D
spin clean is about $80
vac is about $30
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I sold my Loricraft this summer and switched to ultrasonic cleaning. It's amazing! I'm getting records much quieter I couldn't get through a conventional vacuum.
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What is ultrasonic cleaning?
Sorry, I don't know all of the jargon yet. :P
EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up. Interesting concept for sure. I wounder how well that would work with extremely dirty records, or if the grime is deep in the grooves.
Would there be any issues with the grime just sticking to the record as you pull it out of the water?
I assume such a system would be expensive as well. I can't seem to find any pricing for ultrasonic cleaners, just some promotional type literature regarding the process and how it works.
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What is ultrasonic cleaning?
Sorry, I don't know all of the jargon yet. :P
EDIT: Never mind, I looked it up. Interesting concept for sure. I wounder how well that would work with extremely dirty records, or if the grime is deep in the grooves.
Would there be any issues with the grime just sticking to the record as you pull it out of the water?
I assume such a system would be expensive as well. I can't seem to find any pricing for ultrasonic cleaners, just some promotional type literature regarding the process and how it works.
Some more information here: http://www.analogplanet.com/content/worlds-best-record-cleaning-machine
Michael puts in better words than I can.
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Thanks for the link. 8)
That's a nice review, and certainly a strong recommendation to give one a try. Unfortunately, those cleaners will have to go on my "lottery winner" dream gear wish list. :wink: :lol:
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Wow,That thing cost more then my first car . :o
lapsan
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Some more information here: http://www.analogplanet.com/content/worlds-best-record-cleaning-machine
Michael puts in better words than I can.
I saw this in operation at the Capital City Audio Fest show and it truly is completely silent, at least compared to any vacuum machine I've used. As noted by others, somewhat expensive. You can buy ultrasonic cleaning machines online for much cheaper, but nothing with a big enough cleaning tray to do a whole LP, at best you could do a half at a time.
(http://www.analogplanet.com/images/imagecache/600_wide/audiodesk.JPG)
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Yes, Let, that one might be the cat's pajamas. I use a Spin Clean myself. Works good and it's cheap.
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I haven't tried this yet but I plan to:
Here's some information from the Library of Congress and a vendor for the solution:
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/record.html
http://www.labdepotinc.com/p-23169-tergitol-15-s-7-surfactant.php?c=498
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(1) Bingo!! WET play is the BEST vinyl play.
Water on my electronics gives me the wet willy's.
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I have used Aleene's Tacky Glue (WalMart craft dept) on many albums with amazing results. Had a Nautilus copy of Court and Spark that was so noisy I quit playing it. Mold, probably. After glue cleaning, it sounds like a new album. I nearly threw it out several times. I did throw away many that I could have saved, with glue. There are some that won't be improved. They were probably bad pressings to start with.
I have also used Phoenix with microfiber towels. I think it really needs to be rinsed with distilled water for best results.
And I have used Gruv Glide and don't note any problems with it.
I no longer clean with velvet / solution discwasher type brushes every time, but do use a carbon fiber brush and Zerostat.
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The disk cleaning I do is pretty straightforward - just a VPI 16.5 machine with MoFi Record Wash and Deep Cleaner fluids.
The place where I might be able to contribute more to the discussion is in the area of on-turntable pre playing clean-off. For that, I have made a long term effort to understand the "In The Groove" roller cleaner. Living in a somewhat drier and dustier climate, I've found it delightful to be able to pick up the majority of particles that inevitably settle on the disk, just before playing. My records have never been quieter using any other tool for this job. That all said, I do not buy into some of the other claims made for the product and have done a bit of battle with other of its less than perfect properties.
1) As an only tool record cleaner: From my experience, I do not believe the "In The Groove" roller is all that good at retrieving materials from well down in the grooves or at pulling off fluid or sticky residues - hence the machine cleaning as primary.
2) Roller residue: I have experienced very rare occasions where the roller ends up leaving small amounts of its material behind on the disk. (typically appears under strong sidelight illumination as lines where the edges of the roller have tracked - and sonically as a repeating pattern, similar to a disk molding under fill situation)
a) Some of my experiences of this kind have seemed to be limited to disks that might have a particularly different vinyl formulation, or maybe retain some of an unusual plasticizer coating that interacts with the roller. (in all cases it has been possible to remove the material with a good VPI machine re-cleaning)
b) More recent experience has given me the suspicion that the roller material is best maintained in a very "well cured" condition. After water cleaning basically per the instructions (and comments below) I suggest WEEKS if not more of dry out time, to allow all moisture to completely migrate out of the material. (keeping more than one roller around for rotation - if you play vinyl constantly, as I suspect you might, reading this) Also, when opening a new roller, I've taken to again allowing weeks for the roller to evolve out any volatiles after removing the roller wrapping.
3) Static: Especially in the dry climate, the roller naturally does tend to create a fair charge of static. I obtained a Furutech Destat blower for this and it works like a champ. However, in my particular setup, the static charge does not seem to create significant audio consequences and I end up using the Destat more for the purpose of keeping the disk from attracting dust back to it - or just skipping that step.
;-)
4) Roller direction: Again a lot of experimentation occurred here. I have settled on a pattern of from the center out radial strokes (I had to fabricate a center clamp that was of low enough profile to allow this direction of use) generally overlapping by a minimum of half roller widths. This seems to give the greatest possibility of cleaning near the outer edge on records that may have a fatter outer edge lip. Per unit instructions, use fairly minimal pressure. Roller direction has not seemed to make much difference in the residue issue - especially after discovery of the curing out process above.
5) Cleaning: I find that the roller can be left to get pretty significantly loaded up before it will cease to do its job well. (may mean using some greater overlapping as it gets dirtier) I don't depart much from the cleaning instruction description. I do substitute clean lint free synthetic wipers for the "paper towel" - one wet to gently wipe the surface under the flowing water and one dry to blot dry as is described.
Sure hope these gas-bag length comments help somebody and I'd be happy to hear of other's experiences...
John
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My regimen is extreme but I plan on archiving albums into hirez files and want to get them as clean/quiet as possible.
1. Put the record in a "Groovemaster" record cleaning aid (round plexiglass disks same size as label) and hand clean using lab grade glass spray bottles with KAB cleaning brushes. I now use "Audio Intelligent" cleaning solutions. I use a different brush for each side and dip/clean the brushes in 99% isopropyl after each use. After cleaning I rinse using a handheld bottle of deionized water.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95096)
2. Next the record goes over to my "Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro" vacuum record cleaning machine for 2-3 minutes of cleaning/vacuuming again using A.I. solution. I clean the velvet lips after each using using a small brush (comes with Mini-Pro) and deionized water.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95098)
3. My final step is to clean the record in a KLAudio ultrasonic record cleaner filled with reverse-osmosis/D.I. water with a 3 minute clean cycle and a 3 minute dry cycle. The record comes out dry and is put in a new Mobile Fidelity sleeve and ready for archiving and/or listening.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=95099)
Extreme and expensive to get the tools but I intend on offering an archiving service and have been working on refining my process.
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That KLAudio system is insanely impressive!
I'm using the spin clean to periodically clean and a CF brush before each cleaning. I definitely want to upgrade my method as I'm not happy with the result. The Spin Clean does remove oil and finger prints well but there are still some pops and crackles that I would like to eliminate. I'm thinking of picking up a Record Doctor V vacuum system which I would use to dry the records that were just cleaned in the SC. I am on a budget unfortunately.
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you can fashion a vacuum cleaner from the crevice tool of a small shop vac. I find it sucks pretty good after a dip in the spin clean.
I would like to send some spin cleaned/vac'd LP's to someone with a vpi and see if it improves them further, some day.
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I know this is a long thread and about every imaginable way of cleaning records looks to have been discussed, but as a new AudioCircle member, it seemed like a good place to post one of my own experiences that might be helpful to other members.
First, with over 6,000 records in this house, there is plenty of cleaning to do. I started my career in radio back in the 70's, so vinyl's hardly new to me. Not that we actually cleaned records back then - we wore them out and if the song had some staying power, just hoped we'd get a new copy. My first attempts at cleaning then, were for my own records and involved the same stuff many use. Audio Intelligent's line of fluids work quite well, but being a penny-pincher I moved to home brews based on heavily diluted enzyme cleaners, IPA and R/O water from Whole Foods. Also started by cleaning with brushes & low lint (no such thing as lint free) dish towels, but quickly shifted to a DIY record cleaner and that's what I still use today.
My record cleaning gizmo may be slightly different. True, it does use a large shop-vac for suction, but is outfitted with a 4" wide stair cleaning nozzle from a steam cleaning machine, which means it pretty nicely fits over an LP. The nozzle edges have been rounded off with very fine grit sandpaper, and covered with velvet strips cut from the self-adhesive replacement MOFI pads for their record cleaning brush. I should say cleaning is all done by holding the nozzle & not sure I'd want to change that. I can hold it one way to hit the lead-in and know I'm really applying full suction there, then shift to holding it in a way that fully gets the rest of the LP in one pass.
An old Garrard idler wheel "record changer" turntable gives me speed control. Normally clean and vac steps are all done at 16 RPM, my thought being that no bristle I can get in the groove is stiff enough to track it well at any higher speed. Admittedly, the suction of my system does at times overcome the grip of the record on the turntable, so I do use my free hand on the label area to keep it down. I know a mod with a clamp would be a good thing to do, but just have never gotten there . . .
So the basic steps are:
(1) One pass with the vac to remove any surface debris, followed by a quick brush off of the nozzle.
(2) A quick wet down with whatever solution I think is best (very clean record will just get water at this point) and a light pass with a nylon brush held just off parallel to the record, to try and keep the brush from pushing anything into the groove. Amazing how much dangerous, abrasive surface debris gets removed at this point.
(3) The main cleaning run, using whatever brush and fluid I think best. If it's a clean record, a carbon fiber brush. If it's a pre "microgroove" disk, the stiffer, more coarse nylon brush, or one of the edging pad paint brushes others have used. Clean records normally just get the IPA and water solution. A really dirty record may be set to soak for 20 minutes in the enzyme solution, followed by the iPA solution.
(4) As many r/o water rinses as I deem necessary (farmers are taught to triple-rinse chemical containers prior to disposal and there are times when I do the same). Rinse brush is carbon fiber, although I also use the MOFI velvet brush.
I should say I know there are much more pure waters out there and it's certainly possible the r/o water could be leaving something in the groove, but my suspicion is that since the vac is strong enough to remove all fluid in a couple of passes, it's doing a pretty good job of removing any contaminants, whether from the water, the fluids or the junk on the record. At any rate, I've been happy with the results. I do digitize most records after playing them through once and my recording process has me cranking it up with headphones on, listening closely to fadeouts, so if there's anything in the groove, I do think I hear it. I certainly can tell the difference, for instance, between a clean groove, one that has a bit of whoosh or roar from cleaning solution film, and the roar of lands distorted by a combination of heat and pressure.
One good thing about my suction nozzle is that it's clear. If I'm working with a disk that had been played many, many times in a smoke-filled room, I do at times see the yellow tinge. When I'm going through my rinse steps, I know when the rinse water is clear.
Would I be happier with one of the commercial wet-vac machines & commercial fluids? Possibly. Would I be able to save steps, put more time into listening to the music? Sure. After all, it can easily take me 15 minutes to clean both sides of an average LP. But the thing is, I'm a tad obsessive-compulsive, so I actually derive some satisfaction out of the routine and for some reason I find myself thinking that the musicians and engineers put a lot of time and effort into cutting the record, so why shouldn't I take a little time bringing it back? And really, so long as it makes me feel good and gets the job done . . .
So is there anything about my crazy method I really don't like? Well, it's very easy to over dry a record and static buildup can be a problem. I couldn't live without that blue anti-stat gun!
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forgot 2 things.
Surfactant - Triton X, available on Amazon. One drop of that stuff heavily diluted is all you need.
You say somebody spray-painted a room while listening to records and there are itty-bitty paint drops on it now? Pec-12, also from Amazon. Pec-12 has been used for decades to clean negatives. A tiny drop on the paint spot, a light rub and you're good to go.
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Moved from Discwasher to a Nitty Gritty 1.5 when I bought my Well-Tempered turntable 15 years ago and was very happy (used Record Research cleaning solution). When I got back into vinyl again this year I picked up a Spin Clean set up.
I'm slowly going through my collection, cleaning records with my new system when I want to listen to them. My new system uses the Spin Clean to wet-clean the record, using their solution and following their directions for washing. I then put the record on the Nitty Gritty and vacuum one side 5 revolutions. I flip the record and if the wet side isn't completely wetted I squirt a liberal amount of Nitty Gritty solution #2 onto the felt and rotate 1-2 revolutions to completely wet the surface, then vacuum 5 revolutions.
After I'm done cleaning I slip the record into a MFSL sleeve, and slip the record and jacket into a vinyl sleeve so I can tell at a glance which records have had the "full monty".
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I'm looking at making my own Ultrasonic unit. There is one being offered on a DIY forum (the tank)...then I'll just put together a wooden or plastic unit to hold a motor and spindle....I'm thinking that's better than any of the vacuum units available at any cost.
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Got my tank today and my motor will com this week along with a spindle, coupler, cord with switch and the rest of the things I needed to make this thing. I also got my Ilford photo fluid and will get water and 99.9% alcohol this week also. I can't wait to get this up and running to clean these things.
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I made a DYI frame for an ultrasonic cleaning machine. It works good, but when its done there is a line of debris that adheres to the record when lifted out of the cleaner that was floating on the water. So I still feel the need to run it through the VPI 16.5, but the ultrasonic machine gets out particles the VPI wouldn't.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=111859)
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I made a DYI frame for an ultrasonic cleaning machine. It works good, but when its done there is a line of debris that adheres to the record when lifted out of the cleaner that was floating on the water. So I still feel the need to run it through the VPI 16.5, but the ultrasonic machine gets out particles the VPI wouldn't.
Nice craftsmanship, hifi! Just wondering how you know the ultrasonics remove stuff the VPI wouldn't?
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Thanks. I had several records that I had previously cleaned with the VPI that I re-cleaned with the ultrasonic and there was additional material that was released from the surface of the record. These particular records has either not been played or only played a few times since the VPI cleaning. If you have the time and inclination, the following thread has a lot of information on ultrasonic cleaning and was the inspiration for the one I made.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner-25.html
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Thanks. I had several records that I had previously cleaned with the VPI that I re-cleaned with the ultrasonic and there was additional material that was released from the surface of the record. These particular records has either not been played or only played a few times since the VPI cleaning. If you have the time and inclination, the following thread has a lot of information on ultrasonic cleaning and was the inspiration for the one I made.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/analogue-source/218276-my-version-ultrasonic-record-cleaner-25.html
hifi,
Thanks. I'll check out the thread. I'm familiar with ultrasonic cleaning, and am a firm believer in it as a cleaning method, especially since it reduces the need for chemicals (although a good surfactant probably still helps). Also beware that it can be pretty violent at the surface--I suspect that at least some of the stuff you see coming off is vinyl, hopefully just from the machined portions at the edge and hole. A method used to make sure the ultrasonic transducer works is to put aluminum foil in the solution--it will have small pinholes in it if the ultrasonic is working properly.
Philosophically I also think vacuuming the surface is a good idea, however, and the two methods to date have been mutually exclusive.
Have you been able to hear a difference between the VPI'd records and ultrasonic records?
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Thanks again., I haven’t seen any black vinyl residue at the bottom of the tank (yet!) most of what comes off is dust, hair, and just general grime. The particular ultrasonic cleaner I purchased is a 60kHz machine as compared to the more common 40kHz machine. The higher frequency produces smaller cavitation bubbles and cleans out the grooves better. Anyway, the previous link has a lot of technical information about ultrasonic cleaning if you have the time to search for it. The best way I can describe the sonic difference is the sound got clearer, like a veil being lifted from the vinyl. The highs are crisper and the mids are clearer. A lot of the records I've cleaned are mid 1960’s to late 80’s vintage and probably have a lot a smoke particles embedded in the grooves of the vinyl; and that’s my guess why it sounds clearer after an ultrasonic wash.
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anybody still using vpi 16.5 as their primary (sole) cleaning machine, and if so, does it work?
and any advice?
Most ( all ) of what I see on here is pretty old info.
thx
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anybody still using vpi 16.5 as their primary (sole) cleaning machine, and if so, does it work?
and any advice?
Most ( all ) of what I see on here is pretty old info.
thx
Vacuum machines like the VPI 16.5 are still very popular and work great.
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The 16.5 works well for most people/LPs.
Do a fluid wash and a distilled water rinse with separate brushes. Better results: use and anti stat gun before cleaning and after. AND put your clean record in a new poly sleeve.
The whole procedure should be 2-4 mins per LP. It is a little labour intensive but the machine is relatively cheap and should last a long time... It's just as good a machine as higher priced vacuums including Loricrafts for MOST people for MOST LPs...
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It is a little labour intensive but the machine is relatively cheap and should last a long time... It's just as good a machine as higher priced vacuums including Loricrafts for MOST people for MOST LPs...
The VPI is an excellent machine and does a very good job of cleaning records and might be sufficient for most people. However, as someone who has owned and used a VPI 17 and currently owns a Loricraft PC-4, the Loricraft does a far superior job of cleaning LPs and the difference justified the price differential IMO. YMMV
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The VPI is an excellent machine and does a very good job of cleaning records and might be sufficient for most people. However, as someone who has owned and used a VPI 17 and currently owns a Loricraft PC-4, the Loricraft does a far superior job of cleaning LPs and the difference justified the price differential IMO. YMMV
Laura,
Just checked out the Loricraft on a US website. After hearing about it for years, I finally took the time to see it and read about it. Looks like a big step up from VPI or NittyGritty, but its cost is getting into the ultrasonic range. It'd be interesting to do a comparison between Loricraft, Audiodesk, and Klaudio.
AC
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I've heard the Lorricraft a lot and it's still not as good as a DIY ultrasonic cleaner using 60HZ transducers. nice machine for sure, but not the same league
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The Audiodesk does a better job than the Loricraft. I think the Loricraft is better than the wand vacuum cleaners like VPI and Nitty Gritty.
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Good info. Thanks.
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My two cents on the topic are the following:
The Disc Doctor cleaning fluid is very good, and available in concentrated form that I dilute with distilled water.
The Nitty Gritty cleaning fluid is also very good but more expensive.
The VPI record cleaning fluid is not quite as good on dirty records, but is fine for general maintenance. I last bought some in concentrate form that has to be diluted with distilled water.
Although I have tried various home-brew cleaning fluids I do trust the ones above, and they work. It's not worth the effort in my opinion to try and home-brew something that may or may not work, or may or may not damage my vinyl.
I think that vacuum cleaning records is the most effective way to clean them short of using an ultrasonic method. Hand washing may work, but it is messy and there is no method better for removing moisture from the record surface than an vacuum.
I'm cheap. Chronically short of money yet I love collecting vinyl. Some of the very best titles I have were found at garage sales, and thrift stores. They are often covered in mould, and the most effective me ands of cleaning mouldy records is wet scrubbing followed by vacuum drying.
I made my own VPI style vacuum pickup tube out of a small piece of clear polycarbonate pipe, cut a slit in it with a dremel and applied two dense velvet strips either side of the slit. I fastened this setup to a small shop vac and voilá. I use an old junk turntable with a record clamp as a platform for cleaning activities. I use a stiff bristle brush I bought from a VPI dealer. It's the brush from a VPI 16.5.
Total cost: $30 and I have clean records.
Everyday dust removal I do with a carbon fibre brush and a Nagaoka rolling cleaner (a washable tacky polymer roller that picks up dirt)
Pax.
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So speaking of record cleaning - until today, I'd never HEARD of TergiKleen record cleaning fluid. The amazon thread I'm linking to below contains comments about people using it in Spin Clean RCMs, etc.
So is it really as good as the claims make it out to be? Seems like a good price for a fluid that makes so much fluid, and is used by archivists/Library of congress, etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Archivist-TergiKleen-Tergitol-based-Concentrate/dp/B019YI38Z2/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1473724193&sr=8-13&keywords=record+cleaning+fluid
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Ok I got a tip. I'm sure many of you have the MoFi brush or equivalent type thing. It gets dirty though and there's no particular way to clean it, ya? Here's the secret to cleaning you brushes... lint rollers! You can't use them on the record because they cause static, but they work great on brushes.
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So speaking of record cleaning - until today, I'd never HEARD of TergiKleen record cleaning fluid. The amazon thread I'm linking to below contains comments about people using it in Spin Clean RCMs, etc.
So is it really as good as the claims make it out to be? Seems like a good price for a fluid that makes so much fluid, and is used by archivists/Library of congress, etc.
https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Archivist-TergiKleen-Tergitol-based-Concentrate/dp/B019YI38Z2/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1473724193&sr=8-13&keywords=record+cleaning+fluid
I use Tergikleen and I like it alot. It may seem expensive for what you get but honestly it takes a lot of guesswork out of mixing stuff. Highly recommended.
-Jim
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Revirginizer.......end of story. :)
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Good topic Hantra.
So far I haven't nailed my method down yet but I did purchase a used VPI HW16.5 record cleaner and some hunt brushes.
[/quote
I Use Good old Fairy ...Wipe with a soft sponge , Good rinse and dry over a warm rad for a few seconds.....Gets rid of all the noise. looks good and shiny new.]
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I use a SpinClean and then dry with a Record Doctor vac. This works great!
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I know this thread hasn't had much traffic lately but thought that this might be of interest to our vinylheads. Definitely not a solution for the budget minded.
https://www.cnet.com/news/perfect-vinyl-forevers-deep-cleaning-process-resuscitates-your-lps/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/perfect-vinyl-forevers-deep-cleaning-process-resuscitates-your-lps/)
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They aren't doing anything that DIYer sonic cleaners aren't already doing. But that's cool. I thought about doing that locally. I simply don't have the time and my garage fluctuates temp too much.
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I totally disagree with their claim that they will clean it better than any DIY ultra sonic cleaner. Total BS statement. Sad too. I just sold my home made ultra sonic cleaner. I have used a couple of home made cleaners and always use the 80hz unit. I too have used an enzyme soak and then a home made 'cleaner' in the tank (constant filtering) and then used a distilled water wash, which is just as good as their medical wash or whatever they call it. Some albums are toast no matter how clean you get them. Some just need you to change the cartridge as the needle needs to ride in a different place in the groove. I've had albums with mold growing in them and gotten them to sound outstanding.
if you don't want to do it yourself, then it's a great idea. Lot's of guy are now cleaning for others.
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I may have posted this info before:
http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/record-cleaning-youre-doing-it-wrong.689430/
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=104087&hilit=quat
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=96199&hilit=fuzz
http://www.loc.gov/preservation/care/record.html
https://londonjazzcollector.wordpress.com/for-audiophiles/home-brew-cleaner-for-vacuum-rcms/
https://www.nedcc.org/audio-preservation/cleaning-discs
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I have used a couple of home made cleaners and always use the 80hz unit....
Just to avoid misunderstanding, I think you mean 80Khz.
U. S. cleaners are the bomb. :thumb:
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yes of course I meant Khz, lol. thanks
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Using a Record Dr. with the Record Doctor cleaning solution as some have already mentioned. It works great as far as I am concerned. Some really dirty LPs require a second or third pass. You hear a very noticeable difference in sound. This is my first cleaning machine so I have no other reference.
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I use warm tap water, dawn, and one of those flat "edger" paint brushes from Lowes or home depot. Those things really get into the grooves. I just put a squirt of soap on the brush and rub it around. I then apply water to the LP, lay it on a towel, and run the brush in circles around it a few times. More if it was exceptionally dirty (Goodwill finds fit into this category sometimes). I then rinse with warm plain tap water and dry somewhat with a towel. The only reason I dry it is because since I don't use distilled water, the less water that is left, the less residue is left.
This has worked wonders on some records. I'm talking dead quiet after using this. The most amazing was an old copy of Annie Get Your Gun from around 1960 with Doris Day. It sounds brand new and almost like a Sheffield recording. And it was a $.25 goodwill find.
BTW, this is my first post here. I couldn't find a "welcome new members" forum, so here I am...
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This is what it looks like:
https://www.prettyhandygirl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/edger-pad-cut-outs.jpg
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I use warm tap water, dawn, and one of those flat "edger" paint brushes from Lowes or home depot. Those things really get into the grooves. I just put a squirt of soap on the brush and rub it around. I then apply water to the LP, lay it on a towel, and run the brush in circles around it a few times. More if it was exceptionally dirty (Goodwill finds fit into this category sometimes). I then rinse with warm plain tap water and dry somewhat with a towel. The only reason I dry it is because since I don't use distilled water, the less water that is left, the less residue is left.
This has worked wonders on some records. I'm talking dead quiet after using this. The most amazing was an old copy of Annie Get Your Gun from around 1960 with Doris Day. It sounds brand new and almost like a Sheffield recording. And it was a $.25 goodwill find.
BTW, this is my first post here. I couldn't find a "welcome new members" forum, so here I am...
given how cheap distilled water is (80 cents a gallon @ Wally World) why wouldn't you use it ? The fact that you acknowledge 'residue' is but one reason NOT to use tap water
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Welcome Not Insane.
Paul
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Welcome Not Insane. Soapy water and a good brush work pretty well for a simple way of cleaning. But nothing beats ultrasonic followed by vacuuming.
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Welcome Not Insane. Soapy water and a good brush work pretty well for a simple way of cleaning. But nothing beats ultrasonic followed by vacuuming.
What he said. ^^^^
Welcome Not Insane.
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I use a cheap (inexpensive) Perfection steam cleaner, and fill it with distilled water. Because it is marginal at blasting out the steam, it does have enough pressure to use it on vinyl. It has a tendency to run out of steam (so to speak) pressure wise after 30 seconds or so, and then it takes about a minute for the pressure to build again. IMO, works well.
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Tried a Kirmuss Audio ultrasonic cleaner and returned it as it is brutally slow. By the time you get it set up with distilled water and alcohol, run the pulse cycles, and clean two LPs (often just one album!), the machine starts overheating and takes an eternity to cool down. The Upscale Audio version that can do 3 LPs instead of 2 simultaneously would help, but still a very time-consuming process. And it is extremely noisy, so you can't do it while listening or within earshot of your family. Oh, and the tiny bottle of surfactant that is 99% distilled water is maybe enough to do about 25-35 albums depending on how many cycles they require, at which point Kirmuss shameless price gouges the refills.
Need to find an alternative at some point and will likely go back to one of the vacuum systems like my old Okki Nokki. That thing was great.
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Tried a Kirmuss Audio ultrasonic cleaner and returned it as it is brutally slow. By the time you get it set up with distilled water and alcohol, run the pulse cycles, and clean two LPs (often just one album!), the machine starts overheating and takes an eternity to cool down. The Upscale Audio version that can do 3 LPs instead of 2 simultaneously would help, but still a very time-consuming process. And it is extremely noisy, so you can't do it while listening or within earshot of your family. Oh, and the tiny bottle of surfactant that is 99% distilled water is maybe enough to do about 25-35 albums depending on how many cycles they require, at which point Kirmuss shameless price gouges the refills.
Need to find an alternative at some point and will likely go back to one of the vacuum systems like my old Okki Nokki. That thing was great.
But the Kirmuss can be used like other ultrasonic cleaners without his whole neurotic multi-step cleaner process, no?
It seems that it takes 2 steps: the cleaning, and then the drying. The drying is still what vacuum is best at, without which the hand cleaning and US cleaning steps rely on air drying which isn't great.
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Last night I had a few older friends over that loved music but are not audiophiles. We were playing old vinyl - everything from "The Music Man" to "Tijuana Brass" to "The Bee Gees". Some of these albums were never cleaned in any fashion, so the noisier ones I ran through the Nitty Gritty machine. They all noted how much more musical, cleaner, clearer they sounded as well as how much less surface noise there was after cleaning. So, if non audiophiles define the sound "obviously better", a good record cleaning machine is something you should own, if you don't already. I have also found that a really good successful cleaning results in simply dead quiet between tracks. Case in point - Remember the Tijuana Brass album "Whipped Cream and other Delights"? That album is over 50 years old but it is still very quiet between tracks. Keep in mind that the album lived for years without ever being cleaned.
I use the following solution - 32 oz Isopropyl Alcohol - the 70% stuff you can buy at your local drug store, 72 oz of distilled water - the distilled water eliminates the hardness content found in our tap water, 22 oz Simple Green Cleaner, and 2 oz of Kodak Photo Flo 200, which you can find on Amazon. That makes a gallon and I use it liberally when cleaning an album. I scrub it with a brush and let it sit for a bit, soaking in it. Then I scrub it again. After running it though the Nitty Gritty I discovered that a good rinse is also needed with distilled water. For really dirty filthy albums, such as that Bee Gees one, it needed two cleanings before a rinse.
I use a thin record cleaning brush to swap the cleaner on and I pay extra attention to the first track or two on each side since they collect the most grime. I use a second brush of the same type to spread the rinse water around. Note that the Nitty Gritty also dries the record due to the vacuum mechanism. Once it is cleaned, I just use a DiscWasher brush and DiscWasher fluid before playing each time for a brief clean each time. Once an album has run through the Nitty Gritty, it just gets the DiscWasher brush.
This does take time, no question about it; a good 5 to 8 minutes per album. I would love to get a Degritter Ultrasonic Cleaner but I am not willing to part with that much cash. That being said, every time I clean an album, I start thinking "you know, it isn't really that expensive....."
Comments?
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Last night I had a few older friends over that loved music but are not audiophiles. We were playing old vinyl - everything from "The Music Man" to "Tijuana Brass" to "The Bee Gees". Some of these albums were never cleaned in any fashion, so the noisier ones I ran through the Nitty Gritty machine. They all noted how much more musical, cleaner, clearer they sounded as well as how much less surface noise there was after cleaning. So, if non audiophiles define the sound "obviously better", a good record cleaning machine is something you should own, if you don't already. I have also found that a really good successful cleaning results in simply dead quiet between tracks. Case in point - Remember the Tijuana Brass album "Whipped Cream and other Delights"? That album is over 50 years old but it is still very quiet between tracks. Keep in mind that the album lived for years without ever being cleaned.
Comments?
It's confusing to me why people say that cleaning doesn't do anything.
Deep (ultrasonic) cleaning can make a magical difference that simple brushing or even wet vacuum cleaning can't.
Ultrasonic solutions are still way too expensive for me, so I use vacuum wet methods. I find the Disc Doctor fluid and brush kit works pretty good with a VPI machine being used strictly for vacuuming up the mess.
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This does take time, no question about it; a good 5 to 8 minutes per album. I would love to get a Degritter Ultrasonic Cleaner but I am not willing to part with that much cash. That being said, every time I clean an album, I start thinking "you know, it isn't really that expensive....."
Comments?
I use a homemade ultrasonic cleaner and dry with a Nitty Gritty. It's about as clean as you can get vinyl, and it is sonically better than just the vacuum.
There are 12 pages of comments on homemade units here... https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127810.msg1684675#msg1684675
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I just tried a new product Vinylwipe which is a 7"x7" individually wrapped moist wipe that is biodegradable and has no harmful chemicals. They are very affordable at $ .50 each plus shipping. I had 12 Lp's out and ready to clean and got them all done with one wipe. The first LP ended up with a few dots since the wipe is so moist but they were easily cleaned off as the wipe started by to dry with use. This is an excellent product at an affordable price.
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For me: 1st step ultrasonic cleaning, 2nd step drying with "Keith Monk" DIY system
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Two things for me, Easy!
Vinyl Record Cleaning Solution Fluid Professional 8 Oz Spray Bottle VNC-8 Made in USA Lasermedia https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017U7LK40/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_BYTVNT9VBPJ99JP7RTZZ
And perfect size for 12” LPs
MagicFiber Microfiber Cleaning Cloths, EXTRA LARGE PACK https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0050R66X8/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_00XW77GWE9NESWEHDK82?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
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Maybe this is cheating, but I use a Degritter. New LPs get six “Heavy” cycles with only distilled water.
Newly purchased “used” LPs get hand cleaned with Audio Intelligent Formula No. 15 or Enzymatic Formula- depending on the debris level. Then, I run the LP through the Degritter for six “Heavy” cycles (distilled water) reapplying the AI cleaner between cycles.
Once an LP has this “deep cleaning,” I will do a quick cycle in the Degritter with distilled water only every other playing.
This may seem time consuming, but my LPs have never sounded better with no surface noise.
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At $3K plus shipping a Degritter is way to rich for my blood.
I suppose I could try the DIY ultrasonic solutions or maybe a Kirmussaudio.com machine. At under $900 it's a lot cheaper, but still a lot of money.
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At $3K plus shipping a Degritter is way to rich for my blood.
I suppose I could try the DIY ultrasonic solutions or maybe a Kirmussaudio.com machine. At under $900 it's a lot cheaper, but still a lot of money.
Understood. I wasn’t planning on spending anywhere near that amount for an “ancillary” piece of equipment not directly contributing to the production of sound, but with the amount I have spent on vinyl and the estimated cost of my collection, I rationalized the purchase in my head. I was able to get a nice discount from an online dealer that I have done quite of bit of business with (I just called and asked what they could do for me); but it still was a hefty amount. That said, I have no regrets with the purchase.
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At $3K plus shipping a Degritter is way to rich for my blood.
I suppose I could try the DIY ultrasonic solutions or maybe a Kirmussaudio.com machine. At under $900 it's a lot cheaper, but still a lot of money.
I picked up the Nitty Gritty vacuum used for $100, then built the ultrasonic for another $150.
For $250 I doubt if there is anything that comes close.
There is no need to spend $3000 if you can do even a bit of DIY.
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I wonder if a clock second hand motor would have enough torque to work? Like this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175). Battery operated and 1 RPM.
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I wonder if a clock second hand motor would have enough torque to work? Like this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175). Battery operated and 1 RPM.
Should work fine. I use something similar to this 3 rpm motor...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393046407959?hash=item5b83643b17:g:WyYAAOSwlvpfzZLH
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No affiliation with these guys, but here's where I'm at after a long road of trying everything from the wood glue trick to my own solution and a brush, a Nitty Gritty, etc.
I use this 3D printed wet vac cleaner with a wet/dry vac, and Tergikleen.
https://squeakycleanvinyl.com/products/squeakycleanvinyl-mk-iii
(https://squeakycleanvinyl.com/products/squeakycleanvinyl-mk-iii)
https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Archivist-TergiKleenTM-Tergitol-based-Concentrate/dp/B019YI38Z2
(https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Archivist-TergiKleenTM-Tergitol-based-Concentrate/dp/B019YI38Z2)
I keep one bottle of the Tergikleen mixture, and one bottle of plain distilled water for rinse. I use the 500ml rinsing bottles like these:
https://www.amazon.com/Oubest-Succulent-Watering-Irrigation-Sprinkling/dp/B087CNJVBG/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=squirt+bottles&qid=1626968542&sr=8-9 (https://www.amazon.com/Oubest-Succulent-Watering-Irrigation-Sprinkling/dp/B087CNJVBG/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=squirt+bottles&qid=1626968542&sr=8-9)
Vinyl is noticeably cleaner than any other method, and definitely quieter. It's also quite a bit faster than the hand clean-paintbrush method.
Highly recommended.
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It seems there may be as many ways to clean vinyl as there are enthusiasts. Years ago I asked at my record store Joe's Record Paradise, and they said use 70% IPA and a paper towel. Which I found works well, but not great. I have read from the Library of Congress that alcohol , while it won't hurt the PVC, may be bad for stabilizers and plasticizers in the record. I haven't seen, or heard any damage, but I have moved on to Spin Clean, and drying with microfiber towels/air dry. I have heard the records I have cleaned thus far, and they sound much quieter, so I am sold on this method. I purchased a Vinylvac, but it is unboxed as of yet, I don't see where I need it. it seems to be a solution in search of a problem. The MF towels dry just fine, and my records are gorgeously clean.
I have also just started using unscented dryer sheets under my TT, to control static, and so far it seems to work pretty good. I am also using MR Clean Magic Eraser to clean the needle. This advice from Joe Collins on You Tube. I am awaiting a new shipment of archival anti-static sleeves from MoFi.
I was grooving along just fine listening to records, until two weeks ago I let loose the purse strings in the record store, and walked out with 5 classical guitar records,
all of which were kind of dirty. My alcohol regime just could not get them clean enough.
Denon SLDC reciever; Terchnics MKII. EPC-70 cart ( I think); JBL Bookshelf speakers
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I picked up the Nitty Gritty vacuum used for $100, then built the ultrasonic for another $150.
For $250 I doubt if there is anything that comes close.
There is no need to spend $3000 if you can do even a bit of DIY.
No need to make the cleaner. You can buy it all pre-packaged.
https://www.amazon.com/VEVOR-Ultrasonic-Cleaning-Stainless-Mechanical/dp/B0933DF8TF/ref=d_pd_di_sccai_cn_sccl_3_1/139-8970149-9383007?pd_rd_w=x30Er&content-id=amzn1.sym.e13de93e-5518-4644-8e6b-4ee5f2e0b062&pf_rd_p=e13de93e-5518-4644-8e6b-4ee5f2e0b062&pf_rd_r=BAT5T9BCVVRCJ1EZ60FD&pd_rd_wg=l1DcL&pd_rd_r=6e8f2afd-8944-47c6-b7c1-82588463cf46&pd_rd_i=B0933DF8TF&psc=1
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I wonder if a clock second hand motor would have enough torque to work? Like this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Second-Hand-Only-Clock-Movement-Made-in-USA-MTW-30-/263564873175). Battery operated and 1 RPM.
I use a 1RPM gear motor slowed down with a $10 PWM and a wallwart from the junk bin. It turns at 0.3 RPM which is perfect for 3 rotations during a 10 minute clean cycle.
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Mild Ivory soap with 2-3 drops of Dawn dish soap, painters cut in corner brush, Luke warm water, round & round we go with sudsy painters corner tool, the little fibers do get the grooves well. Rinse with luke warm water, turn on the faucet so there is no aeration in the water, just a steady water stream, so the water gets in the grooves. Lay flat on,clean,cotton,dish towel, gently press down, hit the basement, where I turn on my industrial shop-vac, which I lined the small attachment with sticky felt pads which I cut to go all around the surface of the attachment, slowly seal the suction to the LP, WHILE TURNING IN A SLOW circle to suck out all the water , until they are dry, place on dish rack with a dyson fan blowing on them, wipe with an anti static gently wetted cloth, wait 3 min, then into a discwasher or MOFI, single,sided,rice paper inner, then put the jacket in the Japanese Mylar re-sealable bags,….seal, put away. Most I do play through to check for pops and ticks during playback.
Works a charm, mild ivory soap,and a few,drops of Dawn for fingerprints,or whatever is there.
We buy a lot of used records, so most are dusty and fingered up with skin oils.
Works great for our small Box of records.
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Vevor cleaner from walmart, it was less than $200 delivered to my home. They've raised the price $40 from when I bought it.
Came with everything needed to start cleaning records as well as a rack to dry them afterwards.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/VEVORbrand-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-6L-Stainless-Steel-Vinyl-200w-7-12-inch-Record-Records-Cleaning-Machine-Drying-Rack/572088176
I use filtered water, a small amount of 99% IP alcohol, and a small capful of Ilfoto. Then add 2 drops of dishwashing liquid soap to the water tank. The soap probably does nothing but makes me feel better.
I have some records that I never played due to clicking and popping that are really good now.
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It's good to see these easily available and cheap. They are such a great step up from the old vacuum cleaning devices.
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Vevor cleaner from walmart, it was less than $200 delivered to my home. They've raised the price $40 from when I bought it.
Came with everything needed to start cleaning records as well as a rack to dry them afterwards.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/VEVORbrand-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-6L-Stainless-Steel-Vinyl-200w-7-12-inch-Record-Records-Cleaning-Machine-Drying-Rack/572088176
I use filtered water, a small amount of 99% IP alcohol, and a small capful of Ilfoto. Then add 2 drops of dishwashing liquid soap to the water tank. The soap probably does nothing but makes me feel better.
I have some records that I never played due to clicking and popping that are really good now.
Am looking at getting one of these.
Are they considered a good option??
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Those are a great option, and at a price that is hard to beat even with a DIY rig. Buy it. Money well spent.
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Those are a great option, and at a price that is hard to beat even with a DIY rig. Buy it. Money well spent.
Thanks for the input.