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Other Stuff => Archived Circles => Hypex Owners Circle => Topic started by: jtwrace on 8 Apr 2012, 02:07 pm

Title: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 8 Apr 2012, 02:07 pm
This thread is for listening impressions from those in my NCore tour, and for closely related discussion.

If you have not heard the amps on this tour, or if you do not have a question for those who have, please do not post here. Instead, try one of these threads:

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 10 Apr 2012, 02:01 am
Ignore for a moment the "class" designation of the new Ncore amplifiers from Hypex, think instead of how you would view them if described as high speed analog amplifiers with only two MOSFET output devices. That is exactly what they are and I've been fortunate enough to have spent the last few days with a pair on loan from Jason W. (jtwrace)

This is not a review, just a few comments about what I think of these, hence it's not in the critics circle. I have not been a fan of class D amplifiers and until now have not heard a pair that I thought I could live with for the long term. I believe I could be very happy with a set of these an assuming mine ship with the next batch I'll find out.

In terms of sound, these give the impression of being invisible. A lush, rich recording sounds lush and rich, compressed and lean recordings sound that way. My audiophile buddy Jerry (turk) came over on Saturday and we spent many happy hours listening to music and after a while both of us observed that we could not stay in an analytical mode. Instead of thinking about how it sounded, the thoughts were, my what an exquisite piece of music this is, how well played. I can think of no higher praise.

I tried to get some writing done on Saturday night, couldn't manage, I just kept falling into the music. Jerry used the word gravitas, meaning the music had more weight and emotion. I shared this with another friend who has heard these and his comment was "Gravitas yes indeed".

So rather than think of this as another class D amplifier, think of them as a high speed analog amplifier with only a pair of output devices. I was biased against class D but willing to listen, I'm delighted I did. The only sad part is I have to pack them up for shipping.

mike

Update - I've asked the facilitator to split the Q&A off of this thread into a new one. Please use this thread if you have heard the amps and have thoughts on that experience. Jason (jtwrace) is graciously sending his personal set out on tour and we would love to have the folks who participate provide some input on what they hear.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: JoshK on 10 Apr 2012, 02:03 am
You listened to these on your Abbey's?  What type of power supply was yours built with?

Josh
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 10 Apr 2012, 02:12 am
Hats off to you Mike, well said. When I heard them at jtwrace's it took me but a few minutes to realize we were on to something over the top special. I ordered mine, the very next day, and like you will hopefully be in receipt of my modules/powersupplies by May 2012.

Definitely has changed the landscape with regards to what most people EXPECT of class D. People should just forget about the class, turn on the amp (and be SHOCKED that you can't hear ANY noise from 95dB speakers) and enjoy.

In any case, it should be in your arsenal of amplifiers at least as a reference to compare. It is in the upper echelon of amplifiers I have heard. The price of admission is a pure bonus.

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 10 Apr 2012, 02:24 am
Thanks Mike and Anand.  I too am looking forward to an early May delivery.  For a few days after I sold my amp, based on a few conversations with folks I didn't know, the doubts started to fill my head. Coming from you two, whatever doubts remained have vanished.  As always, new gear is an experiment and the journey is the fun part. 

Will be interested in your full reviews when the time comes.

Phil
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 10 Apr 2012, 02:26 am
You listened to these on your Abbey's?  What type of power supply was yours built with?

Josh

Just the standard SMPS600 power supply. One for each channel. Yes, a switching supply. Yes...that good.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 10 Apr 2012, 02:28 am
Just the standard SMPS600 power supply. One for each channel. Yes, a switching supply. Yes...that good.

Best,
Anand.
A switching supply designed for audio and optimized for the NCore.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 10 Apr 2012, 03:09 am
Josh,

He used the SMPS supplies, the amps spec at something like 128dB S/N with the SMPS modules. I certainly had no noise issues.

Yep, driving the Abbey's. I guess I should have given a bit more context. :)

Sources - digital: DIY ES9018 DAC, exaU2I USB I2S, Buffalo 32, Lundahl output transformers - analog: custom Teres table, M0erch DP-6 arm, Soundsmith "The Voice" SE ebony cart, DIY J-FET phono stage.

Preamp: DIY 6SN7 based, all film caps, Swenson reg, Pimm CCS, 4:1 output trans for balanced outputs.

Cables: Kaplan Cable GS Mk II

Speakers: Gedlee Abbey 12 + 5 subs (3 Rythmik, 2 Peerless XXLS sealed)

Power: Bybee power conditioners x 2

Dedicated room with lots of GIK treatments.

You listened to these on your Abbey's?  What type of power supply was yours built with?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: brj on 10 Apr 2012, 03:24 am
Thanks for posting the comments, Mike - much appreciated!

Just a point of clarification... were you running the Ncores off the power conditioners as well, or straight from the wall?  Or did you have a chance to compare both configurations?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 10 Apr 2012, 03:30 am
Brian,

I had the amps plugged into one of the Bybee conditioners. I was going to swap it to wall power before packing them up tonight but just kept playing music, completely forgot about doing that.  :o
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: dspringham on 10 Apr 2012, 03:44 am
Mike,

Were you running them with single-ended or balanced inputs? The designer seems to place emphasis on balanced for optimum performance.

Regards,
Dave
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 10 Apr 2012, 05:51 pm
My amps are on the way to the next person who should have them tomorrow.  Maybe he will post his thoughts in the coming days too.   :dunno:  That's entirely up to him though. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 11 Apr 2012, 02:11 am
I can see concerns that this is just another fad. I've had those thoughts myself. But I certainly haven't had any notion that it is being force fed. In fact, I was completely unaware of it until I found the thread here on AC about a month ago.
By all accounts, it is a breakthrough product. Class D holds a lot of promise and the Ncore may just be the amplifier that brings that promise to fruition.
Besides, John, if you are going to be reading about it all the time anyway, you may as well benefit from owning the thing.
I'm expecting a pair to be delivered here tomorrow and frankly, I'm not at all concerned about how good the amps are. I'm already convinced of that from the testimonials and decisions I've observed. My only concern lies in whether or not I care anymore. I'm hoping the NC400 will reignite my interest. Over the last 10 years, I've observed a dizzying glut of product, immense complication from computer audio, etc., much more difficult resale, and escalating prices. Combine that with incredible, irreplaceable speakers and family complications in terms of use of space, and the bloom falls away from the rose.

So, when the offer came in to try these out for a year, I couldn't refuse. Maybe they will spark a resurgence (relapse) in my audio fervor. More later.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: timind on 11 Apr 2012, 02:30 am
I'm expecting a pair to be delivered here tomorrow and frankly, I'm not at all concerned about how good the amps are. I'm already convinced of that from the testimonials and decisions I've observed. My only concern lies in whether or not I care anymore.

Understand this completely. I'm listening to an integrated amp which I hope will stay for a long time. So tired of searching for the holy grail.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cujobob on 11 Apr 2012, 04:43 pm
If Mike likes it it must be good, but with cheaper Class D SDS amps available and the F5 Turbo amp being released, I don't know...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 11 Apr 2012, 08:20 pm
Malcolm - I think I can say from having watched your history that this amp will ring your bell. However, I'm sitting here awaiting delivery right now so the above comment is pure conjecture.

I'd be happy to let you know about my build but I haven't even ordered the modules yet and it takes 7-8 weeks to get them after you order. So my build is a couple of months away if I choose to do it at all. The reason I feel pretty confident about the raw approach I outlined comes from having seen numerous photos of amps assembled temporarily on boards with no problems noted.

You are one the more adventurous audiophiles I could name and your quest seems to be relentless so you may as well spring for these now as later. They were good enough for Jason to replace his monster Clayton mono blocks with them. There's a man who voted with his money. And I can assure you he is no fool.

P.S. You're the builder so, if you had noise problems, you could just redo your design. Or attach everything to a metal plate and then put four wooden sides around the plate. I'm no DIY guy but the photos I've seen say even I can do this.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 11 Apr 2012, 09:23 pm
Please don't say that, my opinion is no more or less important than anyone else's.

If Mike likes it it must be good, but with cheaper Class D SDS amps available and the F5 Turbo amp being released, I don't know...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: santacore on 12 Apr 2012, 04:55 pm
I have balanced input SDS amps currently in play and will be comparing the Hypex when I get them. I'm hoping to even use the same case/connectors for both, which would make comparison all the more interested.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 12 Apr 2012, 06:24 pm
I doubt if you guys are going to get far trying to level the playing field. If the Ncores are plugged in and turned on, all arguments about over. These things are just plain phenomenal. At one time back in the mid 1990s I had a Goldmund Mimesis 9, the original Aleph O monos and a pair of Rowland 6 monos to compare. I played all of them through a tremendous little passive preamp called the Reference Line 3000. And ultimately, I gave a grudging edge to the Golmund. But I'm using that same passive into Jason's NC400s right now as I type, and it surpasses anything else I've ever heard. For you detail freaks it will certainly be the end of the road. For headbangers, all amps are equal. For the fire bottle crowd, there will be much handwringing, rationalization and procrastinating but the honest ones will finally just have to accede to the moment, the come to jesus moment, and allow that this is much more emotionally charged and handwringingly honest than anything ever emitted from behind their NOS rose-colored glasses.
Hypex has grabbed the deed. They now own hi-end amplification.

I will admit that I've heard some stridency and some sibilance but they go away when the CD is changed or, for that matter, from one track to the next so I goddasay it ain't the amps fault.

And I tell you all this with a heavy heart - because I was kinda hoping that I wouldn't have to buy them. I just acquired my Yamaha A-S2000 a few months ago and I've been congratulating myself ever since for having the savvy to get an all in one answer to everything.

I bought a JRDG Capri preamp to use in these test listens and I will be installing it later today. It's still in a sealed box so I'm sure it will get better over time but I'm interested in whether or not it will be good enough to not hold the Ncores back. If so, it might be an ideal choice for many of you. Unfortunately, they don't come up used very often. Mine was $3500 in black with onboard phono. I have had one of these before so I know my way around it pretty well. I always felt it was likely better than the JRDG 102 companion amp I used it with. Now I'll find out.

Anyhow, I know I'm not one of the guru honcho word of god members here, and might therefore be ignored or taken lightly. Nonetheless, I wanted to share my early impression of this much ballyhooed amp. It appears to me to be the biggest bargain ever to cross my threshold. According to my calculations, Americans can build a nicely finished pair of these for under $2K. Most of us have amplifiers to sell that are worth more than that.

If i can articulate anything more after further listening, I will do so.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 12 Apr 2012, 06:44 pm
Very nicely said macrojack :thumb:

Whatever you "hear", you need to look further upstream.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 12 Apr 2012, 06:57 pm
Nice write-up macrojack.

While I am a tube lover (I have 46 tubes between my amps and preamp), I do have an open mind and I am really looking forward to hearing the amps in my system.

From a pure cost, ease of use, and maintenance standpoint, I want the Hypex amps to sound as good or better than my Atma-Sphere MA-1's.  If they do, I will happily move to them and never look back.

Guess I will know towards the end of next week when I get a package from you.   :wink:

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 12 Apr 2012, 07:09 pm
Well said Tom.

I was trying to restrain my enthusiasm but really, it's much like your reaction.

Like George, I wanted to reduce the number of tubes in my system and the consequent heat. I started looking for a suitable replacement in December, before I even knew of the NCore, so there was no influence from these prior to the current impressions. I sold the Atma-Sphere, having decided that no matter what the NCore sounded like, I needed to simplify and have been living with less since then. It seems I will soon have my modules; I received a ship notification from Hypex today and assuming UPS doesn't lose them, delivery is Monday.  8)

mike
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: brj on 13 Apr 2012, 07:01 am
Jim/JDUBS, is there any chance you have pics of your friend's implementation?  It sounds intriguing.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 13 Apr 2012, 11:12 am
I get that. You like the way it sounds over the music. Or rather you like your system's sonic characteristics for all your music.

My own amp is said to be very tubelike, it's a tripath, but even as sweet as this sounds I'd rather go for neutrality and clarity above all. Let the recording through.

And as far as synergy, well, as this amp has the finesse   to apparently match or beat anything, I think this is a situation where you let the amp dictate the synergy and you choose pieces from there until you get it right. If these amps are as good as being reported, and you kind of have to believe it at this point, why would you let any other piece of gear dictate things?

I get it though, there will always be tube amps. The thing I'm saying is, a lot less people are going to want to pay the premium for what is now lesser performance.

People will just use buffers I think, if they want that tube flavor.

Let's not jump the gun and start saying this is the best and nothing is better.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 14 Apr 2012, 01:37 am
timind - I haven't any experience with the Bel Canto pieces you mention but your description seems apt for the Ncore 400s. The seeming lack of a noise floor is surely part of the impression but I also am struck by the timbre of percussion and the remarkable way it reproduces metallic sounds. The clocks and chimes at the beginning of "Time" from DSOTM is very alarming (pardon the pun) and the vibes I heard on MJQ this afternoon were very "in the room" lifelike. There's more there there. The presentation stands out in front of my speakers in a phantom spirit sort of way. The fun is more fun. I think anybody who has a chance to put them in his/her system will buy them.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 14 Apr 2012, 02:16 pm
In a private email to Jason this morning, I included this observation which he suggested I publish. It could be important to some of you who live with others who keep different hours or just don't want to hear your music playing loudly all the time. Here it is:

And finally, this morning I got up about 5:00 A.M. Family still sleeping, I turned on the radio, made my tea and sat down to look at messages on my phone. All at once, I remembered what you said about your amps sounding very good at low volumes. What an understatement!! Some of what I heard may be due to the character and broadcast pattern of my horns ( meaning other people with more conventional speakers might not realize the same level of drama) but the sound was inaudible 25 feet down the hall from where I was sitting and was full and detailed at my position. Very musical, very convincing, very enjoyable sound coming in at whisper level. Quite a trick.

                                           ------------------------------------

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 16 Apr 2012, 08:15 pm
Well I can take us back on topic. I shipped the amps out to Zybar this morning and he is predicted to receive them Thursday.

After I recovered from my orgasmic trance, I settled in and listened much more carefully to the NC 400s. Still very impressed. I don't get out much since I'm lazy and there is nothing convenient to visit. So I don't have a lot of experience with the recent (last 15 years) headline grabbing amplification. My references are mostly pretty old. It remains true, however, that I have never heard anything as crisp, detailed, delineated and defined. The Ncore amps move to another level of focus. There was no glare despite acute detail, and no slurring. Lyrics are clear as could be and every note at any frequency seems to stand out prominently. I just don't have the vocabulary to bring the reality of it across with prose. You'll have to hear it for yourself. It may not be to your liking but you will be unable to find fault with it. Maybe you just won't be able to give up what you have now. There just doesn't seem to be any characteristic to the sound. And that may be objectionable to some listeners.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 16 Apr 2012, 08:29 pm
So I guess anyone who tries one of these amps and doesn't fall immediately in love with the sound (or lack of it) must have an affinity for colored sound?  Or they don't have a system resolving enough to truly understand the game-changing nature of this amp?  Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to trying the NC's in my system or at least hearing them at someone else's place sometime. 

I know this one is different but I've heard ICE and Hypex amps in the past and although there were things I liked about them, they didn't blow me away.  So far, I prefer Class A sound over Class D, but I don't like having a 60lb piece of steel capable of frying bacon heating my room, especially in the summer.  Small, cool and efficient amps would be a big bonus for me, especially if they sound as good as everyone says the N-Core sounds. 

If half the hype is true, it looks like they might have a real winner on their hands.  Of course, you can't spell Hypex without "hype".  Just saying.

Cheers,

J
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: emailtim on 16 Apr 2012, 10:20 pm
... Still very impressed. ...

What speakers were you driving with them?

Are you going to pull the trigger and order some ?

Thanks,
Tim
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 16 Apr 2012, 11:03 pm
It has just occurred to me that Zybar represents a first in this tour. Mike, Jason and I all have horns although I believe theirs are called waveguides. George will be the first (of our group) to try them with cone midrange drivers. That might be more meaningful to most of you.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 16 Apr 2012, 11:59 pm
Here is the system I will be auditioning the amps in:

Room description:

The previous owners used these two rooms as their formal living room and dining room. The "front" part of the room has an opening on the left side to the two story foyer. The "back" of the room has a open doorway into the kitchen with a bank of windows on the right side.

Acoustic Treatment:

Generous amounts of room treatments from www.realtraps.com are used throughout the space: 8 - Minitraps 6 - Tri-Corner traps 2 - Mondo traps 3 - Diffusors

Component listing:

Digital Source:   Bryston BDP-1/Bryston BDA-1
Preamp:           Atma-Sphere MP-1 MK 3.1 with NOS 6SN7 tubes
Power Amp:     Atma-Sphere MA-1 MK 3.1 mono blocks on SRA Platforms with NOS 6SN7 tubes
Speakers:      Vandersteen 5A's in Birdseye Maple
Subwoofer:    none - 5A's have built in subwoofer with EQ
Speaker Cables:   Morrow Audio SP4 (two independent runs)
Interconnects:   Morrow Audio SP6 and SP4 xlr ic's
Power Cables:   Kaplan Cable (Conditioner Cords Copper and Rhodium)
Racking:        Sistrum SP-4 Platform, Sistrum SP-004 for the Uber Buss
Power            
Conditioning:
       Pi Audio Uber Buss with Kaplan Cable Copper Cord, Furman IT Ref-20i with Kaplan Cable Copper Cord
Other
Components:
   Speltz Zero Autoformers in Maple - turns a 4ohm speaker into a 8-16 ohm speaker from an amplification perspective


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-hfxXDNU_n_U/TjVF0KsfP3I/AAAAAAAAO14/rQIsQuYJnls/s1600/DSC_2072.NEF.jpg)


George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Apr 2012, 12:37 am

JTWRace is very generous and trusting, letting people demo his cool new amp.  Although I missed the original sign up, I'm hoping to hear it at Roscoe's place.

Cheers

Jack

Thanks.  I'm really glad that I'm doing this as most of the people here are good people.  Yes, you did miss the first one. Will there be second tour?  Let's get through the first one and see how it goes. 

I do know that this is my current amp.  It's a 45 yr old Leach that my dad built in college.  Yes, it sounds pretty freakin' good too.  Well, that's not hard to do when there is no other choice.   :wink:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61306)





So I guess anyone who tries one of these amps and doesn't fall immediately in love with the sound (or lack of it) must have an affinity for colored sound?  Or they don't have a system resolving enough to truly understand the game-changing nature of this amp?  Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to trying the NC's in my system or at least hearing them at someone else's place sometime. 
Not at all.  I know that this will not be liked by everyone.  Whether I agree or not is completely irrelevant.  We all have differnt tastes and I'm good with that.  The purpose of the tour is so people with different systems, tastes and rooms can hear the same amp that I have other have and like.  That's it!  Nothing to hide...I certainly wouldn't be opening my amps for tour around the USA. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 17 Apr 2012, 03:21 am
 A very good review just posted and thought it might be appreciated here. From user Juhleren-


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-369.html


 Another ncore listening experience -head to head with AELPH F5

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just returned from visiting Olle in Stockholm where we spend about 2½ hours listening to his 2xNcore/2xSMPS600 amp and comparing it to his AELPH F5 mono blocks.
(Please correct me if i´m wrong, but the only mod that had been done to the ncore´s was removing a resister for gain reduction of 13dB. Other specifics of the fine system is best supplied by Olle himself)

Because Olle has a very nice and well-though-through system that differs quite a lot from my own system, it is important to note that the listening observations I share here reflects what we heard (and my subjective interpretation) in his specific system, and the emphasis is therefore on how the nocre´s compared to the aelph f5. -A reference that others may be able to relate to.

First we compared the two amps in a single-speaker setup with his Carlsson inspired omnipolar speakers (mentioned and shown earlier in this thread) placed up against each other in the middle of the room. We could thereby throughout the music switch between the two amps without knowing which one where playing.

Both amps sounded very good and there only appeared to be very slight tonal differences. Apparently speaker placement made as much difference in that test setup so I won´t commit to any conclusive result other than the amps appear to be very similarly balanced and that the small nuances that gave them away from each other, were comparative to the effect of switching between the two speakers (and thereby their specific in-room placement).

After that we made a more conventional stereo test with small bookshelf speakers that were based on the SEAS T14RCY/P 5" woofer and a 19mm SEAS alu tweeter. We listened to the same music material again at very moderate listening level. My guess is that the speakers were around 87db/W/M so we have max had one or two watt at peaks. –No sweat for either amp in other words.

In this setup the differences between the amps were much more noticeable, though both amps definitely sounded very good. No bashing :-)

In comparison the ncore´s presented the music with noticeable more scale and focus. The AELPHs, though very good, seemed a bit restricted and appeared to let the bass content slightly blur the midrange.
The AELPHs seemed ever so slightly softer but not by much. The ncore´s, on the other hand, definitely didn´t sound hard in any way.

I can see why some like the AELPHs, but if one is after an amp that makes the speaker produce what the source is delivering as accurately as possible, the ncore´s were the clear winner. -I am starting to save up for them at least :-)
–any used ncore bargains out there for sale yet ;-)

As a side note (and note that this has NOT been based on a direct “head to head” comparison), I would say that what impressed me the most about the ncore is the way it made the small speakers sound so dynamically unrestricted and precise at the same time. One of the things I know that my own two class D amps (Acoustic Reality Ear Two and ucd100oem) both suffer from, is a slightly restricted "sound envelope" compared to my class AB amps (nxV200 and NCC200). It´s like the ICE´s and UCD´s cut out a slightly more restricted "window" of the material, and then presents this "cut out" very good, focused and clear -but nevertheless slightly restricted in scale.

With the ncore, this kind of "envelope" or "window"- size restriction didn´t seem to play in and it presented both a bigger and more accurately rendered picture than the AELPHs. It was like the dynamic range and bandwidth of the source was remarkably improved through the ncore´s. Not just a clearer and more precise picture but it was also presented in a larger frame -so to speak.

If this is what Bruno meant when he earlier in this thread mentioned that the ncore presents with a better balance between the individual instrument and the whole orchestra -and in that way enables the listener to better hear both the single instrument and wholeness of the complete composition, I believe that this is what I experienced at Olles today.

In comparison to how my memories serve the UCD´s at home, the ncore gave me an impression of noticeably tighter and detailed image-focus and presence that was more refined in relation to the whole picture. I recall the UCD´s as presenting the individual instruments less precise and at the same time taking up more “space” in the smaller “frame”.

Many thanks to Olle for offering me a chance to listen to his fine system and the ncore´s and for a “jättetrevligt visit”! –as they say on Swedish :-)

Best
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 17 Apr 2012, 03:25 am
just read that review.  Since a little ICE amp is playing right now (and not too bad at all, really), this part intrigues me:    "It´s like the ICE´s and UCD´s cut out a slightly more restricted "window" of the material, and then presents this "cut out" very good, focused and clear -but nevertheless slightly restricted in scale.

With the ncore, this kind of "envelope" or "window"- size restriction didn´t seem to play in and it presented both a bigger and more accurately rendered picture than the AELPHs."
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 20 Apr 2012, 05:12 pm
Well the amps arrived safely and they are now installed in my system.

I am not ready yet to talk about how they sound, but I will say that they certainly aren't embarrassing themselves in any way. 

I'll try and get some first impressions posted tonight or tomorrow.

George

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 20 Apr 2012, 10:24 pm
Well the amps arrived safely and they are now installed in my system.

I am not ready yet to talk about how they sound, but I will say that they certainly aren't embarrassing themselves in any way. 

I'll try and get some first impressions posted tonight or tomorrow.

George

I sure would love to hear this amp comparison.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 21 Apr 2012, 01:12 pm
I sure would love to hear this amp comparison.

+1 :D :D :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Apr 2012, 11:06 pm
+1 :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 12:47 am
Ok, here are just a few comments as I won't have time till tomorrow to really write something.

1.  The amps are darn good - period!! 

2.  I really don't care whether they are Class D, A, A/B, etc...they make music and are very engaging.

3.  These amps are one the BEST values I have come across in the last 15 years!  To get this level of performance for this amount of money is just insane!

4.  Strengths: 

Fast, detailed, and dead quiet. 
Very engaging and does a great job drawing you into the music. 
Lots of slam and impact. 
Can play at high levels (over 100 db peaks) with no distortion, compression, or hardness
Small form factor and energy draw
Extra power/headroom is greatly appreciated

5.  Weaknesses: 

Not as spacious and big sounding as my current amps
Female vocals aren't quite as sexy and seductive sounding
No glowing tubes   :o


I'll post more tomorrow. 

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Apr 2012, 12:57 am
Not as spacious and big sounding as my current amps
I agree but that's one of the things that the A-S OTL's did for me that I didn't like.  TO ME, it was very unrealistic...

Look forward to more thoughts! 

Will you be trying them on your HT too?  Even if you just tried them on that brand....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 22 Apr 2012, 01:16 am
Wow another stellar review. Hope a more detailed comparison with the Atmas is possible.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: saisunil on 22 Apr 2012, 01:57 am
Any comparison with TRL Samsons would be appreciated and supremely interesting ...
If N-Core is arm's length away from the Samsons - I am in :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 03:25 am
I agree but that's one of the things that the A-S OTL's did for me that I didn't like.  TO ME, it was very unrealistic...

Look forward to more thoughts! 

Will you be trying them on your HT too?  Even if you just tried them on that brand....

Probably not, but you never know.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 22 Apr 2012, 05:28 am
Shoot a photo George.....thanks. :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 22 Apr 2012, 08:57 am
Ok, here are just a few comments as I won't have time till tomorrow to really write something.

1.  The amps are darn good - period!! 

2.  I really don't care whether they are Class D, A, A/B, etc...they make music and are very engaging.

3.  These amps are one the BEST values I have come across in the last 15 years!  To get this level of performance for this amount of money is just insane!

4.  Strengths: 

Fast, detailed, and dead quiet. 
Very engaging and does a great job drawing you into the music. 
Lots of slam and impact. 
Can play at high levels (over 100 db peaks) with no distortion, compression, or hardness
Small form factor and energy draw
Extra power/headroom is greatly appreciated

5.  Weaknesses: 

Not as spacious and big sounding as my current amps
Female vocals aren't quite as sexy and seductive sounding
No glowing tubes   :o


I'll post more tomorrow. 

George


George,
thanks for the quick revue.
Very promissing.
Can you tell us how sensitive your speakers are
The Ncore "only" delivers 200/400w at 8/4 ohm
(speakers with 85db/w as maggies needs a lots of watts)

Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 22 Apr 2012, 09:03 am

George,
thanks for the quick revue.
Very promissing.
Can you tell us how sensitive your speakers are
The Ncore "only" delivers 200/400w at 8/4 ohm
(speakers with 85db/w as maggies needs a lots of watts)

Jerry

George has Vandersteen 5A's.

From Vandersteen:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE
22Hz to 30kHz + or - 2dB
 
EFFICIENCY
87dB at 1 meter with a 2.83 volt input.

RECOMMENDED AMPLIFIER
40 TO 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms for the upper section, 400-watt subwoofer amplifier built in.

IMPEDANCE
6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 22 Apr 2012, 11:50 am
George has Vandersteen 5A's.

From Vandersteen:

FREQUENCY RESPONSE
22Hz to 30kHz + or - 2dB
 
EFFICIENCY
87dB at 1 meter with a 2.83 volt input.

RECOMMENDED AMPLIFIER
40 TO 200 watts per channel into 8 ohms for the upper section, 400-watt subwoofer amplifier built in.

IMPEDANCE
6 ohms nominal, 4 ohms minimum.

Thakns for the information.
I will keep in mind that with a build-in sub the lowest bass - the deep bass will not be powered by the Ncore.
Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 12:07 pm
Thakns for the information.
I will keep in mind that with a build-in sub the lowest bass - the deep bass will not be powered by the Ncore.
Jerry

100Hz and below is handled by the built in subs.

I will be trying the amps in a friend's system which features Wilson Sasha speakers.  Not only are they full range, they also have a fairly low and tough impedance curve.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 12:09 pm
Shoot a photo George.....thanks. :thumb:

Not really much to see Chris...

Take the picture of my system, take out the beautiful Atma-Sphere amps, and put two small black boxes without faceplates in their place.   :eyebrows:

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 12:11 pm

George,
thanks for the quick revue.
Very promissing.
Can you tell us how sensitive your speakers are
The Ncore "only" delivers 200/400w at 8/4 ohm
(speakers with 85db/w as maggies needs a lots of watts)

Jerry

You will have no problem driving the Maggies to very loud levels.

I have hit peaks over 100db's and felt like the system could go louder (although my ears certainly didn't want to).

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Big Red Machine on 22 Apr 2012, 01:13 pm
Were these diy'd by someone and then sent out?

Single ended IC's?  Or were these set up with xlr's and truly balanced?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Apr 2012, 01:41 pm
Were these diy'd by someone and then sent out?

Single ended IC's?  Or were these set up with xlr's and truly balanced?

Pete,

The are jtwrace's pair.  He is being super generous and allowing people to audition the amps.

They are xlr only.

For those who don't have xlr, TomS sent me some adapters which I am including in the package.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 22 Apr 2012, 09:48 pm
A little follow up, I got my amps running last Monday and have found nothing to change my opinion thus far.

There isn't a lot to say about the sound, they seem to just get out of the way, in a good way that is, they just allow the music to flow. I did have the opportunity for a comparison today, a friend brought over his Luxman M-600, a 30WPC class A amp. I've heard the Luxman before in my system and his and it's always been rich though I found it lacking in the perceived speed and extension compared my Atma-Sphere. Swapping in the Luxman for the NC400 was a surprise in a few ways. It sounded rather compressed and muddled in comparison and the biggest surprised was the harmonic richness, where we both expected the Luxman to shine, was actually better with the NCore. Swapping the amps back made the differences even clearer, there was just more musical information with the Hypex amps.

Both were run in balanced mode, same cables, stand and everything else, just the amps were changed.

While I'm sure the little NC isn't for everyone, I'm all smiles every time I listen to music. Played some Bob Marley on vinyl Friday night, never heard it like that before, had to play side two a second time just because I enjoyed it so much.

Looking forward to George's comments on how it drives a harder load than what I have.

mike
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: santacore on 22 Apr 2012, 10:13 pm
Quote
Played some Bob Marley on vinyl Friday night, never heard it like that before, had to play side two a second time just because I enjoyed it so much.

 :thumb:

Can't wait to get mine in the next batch!!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2012, 12:30 am
I know almost nothing about electronics but I do know the answer to most of the questions that are being asked here over and over again. That's because I read the information provided by Hypex on their website. Jtwrace has linked that same info to us numerous times and still the same questions are repeated.

Please do us all a favor - if you are generally interested in these amplifiers (as I think you should be) then learn from the man who designed them instead of asking other members to misinform you.

Now, for my part, when I had these amps in my house, I simply hooked them up to a Reference Line 3000 passive preamp I bought from a friend for $200 back around 1994. There was no noise. The ambient SPL in my living room in the middle of the night with everything turned off and everybody sleeping registers at 54 db. With the amps turned on, no source selected, and the gain on the passive at noon, the SPL was the same.

So, regardless of what should happen, would happen or could happen, nothing was heard. These things are dead silent. Oh, and by the way, that was into 108 db efficient horns.

It may take some of you a good while to overcome your prejudices but I can tell you that the case appears to be closed. The NC400 is flat out better than anything AC members can afford to buy. This, I'm afraid, will include the fire bottles. If you really mean it when you say,"It's all about the music", then it's gonna have to be all about NCore. On a purely sonic basis, they are about as good as anybody could require.

Not sure if they "are as good as anybody could require", but as I already posted...THEY ARE DAMN GOOD!!

I have thrown every type of music I listen to at them and I just want to keep playing more.   :dance:

I see a late night of listening before they ship off in the morning.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: MoonUnit on 23 Apr 2012, 02:42 am
I don't think I've ever read reviews of a product that are so overwhelmingly positive! I'm not looking forward to getting rid of my current amp, but you guys have me pretty much sold.

Are there any weaknesses at all to these amps?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2012, 02:47 am
Thanks again to Jason for making this happen and giving me the opportunity to hear them for myself.

Below is my last playlist with the amps (looks like the artist info got stripped out on many tracks - you can probably figure out the artist - but ask if you can't).

I'll post further on the amps in the next day or two.

George


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61608)




Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 23 Apr 2012, 05:42 am
George, are the Ncores directly connected to the 5As or are the Speltz Zero Autoformers in between the Ncore amps and the speakers.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 23 Apr 2012, 10:42 am
George, are the Ncores directly connected to the 5As or are the Speltz Zero Autoformers in between the Ncore amps and the speakers.
Scotty

Direct.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Apr 2012, 03:42 pm
Thanks again to Jason for making this happen and giving me the opportunity to hear them for myself.
:thumb: 

Quote
I'll post further on the amps in the next day or two.
I know I'm very much looking forward to it and I'm sure others are too. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 24 Apr 2012, 12:39 pm
I'm poised to take delivery of the Ncores today. I'll offer as much info as possible about how they integrate with my system. I also have single ended and balanced ICs to compare. Following is a list of gear I'll be using, and a pic.

SYSTEM

Amp – DIY Tripath mono blocks from HiFimeDIY, 300w@4ohms per ch. These have been modded with AudioCap Theta input caps and ASC pio caps in the power supply. Connexelectronic SMPS500R for each mono block.

             Tube Audio Design TAD-1000 tube mono blocks 100w per ch.

Transport – McCormack SST-1

DAC – Tube Audio Design TDAC with cryoed Valvo E80CC gold pin tubes.

Pre – W4S STP-SE

          Pass B1 

Speakers – Magnestand MMGs w/current best xover.

Subwoofer – Rythmik Audio F12G modified by Danny with about 15lbs of floor tiles adhered to the inside of cabinet walls.   

Interconnects – DIY braided Neotech solid 24awg pcocc with silver over copper rca plugs.

                     14ft star quad ofc shielded, balanced cable with Neutrik connectors. 

Digital Cable – Neotech pcocc double shielded silver with Furutech BNCs.

Power Cords – Neotech pcocc shielded three conductor with gold plated over copper Furutech plugs for pre, transport and DAC. Same wire for amps but Neotech plugs with gold over copper.                           

Speaker Cable – Black Cat Morpheus and various DIY. I keep coming back to the 6awg Home Depot copper with Vampire gold over copper spades. The Home Depot cables are 2ft long.

Accessories – Maple platforms, cork/rubber supports, aircraft aluminum w/some kind of vinyl multi-layered platform with spring feet for transport. 2x2 foam in strategic locations.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=61652)

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 24 Apr 2012, 04:43 pm
Very nice system Chris.

I have always wanted to hear a pair of the Magnestand speakers.

George

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 24 Apr 2012, 06:07 pm

 Nice Chris! I have some too, so can't wait to read your report, that's a nice surprise. I also have a tripath amp, but of much less power than your mono's. They say Maggies get better and better, moreso than other speaker types, with better and better power, so I am very interested in your Ncore/Magnestand combo.

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f17/iostream1/WP_001019.jpg) Still don't have a decent camera, mine are in mahena/spalted sycamore. Love them.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Apr 2012, 06:23 pm
I've been informed that they've arrived and am going through the motions...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Apr 2012, 06:27 pm
Very nice system Chris.

I have always wanted to hear a pair of the Magnestand speakers.

George

So George, are you missing the Ncores in your system?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 24 Apr 2012, 06:37 pm
I'm sitting at the computer while the NCores are warming with the Isotek disc. I will comment on sound and integration with my system . . . in about a month. :green:

Kidding! :lol:

Thanks, George, I'm really enjoying the speakers.

Rclark, I thought you might be interested.

Right now they are connected with my single ended ICs. I'm going to listen today/tonight this way. I'll then connect the balanced cables and listen for any differences tomorrow.

Later.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 24 Apr 2012, 07:56 pm
So George, are you missing the Ncores in your system?

I am.

Luckily I have something that is excellent to listen to while I wait for my Ncore order to arrive.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 24 Apr 2012, 09:53 pm
I am.

Luckily I have something that is excellent to listen to while I wait for my Ncore order to arrive.

George

Now that is a great statement for the Ncores.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 24 Apr 2012, 10:11 pm
I guess that is the bottom line...Would really appreciate a more complete review though....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 24 Apr 2012, 10:17 pm
OK, here's my take after 2.5 hours of listening to very familiar discs. :drool: :banana piano: :hyper:

How do they sound. Best I can tell, they don't. Been said before, they just get out of the way. I listened very carefully for glare, sibilance, and harshness on songs that were difficult to listen to for that very reason. Substantially reduced from other amps in the system. In fact, a couple of those discs sounded down right sweet. Tells me my components and cables in front of the amps are doing a good job.

I was made more aware of instruments and sounds that were there before but covered to a degree. Much better layering of instruments and voices. Clean, clear, open, and defined. Less grain than I was hearing before.

More to come . . .
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 24 Apr 2012, 10:23 pm
I guess that is the bottom line...Would really appreciate a more complete review though....

you can read the 340 page diyaudio thread where this originated, the 6moons review, I'm sure there's lots more to read too.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 24 Apr 2012, 10:30 pm
Done that. Was waiting for George's review...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 24 Apr 2012, 10:31 pm
He liked them  :scratch:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: maxwalrath on 24 Apr 2012, 10:44 pm
OK, here's my take after 2.5 hours of listening to very familiar discs. :drool: :banana piano: :hyper:

How do they sound. Best I can tell, they don't. Been said before, they just get out of the way.

My question (not just to you Chris) about getting out of the way is...how "out of the way" can an amp get? When I think of characteristics of amps I've enjoyed in my system, bass slam and impact, airy imaging, and ability to sound amazing at low levels (which I have seen written about the NCore) come to mind. Can someone compare the bass of the NCore to other amps?

I guess I'm left wanting for more "compared to ______ amp, the _____ (insert generic audiophile "quality" here) of the NCore was __________ to my ears."
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 24 Apr 2012, 11:02 pm
He liked them  :scratch:

Yeah, I got that....He said he would be writing an in depth review which I am looking forward to....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 24 Apr 2012, 11:10 pm
Oh he did... Ok, I'm with you then.

Hey Chris, nice review, keep it coming man, your experience is what I'm gonna get out of it. Except I'll also get the huge jump in power, something you already had lots of.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 24 Apr 2012, 11:40 pm
One thing I'd like to point out with the NCores is the ability to act the same at super low SPL's as they do when cranked up.  The low level detail is something I"ve NEVER heard before regardless of amp. 

This is something that city or apartment dwellers might really enjoy. 

Try it! 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 24 Apr 2012, 11:50 pm
My question (not just to you Chris) about getting out of the way is...how "out of the way" can an amp get? When I think of characteristics of amps I've enjoyed in my system, bass slam and impact, airy imaging, and ability to sound amazing at low levels (which I have seen written about the NCore) come to mind. Can someone compare the bass of the NCore to other amps?

I guess I'm left wanting for more "compared to ______ amp, the _____ (insert generic audiophile "quality" here) of the NCore was __________ to my ears."

I'll try and write something along these lines soon.  Just might take a few days.

George

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Apr 2012, 12:04 am
One thing I'd like to point out with the NCores is the ability to act the same at super low SPL's as they do when cranked up.  The low level detail is something I"ve NEVER heard before regardless of amp. 

This is something that city or apartment dwellers might really enjoy. 

Try it!

An aspect of the amp I am very excited about.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 25 Apr 2012, 12:33 am
One thing I'd like to point out with the NCores is the ability to act the same at super low SPL's as they do when cranked up.  The low level detail is something I"ve NEVER heard before regardless of amp. 

This is something that city or apartment dwellers might really enjoy. 

Try it!

this is certainly interesting.  ime, i have found this to be more related to what speaker is being used.  i get great low-level details w/my piega p5 mkii ltd's and my oris-based horn set-up.

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: sts9fan on 25 Apr 2012, 12:44 am
this is certainly interesting.  ime, i have found this to be more related to what speaker is being used.  i get great low-level details w/my piega p5 mkii ltd's and my oris-based horn set-up.

doug s.

I agree with you Doug 100%.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 25 Apr 2012, 02:15 am
Excellent questions, gentlemen. I will have much more time tomorrow to listen and reflect so I, hopefully, can offer some answers. Maggies are not known for their low level abilities, so it will be interesting for sure. I also plan to turn off the sub and do some comparisons with my other amps.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Apr 2012, 03:40 pm
this is certainly interesting.  ime, i have found this to be more related to what speaker is being used.  i get great low-level details w/my piega p5 mkii ltd's and my oris-based horn set-up.

doug s.
OK.  And I stated my experience with this amp compared to other amps.  It's purely an subjective opinion wtih the NCore amps that I've mentioned.  If you listen to the NCore then maybe you can give your feedback.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Hank on 25 Apr 2012, 04:03 pm
I'd like to hear them too - I'm in Austin, TX.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 25 Apr 2012, 04:56 pm
Does anyone on the amp tour own a SET or First Watt amp to compare to the Ncores?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 25 Apr 2012, 05:05 pm
Does anyone on the tour have a ClassDAudio SDS amplifier? That's the comparison I'm most interested in.


Thanks,

Slush
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 25 Apr 2012, 05:06 pm
Does anyone on the tour have a ClassDAudio SDS amplifier? That's the comparison I'm most interested in.


Thanks,

Slush
I used to own a few of them....no comparison IMO.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: santacore on 25 Apr 2012, 05:12 pm
I used to own a few of them....no comparison IMO.

That's good news as I'm currently running a SDS, which have been really impressing me, and should get the NC400 soon.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 25 Apr 2012, 05:24 pm
I used to own a few of them....no comparison IMO.

Thanks! I almost pulled the trigger on a SDS-470 a while back, but spent the money on a new source instead. Glad I waited.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 25 Apr 2012, 05:31 pm
That's good news as I'm currently running a SDS, which have been really impressing me, and should get the NC400 soon.

Cool  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 25 Apr 2012, 06:05 pm
I used to own a few of them....no comparison IMO.

I've had several ask me, and I built my own SDS 254, see my gallery for info. I have since sold my unit, but I agree with jtwrace, the Ncore is in a class of its own.

FWIW if my gainclone (see gallery) is a 7/10, and the SDS 254 is an 8/10, the Ncore is a 20/10. Much, much, better in other words.


Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 25 Apr 2012, 06:19 pm
I've had several ask me, and I built my own SDS 254, see my gallery for info. I have since sold my unit, but I agree with jtwrace, the Ncore is in a class of its own.

FWIW if my gainclone (see gallery) is a 7/10, and the SDS 254 is an 8/10, the Ncore is a 20/10. Much, much, better in other words.


Best,
Anand.

Thanks Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: dspringham on 25 Apr 2012, 06:53 pm
I just placed my order. Does anyone know what delivery week they are scheduling for with the most recent orders?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 25 Apr 2012, 07:01 pm
Excellent questions, gentlemen. I will have much more time tomorrow to listen and reflect so I, hopefully, can offer some answers. Maggies are not known for their low level abilities, so it will be interesting for sure. I also plan to turn off the sub and do some comparisons with my other amps.

It gets interesting and more interesting... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 25 Apr 2012, 07:16 pm
Personally I can't answer the question of how they compare to the SDS amps but I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)

A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.

With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02.

mike

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Apr 2012, 07:20 pm
Does anyone on the amp tour own a SET or First Watt amp to compare to the Ncores?
Yes, I have a MiniWatt N3 (and maybe a Decware SE84B if it isn't sold by the time I get the ncore) that I can pair with Hornshoppe Horns

Does anyone on the tour have a ClassDAudio SDS amplifier? That's the comparison I'm most interested in.


Thanks,

Slush

I have a CDS-254 (think I got the model number right) that I can compare when I get the ncore. I will do that comparison on my SP Tech Minis. Also to be compared is a Butler 2250
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 25 Apr 2012, 07:24 pm
Personally I can't answer the question of how they compare to the SDS amps but I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)


With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02

Wow. W.O.W. :drool:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mhconley on 25 Apr 2012, 07:28 pm
I would love to have compared them side-by-side in my system with my Bang & Olufsen ICEpower 1000ASP monoblocks, unfortunately I did not see jtwrace's tour offer soon enough.  Anyone else on the tour able to make that direct comparison?

My ICEpower monoblocks blew away my Parasound Halo A 21 with low SPL detail, air, spaciousness, soundstage and pure dynamics.  The transient response is simply amazing - they seem much "faster" than the Parasound amp.

Martin
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 25 Apr 2012, 07:31 pm
Wow. W.O.W. :drool:

Many of those were loaners but I've bought a lot as well, sad for my wallet.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 25 Apr 2012, 07:37 pm
Does anyone on the amp tour own a SET or First Watt amp to compare to the Ncores?
I DIY'd an F3, F4 monoblocks, Aleph J, and a couple of F5's, all gone or disassembled now, so I can't compare directly but I spent a lot of time with each of them. The NCores might be a distant cousin sonically to the F5 (not the others), but from memory the NCores have more power, more body in the mids, and are just more real and natural sounding than any of those amps. They never seem to breathe very hard either.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: face on 25 Apr 2012, 07:47 pm
I'd love to compare these to a pair of Wyred SX-500 monos... 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 25 Apr 2012, 08:03 pm
Personally I can't answer the question of how they compare to the SDS amps but I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)

A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.

With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02.

mike

I was convinced before you posted this. The only thing i want to compare these to is the Hexatex class-D amps. Like this one i heard.
http://www.hexateq.com/reference_series.html
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 25 Apr 2012, 08:37 pm
Hexatex is UCD. We already know from both Bruno (the designer of both the UCD and Ncore) and others who have listened to both that the Ncore is significantly better...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 25 Apr 2012, 09:14 pm
Hexatex is UCD. We already know from both Bruno (the designer of both the UCD and Ncore) and others who have listened to both that the Ncore is significantly better...

Nice!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 25 Apr 2012, 09:39 pm
Those Hexateqs are in nice boxes and makes me think mono amps, rather than a one-chassis dual mono, is the way to go.

I don't have two matching (same manufacturer) power cords for the monos however.  Some amps don't care.  Any opinions about the Ncore with different cords, soundwise?

This thread was like group therapy for a while, but now I'm starting to count the days until they arrive.  Ah, audionervosa  :duh:

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Nick77 on 25 Apr 2012, 09:44 pm
Quote
       I don't have two matching (same manufacturer) power cords for the monos however.  Some amps don't care.  Any opinions about the Ncore with different cords, soundwise?
                                     

+1   :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: macrojack on 25 Apr 2012, 10:58 pm
I just pulled any two generic cords from the basket with no noticeable side effects. Of course, I have shown a remarkable immunity to PC fantasy over the years so my answer may be disqualified on that basis.

Rclark - Write down the day and time because I actually agree with you for once.
What I got from Mike's comment was exactly that.
If any of the amps on your list are items you dreamed of replacing your current amplifier with, them stop with all the comparison baloney.

So far, that I know of, we have two guys with OTL mono blocks and one guy with one of the finest class A amps available who have ordered the NC400s after direct comparison. We have several others who have ordered just because they can do two plus two. What are you waiting for?  John Atkinson?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: kevinh on 25 Apr 2012, 11:58 pm
Personally I can't answer the question of how they compare to the SDS amps but I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)

A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.

With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02.

mike


Thanks for the list. I have been thinking of the Ncores bridged for the Sound Labs, I have also been thinking of the Spectron mono's the Sound Labs like a lot of voltage swing.

Could you talks about the pros and cons of the NCores vs the Spectron, I know the speakers are different.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 12:09 am

Thanks for the list. I have been thinking of the Ncores bridged for the Sound Labs, I have also been thinking of the Spectron mono's the Sound Labs like a lot of voltage swing.

Could you talks about the pros and cons of the NCores vs the Spectron, I know the speakers are different.

Thanks.

My friend who heard the Ncores in his system this past weekend owns the fully loaded Spectron mono blocks and he thought the Ncores were significantly better across the board.  He also thought they were as good or better than his Lamm mono blocks. 

I have asked him to write up his thoughts and hopefully he will get to do that.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Russell Dawkins on 26 Apr 2012, 12:32 am
My friend who heard the Ncores in his system this past weekend owns the fully loaded Spectron mono blocks and he thought the Ncores were significantly better across the board.  He also thought they were as good or better than his Lamm mono blocks. 
George
Wow - high praise indeed. This plus mgalusha's list is pretty astonishing. Some of the only remaining ultra high-end amps not mentioned are the Ongaku, Gaku-On and the Yamaha B-1s but since, along with the Lamms, these are impossibly beyond my budget it's great to know that these are within reach and probably sound better, anyway!
Thank you Bruno.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 26 Apr 2012, 01:02 am
this is certainly interesting.  ime, i have found this to be more related to what speaker is being used.  i get great low-level details w/my piega p5 mkii ltd's and my oris-based horn set-up.

doug s.

OK.  And I stated my experience with this amp compared to other amps.  It's purely a subjective opinion with the NCore amps that I've mentioned.  If you listen to the NCore then maybe you can give your feedback.
hey!  i am not arguing or disagreeing.  i yust found it interesting.  at some point, i hope to pick up a pair or two...

and, as i have mentioned to you prewiously off-line; i think it is great that you are offering your amps on this listening tour;  :thumb:  as you know, i was willing to lend you a hypex ucd 180 amp to use while your amps were out making the rounds.

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 01:04 am
hey!  i am not arguing or disagreeing.  i yust found it interesting.  at some point, i hope to pick up a pair or two...

and, as i have mentioned to you prewiously off-line; i think it is great that you are offering your amps on this listening tour;  :thumb:  as you know, i was willing to lend you a hypex ucd 180 amp to use while your amps were out making the rounds.

doug s.
Yes, sir.   :thumb:

Sorry if it came out as harsh...not my intention. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 26 Apr 2012, 01:07 am
You guy's are killing me......   where do I order  :duh:

Come one down Pete, or mebbe I could bring them by one day. :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 Apr 2012, 01:37 am
George and Mike (Galusha),
You know my SP Tech Revs decently well....do you think the monoblocks (i.e not bridged/strapped) will be enough juice for these power hungry guys?  I will have one day of Randy's precious 3 days to tell, regardless.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 26 Apr 2012, 01:42 am
George and Mike (Galusha),
You know my SP Tech Revs decently well....do you think the monoblocks (i.e not bridged/strapped) will be enough juice for these power hungry guys?  I will have one day of Randy's precious 3 days to tell, regardless.
You could passive vertical bi-amp with 4 NCores :wink:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 Apr 2012, 01:48 am
You could passive vertical bi-amp with 4 NCores :wink:

true dat...but it means splitting XLR inputs, etc...yuck.  I'd hope the bridging would be clean...dunno what I'm talking about really.  :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 01:49 am
George and Mike (Galusha),
You know my SP Tech Revs decently well....do you think the monoblocks (i.e not bridged/strapped) will be enough juice for these power hungry guys?  I will have one day of Randy's precious 3 days to tell, regardless.

I think so, but I am basing that answer on how they drove the 5A's. 

At no point were the amps strained or did they run out gas.  Even though the 5A's go down a little below 4 ohms, they aren't going to present the same challenge to the amps that your speakers will.

Can you remind me of the specs on your current amps?

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: orientalexpress on 26 Apr 2012, 02:11 am
George and Mike (Galusha),
You know my SP Tech Revs decently well....do you think the monoblocks (i.e not bridged/strapped) will be enough juice for these power hungry guys?  I will have one day of Randy's precious 3 days to tell, regardless.
I like to know as well since i have the same speakers.


lapsan
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 02:13 am
I like to know as well since i have the same speakers.


lapsan
You will have 3 days to try them!   :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lowtech on 26 Apr 2012, 02:13 am
I preferred half a dozen amps over the D-200's and they weren't close to the level of performance of the Atma-Sphere amps that have been my reference amp for the past few years.

George

Due in part, no doubt, to the non-linear frequency response your AS amps deliver into a non-resistive load.  Toobs are cool but after living with an RM-200 for a couple years in my system the UcD's were a clear upgrade path for me.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: orientalexpress on 26 Apr 2012, 02:22 am
You will have 3 days to try them!   :)
True but after 3 days,The wait is going to be a long one    :cry:

Lapsan
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 02:28 am
True but after 3 days,The wait is going to be a long one    :cry:

Lapsan
Well, then order them now!   :P
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 02:30 am
Due in part, no doubt, to the non-linear frequency response your AS amps deliver into a non-resistive load.  Toobs are cool but after living with an RM-200 for a couple years in my system the UcD's were a clear upgrade path for me.

Let's agree to disagree.

I have had a RM-200 and I would take it over the D-200 any day.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 26 Apr 2012, 02:47 am
Sorry for the long wait. Just wanted to be thorough.

First of all, thanks Jason for allowing  your amps to zip around the US and be heard by the people lucky enough to make the tour cut. I am truly grateful. :thumb:

A little background before I continue. I played drums for 57 years in orchestras, concert bands, rock, country, and jazz groups. I also managed and owned a stereo shop for about 20 years in the late 70s to mid 90s. Not high end, but upper mid-fi. Yamaha, Denon, Luxman, Bryston, Acoustat, B&W, ADS, Energy . . . you get the idea. I spent a lot of time in the shop trying to identify differences between different pieces of gear, cables, rooms, speaker position, etc. Some of the differences were close to none, some immediately apparent. What all this experience did was teach me to listen.

Over the last 8 or 9 years I have owned:

McCormack Smc modded to the max, DNA 1, TLC pre and DAC
VTL ST-85
Maxed out Musical Concepts amp, pre, DAC
Meadowlark Blue Herons
Conrad Johnson modded SA 400
Highly modded Acoustat 2+2s
And a bunch of other stuff that emptied my check book. But it’s been fun!


Concerning the balanced verses single ended cables that link the pre to the amps. I started with single ended with the adaptors that TomS was so kind to send along with the amps. With everything on and no disc spinning, there was no noise until I cranked the W4S pre up to levels that would have overloaded the amp; all I heard was a soft background hum At any volume lower, no noise. I tried the B1 and cranked it to the max. Dead silent. The only difference I could discern was the difference between the qualities of the cables. The balanced cable had not been used in years and does not have the same quality conductors. It was just slightly harsh in the mids and highs, but not enough to be a distraction.

So this brings me to what I own now and the NCores. I spent the better part of today listening to my tube amp, Tripath amp, and the NCores. All were very listenable to my ears. I used the single ended cables for all comparisons.
 

Bass on the tube amp was not as well defined as either of the solid state pieces, but it swung if you know what I mean.  The SS amps swung too and dug a bit deeper. Although deeper may be an illusion of tighter and cleaner. The NCores on stand up bass sounded the most like a stand up bass. And I’ve sat next to many a stand up bass in the various jazz groups I’ve played with. Why did it sound more like a bass to me? I could hear the instrument. There was no muffling, bloating or hyper detailing.

I was amazed at how good the low level resolution was with all the amps. Maggies are not known for their resolving  prowess at low volumes. The NCores were the clear winner. I kept turning it down and down and kept hearing nuance that disappeared with the other amps. I could clearly hear what I believe was distortion in the other amps that covered the music at low levels. In fact I could hear the distortion, in comparison, at any level.

Staging was incredible with the NCores. More air around voices and instruments than I have heard before which resulted in layer upon layer of different sounds each occupying their own space. I didn’t notice that the stage had changed in size. There was just more going on inside it.

Bottom line, the NCores let me hear more of what was on each disc. If the disc was lean, it sounded lean, if round and fat, that’s what I got. They didn’t warm things up or cool them off. I heard each disc as distinctly different from one another. That’s the biggest difference. Whether I’m listening to the tube amp or the Tripath there is a similarity to each disc when compared to the NCores. There is less similarity to each disc with the NCores. It just lets what is there come through. It tamed some of the sibilance because it either didn’t add, or added less, distortion to it. Discs that caused me to cringe slightly at times with the other amps, were remarkably clear with the NCores. I put on a couple of discs I have listened to many, many times over the years. And I knew what I was going to hear. Not! I swear some of them sounded totally different. I sat there with my mouth open listening to music I had never heard before.

The only other time I have heard something similar was when I auditioned a Decware single ended SE34I with a pair of Decware High Definition Towers. That was a while ago so my memory is fuzzy but I remember that system clearly out of many. I’m not suggesting the NCores sounded like the Decware, but the clarity I heard is the clarity I hear with the NCores. The difference is, the NCores have balls and can drive any speaker you want. Imagine something as clear and clean as that with balls that will drive any speaker you attach it to.

Needless to say, I’m sold. I am, however going to wait and see what Bruno has up his sleeve with the Mola-Mola product. I don’t really need the extra power of the NC1200 but am curious to hear reviews. And if Bruno can design a pre and dac that sound, or rather have no sound, like the NC400 then I’m on board.

Obviously, as with any review, YMMV.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: PeteG on 26 Apr 2012, 03:06 am
Come one down Pete, or mebbe I could bring them by one day. :)

Thanks Mike, when we both have some free time I will come down for a listen, ordered 2x NC400/2x SMPS600 will be awhile before they ship (I guess), have to find the rest of the parts (dual mono chassis in black).
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 Apr 2012, 03:15 am
I think so, but I am basing that answer on how they drove the 5A's. 

At no point were the amps strained or did they run out gas.  Even though the 5A's go down a little below 4 ohms, they aren't going to present the same challenge to the amps that your speakers will.

Can you remind me of the specs on your current amps?

George

George, the KWA-150's in bridged mono mode are 450W at 8 ohms and 650W at 4 ohms. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 26 Apr 2012, 03:31 am
Don't tell me your all going to have the same amp's now..... :lol:  :jester:



(Hope to hear this it when it reaches N.Y....)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 26 Apr 2012, 03:50 am
Personally I can't answer the question of how they compare to the SDS amps but I've had more than my fair share of amps in the system in the last few years and IMO none of them compare in terms of clarity and the sheer amount of musical information allowed through.

List of some in no particular order

Consonance 211 and 845 (SET TUBE)
Atma-Sphere M-60 (OTL Tube)
McIntosh MC275 (PP Tube)
Pass Labs XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Luxman M-600 (Class A SS)
Jolida Music Envoy (PP tube, 211 triodes)
Luxman SQ-38 integrated (PP tube)
nuforce ref 18 (class D)
Spectron Musician III mono's (class D)
ModWright KWA 150 mono's (class A/B ss)
Odyssey extreme mono's (class A/B ss)
Threshold SA50 (class A ss)
hot rodded Dynaco ST70 (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M156 mono's (pp tube)
Eastern Electric M88 integrated (pp tube)
R.E. Designs LNPA 150 (class A/B ss)
Audio Mirror 45W SET (tube SET)

A few others that I can't think of off hand. Yes, all in the same room with either my current speakers, GedLee Abbey, or the previous speakers, Meadowlark Blue Heron 2.

With or without the subs, these amps are in a class by themselves compared to any of the above. All of the above have strengths and weaknesses but for my tastes I'm keeping the little NC400's for the foreseeable future. Just my .02.

mike
Mike, that is one incredible list. Both in your chance to hear them and that you feel that the Ncore beats them. I also have gone through a few amps to find what I was looking for.
Theta Digital, Halcro, Bryston, to name a few and now NuForce Ref 18. As you have heard the NuForce I am curious what you thought of it. Likes, dislikes and if you can compare it to the Ncores.
Regards, Al.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a1p1 on 26 Apr 2012, 01:54 pm
I am.

Luckily I have something that is excellent to listen to while I wait for my Ncore order to arrive.

George

This begs the question...are the NCores displacing the the Atma-Sphere monoblocks or being brought in for a long-term comparison?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 26 Apr 2012, 02:17 pm
Something else I tried to verify this morning. I have both single ended and balanced ICs for pre to amp connection. I have an adapter to connect SE cables to NCore balanced in. The W4S has both SE and balance ins and outs. I did all my listening between amps with the SE cables 'cause tube and Tripath amps are configured that way. Well, late yesterday afternoon I pulled the SEs and inserted the balanced cables. Umm, thought the stage sounded deeper, wider, and more layered. Didn't trust myself so listened for a couple hours with the balanced cables in place. This morning I went in and played a tune, then swapped back to SEs. I swear the stage collapsed. Not huge, but it was there. The balanced cables are stranded OFC and the SEs are solid core pcocc. The SEs did sound slightly sweeter and smoother, but the balanced seemed to have deeper, wider stage with more layering and texture. More on that once I have my own amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: saisunil on 26 Apr 2012, 02:24 pm
Don't tell me your all going to have the same amp's now..... :lol:  :jester:



Chris said it ... there is new toy in the town and now everyone wants it and it is now their favorite toy (believe me - I want it too ... though I have not even listened to it ...)

Is it better than everyone else's favorite toy  :duh:  :lol:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 03:02 pm
This begs the question...are the NCores displacing the the Atma-Sphere monoblocks or being brought in for a long-term comparison?

While I am extremely impressed with the Ncore amps, I would like to spend a little more time with them before actually selling the Atma-Sphere amps. 

Luckily, I am in the position to do just that.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 26 Apr 2012, 03:08 pm
... now NuForce Ref 18. As you have heard the NuForce I am curious what you thought of it. Likes, dislikes and if you can compare it to the Ncores.

Hi Al,

I had the nuForce because the owner wanted Bybee music rails added. Before the music rails I did not care for it at all, about 10 minutes of listening was enough for me, too much irritation in the high end. After the music rails were added they were much better and I listened to them for a few days without having a desire to pull them out or run from the room. :) It's been a while but from what I remember, they were not unpleasant but also didn't suck me into the music, which is something the NC400's do better than other amps I've owned.

mike
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 03:16 pm
While I am extremely impressed with the Ncore amps, I would like to spend a little more time with them before actually selling the Atma-Sphere amps. 

Luckily, I am in the position to do just that.

George
What's your buddy with the Lamm going to do?  Will we hear from him?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 Apr 2012, 03:26 pm
And in Mike's list he had the Modwright KWA 150 monos, but he confirmed they were the first production ones, on loan for a month...not the later ones I have lived with now since their inception.  The differences were substantial.  I will surely report back, albeit with one day's ncore experience.

I may think differently once I have these inhouse, but the hyperbole here has gotten a little much, huh?  The greatest amps ever?  I feel like if I respond to the tour feedback with anything but religious zeal I will be flamed by some.   :flame:

(only slightly in jest)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 04:29 pm
I may think differently once I have these inhouse, but the hyperbole here has gotten a little much, huh?  The greatest amps ever?  I feel like if I respond to the tour feedback with anything but religious zeal I will be flamed by some.   :flame:

(only slightly in jest)

As I've asked in my tour thread that I started and the members have agreed with.  I ask for honest feedback.  So if you are one that is invited by an actual tour member and want to comment, then please do so as long as it's honest feedback. 

I started the tour to give something back to AC and thought it was a nice thing to do.  I think it's neat to see all the different systems and ears try it and see the comments.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 26 Apr 2012, 04:39 pm
I may think differently once I have these inhouse, but the hyperbole here has gotten a little much, huh?  The greatest amps ever?  I feel like if I respond to the tour feedback with anything but religious zeal I will be flamed by some.   :flame:

Certainly not by me, I am 100% certain they are not for everyone and I make no claims they are the best ever. They are better than others I've had to the opportunity to play with, for my tastes. :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 Apr 2012, 04:42 pm
Jason, that bit of partial tongue-in-cheek was not aimed at you...but as the person who's generosity this tour is built on, you have every right to ask me to back off.  And yes, I am not official; I am relying on Randy's wonderful act of sharing.  I will sit this out until I hear the amps.  My bad...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 05:10 pm
Jason, that bit of partial tongue-in-cheek was not aimed at you...but as the person who's generosity this tour is built on, you have every right to ask me to back off.  And yes, I am not official; I am relying on Randy's wonderful act of sharing.  I will sit this out until I hear the amps.  My bad...
Nah, it's all good. 

I think Mike said it best.  I wouldn't expect everyone to want a pair but I do think that many will.  This is why a tour can be so beneficial as you know from being the tour coordinator on other products.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: sts9fan on 26 Apr 2012, 05:20 pm
I did notice that George had one disadvantage and Jason shot back immediately defending Ncore.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 05:51 pm


I owned A-S amps so I was speaking about MY experience.  I don't see how that is defending NCores whatsoever.  In fact, this forum is a place where we can discuss what we subjectively hear. 

Again, I don't see how sending my personal pair of amps out is doing anything but helping other members.  If they like what they hear then they can purchase.  If not, it has cost them shipping to the next member.  I've made myself pretty clear from the get-go about this tour.  Try 'em and see what you think. 

Rather then continuely bash me why not see the good that someone is attempting to do?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: earflappin on 26 Apr 2012, 05:56 pm
I've had my NCORE's since late January and posted this review in early Feb (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/threads/10466-New-nCore-400-Amplifier?highlight=ncore).  I have not heard an amplifier that can match the NCORE in terms of accuracy, resolution and musicality.  Some of the amps I've had in my system over the recent past include:

Atma-Sphere M60's (Class A OTL)
Class D SDS-224 (Class D)
Hephaestus (Class D)
Pass Lab XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Boulder 2050 (Class A SS)
Custom hybrid - tube gain stage, SS output stage
Linn Klimax Solo
Halcro dm68

If you can acquire the NCORE via the DIY channel the price/performance is outstanding. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: earflappin on 26 Apr 2012, 06:21 pm
Hi Ted, hope all is well with you.  I heard the Clayton's at jtwrace's house about 2-3 weeks before I got my NCOREs.  His system is almost identical to mine.  I sent Jason my NCOREs where he and Anand had the opportunity to A/B them versus the Clayton.   Jason and Anand both bought the NCORE based on that audition.  I also sent mine to Tom S who subsequently bought them.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 26 Apr 2012, 06:21 pm
I got to listen to 6 bands last Sunday at the International festival at Silver Dollar City. Some bands were outside, some were inside in small and large auditoriums. Every band had a different flavor, as some say here about amps. It would take me 6 different sounding systems to reproduce the sound I heard.

The Italian opera band had a huge sound. That would take something like OTL's.
The Russian Big Band would be more tube like, maybe an older tube amp. 
The Country Hawaiian Band would probably sound more like the Ncores, it was very smooth and detailed.
The Mariachi band was more like a bright sounding Class A amp. That band about took my ears off. But the vocals were huge and luscious sounding.
The Honduras band was very small sounding and soft, maybe a soft Class D amp.
The Irish band was also bright sounding, small vocals, a terrible Class B amp.

Every band I heard was different, and this was all live. So which live band was correct?

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 Apr 2012, 06:31 pm
Not really worth the effort if it is not in my system.
Yes, but isn't Zybar close to you?  He brought them to his friends house...maybe he could've brought them to you too.   :dunno:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 08:03 pm
I did notice that George had one disadvantage and Jason shot back immediately defending Ncore.

Actually, I think that it was more Jason's view on A-S amps rather than defending the Ncore amps.

While he may be right about the A-S exaggerating the sound stage and depth of the recording, we will agree to disagree on whether that is good or bad.  I love the sound of the A-S amps and hearing the Ncore amps hasn't changed that.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 08:05 pm
Yes, but isn't Zybar close to you?  He brought them to his friends house...maybe he could've brought them to you too.   :dunno:

I decided that given my limited time with the amps, that bringing them around wasn't practical.

I also didn't have time to have an "open" listening session.

I will have a listening session for the NEAR gang once my Ncore amps are built and in the system.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 08:09 pm
What's your buddy with the Lamm going to do?  Will we hear from him?

He is buying Ncores.

He is not sure yet if he is going to replace the Lamm amps.  Like me, he will need more time to make that decision.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Apr 2012, 10:26 pm
Chris said it ... there is new toy in the town and now everyone wants it and it is now their favorite toy (believe me - I want it too ... though I have not even listened to it ...)

Is it better than everyone else's favorite toy  :duh:  :lol:

Can't speak for others, but I have had the same reference amp for almost three years - this is definitely not a case of the "shiny penny" syndrome.

George

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: dflee on 27 Apr 2012, 02:12 am
George
Should you decide the AS stay, maybe start another tour with an option to buy. Like so many, I am intrigued with the NCore and have read all the posts so far.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 27 Apr 2012, 03:32 am
...I'm just setting out the question so when other folks get their amps up and running I want to know if they encounter noise issues and what they may need to do.  If they work fine with single ended cabling longer than a few meters then I will be encouraged to try them out.

Certainly a balanced system reduces possibility for noise but I cannot go there and want to see how others fair.  I think it is a potential issue for others to know as well so I'd like to see users tell us their configurations so we can see how this pans out....

Even with identical systems, ambient noise, and listener sensitivity, RFI in one location may be far worse than another.  Does this not prohibit making reliable conclusions based on another person's experience?

Too bad I had to return the AKSA Naksa 100 stereo amp today...no A-B when Ncore arrives later. 

I did not relish returning to the YBA amp for all three channels (Trinaural).  I use two monitors per channel in a strange ambiance array (description and images after I paint the stands).  Two monitors parallel = 2.7 Ohms minimum @ 200 Hz/flat 4 Ohms > 600 Hz. 

I changed to series for 10.8 Ohms/16 Ohms.  Sensitivity dropped as expected, but performance definitely improved.  Not up to Naksa levels, especially in the treble, but better, cleaner, more natural, less strained at all levels.  Interestingly, peak power is about the same, 4 or 16 Ohms.  I suppose current limiting @ 2.7 Ohms and voltage limiting @ 16 Ohms yield similar peak SPL.   

16 Ohms also improves speaker cable performance vs. 4 Ohms.  Expressed as a ratio, cable resistance vs. circuit resistance is 4x lower on 16 Ohm load vs. 4 Ohms. 

Which load better suits Ncore?               
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jonathon Janusz on 27 Apr 2012, 04:07 am
I'm almost afraid to ask a question at this point. . . but I'll give it a shot.

Folks have described the noise floor on these amps as basically being zero.  I don't remember reading through this thread (or the first one), but what do the folks who have auditioned/own these amps use for power conditioning, if anything?  Also, kind of wondering out loud (and no one considering them would probably even think to run them this way, but. . .), how do some of the qualities others have previously mentioned in review pan out with the amps just plugged straight into the wall using decent but far from boutique power cords?

Thanks for your thoughts, and I hope the question is appropriate for this feedback thread.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ServerAdmin on 27 Apr 2012, 06:26 am
Folks, for discussion or questions not related to listening impressions from the NCore tour, please use one of the following threads (or start one):



Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: celo on 27 Apr 2012, 07:28 am
I've had my NCORE's since late January and posted this review in early Feb (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/threads/10466-New-nCore-400-Amplifier?highlight=ncore).  I have not heard an amplifier that can match the NCORE in terms of accuracy, resolution and musicality.  Some of the amps I've had in my system over the recent past include:

Atma-Sphere M60's (Class A OTL)
Class D SDS-224 (Class D)
Hephaestus (Class D)
Pass Lab XA30.5 (Class A SS)
Boulder 2050 (Class A SS)
Custom hybrid - tube gain stage, SS output stage
Linn Klimax Solo
Halcro dm68

If you can acquire the NCORE via the DIY channel the price/performance is outstanding. 

I have not heard the XA 30.5 but I assume it is as good as Aleph 3 if not better. If that is the case, I would love to hear the Hypex NCore! (not currently in the US though)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 27 Apr 2012, 10:56 am
I have not heard the XA 30.5 but I assume it is as good as Aleph 3 if not better. If that is the case, I would love to hear the Hypex NCore! (not currently in the US though)

To my ears the Pass x30.5 is better.

I have had the pleasure of listening to it for an extended amount of time in my current system.  Aleph 3 was years ago.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: earflappin on 27 Apr 2012, 01:58 pm
I got to listen to 6 bands last Sunday at the International festival at Silver Dollar City. Some bands were outside, some were inside in small and large auditoriums. Every band had a different flavor, as some say here about amps. It would take me 6 different sounding systems to reproduce the sound I heard.

The Italian opera band had a huge sound. That would take something like OTL's.
The Russian Big Band would be more tube like, maybe an older tube amp. 
The Country Hawaiian Band would probably sound more like the Ncores, it was very smooth and detailed.
The Mariachi band was more like a bright sounding Class A amp. That band about took my ears off. But the vocals were huge and luscious sounding.
The Honduras band was very small sounding and soft, maybe a soft Class D amp.
The Irish band was also bright sounding, small vocals, a terrible Class B amp.

Every band I heard was different, and this was all live. So which live band was correct?

What does this post have to do with NCORE listening impressions?   :scratch:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 27 Apr 2012, 03:17 pm
This thread is about Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions.

I would personally like to continue hearing from those who have heard the NCores and what they perceived as different or the same sonically in the context of their system or the system in which they were heard. Any questions directed to those experiences with the NCores would be welcomed and encouraged. :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: maxwalrath on 27 Apr 2012, 07:02 pm
If anyone in the Philadelphia area wants to give them a listen, let me know. Allowing 2 days transport between the people on the list, I should have them in about 20 days.

My system: Oppo 81 or Modwright/Sony DVP999 tube modded CDP
Warpspeed Optocoupler and/or Juicy Music Peach preamp
Response Audio/Modwright RAM 301 amp
Reference 3A DeCapo i speakers

Welcome to bring an amp to A/B
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 27 Apr 2012, 09:20 pm
Will these be in Northeast NJ or Manhattan? I'd like to give them a listen...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Apr 2012, 09:22 pm
Will these be in Northeast NJ or Manhattan? I'd like to give them a listen...
See post #2
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rave959 on 1 May 2012, 10:02 am
Hello,

I'd like to thank Jason once again for his generosity in letting me hear his amps.  I'm currently auditioning the amps with the following equipment:

Speakers available:  Gedlee Abbey 12A, ACI Jaguar 2000, ProAc Response 2.5 clones, Besl Series 5 mtm, Gedlee Harper 8
Tested with NCores: Gedlee Abbey 12A

Preamp: Superphon by Stan Warren
Source:  Sony SCD-XA 777ES and OPPO BDP-83

I've never really owned the highest end of amps in the level of Accuphase A50V, Ayre MXR, Lamm monoblocks, Spectral, Shindo and the like, but I've heard them for quite a bit in different setups, most of which were in dealer rooms.  I have spent some time listening to them during after I have sold my Linkwitz Orion - trying to feed this addiction or sickness that we call audio.  As far as owning, I've owned Odyssey Stratos Extremes to power my ACIs and Integra Research RDA-7 to power my Orion.  I also owned a musical fidelity class a integrated in the past, which I still regret selling to this day.  To each his own, I guess.

In any case, since we already know that the Ncores have generated much hype because of some members replacing their very high end amps with these, so I'll try to be as particular as I can.  However, some descriptions of experiences of those who have heard this amp might be repeated here.  

I've always had preference or bias towards heavier amps (and with tubes) because of the rule of thumb of old that they had to have quality.  Heavy meant quality parts and therefore, good sound.  Now that I have heard the Ncores in my own room, equipment, and speakers, this no longer applies.  The Ncores have an ability to be dynamic, even at listening to low volumes.  This is what I noticed right away with my Gedlee Abbeys.  The second characteristic that I heard was that this design is extremely quiet.  I believe this explains why it can be dynamic at low volumes as I mentioned above.  Moreover, it is able to retrieve nuances in the recording that wouldn't be otherwise obvious.  The way this amp renders music provides a window - in which one can hear separation of instruments while keeping the ever sensitive midrange without grain.  It sounds very, very slightly deeper into the soundstage, which some may or may not prefer.  

The bass portrayed by the Ncores is tout and focused, where there's texture to the notes played.  Most importantly, these amps made me understand that dynamism, midrange and treble detail are not the only sound characteristics that are essential to re-recreating a live event, but also dynamic contrasts.  Dynamic contrasts in a sense that it can sound live without emphasis on the higher end of the frequency, but also sound uncompressed.  The music can go from something simple to intricate without falling apart.  My Abbey 12As sound more alive and transparent, but not any brighter - if that makes sense.

My speakers are about 4 ohms, so I'm not sure if the amps can hold its same signature sound with speakers that dip down to 2 ohms and at high volumes.  

I tried to nit-pick whatever I could with the amp, but with my short time with them, it was tough, especially that they're impressive straight out of the box.  And no, I do not believe in breaking in amps or cables.  I have thick cables from acoustic research that has silver braids(blah, blah, blah) connected to my receiver, and I did not use those.  I used the generic kind lying around the house and I was happy with the sound.  I'd be interested more if someone could measure its response under load.

So, is it the best amp I've heard?  I'm not sure.  Is there something better out there? Probably.  For the money is it a bargain?  I believe so.  I wouldn't mind a pair of these sitting on my audio rack in the living room.

Finally, I understand that all us have some sort of preference, so please take all of this with a grain of salt.  I can only provide information on what I've heard in my own setup, and still believe that there's no replacing in hearing these for yourselves.  With that said, it might just be worth going out of your way to hear them.  Just ensure that you have accurate speakers behind them to hear what it really has to offer.  Thanks for your time!


Best,
Christian


Tracks sampled/CDs played:
Audiophile Voices CDs 1-8
MYMP - versions
The best of David Benoit
Jim Brickman - Picture This
The Shins
Blue Champagne (Jazz CD)
The Dali CD volume 2 - In admiration of music
The Best of HouseMartins
Michael Jackson's remastered CDs - Off the wall, Thriller
Andy McKee - Art in Motion
The The - Soul Mining
The Postal Service

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 3 May 2012, 03:50 am
Arrived today, well packed and promptly shipped from Christian.  I had to run back to the office and didn't get out until 9pm, by the time I got home, fed the cat, found where I had put my extra power cords, listened to my amp for a bit to seal auditory memory, and hooked up Jason's Ncores, it was about 10pm.  So I got about an hour on them so far at reduced volume evening listening. 

All just first impressions, I'll do a real review after I ship them out.  Detailed, smooth, excellent soundstage.  Ever so slightly reticent in the treble, just to the degree I like.  You can hear everything because of the extraordinary detail, but nothing is grating on the ears.  All the attributes of my favorite chip amp, without any of the harshness.  But the most striking characteristic is the amp's ability to sort out complex musical passages, separate images from one another, and not lose the musical whole.  This is something I only hear from the finest components.  We see if it all holds up a higher volumes.     
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 3 May 2012, 06:44 pm
Arrived today, well packed and promptly shipped from Christian.  I had to run back to the office and didn't get out until 9pm, by the time I got home, fed the cat, found where I had put my extra power cords, listened to my amp for a bit to seal auditory memory, and hooked up Jason's Ncores, it was about 10pm.  So I got about an hour on them so far at reduced volume evening listening. 

All just first impressions, I'll do a real review after I ship them out.  Detailed, smooth, excellent soundstage.  Ever so slightly reticent in the treble, just to the degree I like.  You can hear everything because of the extraordinary detail, but nothing is grating on the ears.  All the attributes of my favorite chip amp, without any of the harshness.  But the most striking characteristic is the amp's ability to sort out complex musical passages, separate images from one another, and not lose the musical whole.  This is something I only hear from the finest components.  We see if it all holds up a higher volumes.     


Very promising.
Can you tell us what speakers(and sensitivity) and preamp You are using.
Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: David C on 4 May 2012, 01:31 pm
anyone know who the artist is for the song Dark Angel on Zybars post # 56 ?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 4 May 2012, 01:45 pm
anyone know who the artist is for the song Dark Angel on Zybars post # 56 ?

Blue Rodeo - Five Days In July
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: David C on 4 May 2012, 03:11 pm
thanks Ted
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: PeteG on 4 May 2012, 03:39 pm
  But the most striking characteristic is the amp's ability to sort out complex musical passages, separate images from one another, and not lose the musical whole.     


I agree with this after listening to mgalusha system, very transparent too. I thought afterwards its one of the most naked sounding amp’s I’ve heard, depending on one’s system that could be bad, good or great.
It will be interesting once mine are built to see how well it drives a difficult load.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 4 May 2012, 04:15 pm
Very promising.
Can you tell us what speakers(and sensitivity) and preamp You are using.
Jerry


I agree with this after listening to mgalusha system, very transparent too. I thought afterwards its one of the most naked sounding amp’s I’ve heard, depending on one’s system that could be bad, good or great.
It will be interesting once mine are built to see how well it drives a difficult load.

I'll give a whole rundown when I finalize a review, but presently running into to slightly modified Maggie MMG's which present a low, but benign, 4 ohm load.  I hope to try a few more of my speakers before they go away.  I have preamps that use both passive and active circuits, so I can also try both there.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Tyson on 4 May 2012, 04:59 pm
I got a chance to go over to Mike's last night and give the nCore's a good listen.  Before we get to the impressions, I'll say up front I am biased in favor of the nCore's, as I really want to get rid of my tube amps since I have a 5 year old daughter and I'm always a bit worried she'll get into them (even though I put them inside a cabinet behind a closed door). 

To be thorough, I brought over my tube amp to hook up into Mike's system so we could do direct comparisons on a level playing field.  My tube amp is a hotrodded Dynaco ST70 using modern VTA boards and input circuits, an upgraded oversized power supply from Triode Electronics, and premium parts throughout. 

We listened to Bjork, Mahler, and Shostakovich in the comparison.  All in Hirez.

So, how did they sound?  Well, first up, I am happy to report they do NOT sound like the typical sterile and shrill class D amps I've heard up till this point.  I was particularly concerned the highs.  Bjork in particular can drive you out of the room if the highs are poor.  Same with the flutes and piccolos in the Shostakovich.  But luckily they did not sound harsh or strident at all.  Very smooth.  Nice.

Soundstage was awesome.  Some amps give you good SS width, others give you good depth.  Few give you both.  But the nCore gave perfect soundstage, front to back and side to side.  I believe it's because they have such incredible transparency, there's just a perfect view into the recording venue.  You hear everything.  But not in a clinical or dry way.  Mike said the nCore's are warmer in the mids than his Atmasphere's were, and I believe him!  (But then again, I've always hated the sound of OTL amps).   

Another noteworthy area is dynamics.  With the nCore's, you have basically unlimited dynamics, no compression at all, and complete and utter ease when in the middle of large dynamic peaks.  The other cool thing is the soundstage does NOT collapse when played  back full bore and using very complex music (ie, the Mahler and Shostakovich).  For fun, at the very end of our session, we also threw on some Kodo, also in hirez.  Uhm, holy crap!  That was awesome, it really brought out all the strengths in the nCore's.

So, how did my tube amps fare?  Worse in every category I can think of except one.  The one area the tubes did better was tonal density.  There were simply more tonal variety and saturation for different instruments.  Not so much in the highs, which sounded pretty much the same on both amps, but in the mids.  Easier to hear the difference between violins, violas, cellos, and double basses. 

Unfortunately, tonality is the single most important factor for me when listening to a system, so the tube amps are staying.  They actually did pretty well in the dynamics, transparency, soundstaging areas, but were definitely not at the level of the nCores. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 4 May 2012, 05:31 pm
I got a chance to go over to Mike's last night and give the nCore's a good listen.  Before we get to the impressions, I'll say up front I am biased in favor of the nCore's, as I really want to get rid of my tube amps since I have a 5 year old daughter and I'm always a bit worried she'll get into them (even though I put them inside a cabinet behind a closed door). 

To be thorough, I brought over my tube amp to hook up into Mike's system so we could do direct comparisons on a level playing field.  My tube amp is a hotrodded Dynaco ST70 using modern VTA boards and input circuits, an upgraded oversized power supply from Triode Electronics, and premium parts throughout. 

We listened to Bjork, Mahler, and Shostakovich in the comparison.  All in Hirez.

So, how did they sound?  Well, first up, I am happy to report they do NOT sound like the typical sterile and shrill class D amps I've heard up till this point.  I was particularly concerned the highs.  Bjork in particular can drive you out of the room if the highs are poor.  Same with the flutes and piccolos in the Shostakovich.  But luckily they did not sound harsh or strident at all.  Very smooth.  Nice.

Soundstage was awesome.  Some amps give you good SS width, others give you good depth.  Few give you both.  But the nCore gave perfect soundstage, front to back and side to side.  I believe it's because they have such incredible transparency, there's just a perfect view into the recording venue.  You hear everything.  But not in a clinical or dry way.  Mike said the nCore's are warmer in the mids than his Atmasphere's were, and I believe him!  (But then again, I've always hated the sound of OTL amps).   

Another noteworthy area is dynamics.  With the nCore's, you have basically unlimited dynamics, no compression at all, and complete and utter ease when in the middle of large dynamic peaks.  The other cool thing is the soundstage does NOT collapse when played  back full bore and using very complex music (ie, the Mahler and Shostakovich).  For fun, at the very end of our session, we also threw on some Kodo, also in hirez.  Uhm, holy crap!  That was awesome, it really brought out all the strengths in the nCore's.

So, how did my tube amps fare?  Worse in every category I can think of except one.  The one area the tubes did better was tonal density.  There were simply more tonal variety and saturation for different instruments.  Not so much in the highs, which sounded pretty much the same on both amps, but in the mids.  Easier to hear the difference between violins, violas, cellos, and double basses. 

Unfortunately, tonality is the single most important factor for me when listening to a system, so the tube amps are staying.  They actually did pretty well in the dynamics, transparency, soundstaging areas, but were definitely not at the level of the nCores.

Very fine review,

What source did you use (through the tubesamp)
And what speakers.
Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 4 May 2012, 05:49 pm
What source did you use (through the tubesamp)
And what speakers.
Jerry

See here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1075943#msg1075943

mike
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 4 May 2012, 09:02 pm
See here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1075943#msg1075943

mike
Thanks Mike, i read it but did't make the connection.
Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 7 May 2012, 05:25 am
The Ncore have left my home and headed back up to NYC for the next stop.  I'll add my thanks to all of the others herein to Jason for his kindness and generosity in sending out these amps on tour.  I enjoyed my time with them immensely and it was fun having Al, Kevin and Barry stop over on Saturday to give a listen.

I'll give a brief rundown of my system for reference.  Oppo 971 transport into a JEC 7510 DAC with upgraded power supply, B&K CS 115 Preamp, which runs either passive or active, Pure AV power conditioner, used both in and out of circuit with the Ncores, VPI HW19Jr MkIII upgrades, classic NOS Empire cartridge, NAD 3020B as phono pre.  Speakers used were slightly modded Maggie MMG's and PSB Alpha T, Yamaha twin 7" paper cone subwoofer.  Cabling is a mix of Magnan, Zu, and Tuan's homemade cables, Zu Wylde were used with the Ncores.  Comparison for the Ncores was a B&K ST202 amp, Barry had brought a Bell Canto that we didn't have time to hookup.  The room is 10'x13.5' heavily treated with bass traps and wall mounted absorption.  All of the components, except the Ncores, sit on Maple cubes.

I wish I had some startling new revelation to add to the previous reviews, but I'm afraid everyone has nailed the character of these amps already, and they weren't wrong.  They come out and go back in the box with the same basic sound, no breaking in or warm up time that I noticed.  Al had suggested Friday that I disconnect the amps from my power conditioner, even though it has a a dedicated high power outlet, and hook them directly up to the wall outlet.  I noticed only a very slight difference, maybe opening up a bit, or not.  Note that after the amps left I tried this with the B&K and noticed a marked difference, much more open and fast, closer to the Ncores than it had been previously.  So despite the rather lightweight power supply, they appeared immune to variations in power source.

In comparison to the classic AB push pull B&K, the Ncores were immediately faster, cleaner, with a wonderful ability to delineate complex musical passages into their individual parts while still delivering a musically whole presentation.  You could hear more into each instrument even with a  reduction in apparent absolute treble levels.  They sounded ever so slightly rolled off in the treble, yet had more high frequency detail, if that makes sense.  Dynamics were completely unrestrained at loud levels, they never once pooped out no matter how loud we took them.  Yet something I didn't get 'round to showing the other guys, they maintain this dynamic contrast even at low volumes.  Bass, midrange, treble, soundstaging, imaging, tone, detail, etc. were boringly even and uneventfully excellent.  They didn't do anything wrong across the board, there wasn't lightweight bass, harsh treble, flat imaging, haziness, nothing you could pick out to criticize.  These are attributes I only hear in much more expensive amps, and certainly not in my B&K's.       

One minor problem cropped up only when the other guys were here, the left channel Maggie went into a weird oscillation that sounded like a blown tweeter, but wasn't.  The first trouble shooting was to switch out to the PSB's which fixed the problem and gave us a chance to hear woofer in boxes speakers, so we never went back.  I have no idea what it was, it didn't crop up before or after.

I ran them with both passive and active circuits from the pre amp.  I felt the active stage gave greater dynamics at almost no cost in noise or graininess.  The passive stage was a little sweeter and cleaner, but I felt the trade-off went to the active side, which is the opposite of what I hear with my B&K.  The other guys were firmly convinced I was wrong, and the passive stage was way better with only a slight loss in dynamics.  A classic case of YMMV.           

Here's a pic of the little rascals, sitting on some short speaker stands I dug out of the attic.  Note they are without the custom front faceplates that Jason removed. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Letitroll98/NcoreAmps.jpg)

I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 7 May 2012, 06:38 pm
The Ncore have left my home and headed back up to NYC for the next stop.  I'll add my thanks to all of the others herein to Jason for his kindness and generosity in sending out these amps on tour.  I enjoyed my time with them immensely and it was fun having Al, Kevin and Barry stop over on Saturday to give a listen.

I'll give a brief rundown of my system for reference.  Oppo 971 transport into a JEC 7510 DAC with upgraded power supply, B&K CS 115 Preamp, which runs either passive or active, Pure AV power conditioner, used both in and out of circuit with the Ncores, VPI HW19Jr MkIII upgrades, classic NOS Empire cartridge, NAD 3020B as phono pre.  Speakers used were slightly modded Maggie MMG's and PSB Alpha T, Yamaha twin 7" paper cone subwoofer.  Cabling is a mix of Magnan, Zu, and Tuan's homemade cables, Zu Wylde were used with the Ncores.  Comparison for the Ncores was a B&K ST202 amp, Barry had brought a Bell Canto that we didn't have time to hookup.  The room is 10'x13.5' heavily treated with bass traps and wall mounted absorption.  All of the components, except the Ncores, sit on Maple cubes.

I wish I had some startling new revelation to add to the previous reviews, but I'm afraid everyone has nailed the character of these amps already, and they weren't wrong.  They come out and go back in the box with the same basic sound, no breaking in or warm up time that I noticed.  Al had suggested Friday that I disconnect the amps from my power conditioner, even though it has a a dedicated high power outlet, and hook them directly up to the wall outlet.  I noticed only a very slight difference, maybe opening up a bit, or not.  Note that after the amps left I tried this with the B&K and noticed a marked difference, much more open and fast, closer to the Ncores than it had been previously.  So despite the rather lightweight power supply, they appeared immune to variations in power source.

In comparison to the classic AB push pull B&K, the Ncores were immediately faster, cleaner, with a wonderful ability to delineate complex musical passages into their individual parts while still delivering a musically whole presentation.  You could hear more into each instrument even with a  reduction in apparent absolute treble levels.  They sounded ever so slightly rolled off in the treble, yet had more high frequency detail, if that makes sense.  Dynamics were completely unrestrained at loud levels, they never once pooped out no matter how loud we took them.  Yet something I didn't get 'round to showing the other guys, they maintain this dynamic contrast even at low volumes.  Bass, midrange, treble, soundstaging, imaging, tone, detail, etc. were boringly even and uneventfully excellent.  They didn't do anything wrong across the board, there wasn't lightweight bass, harsh treble, flat imaging, haziness, nothing you could pick out to criticize.  These are attributes I only hear in much more expensive amps, and certainly not in my B&K's.       

One minor problem cropped up only when the other guys were here, the left channel Maggie went into a weird oscillation that sounded like a blown tweeter, but wasn't.  The first trouble shooting was to switch out to the PSB's which fixed the problem and gave us a chance to hear woofer in boxes speakers, so we never went back.  I have no idea what it was, it didn't crop up before or after.

I ran them with both passive and active circuits from the pre amp.  I felt the active stage gave greater dynamics at almost no cost in noise or graininess.  The passive stage was a little sweeter and cleaner, but I felt the trade-off went to the active side, which is the opposite of what I hear with my B&K.  The other guys were firmly convinced I was wrong, and the passive stage was way better with only a slight loss in dynamics.  A classic case of YMMV.           

Here's a pic of the little rascals, sitting on some short speaker stands I dug out of the attic.  Note they are without the custom front faceplates that Jason removed. 

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Letitroll98/NcoreAmps.jpg)

I can't wait for the $200 Chinese clones that will surely be out in a couple of months.


Excellent post, and good to hear the differences from others
BTW what chinese clones do you mean(ncore produced in the far east)?

Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 7 May 2012, 06:46 pm
Thanks for the appreciation Jerry.  Do you think there won't be Chinese clones?   :roll:  Seriously, I have no idea which company or companies will clone them, but they most surely will do so.

And so I won't get flagged for off topic (sorry Jason), here's a short list of some of the music listened to:
Paul Simon, Graceland
Lyle Lovett, Joshua Judges Ruth
Her Infinite Variety, Celtic Women in Music and Song
Sara Gazarek, Return to You
Holst, The Planets, LSO w/ Geoffrey Simon
Liz Story, Solid Colors
Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays, As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita Falls
Sara K, Closer Than They Appear
Shadowfax, Too Far to Whisper

There were others, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 7 May 2012, 06:53 pm
Please keep this thread for Listening Impressions only.

That can be moved to here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106188.0
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 7 May 2012, 07:33 pm
...

And so I won't get flagged for off topic (sorry Jason), here's a short list of some of the music listened to:
Paul Simon, Graceland
Lyle Lovett, Joshua Judges Ruth
Her Infinite Variety, Celtic Women in Music and Song
Sara Gazarek, Return to You
Holst, The Planets, LSO w/ Geoffrey Simon
Liz Story, Solid Colors
Pat Metheny and Lyle Mays, As Falls Wichita So Falls Wichita Falls
Sara K, Closer Than They Appear
Shadowfax, Too Far to Whisper

There were others, but you get the idea.
Wow, a lot of my favs on that list, being a Metheny/Mays and Shadowfax junkie myself. You've prompted me to cue a few of those up for the NCores this week  :wink:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 7 May 2012, 09:54 pm
Well, I was lucky that I was able to squeeze myself into a night with the N-Cores by playing courier.

I heard them at Dan's (Letitroll98) home in South Jersey on Saturday afternoon, and liked what I'd heard of them there. That evening, I had Al (hifial), his buddy Kevin (both of whom had traveled south to Dan's for a listen), and NYRaver Gary (he happened to call out of the blue asking about some DIY speaker cables), over to my place for a listen. We listened to some various tracks from; Fiona Apple "Tidal", Norah Jones "Come Away With Me", Johnny Cash "American 4: The Man Comes Around", some music that Al had brought, and a classical disc that Gary had brought. Initially the N-Cores were plugged into my Belkin PF60 power conditioner, and Though Al preferred the N-Cores by a smidgen, I was not swayed. I felt there was more bloom, space, and air, with my Alchemy amp in the system, Gary agreed with me, said he'd heard enough, and he decided it was time for him to go. After Gary left, Al suggested we not use the Belkin power conditioner with the N-Cores, as Bruno (the designer) really recommends against using a conditioner. This is difficult for me as I only have one outlet available for my system, so I grabbed a short, but fairly heavy gauge, extension cord and plugged the N-Cores into it. Lo-And-Behold they opened up nicely. My impression is that they are the epitome of neutral, not sterile, but neutral, I feel my Alchemy still offers more Bloom but that Bloom is very likely an artifact of that amplifier.

Sunday morning was hectic for me, but after my son's soccer game I packed the amps up and headed into Brooklyn to deliver them to Paul (Occam). Al and his friend Kevin were also in headed over there, so I car-pooled with them. I went into Paul's to deliver the amps while Al and Kevin parked the car, so I had a chance to listen to Paul's system with his AKSA amp in place, to help give me a base line there. We tried the N-Cores with and with out power conditioning at Paul's as well, and again they preformed better right into the wall. Paul is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to power conditioning, I don't claim to fully understand the explination he gave that afternoon, but he said he was not totally surprised by this as he believes that there is enough conditioning and isolation built into the SMPS600, so that more conditioning hurts rather than helps. My thoughts after listening at Paul's reinforced what I'd concluded at my home. So again, the AKSA was not blown out of the water by the N-Core, but the N-Core seemed to have a more neutral presentation.

I don't feel the need to dump my Alchemy, but these would be top contenders for me, if/when the time comes, that I need a replacement amplifier, especially considering the price performance. As I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on my audio hobby, and for what I've seen/heard, these are a very very good value that I could be happy with.

Regarding the Power Supply: At my home I have tried several different amps of a Class-D switching amp topology, and ALL of them, from several of the Class-D Audio kits, to the Ghent ICE Modules, to the DAC Cherry amplifiers, to the Bel Canto e.One S125 I recently won in a raffle, produce an audible 60Hz hum at the listening position. With my Alchemy, the transformers hum, and there is a slight hum through the speakers as well, but is isn't audible from the listening position. The N-Cores were DEAD QUIET. Not a thing was heard from my speakers when the CD was not playing. This is a first for me in my home, and is another reason the N-Core is very high on my list when I decide I have some money to put into my system.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 7 May 2012, 10:18 pm
Wow, a lot of my favs on that list, being a Metheny/Mays and Shadowfax junkie myself. You've prompted me to cue a few of those up for the NCores this week  :wink:

And there were many more not mentioned, I have a top shelf for CDs and a top bin for LP's that are in no order whatsoever, just were I put my favorite selections.  Certain ones stay perennially, some go back to category and alphabetical order shelves as they are replaced by others.  When evaluating new changes to the system invariably I grab stuff from there, those were the Saturday morning selections.  In the afternoon the guys brought their own CD's, none brought LPs so the table stayed unplugged, which can be noticed in the pic.

It didn't matter to the Ncores what you played, they sometimes brutally, sometimes lovingly, revealed what was on the black or clear disc.  A Mary Black CD from the late 80's revealed how bad some of the first CD's were processed, despite the music itself being absolutely lovely.  Joanna Newsom's LP "Ys" was presented in all of it's sonic glory, both musically and technically.  My system has a tendency to make everything a little bit better than it may actually be, the Ncores could show how much better or worse a recording was, uneditorialized.

Well, I was lucky that I was able to squeeze myself into a night with the N-Cores by playing courier.

I heard them at Dan's (Letitroll98) home in South Jersey on Saturday afternoon, and liked what I'd heard of them there. That evening, I had Al (hifial), his buddy Kevin (both of whom had traveled south to Dan's for a listen), and NYRaver Gary (he happened to call out of the blue asking about some DIY speaker cables), over to my place for a listen................. 

Ha!  It figures the boyz from Joysey would hijack the tour and make off with the amps for themselves.   :lol:

BTW, an Audio Alchemy OM150 just sold on eBay for less than a B&K of similar power.  Maybe Audio Alchemy is the bargain here?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 10 May 2012, 04:06 am
I picked up the amps tonight...in comparison to Paul's ASKA, I thought it sounded a little tighter in the bass, and slightly warmer in the mids. It definitely was not a night and day difference...Good seeing you Wolfy, been a 'long' time.  :thumb:
Tonight I will test out the low volume results, since its pretty late already.

My speakers(VMPS RM1) are bi-amped, with tubes on the mid/hi and a Crown XTi 1002 on the bass <250Hz>...since the Crown has balance inputs I will swap in the Ncores there first...already using RCA to XLR cables.
I will also try them full range on a backup VMPS RM626 at some point.

Since my apt is tiny and I cannot really have more than one person over at a time, I may be willing to travel with the amps to someone with a bigger space to demo the Ncores with a larger audience. This is time permitting and transportation availability of course. And I will have to clear that with Jason.

Now onto listening to the Ncores...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 10 May 2012, 04:15 am
I picked up the amps tonight...in comparison to Paul's ASKA, I thought it sounded a little tighter in the bass, and slightly warmer in the mids. It definitely was not a night and day difference...

AKSA Naksa 100?  Very sorry I had to ship my borrowed Naksa 100 last week, immediately after which I received notice Ncores shipped.  For reader's info, Naksa 100 treble is among the best I've heard.     
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 10 May 2012, 04:20 am
LIFEFORCE 100... (http://www.aksaonline.com/products/products_LF100.html)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 10 May 2012, 04:42 am
Thanks wolf! 

Lifeforce 100 arrived prior to Naksa 100, yes?  No dates at AKSA website, and no Lifeforce price. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 10 May 2012, 04:43 am
Yes...

Watch for Occam's (Paul's) review....I'm sure he'll mention his build of the AKSA amp and if he's add anything extra.

It was an interesting day of listening... 8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 10 May 2012, 12:05 pm
Yes...

Watch for Occam's (Paul's) review....I'm sure he'll mention his build of the AKSA amp and if he's add anything extra.

It was an interesting day of listening... 8)

Looking forward to Paul's thoughts after his few days, and wondering if he feels differently than he did after the first couple of hours...

Looking forward to Martin's thoughts too.

What did you think of them Chris?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 10 May 2012, 06:33 pm
Looking forward to Paul's thoughts after his few days
That's an understatement.   :hyper:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 10 May 2012, 08:08 pm
Mod just delete this if its wrong for this thread.

Some Ncore owner/endorser previously owned a huge list of incredible power amps.  One was Linn's Klimax Solo, which shares identical Chakra topology with my now sold Linn Majik 3100 (3x 100W @ 4 Ohms).  Chakra is unique and ingenious, best described as Quad's "current dumping" circuit but Linn employs pure analog chip where Quad has discreet circuitry (chips are generally more linear, with tighter tolerances than discreet circuits).  Chips pass very little current so Linn boost current with bipolar transistors at the output. 

The Majik was one of the best amps I'd heard.  It seemed to have all the best qualities of Atma-Sphere OTL but was more linear, had a deeper stage, lacked the tubes' slight noise and haze, and of course passes multiples more current.  I needed more juice and only cost prevented me from getting the 200W @ 4 Ohm "Akurate 3200" (3-ch about $5500). 

Ncore makes about double Akurate power.  If Ncore beats Akurate quality that is just flat out amazing. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 10 May 2012, 10:35 pm
Barry, Al and Kevin arrived late Sunday afternoon. We listened briefly to the system, as set up which consisted of -

Source - E.A.R. Acute III CD player DAC with tubed, transformer output stage, for both single ended and balanced connections. As the EAR has its own remote motorized volume pot, my CAT preamp sat this out.It uses 2 Siemans PCC88 tubes with Herbies BlackBery Hal-o tube dampers and sits on a Sanus rack with 3 Stillpoints Aluminum OEM Feet between.

Amp - AKSA 100wpc Lifeforce power amp, bog standard, save for the addition of  Vishay MKP1837 .022uf Polypropolene caps [available from Mouser,Newark,Digikey,RS,Farnell...] bypassing very pedestrian Vishay MKT Polyester input capacitors. It sits on 3 Walker brass points on a mdf shelf, sitting on 3 original Stillpoints with 'top hats' sitting on another shelf on the Sanus stand.

Speakers - Marten Miles II,  2 1/2 way floorstanders. . All Accuton, carborundum cone drivers. IMO, far better than the subsequent, 2 way, less expensive to build, Miles III. Sitting on Aluminum cones sitting in the way cool Herbies cone/spike Decoupling Gliders. The Martens offer a wonderful, accurate, low distortion sound, with excellent sound staging and imaging, unless you muck them up..... which I did. When not 'mucked' up, they can be analytical or warm, depending upon what they are fed.

All cables  cords are my GS MkII
Power provided by a single line 20 amp dual duplex outlet line 8' from the breaker box, feeding my Alchemist power conditioner, with the EAR CD player fed from a dedicated low current Alchemist filter, and the power amp fed from the Alchemist's amp filter.

A breif comparison confirmed that the Ncores, unlike the Aksa Lifeforce were better served by plugging them directly into the power outlets, rather than fed via my conditioner's dedicated power amplifier series inductor, shunt capacitance filter.

Based on Sunday's listening session, I would agree with Barry's less than enthusiastic evaluation of either amp. It was a good system, but not great. For lack of a better word, in my son's vernacular - 'meh'
So I spent Monday futzing around with the system, making some observations -

1. The Ncore doesn't need external power conditioning as its got, circuit wise, a dedicated Audience aR1p hardwired in each of the power supplies. But looking at the green ferrite common mode choke, its obvious Hypex has implemented far more inductance, both common mode and leakage/differential, than anyone would rationally implement on a general purpose amplifier filter. But as this filter [no doubt primarily for minimizing conducted emi as well as conditioning] deals with known specific current draw characteristics it, IMO, does one heck of a job. Perhaps a lighter hand external conditioner, with less inductance and capacitance my be beneficial, but my standard amp filter was IMO, too much. I don't know if power conditioning regimes that rely upon the capture, training and ultimate subjugation of Maxwell's Daemons [Bybee geegaws] would or not provide benefits.

2. The Ncores still react positively to quality power cords and outlets. For example, the lack of subjective bass extension and solidity I noted on Sunday was largely addressed by plugging the Ncores into a custom produced JenaLabs cryoed Hubblell HBL5362 rather than the previous standard HBL5362.

3. I've really screwed up my Marten Miles II speakers..... :duh:
One of the speakers cabinets was significantly damaged in shipment. But some wood putty sealed the resulting cracks and they sounded glorious, but looked quite disheveled. So at some cost to me, I got brand new cabinets, complete with new crossovers. Not one, but two cabinets as they had none of the original mk II versions like mine, so they provided 2 of the last mkII cabinets. So the new cabinets have a newer version of Jorma internal wire, new crossovers, and upon swapping .... 
The sadistically buried crossovers couldn't be swapped with any expectation of positive results. Changing the Herbies Tube damper from the Supersonic-SS to the BlackBery Hal-O didn't help (enough). Optimization is always a dance between maximizing your potential upside, and minimizing ones potential downside. Sadly, I sometimes transpose the priority/weighting of those metrics.

I threw in the towel. On Tuesday Martin generously came over and we endeavored to swap the delicate, easily destroyed Accuton drivers, yet again. And when we powered up the Ncores, feeding new, old Martens we got excellent sound, with the soundstaging and imaging I'd so dearly missed.

Wednesday I spent the morning tweeking the system.  I put the Herbies Supersonic-SS tube dampers back in, replacing the more mellow BlackBery dampers. The subjective resolution and detail was there, without any perceived grit. Chris came over in the afternoon, and he listened to his eclectic smorgasbord of music.

When Martin came over to pick up the amps, we decided to make as even a comparison possible with the only change between the amps is that the Ncores used the supplied with the tour male XLR to female RCA adapters, fed by the same prototype single ended cables. The Ncores were plugged into my conditioner's pass-thru duplex with no series inductance. The Lifeforce amp was plugged into the conditioner's dedicated Power amplifier filter. I'd not heard the Aksa Lifeforce for 3 days.

So Martin, Chris and I compared the 2 systems where the only difference was that the Aksa Lifeforce was plugged into a power filter, and the Ncores were not.

My conclusion was that I couldn't tell the difference except -
1. The Ncore's bass was tighter. Not surprising given the power differences.
2. The Ncore is quieter

Other than that, nuth'n. That being said, I believe the Ncore could well be the best amp I've ever heard, and certainly the best I've ever heard in my system. I've heard some very fine amps in my system, and heretofore, I've never even heard a class-d amp I could live with, let alone consider buying. It is simply the cleanest slate I've heard (or not) in an amplifier. But I'll also admit that I consider the original VAC Rennaisance  30/30 if not one of the greatest, one of the most enjoyable amps ever.

Is the Ncore 400 truly a game changer? Yes, for those of us with the minimal skills necessary to plug the stuff together, put the right holes in a proper chassis, we get a wonderful amp the equal, or better than those we either can't or won't afford to purchase. And thank heaven for the charitable folks like Mike Galusha and Jtwrace, etc...who'll spend their time walking the less experienced and clever though this sometimes not so trivial task, in pm, on the phone and on these boards. If you impute a reasonable hourly rate to these charitable folks, I think its not such a bargain.
But in 2007 Hugh Dean was selling 2 assembled Lifeforce amplifier modules for $1,300. Admittedly, the chassis and power supply was more expensive, but I believe you could have built a Lifeforce 100 monoblocks (in a single chassis) for not all that much more than the present cost of assembling the same for Ncore 400s. And you would have had the enjoyment of using the amps for the last 5 years!

So, I've ordered 2 pair of Ncore400 amps and ps supplies. Why?

1. I have to have both balanced and single ended inputs on my amp to evaluate both kinds of interconnects. The only feasible way to do this on the Lifeforce would be to transformer input couple the amps. While I own a very fine pair of Jensen input transformers, they have their own sonic signature, and I don't want the sonic overlay of an additional set of signal transformers in the evaluation process.
2. To a lesser degree, more power and less noise. Presently, the Martens are not that demanding a load. In the future I may have a speaker needing more power and drive capability. I could even add 2 more Ncore400 amp modules and run balanced bridged.
3. My bit for the ecosystem. Kumbaya!

FWIW,
Paul


The Listening Menu -

Chris's own compilation from his many years of NY Rave. I know all the cuts and none of their names.
Martin's own compilation disc, same goes, I know all the music but none of the names except Grace Jones. Sorta like dub meets jazz meets regge meets techno.
My own evaluations must include Balkan Beat Box's 'Nu Med' album, specifically track 4- BBBeat, the glory and terror of a Turkish Jannisairy Military Marching Drum, Cymbal, bell and Oud band bearing down on you shouldn't be missed. IMO, the hardest thing to get right in a recording is the sound of multiple small bells and tambourines.
Track 10 - Delancy  A wonderful live recording, I've heard it live. Its got drive, dynamics, da funk....
I hear many live bands a year, mostly Eastern European and Middle Eastern, a plurality in a single weekend in Brooklyn every year. One of the strangest confluence of folk dancers and hipsters, ever.
Throw in Peggy Lee's 'Fever' and Ricky Lee Jones at her most coked up for beauty and pain.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 10 May 2012, 11:10 pm
Paul,

Wow, what a powerful, moving review. Not because you liked the Ncores...that in fact, for me, is beside the point. It is because of how thorough and honest you were, including the devilish details of the system. Kudos.

Interestingly enough, I have installed Jena Labs' Duplex outlets in my own equipment room last night... nice to know your thoughts on this.

Thanks again.

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 10 May 2012, 11:25 pm
Paul,

What a fantastic and most importanly very thorough review. 

Sounds like you had an extremely busy 3 days.   :o
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 10 May 2012, 11:25 pm
Due to length I won't quote Paul's post, but nice review  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 10 May 2012, 11:27 pm
Due to length I won't quote Paul's post, but nice review  :thumb:

+1 :dance:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 10 May 2012, 11:31 pm
Wow, another "I bought the review sample", it's a game changer review!

It would be very interesting to see a final tally when the tour is over of how many that heard the ncore bought modules subsequently themselves.....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 10 May 2012, 11:54 pm
Quote
Anyone know if a Torus power conditioner would work with the NCores?


Sorry mr_bill I didn't mean to do that.

To answer your question, you would need to try it.  It will work the question is whether it would sound better or not. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 11 May 2012, 12:59 am
Nice words Paul, far better than I can do.

Quote
I threw in the towel. On Tuesday Martin generously came over and we endeavored to swap the delicate, easily destroyed Accuton drivers, yet again. And when we powered up the Ncores, feeding new, old Martens we got excellent sound, with the soundstaging and imaging I'd so dearly missed.

Glad to hear this, I know it was pissing you off.:-)

Mike
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 11 May 2012, 01:43 am
Wow, another "I bought the review sample", it's a game changer review!

It would be very interesting to see a final tally when the tour is over of how many that heard the ncore bought modules subsequently themselves.....

At DIY I read up to about one month after the reviews appeared (approximately page 150, now over 300 pages).  I think I read all the AC reviews. 

Of an estimated 30 audiophiles who auditioned (all or most A-B against serious competition including a recording studio playing HR masters), IIRC only one did not purchase or express desire to purchase Ncore.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Tyson on 11 May 2012, 01:50 am
I guess that would be me :)  I'm sticking w/my hotrodded VTA ST70 tube amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 11 May 2012, 02:33 am
I guess that would be me :)  I'm sticking w/my hotrodded VTA ST70 tube amps.

Dude, I want to hear that thing!  I'm on such a power kick since changing from tubes to the "dark side" (SS)  :lol: But the 30W OTL seemed to play loud enough, so maybe a 25-30W ST70 would work.     
 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhakti on 11 May 2012, 02:38 am
funny how we react so favorably to an analytic review - when it is the exact opposite we really respond too.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 11 May 2012, 02:46 am
Based on Sunday's listening session, I would agree with Barry's less than enthusiastic evaluation of either amp.

Paul, very nice review. I hope you don't think I was unimpressed with your system, I really do think it sounded quite good. Lots of dimension and space, key things I really like to hear in a system. Maybe a bit more forward than I prefer, but still a system I'd be happy to listen to at length at any time. Please feel free to invite me over to listen again, I'd be happy to fight the traffic and hunt for a parking spot ;) In my review/comments I was merely trying to contrast the differences I'd heard between the two amplifiers, and their effects on the systems I'd heard them in. As you noted, the differences weren't earth shattering, so I didn't get overly excited about it in my writing.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 11 May 2012, 02:50 am
Dude, I want to hear that thing!  Too bad I need so much more power. 
 

More than 600/1200 watts into 8/4 ohms(?) That's a lot of power...

Of course I'm talking about using two modules and one power-supply per channel, but how much more than that do you need?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 11 May 2012, 03:00 am
More than 600/1200 watts into 8/4 ohms(?) That's a lot of power...

Of course I'm talking about using two modules and one power-supply per channel, but how much more than that do you need?

Barry,
My bad!  I edited the post...I was referring to Tyson's lovely modded Dyna ST70.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 11 May 2012, 03:37 am
Got ya ;)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 11 May 2012, 04:25 am
Thanks to Occam / Paul for the invite to audition the NCore mono's...and thanks to Jason for the AC tour.  :thumb:

After 5 hours of listening....and close to 50 different tunes....my opinion.....

................I LIKED THEM....  :beer:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 13 May 2012, 10:46 pm
NCore 400, could very well fulfill my long standing quest for a SS amp with the unique signature of the 'best' tube sound yoked to the low maintenance of SS.
What I like about the 'tube sound' is the 'feeling' of the notes, it like what the blind feels when handling an object, the 3D aspect of each note. THe Ncore amp has some of this, enough to satisfy my taste.
The good thing about this hobby is that the able and the willing can take any product and meld it to one's liking, in the last couple days, I have lived and breathe the NCore 'sound'...yes, it has a sound, at least I hear a signature...its sweet without the syrupy, solid without the hardness, dynamic without effort.

The Ncore needs to warm up, minimum 1 hr, gets much better(liquidly?) after 6-8 hours. It responds well to isolation, weight-damping, cabling, like any other component. Right at this moment it has been on for about 18 hours, and the sound is very enchanting, the standup bass notes sound elastic, the hi hats has just the right amount of sustain, piano notes has that true live feel to it...and the live applause has that hand sting feeling as though you are also clapping along with the recorded audience.

I have now heard them in three different systems; Occam's/Paul vs his ASKA on Marten Miles2, bass and midrange was better on the NCore to a degree, hi's might have been a wash between the two amps, and last evening on Al's (forgot his AC handle) system vs. his NuForce 18(?) powering B&W 802...again NCore had better bass, tighter and more clean, upper frequencies had better shapes and clarity. And finally on my own system. Most of my electronics wouldn't garner a second look from most audiophiles  :icon_lol: , except my pre and maybe speakers, but I have tweaked the hell out of them with the results far exceeding the sum of the parts. Having heard many systems via the local raves and the various shows mainly CES/The Show, I think my system holds up well in comparison...of course every audiophile feels his/her baby is alla' that and a bag of chips.  :lol:

Here is what the NCore brought to my system, the magic 'tone' of tubes but only 'cleaner', the punch of the mid-bass with a sort of bottomless reach just for good measure, percussive notes to die for (I play a lot of world folk music), and...and...enchantment, no sense of listener fatigue.
Might just be the 'perfect' amp for me, if not for the people of Yaar.  :thumb:

My system:
Philips 795 SACD changer/Yamaha 1800 SACD/DVD-A player >EE DAC> CAT pre> Marchand Crossover>Response Audio 3205 Signature on mid/hi with Crown XTi1002 on bass(divison @ 250Hz) VMPS RM1.
 Cabling is a hodgepodge of DIY, Kaplan, Grover Zx(tour demos), AR, and CArdas.
A variety of footers...Stillpoints, Black Diamond, Walker, Tiptoes, LAT, Crazy and Happy Balls, and DIY.

Music played over the past 2 weeks:Jon Hassell 'Earthquake Island', String Theory 'triptych', Miles Espanol, Jazzhole 'blackburst', 'Further Explorations' Corea/Motion/Gomez, plus my various series of demo discs with music from all over the Globe.

Atop the heap
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62566)


First placement.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62567)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 13 May 2012, 11:25 pm
Great review, I really "got" his meaning. 

For reader info: VMPS or member mjosef can chime in, but my recollection from employ there is all RM1 employ the older Bohlender-Graebener planar mid, single ended, ferrite magnet, vs. the current planar mid, push-pull, neodymium.  IIRC the RM1 discontinued before the new mids arrived.  The mids look very different from each other: older protrudes about 1/2" above the baffle, new almost flat.  Older 6 or 8 large vents/copper diaphragm, newer more vents/aluminum diaphragm. 

I presume the mid high-pass crossover is VMPS passive in the RM1. 

Also IIRC the new mid crosses @ 260 Hz, different from the old mid, but again, VMPS can confirm or correct.  260 Hz is closest to C4 or middle C.  If you have a guitar laying around that's the 1st fret of the B string (normal tuning): 2nd string from the bottom, 2nd highest pitch string, the 2nd thinnest string.

Piano key frequencies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies)

That frequency is higher than the average active bass/mid crossover pole.  Absolutely no value judgement, just a reader note for review context.     
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 14 May 2012, 12:07 am
Tonight I will test out the low volume results, since its pretty late already.

How'd this work out for you Martin...low volume listening ?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 14 May 2012, 12:52 am
Quote
For reader info: VMPS or member mjosef can chime in, but my recollection from employ there is all RM1 employ the older Bohlender-Graebener planar mid, single ended, ferrite magnet, vs. the current planar mid, push-pull, neodymium.  IIRC the RM1 discontinued before the new mids arrived.  The mids look very different from each other: older protrudes about 1/2" above the baffle, new almost flat.  Older 6 or 8 large vents/copper diaphragm, newer more vents/aluminum diaphragm.

Both the RM1 and RM626 I got have the current mid panels from Level 9 Design, Both came with the passive crossover @ 166Hz to megawoofers, I removed the guts of the RM1 crossover network to outside the box, eliminating the bass coil and the mid panel network(except the upper cut off coil), plus upgraded the tweeter cap to sonicaps with a russian teflon bypass(value matched of course). Later on I believe Brian switched to 280Hz for the 626.
Most of my listening was done on the 626, easier to compare different amps with a single amp.
When I first took delivery of the Ncores, I opted for just replacing the Crown since it was easier to swap, I did have to adjust the balance between the mid/hi(tube amp) and bass amp(Ncore). Later on I tried the Ncore in place of the tube amp on the mid/hi with the Crown back on the bass drivers.
Early this morning I went back to my RM1's with the Ncore on the mid/hi, as it is now...before I pack them up for shipment tonight.


Low level listening was excellent...three clicks on the CAT pot, clarity and image depth/density was all present.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 14 May 2012, 02:22 am
I'd have to disagree with mjosef and say I like all or most of his gear quite a bit.

The following is only for reader clarification and in absolutely no way is argumentative.  I'm invested in three Ncore due any day.  Please correct as necessary: The review system in the earlier post lists active xo, Crown bass amp/(tube amp) above middle C, VMPS RM1. 

Then the later post states most of the listening was single amp VMPS 626R.  What amp vs. Ncore?  I can only presume the tubes because a Crown SS brute seems not a great match with the planar mid and planar tweeter. 

That leaves the tube amp powering full range VMPS 626R. I owned this model with the best mid bass vintage late 2006-early 2007.  ATI's big 200/350W SS power amp regularly clipped powering the mid bass only in passive biamp.  I do like live levels in a then-2700cf room.  Just providing context that most tube amps powering 626R full range might have difficulty moving those mid bass.  But conversely, I know that speaker/listener/boundary relationships, listener subjectivity (loud for one is not for another), and music program is a complicated bag of inter-related worms.  YMMV.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 14 May 2012, 06:01 am
I'd have to disagree with mjosef and say I like all or most of his gear quite a bit.

The following is only for reader clarification and in absolutely no way is argumentative.  I'm invested in three Ncore due any day.  Please correct as necessary: The review system in the earlier post lists active xo, Crown bass amp/(tube amp) above middle C, VMPS RM1. 

Then the later post states most of the listening was single amp VMPS 626R.  What amp vs. Ncore?  I can only presume the tubes because a Crown SS brute seems not a great match with the planar mid and planar tweeter. 

That leaves the tube amp powering full range VMPS 626R. I owned this model with the best mid bass vintage late 2006-early 2007.  ATI's big 200/350W SS power amp regularly clipped powering the mid bass only in passive biamp.  I do like live levels in a then-2700sf room.  Just providing context that most tube amps powering 626R full range might have difficulty moving those mid bass.  But conversely, I know that speaker/listener/boundary relationships, listener subjectivity (loud for one is not for another), and music program is a complicated bag of inter-related worms.  YMMV.

jim - 2700sf?  or cu-ft?  2700sf is a pretty big room.   8)  your present room, which is a good size, comes in at ~3100cu-ft.  joseph's room, at 11x14x10 would easily accommodate spls from 626r's as loud as tolerable w/his tube amplification, imo...

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 14 May 2012, 06:06 am
Let me clarify the timeline...
Wednesday nite picked up the Ncores. First position was in for the Crown which powers the bass drivers of the bi-amped RM1(via Marchand electronic crossover @250Hz/ 24dB) with RA 3205S tube amp powering mid/hi section.

Thursday morning moved the Ncores to the mid/hi with the Crown on the bass. At this point I had the Ncores resting on the Crown atop a layer of wool felt, not an ideal position, and the sound was not inspiring.  Tried some footings and got improvment but it still wasn't happening. Thursday evening shifted to the RM626 which ment removing the RM1 (no small task), listened to the 626 powered by the tube amp for a couple hours, then switched to the Crown...by the time I got to the Ncores turn it was midnite(thurs.), still atop the Crown(which was off) and so it was until Saturday nite, after a trip to a fellow audiophile home and a evening concert. Sat. nite was when I finally placed the Ncores on the top shelf where the tube amp usually sits. Here is where it really shone, with the right footers(Black Diamond #4 cones) and Walker brass/lead base as shown in the posted pics.

Amps compared to on the 626R, Response Audio 3205 Sig. tube amp , Crown XTi1002 and Exposure 2010 amp.  My room is small 11x14 and filled with stuff. Speakers are about 5feet apart and I sit about 7-8 ft' away. Normal listening level are between 70dB and 90dB...not that loud.

Sunday @noon reinstated RM1, kept Ncore on top shelf powering mid/hi with Crown on bass. This set up constituted the rest of my listening session all through the evening until I packed up the Ncores around 10pm.

Final thoughts.
Going back to my usual set up I began to second guess my impressions, tubes just does something with the midrange that SS never seem to touch...I thought the Ncores had some of the qualities that tubes bring and whilst the Ncores were in the system I didn't really miss that quality...now with the tube amp back in on the mid/hi, I don't really miss the Ncore.  :lol:

Full range Ncore might pull ahead of the individual amps but in my situation where I am powering just the midrange/ hi freq. above 250Hz, the results are much closer and depending on the tubes used...anyway I still need a (cooler running)summer amp to sub for the tube amp during hot summer days and so far the Ncores meet that critera. Today was a warmer day and the temp. in my apt hit 83*F...my apt is usually 10* warmer than the outside temp.

The end.  :thumb:


Edit: Doug is absolutely right, 40W.  tube power(KT77) is plenty...I also have a 20W. tube amp (Jolida 102b/ EL84s) which does magic at reasonable volume.

Also I find the Crown on the 626 to be quite good, surprisingly good actually, throws a massive soundstage and with the right conditioning has a slightly sweet tone.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 14 May 2012, 06:07 am
jim - 2700sf?  or cu-ft?  2700sf is a pretty big room.   8)  your present room, which is a good size, comes in at ~3100cu-ft.  joseph's room, at 11x14x10 would easily accommodate spls from 626r's as loud as tolerable w/his tube amplification, imo...

doug s.

My bad: 2700cf, edited above, thanks!

Yeah, reading above, I agree, my power needs are much different...maybe I should delete that post.  I saw 115+ dB peaks on my decades old RS meter, no idea of its accuracy.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 14 May 2012, 06:26 am
...Going back to my usual set up I began to second guess my impressions, tubes just does something with the midrange that SS never seem to touch...I thought the Ncores had some of the qualities that tubes bring and whilst the Ncores were in the system I didn't really miss that quality...now with the tube amp back in on the mid/hi, I don't really miss the Ncore.  :lol:

This makes me laugh.  I've had similar experiences and I'm not surprised to read this.  Tyson's tube comments messed with my head and since he posted his review I've been thinking a lot about tubes, again...


Quote
Full range Ncore might pull ahead of the individual amps but in my situation where I am powering just the midrange/ hi freq. above 250Hz, the results are much closer and depending on the tubes used...anyway I still need a (cooler running)summer amp to sub for the tube amp during hot summer days and so far the Ncores meet that critera. Today was a warmer day and the temp. in my apt hit 83*F...my apt is usually 10* warmer than the outside temp.

This is funny too, for two reasons: first, warm environs where audio fans consider winter and summer amps...we know about tires, but isn't this, well, different?  Second reason is you'll seldom hear protest of amp heat from me or my neighbors in N. Utah, especially in the basement!  (62" of snow average...my wife is fond of repeating this fact.)


Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 14 May 2012, 04:54 pm
Jim, you could always consider moving to St. George or Hurricane.  :lol:
I spent a few years in Kanab and I KNOW where there is less snow to be had in the state of UTAH.
Scotty
 
This is a sort of a UTAH joke, you kind of had to have lived there and watched the daily weather reports on KUTV,KSL or KTVX it doesn't really matter which one, the reports will be the same HOT.
See link. http://stgeorgelexington.com/blog/southern-utah-climate/st-george-utah-climate/
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 14 May 2012, 06:19 pm
Martin,

Thanks for the great review. I especially focused on your comments about mechanical isolation devices and their associated changes to subjective sound. I didn't get a chance, or was frankly too lazy, to play that kind of slap and tickle with the Ncores when they were here. Isolation tweaks certainly have a strong influence on my Aksa Lifeforce.

Thanks again,
Paul
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 15 May 2012, 01:23 am
I didn't really detail much about the tweaky stuff since it will vary depending on local circumstances...my pic show two Walker pucks, later on I resorted to just one per unit, since I felt the sound was kinda 'heavy' with two...with one the sound felt more airy, more open.
YMWV of course.


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=62566)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: maxwalrath on 17 May 2012, 07:14 pm
More to follow later tonight or tomorrow.

I'm switching sources and preamps back and forth, but in general, I can say that the attack and decay of notes is lightening fast.

Albums that always appeared to be so well engineered in their complexity with a blend of sounds in the background (Radiohead's Kid A and Pink Floyd's A Momentary Lapse of Reason) have those individual sounds fleshed out so they can be individually identified. The background singers on the Floyd album are way more distinguishable from each other than they have ever been in my system.

The Very Best of Cream sounds more like a live album than I've noticed before.

The transparency of a Warpspeed Optocoupler before the NCores is something special.

Headroom is there in spades as one might expect with 400w amps and 92db efficient Reference 3A DeCapo i's. I can play at volumes way above painful levels without the sound becoming strained.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 17 May 2012, 07:31 pm
It's good when you hear mixing board noise modulate up/down as the engineer/producer fades the slider on a 60s-70s era board.  (Though it pains me to hear how compressed and lifeless Roy Buchanan's last album In The Beginning sounds compared to the 3M 2" 24-track studio master, which sounded a lot closer to the live event.)  Dr. Patrick Gleason and John Viera's Different Fur Trading Company in San Francisco had among the best recording studios of that era (Herbie Hancock's Headhunters).           
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 17 May 2012, 10:49 pm
I posted my thoughts a number of pages back. This morning I ordered 2 NC400s and 2 SMPS600s. I just could not get the sound out of my head. I remember exactly (well, pretty darn close :wink:) what they sounded like and miss it too much not to have them. :green:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: maxwalrath on 17 May 2012, 10:59 pm
I posted my thoughts a number of pages back. This morning I ordered 2 NC400s and 2 SMPS600s. I just could not get the sound out of my head. I remember exactly (well, pretty darn close :wink:) what they sounded like and miss it too much not to have them. :green:

Yeah, I'll probably take the plunge too as soon as financially possible.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 19 May 2012, 11:43 am
More to follow later tonight or tomorrow.

Look forward to it.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Nikola on 22 May 2012, 10:26 pm
What happened?!?!?!  :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: emailtim on 22 May 2012, 10:41 pm
Did the Tour Bus get a flat tire ??? :|
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 02:34 pm
The tour bus made a stop at my place last night!

Randy (RKlein) brought over the tour NCore's for a listen (I will be shipping them to the next tour member, Paul, on Monday).  This will be a brief first impression before i get another night or two of serious listening in.  In the meantime, Randy will be posting his thoughts as well (spoiler alert: he bought his own pair and they arrived in pieces on Thurs).

Now, my listening test is somewhat relevant for a couple of reasons, the greatest of which is that my SP Tech Revelation MR-I Mark 4's are not only very revealing, but they pose quite a load for these single monoblocks.  Although on paper they are 88db and an average 4-5 ohm load, most SP tech owners will tell you that all of Bob's designs love power.  When i had Spectrons the transformation from stereo to monolocks was revelatory.  Even my McCormick DNA-500's seemed, at times, to need a little oomph.  My current amps, the wonderful Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks, don't seem to need anything except the proper break-in and warm-up.  And at 650w/ch into 4 ohms I was worried the single monoblock configuration of the NCores (400w 4 ohm) might be a little light, although I can't honestly tell you what "not quite enough power" sounds like, except for obvious clipping under extreme circumstances.

So Randy, Rob (questfortone) and I sat down to listen to several tracks via the Modwright before we made the transition.  Source is a Hynes-powered Auraliti PK90USB Linux music server, SOtM USB card, Meitner MA-1 DSD-capable DAC, into an original Bent TAP S&B TVC preamp.  Source material was a mix of DSD native, 24/96 hirez and some redbook.  I am currently running my Furutech Evo II cables as RCA (my other pre, the Concert Fidelity CF-080 is single ended only) so I used TomS's nice XLR adapters. 

Randy is classically trained so we started with pure DSD recorded piano (Mari Kodama, Pentatone) and then some large orchestra Shostakovich in DSD (Cleve Orchestra, Telarc).  I think Randy was impressed (he needs to respond in his own words) cuz he turned around to me from the listening chair and said, with a little emotion, (paraphrased) "send the NCores on to the next guy, why the f--- would you change anything!!"   :) 

Well, change we did.  All three of us were quite concerned that the demo was going to be too much for the Ncores.  I mean, c'mon!  I removed the Audience AR1-P passive wall conditioner/outlets since all of you recommend "straight into the wall" for these midgets, so that's what we did.

The first impression is "hmmm, there is something different here, but not sure what it is...but regardless, these things are amazingly keeping up".  Not a WOW thing, more like a gentle surprise.  However, as we traversed through various cuts we became more and more impressed.  To me, on first blush, it's as if I moved back several rows in the concert hall, but am also getting a likely more timbre-accurate sound.  Better?  Not really, just different.  The Modwright's are much more technicolor and fifth row center, with balls and more balls.  The Ncore's are fifteenth row center (or maybe back a little further; I will know more in a day or so), with the subsequent slightly narrower but deeper soundstage, and less technicolor but maybe slightly more shading and ability to discern light medium brown from very light medium brown.  Frequency extremes have not been compromised either.  I suspect a little less midbass, but that's sometimes a very good thing.  Sara K's Waterfall occasional very low 25-30hz synth bass note shakes the room, possibly even more than the MW's.

I am a dynamics guy and an imaging freak.  Neither aspect has been necessarily compromised, but yet I still need to settle in to this.  My standard is the fifth row, so this is going to take a little getting used to, but even later in the evening the new seats seemed much more comfortable to me already.  Stay tuned.

OH...and they really never ran out of gas.  :)  I am still firmly convinced they might, and that if I owned them they would be bridged mono, but who cares right now!   They are making nice music.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 May 2012, 02:47 pm
Great write-up Ted. That bodes well for my SP Minis. Looking forward to comparing the ncores to my Butler 2250.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: firedog on 26 May 2012, 03:32 pm
Ted, any chance you can give it a try using your Mytek 192 DSD? I'm about to take delivery on one (will also be using it as a pre, at least at first) so I'd be interested. In any case might be interesting, as it is more affordable than the Meitner.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: konut on 26 May 2012, 04:15 pm
I think Randy was impressed (he needs to respond in his own words) cuz he turned around to me from the listening chair and said, with a little emotion, (paraphrased) "send the NCores on to the next guy, why the f--- would you change anything!!"   :)   :thumb:

I LOLed at this!! Great review!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 04:37 pm
Ted, any chance you can give it a try using your Mytek 192 DSD? I'm about to take delivery on one (will also be using it as a pre, at least at first) so I'd be interested. In any case might be interesting, as it is more affordable than the Meitner.

Actually, Randy took my Mytek for a demo spell, so he can give you feedback once his new Ncores are built and settled in.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 26 May 2012, 06:09 pm
Ted,

I'm curious. What is the list price of your Modwright monoblocks?

Thanks,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 26 May 2012, 06:25 pm
...And at 650w/ch into 4 ohms I was worried the single monoblock configuration of the NCores (400w 4 ohm) might be a little light.

Great review, like I was right there experiencing it....better than many or most pro glossy reviews in that regard.

So your ModWright monos are 650W @ 4 Ohms?  I suspect that at 2 Ohms (may not apply to your speakers at all) Ncore NC400/SMPS600 monos may be more stable and have more current vs. MW bridged mono blocks.  Your comments welcome.   

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 06:40 pm
Ted,

I'm curious. What is the list price of your Modwright monoblocks?

Thanks,
Anand.

Anand, they list for $6k each.  However, this is not a simple math problem; the Ncores (at this point in my brief listening) do not do what the KWA-150 monoblocks do (and vice versa).  It's not a case of "$2k Ncores blow away $12k amps".  My impressions are of two different presentations, and the decisions regarding them.  We all know the last few percent of anything in this hobby are expensive, and if that is all this was, it would be an easier evaluation.   Pardon the obvious sexism here, but a decent analog is this: the Modwrights are a beautiful brunette with medium-expensive tastes; the ncores a petite beautiful blonde with simple tastes....and up till now I've preferred living with brunettes.  Is this new blonde attractive cuz she's "new"?  (I apologize to vinyl lady and all the other AC women here; I didn't mean to bring this thing into the gutter.  :)  )  the Modwrights are also available to be upgraded to the SE version (and Dan has held frozen a great deal for me in that regard...I'm a longtime MW customer and beta tester, etc.).  Don't even ask what that translates to in my brunette analogy.  :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: gprro on 26 May 2012, 07:15 pm
Sounds like they might play well with big line arrays which tend to put you way up front anyway. Anyone tried them that way yet? Any oddities trying to control that many drivers?

Hey Anand, you or JT going to bring these ti Rich's get together? Hopefully I'll see you guys there. Check you're pm too :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 26 May 2012, 08:09 pm
Great review, like I was right there experiencing it....better than many or most pro glossy reviews in that regard.   

+1

I am really enjoying hearing what everyone has to say about the NCores. I'm also learning a bunch about many different amps I have not heard. Thanks to all who are responding with comments on their listening experiences and thanks again to Jason. :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 26 May 2012, 08:19 pm
...the Modwrights are also available to be upgraded to the SE version (and Dan has held frozen a great deal for me in that regard...

Curious what you meant by "held frozen?"

At 2012 CES Dan's ModWright KSA150SE powering high-$20k to low-$30K AudioMachina speakers was among the best reproduced sound ever.  Source was Dan's prototype preamp/DAC (one less interconnect vs. separates, and Dan said one less gain stage). 

AM enclosures appear to be sum total two pieces: carved solid aluminum main body comprising four sides and baffle + one removable panel (rear).  Music program was Frank Vignola Trio Live in NY (Bucky Pizzarelli sat in on a couple tunes) playing a Thorell FV Premier arch top built 10 minutes from me.  I've played Frank's personal guitars and saw him live.  That system captured the essence of Frank's unique tone and style. 

The AM speaker designer lamented the deaf ears inherent in most of the visiting audiophiles-present company excluded of course!  (IIRC it was getting late on Sunday the last day of the show, when vendors long to get out of dodge and eat a home cooked meal).     

It's natural to presume the standard KSA150 stereo performs below the KSA150SE stereo.  And also natural to presume two mono KSA150 perform somewhere between a stereo KSA150 and stereo KSA150SE. 

We can make our own conclusions after seeing a $2k pair of mono blocks still standing in the ring in direct A-B with $12k Dan Wright mono blocks.

I'm age 57 and never heard of such a generous audiophile offer as Jason offering his prized Ncore amps for a free tour.  Incredible.  Can't imagine any amp companies (except Bruno) doing any favors for Jason in the near future!   :lol:       
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 08:48 pm
James,
The monolock KWA-150's clearly outperform a KWA-150SE stereo IMO (on my speakers at least). It''s his monoblock SE's that are the next step.  By "frozen" I  simply meant Dan is doing me a favor and offered me a nice deal to upgrade, which I haven't done yet.  His offer stands, that's all.

Guys, I am NOT intending this as an a/b comparison; I'm not doing a shoot out or anything.  It's two very different amps, doing very different things. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 May 2012, 08:57 pm
Ted, Thanks for all the clarity in your review (though I can't stop thinking about what amp might be a redhead  :scratch:).
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 May 2012, 08:59 pm
Ted, Thanks for all the clarity in your review (though I can't stop thinking about what amp might be a redhead  :scratch:).

Atma-Sphere OTL"s!!   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 May 2012, 09:05 pm
Atma-Sphere OTL"s!!   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

George

I'll buy that.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 09:19 pm
I'll buy that.

Congrats George, you have a buyer for your At-Ma's!!   :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 May 2012, 09:19 pm
Congrats George, you have a buyer for your At-Ma's!!  :0

Still not sure that they are for sale.   :o

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 26 May 2012, 09:37 pm
JT going to bring these ti Rich's get together? Hopefully I'll see you guys there.
As long as I'm still able to make it, they will be there.  I got my second pair together last night so I'm back to NCore listening.   :green:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 26 May 2012, 09:59 pm
As long as I'm still able to make it, they will be there.  I got my second pair together last night so I'm back to NCore listening.   :green:

+1  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 26 May 2012, 11:46 pm
Ric, once again please don't take my freaking impressions as "going head to head with Modwright".  Just because someone posts his/her listening impressions and compares it to his/her existing setup, doesn't mean it's a shoot-out!

Also, I thought this thread was about tour listening impressions.  My $.02 is that Ric ought to split his mod discussion off to an Ncore mod thread.  Edit:  oops, there already is a Ric Schultz modding thread
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106382.0

Don't get me wrong; modding is a great topic, just not here on this tour feedback thread.

Edit:  I posted Ric's comments over on his thread, and then commented.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 26 May 2012, 11:50 pm
+1

Ric, once again please don't take my freaking impressions as "going head to head with Modwright".  Just because someone posts his/her listening impressions and compares it to his/her existing setup, doesn't mean it's a shoot-out!

Also, I thought this thread was about tour listening impressions.  My $.02 is that Ric ought to split his mod discussion off to an Ncore mod thread.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jeffrey Hedback on 27 May 2012, 12:16 am
Just a supportive comment on Ted's description of his room as being "fifth row center"...YES INDEED.  Brilliant description of the listening experience in your room.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 27 May 2012, 12:46 am
I would love to see pics of the behemoths these little 4oz beasties are being compared to. More pics please!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 27 May 2012, 02:45 am
Don't get me wrong; modding is a great topic, just not here on this tour feedback thread.

Edit:  I posted Ric's comments over on his thread, and then commented.
You're correct!  This thread is for Tour Listening Impressions. 

I have moved that post to the Tweaking Thread.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: earflappin on 27 May 2012, 01:01 pm
It's two very different amps, doing very different things. 

When i first listened to the NCOREs i had a similar reaction to Ted...i.e. I immediately registered they were different than the other amps I was accustomed to hearing.  It took me several hours to be certain different was better.  It will be interesting to read his comments after more extensive listening. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 27 May 2012, 02:48 pm
Quote
my standard is the fifth row, so this is going to take a little getting used to, but even later in the evening the new seats seemed much more comfortable to me already.

Thanks for sharing Ted. Have you tried to move your speakers closer to you and perhaps spread them out a bit? Or, for an easy try, move your chair closer so you get the 5th row effect?

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 27 May 2012, 02:56 pm
Thanks for sharing Ted. Have you tried to move your speakers closer to you and perhaps spread them out a bit? Or, for an easy try, move your chair closer so you get the 5th row effect?

Rocket_Ronny

Valid points, but no and yes.  My speakers are massive and are on Sistrum SP-101 stands (albeit 2 inches high) with points, so I move them only to make sure toe in is spot on (within half an inch).  I moved my listening chair up a bit but it introduces tradeoffs that I'm not willing to barter with.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 27 May 2012, 03:42 pm

Fair enough. I know the hassle involved. Often a system change requires new speaker placement, even dac and preamp changes, as you know. If it was me and I had bought the NCores to make the effort worth while, I would pull them out more, perhaps move my seat back a bit and spread the speakers a bit, as well as toe in. Then you should be able to get the 5th row with the same spread you had. Perhaps.

Anyway, always enjoy you comments and thanks for the review.
uNCore, uNCore.  :thumb:

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 28 May 2012, 01:39 am
ted_b, a couple questions come to mind after reading your listening impressions.
Would you say you listen in the far field or near field? Also is the fifth row center presentation from your system with the Modwright 150 amps consistent from one recording to another or does the perspective change depending upon the recording your are listening to.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 03:06 am
Scotty, I listen technically in the far field, as my listening position is ever so slightly farther (10 to 10.5 ft) away from the speakers as they are from each others center (9 ft).  But the differences are close enough, and the speakers large enough, that the feeling you get sitting there is one of near field. 

My somewhat flippant "5th row center" explanation is certainly fluid, as many live acoustic recordings (especially classical) force one to "sit"  further in perspective.  My 5th row is best explained as a wide enveloped perspective, with somewhat aggressive dynamics and a feeling of being near the mix.  This is especially true of studio produced multi-miked recordings, anything from Radiohead to Patricia Barber.

I find many sources and amplification devices that don't allow this fluid nature to occur; i.e everything sounds from the same row!  I dismiss those demos fairly quickly. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 28 May 2012, 03:30 am
ted_b, thanks for clarifying your description of what you heard. Does the Ncore's more distant perspective also change with the recording and did the perspective change after the amplifiers were left on overnight?
 I am unclear about how long the amplifiers are in peoples possession. I have heard amplifiers that take as long as three days to come back "on-line" after being powered down for five days during shipping. If the amps are powered down for a week during transit and then are powered up for only 24 to 48 hrs. during listening sessions, I consider it remarkable that they are acquitting themselves so well under what I would define as less than ideal circumstances.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 28 May 2012, 03:33 am
I have heard amplifiers that take as long as three days to come back "on-line" after being powered down for five days during shipping.

What could possibly cause that?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 28 May 2012, 03:59 am
The electrolytic capacitors in the power supply can partially un-form in the absence of an applied DC voltage.
When the capacitors do this their dynamic impedance rises, especially at higher frequencies.
I have experienced this phenomena with amps that have power supplies using Jensen 4-pole electrolytic capacitors. They are fantastic caps, but they do like to have a DC voltage applied to them on a constant basis, which is why I leave my stereo system powered up all the time.
 While the Jensen 4-poles are the worst offenders, I have also heard the same phenomena from high resolution DACS and preamps utilizing very low impedance caps in their power supplies.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a similar thing could occur with the Ncore amps.
 Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 28 May 2012, 04:20 am
Scotty....

I see from the audition list the amps will be heading to DC next....maybe you can contact paul427 for a listen.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=40211
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 28 May 2012, 12:54 pm
The electrolytic capacitors in the power supply can partially un-form in the absence of an applied DC voltage.
When the capacitors do this their dynamic impedance rises, especially at higher frequencies.
I have experienced this phenomena with amps that have power supplies using Jensen 4-pole electrolytic capacitors. They are fantastic caps, but they do like to have a DC voltage applied to them on a constant basis, which is why I leave my stereo system powered up all the time.
 While the Jensen 4-poles are the worst offenders, I have also heard the same phenomena from high resolution DACS and preamps utilizing very low impedance caps in their power supplies.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a similar thing could occur with the Ncore amps.
 Scotty

FWIW, I didn't notice any significant change over time with the amps (unlike with my Atma-Sphere MA-1's which do get better within the first hour they are on).  The amps were on for over 24 hrs straight.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 01:23 pm
The electrolytic capacitors in the power supply can partially un-form in the absence of an applied DC voltage.
When the capacitors do this their dynamic impedance rises, especially at higher frequencies.
I have experienced this phenomena with amps that have power supplies using Jensen 4-pole electrolytic capacitors. They are fantastic caps, but they do like to have a DC voltage applied to them on a constant basis, which is why I leave my stereo system powered up all the time.
 While the Jensen 4-poles are the worst offenders, I have also heard the same phenomena from high resolution DACS and preamps utilizing very low impedance caps in their power supplies.
It's not beyond the realm of possibility that a similar thing could occur with the Ncore amps.
 Scotty

Scotty, I agree 100% with your perceptions here.  Almost any DAC or digital source  I've owned or demo'd required 48 hours of "settling in" (on top of the hundreds of hours of break-in).  My Modwright amps seem to settle in about 12 hours.  With the Ncores I haven't noticed any real changes since maybe the first few hours.  The first hour or so was a bit veiled and slightly looser bass, comparatively, but also nothing like other gear settling changes, sonically.  The settling in is very subtle here.

I ship to Paul (Wash DC) first thing in the am, so I have tonight to finalize my listening notes, and thoughts. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 28 May 2012, 02:44 pm
Scotty, I agree 100% with your perceptions here.  Almost any DAC or digital source  I've owned or demo'd required 48 hours of "settling in" (on top of the hundreds of hours of break-in).  My Modwright amps seem to settle in about 12 hours.  With the Ncores I haven't noticed any real changes since maybe the first few hours.  The first hour or so was a bit veiled and slightly looser bass, comparatively, but also nothing like other gear settling changes, sonically.  The settling in is very subtle here.

I ship to Paul (Wash DC) first thing in the am, so I have tonight to finalize my listening notes, and thoughts. 


Hi Ted. I need to post my listening impressions from the tour and will do so after this post but I would like to find out if you have tried any of the following during your listening.
First a little background;I had a chance to hear Jason's Ncore in three other and my system.

In your review you mention that when you (and a friend) first heard the Ncore you both were not impressed. Had the amp been on for some time with all connections already connected? I have a Nuforce Ref 18 and they must have a chance to be on for a while and they must have the cabling connected while they are on.
Did you use any after market footers under the amps? As that the amps are light any weight on top of them?
What if any after market power cabling did you use?
 
Please do not take my questions as an attack but as suggestions to try while you have them to review.
I also agree with the early posts that they need to be on (and played) for a few days to sound their best.

Regards, Al.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 03:05 pm
Hmm, I did not say we were not impressed.  On the contrary...I simply said it wasn't a WOW moment, but instead a "hmm, this is very special, these guys are keeping up" moment.  The Modwrights were a tough act to follow, so not having a "blown away" or "smoked" or "dusted" adjective does not mean I wasn't impressed (and I tend to wait to describe impressions anyway, especially since they were cold out of the box) .  Rob and Randy may have even had WOW responses, but I'll let them tell in their own words.  And yes, all connectors were connected.  :)  As stated in the initial feedback, we used the same aftermarket pc's as the Modwrights, with the only change being unhooking the Audience AR1-P single plug power conditioners from the ac path, as per owner recommendations.  The pc's are non-ferrite Cardas Golden Reference.  I've not played with swapping out other pc's (Kaplan, Synergistic, Black Sand, Lessloss).  They might react differently than the Modwright, yes, but that's true of the speaker cables (ASI Liveline) and the interconnects too.  I am not going to a/b every variable for this short feedback session.  I've already been asked to move my speakers, etc.  Not gonna happen, sorry.  And finally, as already stated the amps haven't changed much from the first several hours of settle in.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 28 May 2012, 03:21 pm
Ted...

Try some low (volume) level listening.

During my listening at Paul's, noticed how "full" they sounded at that level...pretty cool. :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 03:36 pm
Chris, Hi.  Yes, did that quite a bit (I read these impressions before testing).  They are nice at low level, as they should be.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 28 May 2012, 03:39 pm
Chris, Hi.  Yes, did that quite a bit (I read these impressions before testing).  They are nice at low level, as they should be.

Great...thanks Ted.

Reason I asked....there are some amps that "just don't get going" until you turn them up.

Have fun... :beer:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 04:24 pm
Chris, does it surprise you that these midgets are driving my Mundorf-max'd Revs as well as they are so far?  As I stated maybe in another Hypex thread, I am not sure what to listen for to uncover "underpowered" except for the obvious clipping.  Nothing obvious so far, but I have described them as less dynamic than what I am used to; wonder if bridging solves that?  George described a slight reduction in "air" (although others claimed his ATMA's overly enhance "air") and i would have to concur that effect with my listening, but it's not like describing faults...just differences.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 28 May 2012, 05:18 pm
Ted, I did look at your previous posts but must have missed the power cords. Also I must have misconstrued your statement on your first listen. As I said in my post, it was all meant as suggestions to try, if you had not yet, from someone who has heard them in several different systems, not criticizing. I look foreword to your finale review.

To all:
I will say I was very surprised how much of a difference vibration control had on the sound of the amps. As an audiophile engineer I know always likes to tell me " SS amps can not benefit from footers". I have to disagree,  especially after the Ncore. Mind that this was noticed by several (everyone in the room) people, some who had the Ncore as part of the tour and had heard it before in their system. Some had put the amps on speaker stands to help isolate it, others on top of their own amps. But I think the Ncore need to be placed on their own set of vibration control, in direct contact. Not every set of footers we tried improved the sound (all agreed). Some made it more dark and soft, though I guess that in some systems that might help, but not in mine. I feel, many do think with regard to the Ncore that it is pretty much set and forget, nothing to mess with.

Well, I will try and post what my impressions are on the Ncore as soon as I have a chance. 

 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 28 May 2012, 05:27 pm
Ted....

Quote
Chris, does it surprise you that these midgets are driving my Mundorf-max'd Revs as well as they are so far?

Yes...and no.
I know at Paul's/Occam's....on his Marten Miles II,  2 1/2 way floorstanders...they had no problems at high levels...held together just fine....no clipping.Listened for 5 hours....over 50 different tracks played.

And at low levels....still sounded very full...and dynamic. 8)

Since I've heard the SP Tech Rev's....and own the Mini's and TP 2.0's...I know they like good clean power to sound their best. Your speakers...and also PeteG's will be a good audition.

Quote
Nothing obvious so far, but I have described them as less dynamic than what I am used to; wonder if bridging solves that?

Maybe..... :scratch: ...once again system dependent.
I thought the amps presented a very neutral sound...and the bass it surprise me...for such little "mini's".... :lol:

As mentioned in this thread earlier....I like them. :thumb:

P.S. ...I should add....at Paul's(Occam)....no preamp was used...see his review.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1088532#msg1088532
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 28 May 2012, 05:41 pm
Ted, I have B&W 802D speakers and as much as they will play very well with 200watts, the more clean power I give them the better they sound. They are rated around 90db, 8ohm (dip to 4) and 50-500 watt. It is hard to put into words but they just sound better with more power. I agree that if the Ncore were bridged that would make a difference. I will either bi-amp or bridge my Ncore (can not decide yet). Also that is something else the B&W like, bi-amping or bi-wiring. Noticeable improvement in control and top to bottom extension and dynamics. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 28 May 2012, 06:27 pm
Hifial,
Yes it's always a tough decision on biamping vs bridging.  Kind of two sides to a coin.  In one case the tweeters get their own headroom, but in the other everyone benefits from more power.

And sorry, I didn't specify actual power cord brands in my first impressions, if that's what you meant.

Chris, thanks.  I'm thinking similarly.  Since bridging involves only two more modules (no power SMPS's) the temptation would be great.  To me, the dynamics are my heroin, and I'm starting to shake a little.   :o
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 May 2012, 12:03 am
Curious if anyone has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry amps yet....

Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

Thanks, and happy listening!

-Tommy O
 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: srb on 29 May 2012, 12:44 am
Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

The easy way is to just click the Print tab at the top right (or bottom right) of the page which will return a long single unformatted page containing all of the posts.  You can then use the Find command to search for the text you are looking for.

Steve
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: AmpDesigner333 on 29 May 2012, 02:18 am
The easy way is to just click the Print tab at the top right (or bottom right) of the page which will return a long single unformatted page containing all of the posts.  You can then use the Find command to search for the text you are looking for.

Steve
Doesn't work so well when trying that on an iPad, so I'll need to wait until I'm at a PC....  Good idea, though.   Thanks.
 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 29 May 2012, 03:49 am
Good Evening:

It is just before midnight here in Ohio.  My Memorial Day weekend was extremely busy with relatives in town along with an unexpected problem in regards to my Mom's house which I am trying to get ready to put on the market.

I sincerely apologize for not getting my impressions of the NCores on AC.  I will try and post them by end of Monday.  I will say that I was greatly impressed with these amps and will go into greater detail in my post tomorrow.

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 29 May 2012, 05:54 am
Curious if anyone has had the chance to A/B compare with Cherry amps yet....

Sorry if this has already been answered but there are just too many posts to go through to find out the hard way!

Thanks, and happy listening!

-Tommy O

 Haven't yet seen your amps compared. I've read everything available.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 29 May 2012, 04:40 pm
FedEx has the Ncores.  I waived bye bye with some fond memories and some sadness.

OK, well, here are, IMHO, the five best amps I’ve ever heard (for longer than 10 minutes or not solely at a Show)
Pass Labs XA .5 series
Clayton monoblocks
My Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks
Sanders Magtechs in monoblock mode
Hypex Ncore NC400’s

No, I haven’t heard hundreds of amps, and REALLY haven’t heard a good tube amp for a protracted amount of time, so this small list is simply mine for reference.  However, I have heard lots of amps, lots of Class D and Class A and Class AB and whatever.  Spectrons, Krells, BATs, NuForces, etc.   I’ve never heard an amp quieter or more resolving than the NCores, ever.  Quiet as in black, darkness, void…and this with goofy RCA-to-XLR adapters mind you.

The music that the NCores produce is smooth, relaxing, neutral (whatever that perspective is for me) and several orders of magnitude different than any Class D I’ve ever heard.  Usually Class D is resolving to a fault, meaning it faults in the upper atmosphere of haze, tininess and ethereal digititis.  Not the NCores.  They don’t call attention to any one aspect, and are the ultimate “transformer” for fixing a system that is slightly bright, or digital sounding (again, how weird to ask a digital amp to fix a digital sounding system). 

As I stated in my first listen on Friday night, the biggest issue one needs to get over is the fact that they will keep up with probably any amp you compare them to.  In my system they accomplished 95-99% of what I asked them to do, and for what….like $1800??  And in many less power-hungry systems, or for many less-dynamic hungry listeners, they will likely do 100+%.  Their diminutive physical presence is almost a problem, due to bias and expectation.  It’s like hearing those great modern mini-monitors and swearing a subwoofer must be on somewhere….so you have an obstacle going in that shouldn’t be there. 

On a purely personal level, I am not going to replace my Modwrights with the NCores, based on this wonderfully generous evaluation from Jason (and taking eval time away from generous Randy).  As I said, these mighty mites did almost everything I needed, but what they failed to bring to my ears was a deal-breaker of sorts, albeit small in perspective.   I am used to the possibly-artificial-but-nonetheless-important air and presence that my KWA-150’s impart.  A sort of dynamic that, given the right recording, makes a Marshall amp sound like it is in the room and electrifying the air.  The NCores make it sound like I am listening to that recording perfectly; the KWA’s make it sound like the recording is happening in my room.  This dynamic is not evident on many recordings, but when it is, I need it.  My hunch is that a possible solution may be quite simple…bridged mono configurations.  And I have an idea that will allow this eval to happen (I buy and have built bridged monos with 4 modules and 2 SMPS’s, then if I am wrong I use one mono for my center channel amp, and reconfig the other  to be my 2 channel surround music amp…selling my 2 existing McCormack DNA amps in the process).

Anyway, the evaluation and listening session were quite revelatory.  This amp architecture will change forever the stature and positioning of Class D, and will shake up the value proposition for DIY amplification. 

Thanks again to Jason for the stupidity, er, generosity of loaning the amps to us AC goofballs, to TomS for his adapters and overall help with this momentum, and to Randy for his generous offer to split time.  I gained a new local audio buddy in the process, and if that’s all that comes out of this…I’m ahead anyway.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Don_S on 29 May 2012, 04:49 pm
Ted,

Well written. A very useful perspective.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 29 May 2012, 04:58 pm
Thanks, Ted! Informative info presented without bias. :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 May 2012, 05:00 pm
Great review Ted. I'm just happy that they stood with the likes of the Modwright KWA-150's. That's high praise in and of itself. Beating those amps wasn't the issue. But matching or nearly matching them in speed, finesse, soundstaging, etc...is a tremendous achievement given the incredibly low cost of entry.

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 29 May 2012, 05:04 pm
I received Jason’s NCores on May 22nd.  I listened for around 2 1/2 hours Tuesday night and again on early Wednesday morning until my wife threatened me with bodily harm if I didn’t get to my office.  Back at it Wednesday evening for a couple of hours and again on Thursday evening for two to three hours.

As some of you already know, I am a classically trained musician.  I have had the opportunity to play in the Philadelphia Orchestra and Pittsburgh Symphony while in college and played in symphony orchestras for over 35 years.  Around 24 years ago, I had to give up being a full-time orchestral musician.  While I don’t play as much as I used to, I still am the Principal Clarinet of the Canton Symphony Orchestra and also play in the Cleveland Pops Orchestra.

What I listen for and what “floats my boat” is not so much hearing every little thing that was recorded but more the timbre and tone of the recording.  In addition, the musicality of the artist is way more important to me than whether the recording medium vinyl, Redbook, Hires, DSD, etc.  This view sometimes is in direct conflict of what audiophiles might consider to be a “great” recording.  An example of this would be my collection of 78 recordings of Fritz Kreisler, who was a great Austrian violin virtuoso at the end of the 19th and early 20th century.  Even though the audio quality on the 78’s are pretty atrocious, one can easily hear Kreisler’s burnished tone and the warmth of his playing shine right through.

My set-up is as follows:
Nightshade Audio Beacon III Pre with 3 6SN7’s
Nightshade Audio NS-60 SE tube rectified with 4 Black Treasure KT-88’s and 3 6SN7’s
Empire 598 TT (not used with the NCores)
Very inexpensive DAC purchased from Chris Adams (using until I decide on whether I am going to build my Buffalo III with Paul Hynes regs or buy something like the Mytek…)
Selah Audio TRT speakers which I DIY’d (Raal tweeter with 2 Scan Speak Revelator Woofers)
Morrow SP3 bi-wired speaker cable
Morrow MA4 IC’s throughout
Computer front end using foobar 2000 fed to a John Kenny MKII USB/SPDIF converter

I tended to play more complex music during my time with the NCores.  Except for the Diana Krall cut “The GirI in the Other Room” and Melody Gardot’s rendition of “Over the Rainbow”, I made it a point to stay away from a “chick with a guitar”.

My playlist was as follows:
Acoustic Alchemy      Casino
Diana Krall      The Girl in the Other Room
Melody Gardot      Over the Rainbow
Cleveland Orchestra  Madrigal from Prokofiev’s Romeo & Juliet conducted by Lorin MaazelTaylor Engesti      Promenade
Stevie Ray Vaughn      Tin Pan Alley
Herbie Hancock      Sting singing Sister Moon(Possibilities Album)
Berlin Philharmonic      Mahler’s Symphony No. 9 in D, 3rd Movement
Music from Marlboro   Schubert’s Der Hirt auf dem Felsen, (recorded live in 1960)   

I realize that we talk in terms of creating a “wider soundstage” at times.  Well, with the NCores, what I noticed was not so much a wider soundstage but rather a more defined soundstage.  The performers were in their correct positions.  I could absolutely picture Stevie Ray Vaughn sitting not way out in front but right with bass guitarist Tommy Shannon. 

With Dianna Krall, there is something about her voice that makes me turn her off after 3 or 4 cuts.  With the NCores, I turned her off after two cuts.  What I mean by this is that the NCores brought out the very timbre in her voice that I don't care for.  I feel that this is a good thing as it tells me the NCores are an "honest" amp. 

I was listening to a live performance that was recorded back in the 60's from the Marlboro Summer Music Festival.  The performers were
Rudolf Serkin - Piano
Benita Valente - Soprano
Harold Wright - Clarinet

I backed up the recording a couple of times to make sure what I was hearing.  Keep in mind that I have listened to this recording many times over the last 35 years either on vinyl or CD or ripped to my hard drive.  Last night, I actually heard Rudolf Serkin grunting/humming during this performance.  I really don't give a shit like some people do when it comes to hearing every little thing on the recording  However, I found this kind of cool that I was hearing stuff that everyone in the audience probably heard during the live performance but not necessarily on the recording.

I also heard a better layering of the different instruments in orchestral pieces.  I was very impressed how the NCores not only had the ability to separate various instruments but how they made my TRT’s image.  Having played in and listened to countless live performances of symphony orchestras, I was impressed with the NCore’s ability to place the instruments in their proper location.

Silence is an important part of any musical composition whether it is classical, jazz, rock, choral, etc.  In the NCore’s case, “silence is golden”.  I was quite taken with the utterly black background during these silent moments.  No hum at all…just silence.

As I stated previously, timbre and tone are on the top of my requirements.  I also want some “warmth” to the sound.  I love my tubes but I have to say that the NCores were able to combine the warmth of tubes with a very good lower frequency sound.  The bass was never non-descript nor was it “flabby”.  It was tuneful and very well controlled but at the same time could be quite visceral when called upon.

I am firmly convinced that even the most efficient speakers can benefit from more headroom.  The NCore’s delivered this in spades.  With my Selah TRT’s there was headroom to spare.

I delivered Jason’s NCores up to TedB on Friday.  Let me say that Ted has done a marvelous job assembling what I must say is the most impressive system I have yet encountered in a private home setting.  His SP Tech Revelation MR-I Mark 4’s combined with Modwright KWA-150 monoblocks were not only beautiful to behold, they were beautiful to listen to!!  Ted is accurate in stating in a previous post that I did turn around from the vaunted listening chair to say “What the frick (not the correct spelling…) are you screwing around for!  Just send the NCores to the next person on the list.”  The imaging was unlike anything I had ever heard.  It was obvious that Ted has taken great pains at not only acquiring SOTA gear but spending a ton of time with room treatments.  What he has been able to achieve sonically, especially with Jeff Hedback’s help is truly wonderful.

After we inserted the NCores into Ted’s system and started our listening, we all agreed that the Revelation speakers sounded a bit more forward with the KWA150 monos.  I differ somewhat with Ted’s “5th row center” explanation in regards to the KWA’s as opposed to “farther out in the hall” with the NCores.  I know what Ted is trying to explain.  I just see it a bit differently.  Let me try and explain this…

I have had the pleasure of playing in and listening to concerts in Carnegie Hall, the Academy of Music(Philadelphia Orchestra) and Severence Hall(Cleveland) and the most expensive seats do not equate to being the "best" seats.  Maybe visually but certainly not from a listening stand point.  The best seats usually are on the lower floor towards the back and perhaps the lower balcony seats.  So in trying to explain myself, when I listen to recordings, I do not want to be in the front row or even the 5th or 6th row... I want to be in the row where the music has had a chance to grow into the complete product.  I want to be in the row where the hall (if any good) has had a chance to do its magic on the sound being produced by perfoming ensemble.  In this regards, the NCores stood “toe to toe” with the KWA-150 monos.  For me it wasn’t which row you were in but rather having “the best seat in the house”.

Let me make my position abundantly clear.  This is NOT a case where the NCores are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they are trashing amps that are multiples in price.  It is a different presentation and the fact that these pygmy amps are in the same discussion as such luminary names such as Atma-spheres, Modwright mono-blocks, Lamm, etc is a testament to the Dutch design team behind the NCores.

I am fortunate that I am in a position to buy (which I did) two NCores along with two SMPS 400 PS’s and keep my current tube amp.  I want to live with them both for a while.  The NS-60 SE has many very good qualities.  However, this post is not what the NS-60 SE can’t do but how the NCores have totally changed what I have thought about Class D amps and their ability to just “get it right” sound-wise and imaging-wise.

Thanks to Jason for allowing me to be part of this listening tour.  It sure was an eye opener for sure.

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SlushPuppy on 29 May 2012, 05:05 pm
Ted, thanks for the review.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 May 2012, 05:18 pm
Phenomenal review Randy. What a great and unique perspective, especially from a classically trained musician who is still playing. That's revelatory. I watched Amadeus last night in your honor.  :P

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 29 May 2012, 05:20 pm
Bravo to both Randy and Ted for such well written and helpful reviews.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 29 May 2012, 05:20 pm
Randy, great synopsis!  After reading your explanation of my "5th row center" idea I have to agree that it doesn't explain the differences as well as your experienced perspective does.  And it is an analogy that is easier to visualize, especially given the rooms effects, etc. 

One small but important aspect of the NCores that I forgot to add: their use as space heaters.  Nothing close to my Modwrights; they wipe the floor with the NCores.  :)  A real plus in the Midwestern winters.......in the dog days of May (94 here yesterday)???  Not so much!!   :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 29 May 2012, 05:23 pm
Ted and Randy,

Thanks both for the very good reviews based on careful listening and honest evaluations.  I have my modules and ps's, but no chassis or parts.  I'm very much looking forward to developing my own opinions, and you've given me plenty of actual variables to think about in the meantime.  Great stuff :thumb:   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 29 May 2012, 05:25 pm
Quote
Phenomenal review Randy. What a great and unique perspective, especially from a classically trained musician who is still playing. That's revelatory. I watched Amadeus last night in your honor. 

Anand.

I was also watching an "artsy movie".  Keven Costner in the "Hatfields & McCoys".  :lol:

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 29 May 2012, 05:29 pm
Really nice write ups from Ted and Randy. I was very interested in both, having spent some time with an early version of the MW, which Ted assures me is not even close to the version he has and for Randy's perspective as he visited me last year or the year before and his insight from playing in the orchestra are very valuable.

One small but important aspect of the NCores that I forgot to add: their use as space heaters.  Nothing close to my Modwrights; they wipe the floor with the NCores.  :)  A real plus in the Midwestern winters.......in the dog days of May (94 here yesterday)???  Not so much!!   :D

Funny you should mention that. I carted my pair over to a friends yesterday. He has a small room and runs a pair of Jolida Music Envoy, 200W 211 based tube amps, those things are small furnaces. He specifically commented on how nice it was not to be baking after a few hours of listening. ;)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 29 May 2012, 05:39 pm
...Let me make my position abundantly clear.  This is NOT a case where the NCores are the greatest thing since sliced bread and that they are trashing amps that are multiples in price.  It is a different presentation and the fact that these pygmy amps are in the same discussion as such luminary names such as Atma-spheres, Modwright mono-blocks, Lamm, etc is a testament to the Dutch design team behind the NCores.

I am fortunate that I am in a position to buy (which I did) two NCores along with two SMPS 400 PS’s and keep my current tube amp.  I want to live with them both for a while.  The NS-60 SE has many very good qualities.  However, this post is not what the NS-60 SE can’t do but how the NCores have totally changed what I have thought about Class D amps and their ability to just “get it right” sound-wise and imaging-wise.

Thanks to Jason for allowing me to be part of this listening tour.  It sure was an eye opener for sure.

Regards,

Randy

Great write-up Randy - especially the paragraphs I kept above.

While I truly loved what the NCore amps did in my system (enough that I bought a pair), I am waiting to have them back in my system  for an extended period before deciding on whether I sell my Atma-Sphere MA-1's or keep both sets of amps.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 29 May 2012, 05:42 pm
Great review Ted. I'm just happy that they stood with the likes of the Modwright KWA-150's. That's high praise in and of itself. Beating those amps wasn't the issue. But matching or nearly matching them in speed, finesse, soundstaging, etc...is a tremendous achievement given the incredibly low cost of entry.

Anand.

+1 on a great review Ted.

Well written and well balanced.

I need to get back out to your place and here your setup.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 29 May 2012, 06:07 pm
Ted and Randy,

Thanks for taking the time and effort to capture all this in a way I certainly couldn't in my own writings. These are both unique perspectives that have added a lot to the discussion.

Tom
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: fridays on 29 May 2012, 07:48 pm
So the only way I can get one of these is to build it,  :(

I don't soldier well 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 29 May 2012, 07:51 pm
Ted and Randy, this is the kind of stuff I'd pay a subscription for. Thanks for the remarkably well written reviews! :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjock3 on 29 May 2012, 09:36 pm
+1  :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: golfugh on 29 May 2012, 09:57 pm
Ted/Randy
Great info, thanks for the thoughtful and balanced words.
Mark
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: GS on 29 May 2012, 10:12 pm
 :D :D :D :D
Boys (Ted en Randy) these observation is what it makes so valuable.
And yes the Ncores in bridged mode will kick ass.
Jerry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 30 May 2012, 06:56 pm
Ted and Randy, what great "frickin" reviews. The two of you have just about covered all aspects of what I and my group heard. Randy. I hear you, he,he, pun intended, as to the dead silence of the Ncore. Until you do not hear this amp all other times that description has been used to describe other amps needs to be updated.  There is NO NOISE as this amp plays music. And that was all six of us who heard it in my system, in our HO.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore USA Tour 2012 ***(This tour has been filled)***
Post by: Paul427 on 1 Jun 2012, 11:11 am
Just a quick interim report:

I have received and hooked up the ncores.  I join all the other grateful audiophiles on the tour in expressing my thanks to Jason for his generosity and good nature in allowing us to audition this new technology.

My system consists of a macbook air playing itunes front end; bel canto dac 1.5 taking the usb output from the mac; and Mark & Daniel Ruby speakers.  The ncores are being tested in place of a bel canto s300iu integrated amp.  So far, my impressions are very favorable:  although I have always thought the bel canto amp had superb detail and articulation, the ncores may even be slightly better in this regard, and are slightly more "open", "natural," and "relaxed."   I put those words in quotes because it is hard to describe exactly what the difference is, but all those descriptions seem to fit.  Also, the ncores seem to have a slightly more extended top end--the high frequencies come through better.  So far, the differences are not profound, but they are noticeable in my system.

I will give more detailed descriptions of equipment and software used, background, and listening impressions over the weekend, but I thought everyone who follows this thread might be interested in these quick initial impressions.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Jun 2012, 01:39 pm
Paul427,

What are you usng for volume control?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 1 Jun 2012, 02:03 pm

Probably his Mac. Or the volume control in I-tunes.

Myself, I run I-tunes full volume and use the Mac keyboard volume. Only issue, besides digital volume controls, is each keyboard click must be close to 3 db. So it's a more course adjustment than I like.

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Paul427 on 1 Jun 2012, 02:39 pm
The bel canto dac 1.5 has its own volume control--very handy if you want to run it directly into any power amp.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 1 Jun 2012, 02:52 pm
The bel canto dac 1.5 has its own volume control--very handy if you want to run it directly into any power amp.

My, that is handy.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Paul427 on 3 Jun 2012, 07:08 pm
Well, I’ve had my three days with the ncores, I’ve listened to a lot of different types of music, and my conclusion is that these little amps are incredible! 

To backtrack a little, I’ve been an on-again off-again audiophile for the better part of thirty years.  I started with a solid state adcom amp, moved to mid-level luxman amplification, and then on to the audio research classic 60 and the warm glow of tubes.  I’ve had tangent speakers, spendor, omega, and martin logan aerius.  Sources have included a vpi turntable as well as various cd-players.  See my previous post from Thursday for my current set-up, which emphasizes simplicity and compactness.

Although I’ve heard other great and even state-of-the art systems at shows and dealers, I’ve never been tempted to spend the kind of big bucks required for an all-out assault on the state of the art.  I’ve always looked for good value.

These little mono do-it-yourself amps are probably the most value for the buck I’ve ever encountered.  I thought my bel canto integrated was highly detailed and revealing, and it certainly seemed so compared to the vintage audio research amp it replaced.  But I am hearing more nuance and subtle detail than I have ever heard before.  On top of that, it is all presented in a more natural and more realistic way—no electronic veiling, no digititis, no listener fatigue.

I listened to a lot of well recorded audiophile favorites—Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat, Jazz at the Pawnshop, the Chesky John Pizarelli  My Blue Heaven, the Dorian Sampler Volume 2 among them.  I also listened to HD tracks high res version of Paul McCartney’s Band on the Run.  I also listened to lots of other recordings I have heard many times over the years, such as Mozart Horn Concertos, Dire Straits Bonnie Raitt and Sting albums, and even recent Cold Play, Rihanna and Adele, some of the latter on the MOG service.  Incredibly, even the relatively low -sample rate music on MOG sounded better than I had ever heard it (on MOG).  Most of the source material was played from a macbook air through my dac, but some was played through a squeezebox (original) with the digital signal taken through my dac.

All the music I played seemed to be more present in the room, with better front to back layering.  The instruments and voices had good body and were fully fleshed out.  Complex musical passages and loud crescendos did not overwhelm the system or result in any congealing of the sound  (and this is with my extremely inefficient and power hungry small speakers).  Micro-dynamics were better, allowing you to notice the small changes in volume and energy that makes music so vital.  I did notice a slight tendency toward sibilance in some recordings—but I have no idea whether that is  because of the source,  because of the dac, or because of the amps.  High end: clear and clean.  Midrange: full of body and life.  Bass—solid.

Bottom line—the best amplification and the best music reproduction I have ever heard in my system.  Period.   A very exciting time to be an audiophile!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 3 Jun 2012, 07:16 pm
Nice review Paul.  Glad they arrived safe and sound....and then sounded great in your system. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 3 Jun 2012, 07:28 pm
I'm very intrested in these amps, they are effecient, it is the future. They would do nice for multichannel to. Though, if i would buy a multichannel amp rightnow i'm not sure i would go the Hypex ncore route or buy me a Earthquakesound Cinénova Grande 7. Not as effecient as class D but a beast of an amp. Reviewers say the Cinénova Grande sounds large but it can also be subtle. And with the cinénova there is also the possibility to request 2 of it's channel to produce class A. Very tempting if you ask me. Did someone had the opportunity to hear an Earthquake Cinenova amp by any chance??
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 3 Jun 2012, 10:06 pm
Thanks for the review, Paul. I quite enjoy reading about the different personal history, system changes, and how the NCores stack up.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 5 Jun 2012, 12:36 pm
I wait for my Ncore order to arrive.
George
Did you get them yet?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 5 Jun 2012, 01:57 pm
Nice review Paul.  My Ncore modules arrived last week and my RE2207 cases arrived yesterday.  I am waiting on my other parts and pieces to arrive so I can assemble these mighty mites.  :thumb:

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Jun 2012, 12:25 pm
The last member to have the amps said he should have his thoughts up soon.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rob S. on 13 Jun 2012, 01:59 am
I just shipped these back to Jason, and wanted to post my thoughts on my time with the little lightweight wonder amps.  I have to confess, I've been intrigued with the buzz from these amps and really didn't think they would deliver the sound that people have raved about.  Thanks to Jason for squeezing me into the tour.

I have an active three way speaker setup with a custom Selah floorstander, DEQX doing XO work, and atma sphere amps .  And really I need 4 channels of the NCore amps to really make my scenario work.  However, I've got some Selah bookshelf speakers , MF7 to use for this audition.  I've heard these bookshelfs with Odyssey amps,  Butler amps, Arcam receiver, Music Reference RM200, Atma sphere M60's mk2.2, atma sphere S30 w/ speltz autoformers.   I found the Ncores to be delightful.  Mostly on par with the atma sphere amps I own, more listening and A/B will determine my final thoughts( I did not do direct comparisons with the AS amps, my weekend with them was very very busy and time flew by)  I do know this.....  when you consider the increase in power, lower noise, lower power consumption, less heat, and I'm ready for more time with the amps.
 
Here's some of the music I listened to:
Edgar Meyer- uncommon ritual
Ny audio Rave '07, '08 demo discs
Sara K  - waterfalls
Damien Rice- O
Chris Whitley
Carla Bley, Red Horse, Herbie Hancock, Freddie Hubbard all on vinyl.

I did not hear anything that I could nitpick about these amps.  Power/ control on the low end, they drove the hell out of the little MF7 bookshelfs, and they held together better than they had any right to.  The Ncore were detailed and musical, and had a top end that was very nice. delicate and slightly rolled off on the digital ( but that might just be the dome tweeter in the Seas, I'll know more about the results with the Raal tweeter on my floorstanders when i build a pair.)  Mid range was very good too.  Sara K's voice was chesty and robust.  stringed instruments had detail, brass and trombones tone was very good, nice bite but not overly aggressive.  I found these non fatiguing.  Definitely great amps!!

Rob S.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Jun 2012, 03:11 am
I would hope these amps don't have a rolled off top end.
Others?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 13 Jun 2012, 03:21 am
I would hope these amps don't have a rolled off top end.
Others?

I didn't get that impression in any of the systems that I'd heard them in.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Jun 2012, 03:46 am
Good!
That's a relief - thanks Barry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rob S. on 13 Jun 2012, 03:02 pm
As far as my  rolled off comment goes, I found it to do justice to all my digital music, it made all those highs less pronounced ( when comparing to other SS amps).  Less fake fizzle and more natural refined highs is what I hear.   Words describing what I hear is not my forte.

Rob S.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 13 Jun 2012, 04:15 pm
Not sure if this is the right thread, as I'm not on the tour.  However, I finally have my monoblocks fully assembled as of late last night.  I was able to put in about an hour of listening.  My room arrangements have been moved around a lot in the last month or so, and my system is still not fully dialed in with the new arrangement.  I will probably want to go back to the better acoustic arrangement in the future, despite the more "social" arrangement I have right now.  Basically, I went from short-wall with symmetry and speakers out from walls to a long-wall arrangement with speakers closer to back wall but far from sidewalls.  Expectedly, I'm having bass issues with my seating position too close to rear long-wall.  Just thought I'd give a sense of what I'm dealing with as context.

Amps I have in house and have listened to quite a bit in the last year: Dayens Ampino, Onix SP3 MkII, modded Miniwatt S1.  The rest of the system is comprised of MacMini 2010 w/SSD, DB Audio Tranquility SE, HornShoppe The Truth pre-buffer, and Tekton Lore speakers (98db, 30-30K in-room response).

I've been listening to the Ampino since the weather shifted a couple months ago and tubes didn't make much sense given the heat.  It has a light, detailed, and somewhat sweet sound.  My amp evolution went from Red Wine 30.2 (original, not LFP-V) to Wyred ICE monoblocks to the Miniwatt on Omega speakers and then Hornshoppe Horns, and finally to the Ampino on the same Horns.  A strange evolution, to be sure, but I found the Ampino to be a huge step up and had a great balance of detail and sweetness, but not as much tonal depth as I craved.  The Onix recently has been a tube exploration for me, and it definitely has more tonal richness along with lots more punch to the sound.  However, over time, I felt like that punch and the tube effects diminished the light microdynamic details I really like a lot.  The punch was also sometimes too much on my high efficiency and dynamic speakers.

Enter the NCore.  With my brief listening so far, and in a non-ideal system at the moment, I think I was hearing a lot of the qualities others have cited.  There was more depth of soundstage, and in a speaker position right now that presents significant headwinds in this dimension.  I also heard a naturalness to instruments that bested the Ampino.  I would not call the amps heavy on "air", but not lacking either.  The air that was there and presented had more resolution to it and wasn't just "air", but really gave better sense of depth into the recording, the venue, whatever.  I wouldn't call it recessed treble, just more of a three dimensional sound.  But the instruments did seem to have more character.  It does seem to add tonal richness and body to instruments above the Ampino, but without any diminished resolution of details (one of the Ampino's biggest strengths).  Finally, the bass seemed weightier than with the Ampino, allowing me to run without my subwoofer with EQ and feel like I wasn't missing much.  In my problematic bass situation, I did feel like the control over the bass was better and able to mitigate some of the boominess and one-note bass I have going on. 

Of course, with only about an hour of listening, these are only very initial impressions.  I'm quite curious to listen more for dynamics as time moves on.  Dynamics are very important to me, and it might be that these are great in every dimension, but not as dramatic with dynamics as what I have enjoyed from other amps.  Or maybe they'll excel there as well.  The great thing about dynamics is that I have options elsewhere.  I could go to a true preamp instead of my current buffer if I wanted more dynamics.  I also am aware of an upgrade to the Tranquility SE output stage that improves dynamics, and I need to send that in to the shop for the upgrade. 

All in all, it was a very promising start last night, and I'm really happy to have successfully pulled off my first somewhat DIY amp project.   :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Jun 2012, 05:21 pm
genjamon,

Thanks for those impressions.

Impressive that the ncore pairs so well with such efficient speakers. With those Lores do you hear anything with your ear up to the speaker cone, with the ncore turned on but no music playing?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhakti on 13 Jun 2012, 05:27 pm
Thanks for the writeup genjamon!

I'm curious if you allowed the amps any breakin time?  Not sure if this is an issue with these or not.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 13 Jun 2012, 05:40 pm
Thanks guys.

My impressions were from stone cold right after finishing soldering and hooking them up to my system. I don't even have the cases fully assembled! Not sure if that means I'm probably not fully benefiting from emi/rf elimination from the case yet.

I do hear a little static and tiny tiny bit of hum with my ear right next to the woofers and tweeters. When I mute using the ampon switch I installed, I hear nothing. It's significantly quieter than my Ampino, though, which is in turn quieter than the Onix or the Miniwatt. I have to put my ear right next to the drivers to hear it.

I have them straight into my wall, and not on a dedicated line or anything. I have minimal power management in my system.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 13 Jun 2012, 05:45 pm
Thanks guys.

My impressions were from stone cold right after finishing soldering and hooking them up to my system. I don't even have the cases fully assembled! Not sure if that means I'm probably not fully benefiting from emi/rf elimination from the case yet.

I do hear a little static and tiny tiny bit of hum with my ear right next to the woofers and tweeters. When I mute using the ampon switch I installed, I hear nothing. It's significantly quieter than my Ampino, though, which is in turn quieter than the Onix or the Miniwatt. I have to put my ear right next to the drivers to hear it.

I have them straight into my wall, and not on a dedicated line or anything. I have minimal power management in my system.

The fact that the small amount 'static' and the tiny tiny tiny bit of 'hum' that you hear from 98dB efficient speakers is great but do keep in mind that what you hear may be what is amplified from the source end, i.e. the Truth tube buffer. Just a thought. Note how you thought that the Onix was quieter than the Miniwatt and that the Ampino was quieter than the Onix and now the NCore is quieter than the Ampino.

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 13 Jun 2012, 05:49 pm
Yes, very impressive that you have such little noise from the amp into such efficient speakers. To test Anand's theory that the preamp may be contributing, easy enough to disconnect the preamp.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Emile on 13 Jun 2012, 07:57 pm
I would hope these amps don't have a rolled off top end.
Others?

Nah the supplied shielded mogami lead sounds slightly closed up on top, just change for something else if it bothers you.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Jun 2012, 09:49 pm
Emile,
shielded mogami lead - is that supplied with the NCore modules?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 13 Jun 2012, 09:49 pm
Emile,
shielded mogami lead - is that supplied with the NCore modules?

Yes
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 13 Jun 2012, 10:04 pm
Yes

And it's already plugged into their connector.  They say what kind of connector it is, but I would be vary wary given my particular skill level with DIY trying to re-wire a new lead to that kind of connector.  It might be easier than it looks to my untrained eye, but might not be for the novice.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Jun 2012, 11:51 pm
Well I am in the novice category, so I think I'll leave well enough alone.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 14 Jun 2012, 12:48 am
Well I am in the novice category, so I think I'll leave well enough alone.

Not just you, but a bunch of advanced diy hobbyists are doing the same. When it sounds in the uber category and it a'int broken well...

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 14 Jun 2012, 01:43 am
Well I am in the novice category, so I think I'll leave well enough alone.

You can see all the wires in this post:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.msg1087126#msg1087126
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 14 Jun 2012, 05:51 pm
Did you get them yet?

No.

Turned out that there were logistical issues and I need to re-order them.  Hopefully it won't take too long.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 14 Jun 2012, 06:07 pm
I removed all inputs to test the noise. With no inputs, there was a little hiss from the tweeter still, but nothing at all from the woofer. Only the slightest hiss with my ear right next to the tweeter.

With DAC connected directly to amps, but nothing playing, the woofer hum and tweeter buzz was way louder. I believe the noise is coming from the DAC. It is attenuated with the preamp to a very minor level that is not audible from listening position.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Jun 2012, 06:38 pm
I removed all inputs to test the noise. With no inputs, there was a little hiss from the tweeter still, but nothing at all from the woofer. Only the slightest hiss with my ear right next to the tweeter.

With DAC connected directly to amps, but nothing playing, the woofer hum and tweeter buzz was way louder. I believe the noise is coming from the DAC. It is attenuated with the preamp to a very minor level that is not audible from listening position.

Thanks for that update.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 14 Jun 2012, 08:01 pm
I removed all inputs to test the noise. With no inputs, there was a little hiss from the tweeter still, but nothing at all from the woofer. Only the slightest hiss with my ear right next to the tweeter.

With DAC connected directly to amps, but nothing playing, the woofer hum and tweeter buzz was way louder. I believe the noise is coming from the DAC. It is attenuated with the preamp to a very minor level that is not audible from listening position.

Wow. Thanks for the update. I am surprised given the pedigree of your dac. Did you have the volume all the way down or up on your preamp when you tested it with the preamp?

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 14 Jun 2012, 08:30 pm
Well, they do say amps of this caliber expose your upstream... looks like this is an example! I'm praying my gear will be good enough.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 14 Jun 2012, 08:51 pm
But lets also remember that this is with ear to speaker, and a mighty efficient speaker at that.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 14 Jun 2012, 09:57 pm
My tranquility SE is from late 2010, with no servicing since that time. Manufacturer does offer a small cost output stage upgrade, and I'm interested in trying that. I also wonder if it isn't the power, as I'm not using much power conditioning, and what I am using is possibly doing as much harm as good.

Yes, the preamp attenuates the noise. My initial noise comments were based on a preamp volume for a reasonable music listening volume - high 70's or low 80's db average volume. That's what I was listening at before I put my head up to the drivers.

Anyway, the NCores on their own are very very quiet.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ChrisPa on 14 Jun 2012, 11:05 pm
As far as my  rolled off comment goes, I found it to do justice to all my digital music, it made all those highs less pronounced ( when comparing to other SS amps).  Less fake fizzle and more natural refined highs is what I hear.   Words describing what I hear is not my forte.

Rob S.

My feeling is that these amps have such low hf distortion/IM distortion that they don't artificially accentuate the treble - which is as you described. If they are put into a system which has been tuned to control extreme treble then they may sound a little 'rolled off'. Really they're just 'clean'
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 17 Jun 2012, 06:26 am
First I would like to apologize for taking so long to post my listening impressions of Jason's Ncore amps. I had the chance to hear the amps in several other systems and my own. Unfortunately just for a few hours in each system. The systems and the impressions are as follows.

1) Letitroll98: Dan was gracious in allowing myself, fellow audiophile and friend Kevin, and Barry to hear the amps in his system.
2) Barry_NJ: Barry was very gracious for inviting Kevin and I to hear them at his house that same night.
3) Occam: Paul was extremely gracious for allowing Barry, Kevin and I to hear the amps at his house.
4) mjosef: And Martin went out of his way by allowing me the chance to hear the amps in my system.
5) hifial: Finally my system; my system is as follows: Speakers: B&W 802D (first generation)-Amps: Nuforce Reference 18 Mono Blocks-Source: PS Audio Perfectwave Transport and computer based music server by I2S and Ethernet cables to PS Audio Perfectwave Bridge-Preamp: PS Audio Perfectwave DAC MK II- Cables: Synergistic Research Galileo Universal Interconnect (balanced) and Speaker (bi-wired) Cells with Basik Cables-Vibration Control: Finite Elemente Ceraball MKII (amps) and Cerapuc (DAC +Transport + power conditioning)-Power Conditioning: Synergistic Research Power Cell 10 SE MK II with Tesla SE Precision AC power cord.

Now for some reason the Nuforce and my Synergistic cabling was not playing nice so I had a fellow Club member, Igor Kuznetsoff of K Works, who does audio design and consulting work and builds some great cabling, bring over some of his. Unfortunately I forgot to tell him to bring bi-wire speaker cables. So we bridged the B&W's posts and used Igor's for the balanced interconnect too.

First, I MUST STRESS that the Ncore sounded BETTER STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL!! In some cases MUCH BETTER, but always better. Now maybe there is a power conditioner out there that MIGHT improve the sound of the Ncore but COMPARE to make sure. As it sounded better into the wall at Paul's, then it will most likely sound better into the wall every time. The sound got closed in, got a little bright, noise was added in degrees from system to system. I did not bother trying it with my power conditioner but I wish I had the time to compare.

I am not going to describe what I heard in each individual system but rather the overall change, both +/-, if any, in varying degrees.

I have been trying to come up with one word that describes the Ncore. It has been difficult, at least for me. If I say it sounds CLEAN, someone might also think sterile, and it is NOT. Or someone might think bright and again it is NOT. If I say distortion-less. That might cover it but it has so much more. So in a few words; Clean, no distortion and I mean the least of any amp I have ever heard, musically engaging, natural tone and harmonics, fast transients, dynamic, to the point were you can turn the volume way down and still hear the WHOLE MUSIC, it does not close in at any volume, loud or soft, and I can not think of any amp I have heard that can do the whole volume range and not distort in some way. Did I say it has no DISTORTION. It really lets the music flow and be music. Does this mean that a bad recording will sound awful? Not really, for I heard bad recordings sound better. The Ncore's also separate the mass of instruments in an orchestra and a band in a very natural way. Some amps "rip" the instruments in a wide unnatural way while others, just a solid mass. And this was under not ideal conditions in any of the systems that I heard them in. The first and foremost was plugging them straight into the wall. At Barry's he had to use a three receptacle extension cord (12 gauge, 3 conductor, no switches, fuses or filters). Now Barry my disagree with me but I believe if he could have plugged  them straight into the wall it would have made an improvement. We also found out later at my house that when we tried the Finite Elemente Ceraball footers it made an improvement. Also after market power cords. On my system the B&W 802D's love to be bi-wired and we had to use the jumpers in order to use the cables Igor brought. I did not realize it till it was to late but we could have used my Synergistic which are bi-wire. I had mismatched power cords. And we used the footers near the end of the listen. Yet these amps held their own and then some. Treble was extended but not bright, harsh, brittle or dry and tonally correct . Base was deep, tight, controlled and tonally correct. Mids were just, right, like the treble and base. The sound stage is wide and deep but not in your face or up on stage with the musicians. In fact I think some might mistake this and think the sound stage is not as deep and wide. But over time they might see the difference for what it is. When you are at a live performance you are best not in your face or on stage to hear the music at its best. You can hear so much detail that you missed before because they are so QUITE. A lot of amps can emphasis one thing or another but the Ncore is evenhanded from top to bottom. Paul played a track, which I can not remember the name, of which it had a instrument that Paul said is very difficult to reproduce in a lifelike way. I wish Paul would comment on that track and how well the Ncore did once he got his speakers fixed.   

I love how some people are comparing them to used amps that when new, cost in todays dollars, significantly more then these amps. Lets say these amps cost $1,600 to $1,700, with everything, as monos. You would need to spend from 4 to 7 times that on a new amp that could compete IMHO. And I think in most cases these amps win.

Now as good as these amps are not everyone will enjoy the sound they DO NOT MAKE. Which is fine. Like styles of music, some people like jazz and others like country. 

I think I have come up with one word to describe the Ncore amps. TRUTHFUL. And like the truth, some people "can't handle the truth". I can not wait to hear the NC1200 and see what that can bring over the NC400.

Well that is it for now. If I remember or think of anything else I will post it.

 

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 17 Jun 2012, 06:52 am

 Nice review. bruno has hinted recently that really the NC400 isn't giving anything up, other than some watts, compared to the nc1200. In fact, it might be the other way around, but he said he doesn't prefer one over the other.

 Also astonishing is the oft repeated fact: you do not need power conditioning, in fact power conditioning worsens the sound. that's amazing.

 Two birds, one stone.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 17 Jun 2012, 01:11 pm
One small correction Al, the extension cord we used at my place was not a 'power strip'. Just a 12 gauge, 3 conductor, 3 receptacle, extension cord, with no switches, fuses, or other circuitry. And yes I agree, eliminating it very well could have improved the sound another degree ;)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 17 Jun 2012, 01:31 pm
Hi Barry. Yes, that is why I put "type". I will put the specific type in its place. By the way, Could you tell me the name of the Johnny Cash CD we listened to that night? It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 17 Jun 2012, 01:59 pm
Al, the disc was: Johnny Cash "American 4: The Man Comes Around"

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vQR627NAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/American-4-Man-Comes-Around/dp/B004GHBQCE/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1339942287&sr=1-3&keywords=johnny+cash)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 17 Jun 2012, 02:24 pm
Thanks Barry and thank you for giving me the correct type of extension cord.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 21 Jun 2012, 04:26 pm
......
 A lot of amps can emphasis one thing or another but the Ncore is evenhanded from top to bottom. Paul played a track, which I can not remember the name, of which it had a instrument that Paul said is very difficult to reproduce in a lifelike way. I wish Paul would comment on that track and how well the Ncore did once he got his speakers fixed.   
.....
I think that track was from Balkan Beat Box's 'Nu Med' album, specifically track 4- BBBeat, the glory and terror of a Turkish Jannisairy Military Marching Drum, Cymbal, Bell and Oud band bearing down on you shouldn't be missed. IMO, the hardest thing to get right in a recording is the sound of multiple small bells and tambourines. Or it could have been Herbie Hancock's Watermellon Man, with it well recorded tambourine throughout. The attack and decay of  'sleigh' bells and tambourine make strong demands on phase and harmonic presentation. To be honest, I'm unsure how much this is a test of amplifier quality rather than cabling, connectors and vibration isolation. Regardless, IMO, a system can be evaluated on a macro level on its ability to play loud coherently 'its got a good beat and you can dance to it' and on a micro level, do tambourines and sleigh bells sound like real tambourines and sleigh bells...

FWIW,
Paul
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 21 Jun 2012, 06:05 pm
Thanks Paul. I believe it was Balkan beat box and track 4. After you had a chance to "repair" your speakers, IYHI, how well did, did not, the Ncore do at playing back that part of the track?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 21 Jun 2012, 11:51 pm
Hey Al,

 Once the system was 'sorted out' the Ncore was the equal of my beloved Aksa LifeForce amp (but substantially quieter and more authoritative). It was specifically both amps inability to realistically reproduce the bells and tambourines [actually, the compromised imaging was the major indicator of the problem] that convinced my how badly I'd bollixed up my Marten speakers. Prior to my fixing the speakers, neither amp really could, IMO, properly reproduce that percussive tonality. Frankly, I don't think this task is particularly difficult for a competently implemented amp, but its actually quite hard for cabling and speakers.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Geardaddy on 22 Jun 2012, 12:01 pm

On a purely personal level, I am not going to replace my Modwrights with the NCores, based on this wonderfully generous evaluation from Jason (and taking eval time away from generous Randy).  As I said, these mighty mites did almost everything I needed, but what they failed to bring to my ears was a deal-breaker of sorts, albeit small in perspective.   I am used to the possibly-artificial-but-nonetheless-important air and presence that my KWA-150’s impart.  A sort of dynamic that, given the right recording, makes a Marshall amp sound like it is in the room and electrifying the air.  The NCores make it sound like I am listening to that recording perfectly; the KWA’s make it sound like the recording is happening in my room. 

This is an important point Ted.  Vibratory energy or "presence" or "breath of life" is essential, and its reproduction separates good from great gear.  I have made this argument in the context of tube (particularly SET) vs SS amplification.  Some SS amps can do it.  Some big push pull tube amps can (TRL). 

The technical reasons for this are probably worth fleshing out. Is it really because the SPs are a hard load?

Another forgotten variable contributing to this phenomenon is the room.  A well engineered room can potentially provide the same experience.  I am learning this in real time.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: richidoo on 22 Jun 2012, 12:30 pm
I've had Jason's other pair of N-Cores for a couple days. Not the tour pair you guys are listening to, but I assume they are the same construction. I listened with my Buffalo2 transformer coupled, volume controlled DAC direct to the amps, playing through two different speakers. I used Black Sands Silver V power cords on the amps in a dedicated 20A circuit.

Listening to them on a pair of newish (50 hours) Polk LSiM 707 4 way towers I found the amps to really bring the speakers to life compared to a diy 100W linear SS amp and a 100W AR tube amp. The low output impedance of the NCore is easily heard across the entire bandwidth. Of course bass is much clearer, punchier. The smaller amp allowed the ports to ring too much, the ports sounded separate from the direct sound and distracting sometimes with tendency to ring at their resonance. The NCore controls the bass drivers so well that no port antics are permitted. Bass is tuneful and controlled at all frequencies. The 60W amp thermal protected out while playing loud bass heavy song at the high levels these speakers can deliver. The NCores had no problem. Dance music makes a godalmighty powerful beat. Unbelievable from these little plastic drivers.

Midrange is also more detailed. Tonal texture is abundant. Solo cello, piano, voice, trumpet, are exquisitely detailed. The drivers are forced to comply with no mercy. Treble is clear, clean and very powerful, but no artifacts as I've heard in other class Ds. There is no trace of the high feedback stuffiness from opamps used in the Hypex UcD inputs. It reminded me of the Spectron in clarity, but without the quirks and I didn't sense the high frequency "thing" that I have heard Spectron do. I love how quiet these amps are, and small and light.

This is definitely not an amp to relax with a glass of cognac and a pipe while Perry Como sings in the background. They will force your speakers to reveal flaws in the system and rub your face in it. But I found it more enjoyable listening to the ultra confident NCores and the flaws they expose than using lesser amps that conceal flaws better but sound wimpier. They deserve very high quality source signal and speakers.

With these amps available now, I would consider owning lower sensitivity speakers like Revel Studio2, or even panels. They can force a lower sensitivity speaker to make the same kind of detail and control that lesser amps will require easier speakers to achieve. I look forward to hearing the NCores on higher sensitivity speakers too.
Thanks for the audition Jason!  See you tomorrow.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jun 2012, 01:05 pm
I've had Jason's other pair of N-Cores for a couple days. Not the tour pair you guys are listening to, but I assume they are the same construction.
Yes, they're identical with the same parts used.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: richidoo on 22 Jun 2012, 03:14 pm
Now I'm playing them on souped up econowaves with AE woofer and Radian 475PM CD on QSC horn, 94dBSPL. Still no trace of harshness. Can even hear the grain of tape hiss.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Jun 2012, 03:16 pm
Now I'm playing them on souped up econowaves with AE woofer and Radian 475PM CD on QSC horn, 94dBSPL. Still no trace of harshness. Can even hear the grain of tape hiss.

Have fun tomorrow at your GTG.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 22 Jun 2012, 03:22 pm
i would love to see the results of ted doing a properly controlled blind a-b test of the ncore amps and the modwright amps in his system.   8)

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 22 Jun 2012, 03:27 pm
i would love to see the results of ted doing a properly controlled blind a-b test of the ncore amps and the modwright amps in his system.   8)

doug s.

I'll have my pair (not tour pair) of fully assembled amps middle of next week.  I am sure I could loan them to Ted at some point if he is interested.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Geardaddy on 22 Jun 2012, 09:47 pm
i would love to see the results of ted doing a properly controlled blind a-b test of the ncore amps and the modwright amps in his system.   8)

doug s.

Lol.  Need to press rewind on the tour.  The burning question is whether anyone could tell the difference between Ncore and previous generations of digital amplification in a blinded listening session....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 22 Jun 2012, 10:08 pm
All indications would suggest yes. IIRC there are a number of comparisons made between ncore and the previous Hypex models on the diyaudio megathread.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 22 Jun 2012, 11:56 pm
And there have been comparisons to Nuforce, Spectron, and Ice as well....Ncore seems to have bested them all to date....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: richidoo on 23 Jun 2012, 12:13 am
Have fun tomorrow at your GTG.
George

Thanks George!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Jun 2012, 12:30 pm
i would love to see the results of ted doing a properly controlled blind a-b test of the ncore amps and the modwright amps in his system.   8)

doug s.
Me too!  I did just this with my huge Class A amps and failed 60% of the time.  It takes some Chutzpah though.  You need to take the money and bias completely out and deal with the facts. 

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 23 Jun 2012, 01:12 pm
I'm all ears (blind of course).  :)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 23 Jun 2012, 01:23 pm
I'm all ears (blind of course).  :)
:lol: 

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Geardaddy on 23 Jun 2012, 04:10 pm
And there have been comparisons to Nuforce, Spectron, and Ice as well....Ncore seems to have bested them all to date....

In blinded listening tests?  Obviously not.  I am not implying that the Ncore is not better.  It sounds as if it SHOULD be.

Jason told me that, in blinded sessions, he and his wife could not distinguish between his Clayton monos and the Ncore.  That is valid.  I subject my wife (after being plied with wine of course) into blinded testing of almost all the gear I buy.  She, being female and a former musician, has better ears than I do and can provide a thumbs up or thumbs down within 30 seconds.  No audiophile straining and posturing needed.   :lol:

As we both live in Charlotte, Jason offered to bring the Ncores by my listening room for some blinded testing.  I am game.  I use the ASR Emitter I exclusive for amp/pre-amp duty.  The ASR soundstages like a mother without mechanical artifact and is tombstone quiet.  Should be interesting.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 23 Jun 2012, 05:06 pm
I have had two business trips and am typing this post while sitting in Cleveland Hopkins Airport waiting to go to Vegas with my wife.

George:

That is very generous of to loan Ted your NCores. However, I will have my NCores done by next Sunday. I live so close to Ted that I mentioned to him that he could have mine for a couple of weeks.

God knows he deserves them since I have been trying his Mytek for way too long! :lol:

Regards

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 23 Jun 2012, 05:38 pm
I have had two business trips and am typing this post while sitting in Cleveland Hopkins Airport waiting to go to Vegas with my wife.

George:

That is very generous of to loan Ted your NCores. However, I will have my NCores done by next Sunday. I live so close to Ted that I mentioned to him that he could have mine for a couple of weeks.

God knows he deserves them since I have been trying his Mytek for way too long! :lol:

Regards

Randy

Works for me Randy.

Enjoy Vegas.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: arthurs on 23 Jun 2012, 07:55 pm
George, I could do a VAC Phi300.1 and. Lamm M1.1 comparison.....    8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 23 Jun 2012, 08:52 pm
George, I could do a VAC Phi300.1 and. Lamm M1.1 comparison.....    8)

Happy to lend it to you at some point Art. 

I can do a local M1.1 comparison, but not against that beautiful VAC. 

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: launche on 25 Jun 2012, 04:04 pm
I spent a few days with the Ncore's prior to dropping them off for Rich's get together. The basics of my system includes Danley SH50 horns, DAC Stereo Cherry amp, DEQX, Wyred 4 Sound passive Pre-amp.  My rig is a 2 channel/home theater combo system and I mostly use an Oppo BDP-95 SE for all digital media to keep things simple.  If pressed I say I'd prefer tubes over SS but can't deal with all that goes into owning a truly worthwhile pair of tubes that ticks all the boxes. For several years I've been looking for that just right SS amp.  I've tried a few of the ICE Power, Class D variants and enjoyed them all to varying degrees.  I simply wish to find a competent, low maintenance, high power amp.  So the Ncores are the latest to peak my interest based upon the Hypex reputation and the great word of mouth here.  I echo much of what's been said already, nothing really new to report.  I liked the Ncores even handedness from top to bottom.  Very tight focused and articulate bass, transparent mid-range and clean non-exaggerated highs. A very reassuring amp to say the least.  Great at all volumes and kept its composure when pushed hard.  Kept pretty much the same character at whispering levels as at room filling levels.  A very articulate amp all around, a nicely refined and focused sound stage with good instrument placement and separation.  Again, nothing new here so I would say that the essence of the amp is pretty well documented and I agree with much of it.

On my high efficiency horns (100dB) I can say the Ncores were quiet and well composed and were a good match with no harshness or digital nastiness that was offensive to my ears but then again I'm not as sensitive to those things as others may be or maybe I'm just more forgiving.  Very clean, crisp, refined and neutral sound. A pretty dynamic combo, excellent control, transient response and overall speed making for a controlled yet exciting presentation.  If you like Class D then there's isn't much not to like.  Exciting to think about bridging these for 1200 watts or so on my speakers, wow that would be nice in many ways.

As far as how the Ncores compare to my resident Cherry Amp, I did not do a lot of A-B evaluation, that's not my thing so much these days.  I did it once or twice but mostly I dropped the Ncores in and just listened for a few days.  It was one reason why I took my Cherry Amp to Richidoo's audio meet so more A-B listening could be done.  Not as much time as I would have liked was slotted for that comparison but it seems a general opinion was gathered.  Personally, I am very happy with the Cherry amp and it fits my system and tastes well.  In my system I found the Cherry to be warmer, more robust through the bass and midrange, a bit more dynamic and vibrant sounding.  The Ncores sounded cooler, a touch more refined and a bit more precise (monoblocks vs stereo?).  The Cherry seemed to have a bit larger sound stage left to right to front, the Ncore a more defined sound stage and maybe a touch more depth.  The Cherry may project into the room more and sound a little more forceful.  Rich commented the Cherry sounded like a good clean Push Pull tube amp with massive balls and I can agree with that analogy in the context of Class D.  I find the Cherry to be the best compromise I've heard between tubes and SS in my systems.  My speakers have dual 12 inch bass drivers per side and both amps just pound in the low registers, the Ncores a bit leaner and cleaner and I pushed them ear hurtin' hard and they just kept their composure and played the music louder as it should be.  The Cherry pounds a little harder and when pushed just keeps on pounding harder as if plenty of reserve is on tap. I could not get the Ncores to duplicate that to the same degree but then again in the different room and set up such a thing could be too much. The Ncores and Cherry seemed to sound pretty similar all in all and it may be a system synergy thing as to which one might fit best for people.  If I did not own a Cherry amp, I would likely buy a Ncore, possibly bridge it and ride off into the sunset.  It did pretty much everything I'd need for sound and practicality and mated well with my system.

Thanks Jason for squeezing me on tour and extending yourself in this way to allow us to spend some personal time with some really fine amps and for many could be the last amp they need to buy.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 26 Jun 2012, 07:19 pm
Launche- great review.  I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing the Cherry amp.  It's great to see a person with the guts to post his true impressions.  You have a very impressive system.

Cheers
Jack
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: gprro on 26 Jun 2012, 07:30 pm
Yeah nice review, good to meet you over at Rich's also! On the limited back to back comparison I was liking the cherry also. It had a fatter tone to it compared to the ncore, but I like it! Sounded more realistic on the set up we were using at that time.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 26 Jun 2012, 08:03 pm
Launche- great review.  I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing the Cherry amp.  It's great to see a person with the guts to post his true impressions.  You have a very impressive system.

Really? You think every other person who posted in this thread didn't post their actual impressions. Wow, your life must really suck that you have so little faith in humanity.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Turk on 26 Jun 2012, 08:25 pm
Gee, the jigs up, all 400 people posting about ncore conspired to hear the same thing.  Mass hysteria or black helicopters?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Jun 2012, 08:29 pm
Gee, the jigs up, all 400 people posting about ncore conspired to hear the same thing.  Mass hysteria or black helicopters?

Actually, it was the nice cash payment!   :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

I just checked FedEx and I will have my amps tomorrow.   :thumb:

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 26 Jun 2012, 08:36 pm
Really? You think every other person who posted in this thread didn't post their actual impressions. Wow, your life must really suck that you have so little faith in humanity.

 Exactly. What I got out of it is that the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang, provided the reporting was accurate, not that everyone else was lying.

 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Tyson on 26 Jun 2012, 08:45 pm
Launche- great review.  I respect your opinion and look forward to hearing the Cherry amp.  It's great to see a person with the guts to post his true impressions.  You have a very impressive system.

Cheers
Jack

I'm sad that my review in this thread didn't get any props from you :(
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 26 Jun 2012, 08:46 pm
Exactly. What I got out of it is that the Cherry is potentially one of the very few amps that can hang, provided the reporting was accurate, not that everyone else was lying.

Let's try and refrain from hyperbole.

I am sure that there are more than "a few" amps that can "hang" with the Ncore amps. 

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 26 Jun 2012, 08:50 pm
Really? You think every other person who posted in this thread didn't post their actual impressions. Wow, your life must really suck that you have so little faith in humanity.

C'mon now. I know for a fact that jackman is mighty psyched to listen to these amps while I have them on the tour. We can all learn what he thinks from direct experience after this week.

I don't think we need to worry about the ncores. They seem to be mighty impressive amps. And I can see how it might be good to hear why someone prefers something else after direct comparison. Especially if the listener does as nice a job as launche explaining why.

No reason why we should expect everyone to prefer ncores. And mighty surprising how many have loved the ncores after directly listening to them, considering the wide variations in taste that people have for audio equipment and considering the importance of system synergy.

Off to walk the dog. Then time to fire up the ncores!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 26 Jun 2012, 08:55 pm
Let's try and refrain from hyperbole.

I am sure that there are more than "a few" amps that can "hang" with the Ncore amps. 

George

 I'm sure you're quite right.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhakti on 26 Jun 2012, 09:06 pm

No reason why we should expect everyone to prefer ncores. And mighty surprising how many have loved the ncores after directly listening to them, considering the wide variations in taste that people have for audio equipment and considering the importance of system synergy.


Well said!  This is what surprises me the most - that they seem to play so well in so many different systems.  I guess time will tell if they can continue to appeal to such a wide spectrum of tastes in so many varied systems.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 26 Jun 2012, 09:13 pm
I'm sad that my review in this thread didn't get any props from you :(

Jeeze- Can't a guy compliment someone without getting attacked?  You know i loved your review!  I enjoy all of your reviews. Also, when I responded to launche's post, I had just returned from a couple Sangrias in a nice little restaurant in Madrid. Was feeling good and wanted to share the joy. Please factor that into my comments.

I didn't mean anything against anyone in this thread or on this site when I posted my comments.  Been on the beach in the tiny coastal Spanish town of Moncofa all week looking at some lovely Spanish _itties, on the beach. Audio is the last thing on my mind!  Even the Ncore can't compete with _itties on a Spanish beach.

Cheers everyone. I'm back in the states on Thursday and look forward to hearing the Ncore at Roscoe's place soon.

Jman
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Tyson on 26 Jun 2012, 09:29 pm
Dude, I'm just messin' witcha :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 26 Jun 2012, 09:39 pm
Dude, I'm just messin' witcha :D

Me too but it's a hassle to put smily faces in my message  cuz I'm using an iPhone.  Not kidding about the sangrias.  It's late here and I'm going to bed.

Cheers!

J
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mgalusha on 27 Jun 2012, 02:16 pm
No reason why we should expect everyone to prefer ncores. And mighty surprising how many have loved the ncores after directly listening to them, considering the wide variations in taste that people have for audio equipment and considering the importance of system synergy.

No argument about expecting everyone to like them, I said as much in the very first post; it's the implication that ~30 other folks are all full of shit and not offering their honest opinions.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 27 Jun 2012, 02:39 pm
OK guys.  Let's get back onto listening impressions.  It's very important to note that every person that has received these amps or that I've had any contact with that's heard them knows that I've asked for one thing specifically.

Honest feedback.

Let's keep it that way and get back to the listening impressions.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 27 Jun 2012, 11:33 pm
I believe I read somewhere that Jason said, not everyone was going to prefer the Ncores.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 27 Jun 2012, 11:47 pm
I have been listening to my "new" Ncore amps for the past few hours and it is like welcoming home an old friend!

They sound just like they did during the tour and I am enjoying them across lots of different artists (Rush, Natalie Merchant, Nora Jones, Beastie Boys, Charlie Hunter, and Ben Harper to name a few).

I'll try and snap a picture later.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 28 Jun 2012, 03:23 am
Even the Ncore can't compete with _itties on a Spanish beach.
Hopefully, that will satisfy those who think everyone here is simply a fanboy.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: MaxCast on 28 Jun 2012, 09:05 pm
I thought I got lucky and was going to have 5 nights (can't ship on weekends) with the Ncores but we missed the FedEx guy so I missed a day there.  Then Sunday got filled and not much listening on that last day of the stop in sunny SW Michigan.  But I did get plenty of time Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

Many thanks to Jason for sending these out on tour.  I am happy to be a part of it and here them in my own system.

I thought the Ncores had some strengths and weaknesses in my system.  I'm sure it was a synergy thing as the weaknesses could easily be cured by a few K in cable upgrades.  :P  Nevertheless, there were two areas where the Ncores did not sound as good to me compared to my Stratos.  The first area was the mids and highs.  The mids seemed to be recessed a bit from what I enjoy and am accustomed to.  Maybe it was overshadowed by the powerful bass these little monsters put out.  The highs were ok but I would not call it spectacular.  I did not find them to have any silibance which I hate.  With that said I did find them to have good clarity.  They are articulate but maybe at the expense of lushness and romance I like in the mids.  I would assume a different preamp, tube and/or DAC could change this.  Speaking of preamps my Mapletree 2A did not have enough gain.  It just didn't drive the amps like the SS Audiorefinement PRE-5 that I also have.  The AR is actually a nice peamp as it held up nicely with other preamps I have auditioned in my price range.

The second area I noticed was the sound stage.  It didn't go as far outside the speakers as I get with the Stratos.  I measured speaker distances, made sure the GIK side panels were in their correct position, etc.  It was something I noticed on all days with many different CDs.

The two biggest strengths I enjoyed about the Ncores were the center stage and power.  I kept noticing the depth of the center stage with all types of music.  It had a layering and placement of instruments/voices that I will miss.
The second strength was the power.  The Salk HT-3's loved the power.  The bass was strong and good on low or higher volumes.  Dare I say too much sometimes?  No, probably a room mode.  I normally don't listen to music at 90dB peaking at 100 but I couldn't help myself.  It was a lot of fun and something I will always have in the back of my mind.  The boys and I were rockin!  :rock:
amps got a little warm but that was it.

Overall, what do I think of these amps?  If I were building a new system with inefficient speakers, had some diy skills and like loud music I would be all over these.  The power is there (maggie owners) and I believe the weaknesses can be improved upon with a little trial and error on preamp and DAC choices.  I think it would be hard to be for less than 2K.
As usual when I audition equipment I heard things I haven't heard before in recordings.  I believe this is because a) I forgot or b) you listen with audiophile ears vs. just listening to your favorite music.  All this was with my system and my ears, your system and ears will vary.

Thanks again to Jason.  You are an asset to the AC community.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 28 Jun 2012, 09:25 pm
I have been listening to my "new" Ncore amps for the past few hours and it is like welcoming home an old friend!

They sound just like they did during the tour and I am enjoying them across lots of different artists (Rush, Natalie Merchant, Nora Jones, Beastie Boys, Charlie Hunter, and Ben Harper to name a few).

I'll try and snap a picture later.

George

Here is a quick picture:


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ml8X__l0CNM/T-zLZgutSRI/AAAAAAAAQV4/iuAVXVhD8qE/s1600/DSC_3076.jpg)


George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Geardaddy on 28 Jun 2012, 10:49 pm
I have been listening to my "new" Ncore amps for the past few hours and it is like welcoming home an old friend

Or a new friend that will replace an old friend (Atmas)?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 29 Jun 2012, 08:12 am
Hi Guys

This isn't part of your listening tour and I am out in Aus but you may be interested in a listening session I just completed with the NCores.

An acquaintance out here in Aus lent me some Ncores and a few hours ago popped them in my system with a NAD M51 as source and ML3 Reference as speakers. Here are some of my initial impressions.

Well how do they sound - clear, clean, pure and neutral - very neutral.  With the NAD 51 as source I heard the exact same setup with Mac 501's yesterday and know the sound of my NAKSA 100 very well.  First how do they compare to the Mac's - very well thank you very much.  Bass grip not quite as good - still pretty good mind you - but those Mac's have simply amazing bass grip.  They have a slightly harder sound with maybe a trace of glare - maybe - than the Mac's but the Mac's to me have a slighly tubey midrange and a slight veil - this doesn't have the veil - but have a slight hardness and etched character the Mac's lack and the midrange isn't quite as enjoyable.  The Mac's are better to listen to for long periods IMHO.  My Trafomatic Experience 2 300B SET totally clobers it for midrange divineness - but then again no amp I have heard touches it in that department - although the Arions come close.  It's not like the NAKSA 100 I have which the designer Hugh Dean has voiced to sound really good for long periods - but is not the last word in neutrality - and is more the type of amp you go - ahh - that's nice when you hear it - this amp isn't.  Its more the type of amp you go - hmmm - exactly what character does it have and you have to listen to it for a while to lock onto it and notice a few things like the slight hardness etc.  How does it compare to the Arion 500's I recently got which is the best (to my ears anyway) amp I have ever heard?  I will see if I can do a direct comparison at some future date but most certainly a comparison with my aquantances that have heard the Arion's is on the cards.  My view is the Arions simply sound real - this amp sounds slighly hard, etched and contrived in comparison.  How does it compare to the NAD C4390DD - the NAD has greater slam but sort of sounds a bit thicker for want of a better word.  But overall fed with the NAD M51 I would say they are about equal - just slightly different.

I hope to, when I have someone to give me a hand, be able to rig it up through my QOL Completion stage so we can check it out against my Bybeed up PDX DAC.  I will be taking it over to an acquaintance here in Aus  place, Rob's, tomorrow for comparison against his Spectron on his Ambiance Ribbons.

I will also give it a go with my Playback Designs MPD-3 a bit later - it is extremely good with DSD having a very realistic natural sound.

Overall this is a very very good amp - up there with some of the better amps I have heard.  If you prefer a highly neutral and accurate sound and are not worried it may not be relaxing to listen to for long periods then it could be just your ticket.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Jun 2012, 12:33 pm
Bill,

Thanks for your review. I am glad you found that the Ncores are one of the more neutral amps that you have heard. That I believe, was the designers idea.

I do look forward to the comparison with the Arion 500. Did you actually compare it to the Trafomatic tube amp or was that from memory?

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rascal on 29 Jun 2012, 01:08 pm
Here is a quick picture:
George

Very nice :thumb: May I know where you got the case/front plate?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Jun 2012, 01:43 pm
This was posted on diy by Bruno regarding Bhobba's post.  I thought I'd post this as I found it very interesting in a few ways.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-463.html#post3076176
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64435)

Quote from: Bruno Putzeys;3076176
Thx Bill for the feedback.

Some background on why the NC400 sounds the way it does: it is always a dilemma whether an amp should be tuned for things like subjective bass control, sweet mids or not. One of the tricks a Mac does by design is to have a highish output impedance (because of the autoformer) which makes for a more liquid mid-range sound and then to add a subjective sense of bass control by allowing a slight THD rise in the top end. When things like those are really tastefully balanced, such an amp can really make life hard on a "straight wire" amp in a shootout. The signal actually comes out sounding nicer and more impressive than what went in. But on the other hand, I think that to make the greatest number of people happy, one can't afford to give an amp a sound of its own because the number of new fans is probably immediately offset by the number of people who don't like that particular tuning.

But it's tough to resist the occasional sonic touch-up. I can emulate the sound of pretty much any amp out there if I wanted. But so far I'm resisting. If ever I give in, it'll be obvious from the measurements and I hope someone calls me out on it...

Anyhow that's why I decided I actually wanted the NC400 to have this unvarnished, dead-pan delivery.

My respsonse that was posted on diy:

Quote from: jtwrace;3076227
I'm sure some of the tweakers or recording guys would love that.  My Metric Halo LIO-8 has what they call "characters" for just this purpose.  You want tube sound, select it and it really does sound like tubes.  They have many different types too.


I'm happy you did too but as noted above so many people would love that tool probably.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 29 Jun 2012, 03:01 pm
Hi Guys

This isn't part of your listening tour and I am out in Aus but you may be interested in a listening session I just completed with the NCores.

An acquaintance out here in Aus lent me some Ncores and a few hours ago popped them in my system with a NAD M51 as source and ML3 Reference as speakers. Here are some of my initial impressions.

Well how do they sound - clear, clean, pure and neutral - very neutral.  With the NAD 51 as source I heard the exact same setup with Mac 501's yesterday and know the sound of my NAKSA 100 very well.  First how do they compare to the Mac's - very well thank you very much.  Bass grip not quite as good - still pretty good mind you - but those Mac's have simply amazing bass grip.  They have a slightly harder sound with maybe a trace of glare - maybe - than the Mac's but the Mac's to me have a slighly tubey midrange and a slight veil - this doesn't have the veil - but have a slight hardness and etched character the Mac's lack and the midrange isn't quite as enjoyable.  The Mac's are better to listen to for long periods IMHO.  My Trafomatic Experience 2 300B SET totally clobers it for midrange divineness - but then again no amp I have heard touches it in that department - although the Arions come close.  It's not like the NAKSA 100 I have which the designer Hugh Dean has voiced to sound really good for long periods - but is not the last word in neutrality - and is more the type of amp you go - ahh - that's nice when you hear it - this amp isn't.  Its more the type of amp you go - hmmm - exactly what character does it have and you have to listen to it for a while to lock onto it and notice a few things like the slight hardness etc.  How does it compare to the Arion 500's I recently got which is the best (to my ears anyway) amp I have ever heard?  I will see if I can do a direct comparison at some future date but most certainly a comparison with my aquantances that have heard the Arion's is on the cards.  My view is the Arions simply sound real - this amp sounds slighly hard, etched and contrived in comparison.  How does it compare to the NAD C4390DD - the NAD has greater slam but sort of sounds a bit thicker for want of a better word.  But overall fed with the NAD M51 I would say they are about equal - just slightly different.

I hope to, when I have someone to give me a hand, be able to rig it up through my QOL Completion stage so we can check it out against my Bybeed up PDX DAC.  I will be taking it over to an acquaintance here in Aus  place, Rob's, tomorrow for comparison against his Spectron on his Ambiance Ribbons.

I will also give it a go with my Playback Designs MPD-3 a bit later - it is extremely good with DSD having a very realistic natural sound.

Overall this is a very very good amp - up there with some of the better amps I have heard.  If you prefer a highly neutral and accurate sound and are not worried it may not be relaxing to listen to for long periods then it could be just your ticket.

Thanks
Bill


Bill,

Interesting you fed the NAD C390DD with the NAD M51.  Would it not be a better comparison to go M51 into NCore against NAD C390DD alone - isn't the M51 the same digital stage as the C390 has with the exception of adding another set of cables if you use the C390 with the M51?

The only reason I ask this is because of interest in the NAD products and not to dispute your claims.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 29 Jun 2012, 03:44 pm

Zybar - where did you get those cases?  8)


Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 29 Jun 2012, 04:13 pm
This was posted on diy by Bruno regarding Bhobba's post.  I thought I'd post this as I found it very interesting in a few ways.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-463.html#post3076176
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64435)

Interesting, didn't Bob Carver do something similar (tuning his SS amp to sound like another mfr's tube amp) at an audio-show a number of years back?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: playntheblues on 29 Jun 2012, 05:29 pm
+1 for Zybar where did you get those case's?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 29 Jun 2012, 05:31 pm
Zybar - where did you get those cases?  8)


Rocket_Ronny

+1 for Zybar where did you get those case's?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106336.msg1088558#msg1088558

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106187.msg1104426#msg1104426
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 29 Jun 2012, 06:45 pm

I knew you had lined up cases but did not know you had the cool faceplate.

Thanks,

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 29 Jun 2012, 06:49 pm
Interesting, didn't Bob Carver do something similar (tuning his SS amp to sound like another mfr's tube amp) at an audio-show a number of years back?

Yes. If you mean 27 years ago that is.

http://bobcarver.com/carver_bio.asp

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 29 Jun 2012, 07:37 pm
Interesting, didn't Bob Carver do something similar (tuning his SS amp to sound like another mfr's tube amp) at an audio-show a number of years back?

PV-
Quote
Yes. If you mean 27 years ago that is.
http://bobcarver.com/carver_bio.asp

and was also provided in his more recent Sunfire Signature Amplifiers via a set of 'Current Source' binding posts, which simply inserted 1 ohm resistors in series with the outputs
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 29 Jun 2012, 11:06 pm
This was posted on diy by Bruno regarding Bhobba's post.  I thought I'd post this as I found it very interesting in a few ways.


http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-463.html#post3076176
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=64435)

My response that was posted on diy:

i also find this wery interesting.  it seems to get at the dilemma of what is meant by "accuracy" - does it measure perfectly, and mimic the recording perfectly?  or does it sound more like real music? 

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 29 Jun 2012, 11:15 pm
+ 1 for straight shot no chaser when it comes to amps. Give it to me raw baby. You got buffers and preamps for all that frilly "lush" tuning stuff.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 30 Jun 2012, 01:01 am
Thanks for your review. I am glad you found that the Ncores are one of the more neutral amps that you have heard. That I believe, was the designers idea. I do look forward to the comparison with the Arion 500. Did you actually compare it to the Trafomatic tube amp or was that from memory?

Hi Anand

Yea - based on a post repeated here from the designer that was indeed his idea.  Its neither good or bad - the idea of Hi Fi IMHO is to trick the brain into saying this is real - you know its not but you want your brain fooled.  Exactly what that takes varies from person to person.

I own a Traformatic Experience 2 and know that amp very very well.  Its midrange is truly magical - the best I have ever heard - colored as hell - but a joy to listen to.  That is the only area the NCore is not better than the Traf - in every other way the NCore is better.  But that midrange for many on the right type of music can trick the brain into suspending belief where the Ncores may not.  I remember a comparison I was at where the Traf was compared to Mac 501's on Dianna Krall and it simply blew the Mac's away but use say Rage Against The Machine and it will be a different story.

Sorry I couldn't do a direct comparison against the Arion 500's.  I ordered a pair and after a long wait being held up in Customs it finally arrived and I did get a chance to hear it with fellow audiophiles.  IMHO it is the best amp I have ever heard - it does not sound SS or Tubey - it simply sounds real.  But although I was the first person to order one here in Aus some others ordered them a bit later from the same guy that was kind enough to take the chance on getting them in for me.  He is glad he did - he too believes it is the best amp he ever heard but one of the other people that ordered one really wanted them ASAP and I was asked if he could have mine and I wait until that guys order arrives.  I agreed and will now need to wait for the new pair to come in which is expected to take a few weeks. Anyway I can assure you the Arions to my ears are better - they lack the slight hardness and other minor issues I found in the NCores - to my ears.  I will however see if a direct comparison to the Arions with fellow audiophiles present a bit further down the line.  Trouble is I only have the Ncores for three weeks - but may be able to get them a bit later for that comparison - but can't be certain.  The other thing of course is the Arions are MUCH more expensive.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 30 Jun 2012, 01:09 am
Interesting you fed the NAD C390DD with the NAD M51.  Would it not be a better comparison to go M51 into NCore against NAD C390DD alone - isn't the M51 the same digital stage as the C390 has with the exception of adding another set of cables if you use the C390 with the M51? The only reason I ask this is because of interest in the NAD products and not to dispute your claims.

Hi Bill

Sorry for any confusion.  I fed the NAD C390DD with digital and not via the M51.  However the C390DD has exactly the same front end (as you correctly point out) as the M51 so we were comparing like to like. IMHO the C3900 is equally as good as the M51 Ncore combo - just a bit different - the NAD has dynamics that are startling while the Ncore has a more natural sound - the C390DD sounds a bit 'thick'.  Pick your poison - its personal preference which you like.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 30 Jun 2012, 01:12 am
bhobba

What speakers do you use?

Even better, what's the rest of your system?  Can you post a picture of your room?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 30 Jun 2012, 01:24 am
i also find this wery interesting.  it seems to get at the dilemma of what is meant by "accuracy" - does it measure perfectly, and mimic the recording perfectly?  or does it sound more like real music? 

Accuracy means exactly that - how truthful it is to the source.  But you have a brain that interprets this stuff and strict accuracy may or may not trick it into saying - this is real.  This is well known to speaker designers where a speaker alignment of .5 - called transient perfect - is the most accurate.  However experiments have shown most people find it too tight and not as real sounding as a slightly higher alignment of .6 or even .65.  Such an alignment is still very accurate but for some reason tricks the brain better.  That's an example of something experiments have shown applies to most people.

I recently heard of a comparison of a top of the line DAC fed via a computer to a top of the line turntable.  In the opinion of the person that did the comparison the DAC MURDERED the turntable - but guess what - it was 50-50 which was preferred.  I also demo my system with various amps to a number of people - some say my Trafomatic is simply magical and it is the amp I should use all the time - forget about my other stuff.  Others say its buttery and slushy and I should forget about it.  These are examples of where it is different for different people. 

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 30 Jun 2012, 01:39 am
What speakers do you use? Even better, what's the rest of your system?  Can you post a picture of your room?

I did mention it in my post - but you probably don't know them in the US - they are well known in the audiophile community here in Aus though - they are ML3 Reference:
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/index.php/products/ml3-speakers.html

They are lined with steel and are pretty much the deadest thing out there.  The crossover is fully tricked out with Duelund VSF copper capacators which, while generally considered the best, at about $500.00 a pop are so hellishly expensive virtually no other manufacturer uses them.

Here are some older pictures of my system back when I had a Leben - I have since moved on to a Trafomatic Experience 2 and NAKSA 100:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=5463

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 30 Jun 2012, 06:57 pm
Bill,
such an honest appraisal is appreciated.  I want my brain fooled too, just need to decide which piece of gear is responsible for that.  Ideally, for me, that would be the source and all that follows would be neutral.  Jason just caught my attention with his comment about the metric halo.  hmmmm.  feed the vice for nice....

That said, I can't help but wonder if reducing distortion in all equipment, connections and speakers might yield a musical system that is true to the source.  And, how much it would cost for such a system.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 30 Jun 2012, 07:59 pm
Accuracy means exactly that - how truthful it is to the source.  But you have a brain that interprets this stuff and strict accuracy may or may not trick it into saying - this is real.  This is well known to speaker designers where a speaker alignment of .5 - called transient perfect - is the most accurate.  However experiments have shown most people find it too tight and not as real sounding as a slightly higher alignment of .6 or even .65.  Such an alignment is still very accurate but for some reason tricks the brain better.  That's an example of something experiments have shown applies to most people.

this simply proves what i was saying/asking - what, exactly, does "how truthful it is to the source" really mean?  to me, it means how "real" can it sound, which is not necessarily what is most technically accurate in measurable electronic terms.

what transpires electronically from the recording mic thru the electronics all the way to the playback speakers may be the most technically accurate, but if something that is less technically accurate makes what happened before the info actually reached the recording mic seem more real, then it is possible that it is in fact more accurate, but we simply are not measuring everything that is most important...

to me, by definition, if it sounds more "real", then ipso facto, it has to be more "accurate".

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Jun 2012, 10:28 pm
jackman came over earlier today and we had a nice session with the ncores. He brought his Coda 4/3/2 amp. While I have the SP Techs still in my listening room, we only listened through my recently acquired Von Schweikert VR-4 Gen II speakers. Here are the main observations that we made:

1) The ncores have an iron grip over the bass. This stood out more than anything. It was particularly obvious when playing Side A of the second LP from  James Blake's self-titled album. Some really subterranean bass on thos tracks, particularly the first track. The bass advantages were still there but much less evident on tracks with more normal (non-computer produced) sources of bass like bass guitar and bass drum.  The James Blake is a grueling test for low low bass grunt and control. 

2) The Coda amp jackman brought had a good deal more midrange emphasis. In the midrange, it felt like there was more meat on the bones with the Coda. But neither the low or top end was as convincing as with the ncore (the top end of the ncore was excellent). The ncore across the entire spectrum felt like a more precise sound, with great definition and detail retrieval.

All the above was using my Musical Fidelity kW preamp whose measurements are pretty stellar (details here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/musical-fidelity-kw-hybrid-line-preamplifier-kw750-power-amplifier-kw-hybrid-measurements )

3) To try to get some of the midrange body with the ncore, I brought out my Little Dot VI balanced tube headphone amp/preamp (which it should be noted was primarily designed for headphone amp use). This paired with the ncore got us a midrange with body that was midway between the kW & Coda and the kW and the ncore. On the James Blake, the VI didn't have the bass control of the hybrid kW monster. But both jackman and I preferred the VI with the ncore on tracks from Ziggy Stardust (great new LP pressing of this, BTW). Here we got some really fabulous layering of the soundstage (much more front-to-back soundstage). That combo just clicked with the Bowie (which it mus be said is much more representative of most people's musical content. The Blake is one helluva bass stress test, but there isn't a lot of music that goes that low).

And all of the above was played through my vinyl rig (Townshend Rock 7, with a Rega RB301 to a Dynavector P75).

A great afternoon listening to music. Before packing the ncore up and getting them off to the next stop, I will see how it does with my SP Tech Minis.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 30 Jun 2012, 10:38 pm
I would like to address several points.

The following IMHO:
1) The Ncore 400 cost should be compared to the new retail of any amp it is being compared against. Even if the Ncore is DIY it is NEW not used and such it is only fair to use the new cost of whatever it is compared to. Example is the Cherry amp. Even if one prefers the Cherry it is several thousand dollars more. And the same can be said for all the others if I am not mistaken. And we are comparing a DIY to mostly OEM. I for one am REALLY CURIOUS as to how the OEM Ncore 1200 sounds against these OEMs and others that are close in price. And I know of a one Ncore 1200 coming out that will be very competitive in price (no I can not say, I would have to kill you if I told you :nono: :lol:).

2) If you want an amp that ADDS a particular sound, harmonics, more bass, what have you, that is your choice, but do not hold it against the Ncore, that it is even handed top to bottom. Or that other pieces in you system might be the weak link. Most things in our systems are part of the "weak link" for "sound" that has been engineered into it. Most of the CD players, turntable cartridges, preamp, cabling etc are compromises in sound. It is very hard to find a piece that is even handed and does not add its own sound to the playback. Many times it is ones own system that is the problem and not the piece one is demoing in the system. That fact that so many people in so many different systems with so many different tastes in music (not only on AC) come to describe the Ncore 400 as not having or adding a sound of its own is a testament as to how good it really is. Again, if you want vanilla over chocolate or rocky road over mint chocolate chip that is great but it is a matter of taste (we all know chocolate RULES).   

3) I will be the first person to defend that what one hears and describes in their system is just as important as any other and is no less a value to the discussion. We learn from each other, here or in a classroom. 

4) I have never heard an amp like the Ncore 400 and while it may not be everyones "flavor" it is the first time I have heard "a wire with gain" if you know what I mean.
 
Well that is it for now.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 30 Jun 2012, 10:44 pm
Roscoe, do I summarize correctly to say the Ncore's sound wasn't perfect and could be improved? 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Jun 2012, 10:54 pm
I will respectfully disagree with the "straight wire with gain" claims for the ncore, and I would instead say it is another flavor (and a flavor with some considerable strengths). At this level of amplifier, the question is which flavor best suits your system and preferences. There are instances and certain music where I would prefer the Coda's excellent midrange, even though the frequency extremes weren't nearly as well done as the ncore. And many single driver speaker & tube fans also choose to make similar choices. Personally, I'd want the frequency extremes that the ncore excels in. But I find myself feeling much as I did after comparing the Well Tempered Amadeus with the Townshend Rock 7. Both are great choices and it comes down to personal preferences. A damn shame my Butler 2250 wasn't back from repairs due to UPS damage. That would be a fairer playing field for comparison.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 30 Jun 2012, 11:43 pm
And as I have said before, system synergy and matches to personal preferences is everything. That the ncore appeals to so many different audiophiles with suc6h different systems is very very impressive, esp at it price.

The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 1 Jul 2012, 12:14 am
Roscoeiii, while I agree with you in most aspects I respectfully disagree with you about the "straight wire with gain" as the Ncore has no real flavor, as many who have heard it have posted. That is, to me at least, its greatest strength. It is a clean base to build from. But I can see were one might consider that as another flavor. IMHO.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 1 Jul 2012, 12:24 am
hifial, does "no flavor" = perfect? 

If it does, you have quite a claim on your hands.

If it doesn't, what is imperfection but flavor?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Jul 2012, 12:41 am
The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.

 :lol:

You're welcome over any time!   :thumb:  I think it's magical.   :wink:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 1 Jul 2012, 12:45 am
And as I have said before, system synergy and matches to personal preferences is everything. That the ncore appeals to so many different audiophiles with suc6h different systems is very very impressive, esp at it price.

The combos I would love to hear with ncores in my system are an Atma-sphere or Dude preamp.

It is indeed magical.

While my Atma-Sphere amps may eventually be sold, I have no plans on letting go of my Atma-Sphere preamp.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 1 Jul 2012, 12:46 am
Roscoe,
Nice review.  Too bad about not having the Butler.  In a few weeks, I'll have my ncores in place. I'm looking forward to hearing how much of the tube sound I love is contributed by the source and how much tube goodness the Butler contributed.

I won't be able to do an A/B comparison, but some of the most familiar music should make it obvious.

Phil
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Jul 2012, 12:49 am
It is indeed magical.

While my Atma-Sphere amps may eventually be sold, I have no plans on letting go of my Atma-Sphere preamp.

George
That's great to hear!  I take it that you have a dead silent background too? 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jhm731 on 1 Jul 2012, 12:51 am
-Most of the CD players, turntable cartridges, preamp, cabling etc are compromises in sound. It is very hard to find a piece that is even handed and does not add its own sound to the playback.

-I have never heard an amp like the Ncore 400 and while it may not be everyones "flavor" it is the first time I have heard "a wire with gain" if you know what I mean.

If your first point is true, what equipment did you use to determine that the Ncore 400's "a wire with gain"?

If you want to hear a neutral amp with dead silent background, try a Sanders Magtech.


Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: srb on 1 Jul 2012, 01:06 am
If you want to hear a neutral amp with dead silent background, try a Sanders Magtech.

What equipment did you use to determine that the Sanders Magetch is "neutral"?

Steve
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 1 Jul 2012, 01:13 am
That's great to hear!  I take it that you have a dead silent background too?

Yes.

BTW, I tried the amps plugged directly into the wall today vs. being plugged into my Furman/UberBuss combo - thanks to my froend David for doing the changes and picking some great music for our comparison (Kenny Burell, Elvis Costello, Bowie, Jerry Garcia, and Bob Marley to name a few).

We both immediately heard a difference each time we made a switch.  While we both preferred one setup over the other, I want to stay that both sounded good.

Into the wall: The highs were a little more prominent and the midrange was a little thinner.  The overall sound was a smidge more open and airy than what I am used to hearing.

Into the pc's:  The highs were slightly constricted and not quite as free sounding.  The midrange was more palpable and weighty, which provides a more "you are there" sound.

In both cases the bass was excellent all-around.

Everything in this hobby is about personal choices and preferences.  In this case, we both preferred the sound of the system with the amps plugged into the pc's.

Looks like I am in the minority on this one.

George

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 1 Jul 2012, 01:17 am


Looks like I am in the minority on this one.

George

Actually, jtwrace had it plugged into his Über when I listened to it a few months ago at his place.

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 1 Jul 2012, 01:25 am
Into the wall: The highs were a little more prominent ...

In this case, we both preferred the sound of the system with the amps plugged into the pc's.

Interesting you should observe that, George.  Those more prominent wall-powered highs could be in part HF hash, giving the Ncore's HFs a bit of champagne bubble.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 1 Jul 2012, 01:48 am
Hi Guys

Regarding if an amp is straight wire with gain that is a very difficult thing to determine - and in the end pointless.  Take for example the issue of distortion - you can reduce distortion to unbelievably low levels by huge amounts of feedback yet to the ear it sounds as though the life has been sucked out of the music.  The technical reason is since it takes time for feedback to act their is a time lag where distortion can creep though and annoy the ears.  You can probably figure out how to measure that and incorporate it into measurements.  But then you must balance two parameters - distortion and time lag - either is a deviation from a straight wire with gain.  Which do you give the greater weight to - only you, your brain and ears, can determine that - figures never can.

So listen to amps in your system and make up your own mind - that's the fun part of this hobby.

Did some further listening yesterday with Rob and his Ambiance Ribbons who I mentioned in a previous post and here is what we found.

First was a WFS DAC2 into a Modright valve pre amp and a bybeed Spectron digital amp.  Thought I heard the Saber signature of a slight dryness and sibilance but as many have noted about the Saber it was much more palatable feeding it into valves - although not totally eliminated.  Next we put in the NAD M51.  A wetter more honeyed sound with the M51 but interestingly the sibilance control was not as good as the WFS.  It was thought that overall they were pretty equal.  OK we popped in the NCores.  Unfortunately the sound immediately dropped away - voices became very recessed and everything was closed in.  Detail not as good. Treble was not as clean.  Next we put the M51 direct into the Ncores.  Immediate improvement - better detail, voices not closed in and a bit cleaner - but at the cost of a slight hardness to the sound.  It looks like the Ncores may not like valve pre-amp's but of course more experimentation would be required to form any firm conclusions.  We then put the WFS direct into the Spectron.  Yea the dryness and sibilance was now there in full force - but the detail was improved. I personally preferred the valve pre-amp.  Then the M51 was tried direct to the Spectron.  I preferred the M51 that way over the pre-amp.  The Spectron revealed more detail, the slight hardness of the Ncores were gone and the imaging was more refined but compared to the WFS it was a bit dull and not as transparent - I preferred the WFS - which is surprising since unless it is fed with the Off-Ramp it not my favorite DAC - but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jhm731 on 1 Jul 2012, 02:06 am
What equipment did you use to determine that the Sanders Magetch is "neutral"?

Steve

See my comments at the end of Bill's latest post.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jhm731 on 1 Jul 2012, 02:18 am
Hi Guys

Regarding if an amp is straight wire with gain that is a very difficult thing to determine - and in the end pointless.  Take for example the issue of distortion - you can reduce distortion to unbelievably low levels by huge amounts of feedback yet to the ear it sounds as though the life has been sucked out of the music.  The technical reason is since it takes time for feedback to act their is a time lag where distortion can creep though and annoy the ears.  You can probably figure out how to measure that and incorporate it into measurements.  But then you must balance two parameters - distortion and time lag - either is a deviation from a straight wire with gain.  Which do you give the greater weight to - only you, your brain and ears, can determine that - figures never can.

So listen to amps in your system and make up your own mind - that's the fun part of this hobby.

Did some further listening yesterday with Rob and his Ambiance Ribbons who I mentioned in a previous post and here is what we found.

First was a WFS DAC2 into a Modright valve pre amp and a bybeed Spectron digital amp.  Thought I heard the Saber signature of a slight dryness and sibilance but as many have noted about the Saber it was much more palatable feeding it into valves - although not totally eliminated.  Next we put in the NAD M51.  A wetter more honeyed sound with the M51 but interestingly the sibilance control was not as good as the WFS.  It was thought that overall they were pretty equal.  OK we popped in the NCores.  Unfortunately the sound immediately dropped away - voices became very recessed and everything was closed in.  Detail not as good. Treble was not as clean.  Next we put the M51 direct into the Ncores.  Immediate improvement - better detail, voices not closed in and a bit cleaner - but at the cost of a slight hardness to the sound.  It looks like the Ncores may not like valve pre-amp's but of course more experimentation would be required to form any firm conclusions.  We then put the WFS direct into the Spectron.  Yea the dryness and sibilance was now there in full force - but the detail was improved. I personally preferred the valve pre-amp.  Then the M51 was tried direct to the Spectron.  I preferred the M51 that way over the pre-amp.  The Spectron revealed more detail, the slight hardness of the Ncores were gone and the imaging was more refined but compared to the WFS it was a bit dull and not as transparent - I preferred the WFS - which is surprising since unless it is fed with the Off-Ramp it not my favorite DAC - but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

Thanks for the interesting feedback.

The Spectron is an excellent amp and can be found at very attractive prices on the used market.

A friend recently replaced his Spectron with a Sanders Magtech, which he felt
was more neutral sounding.
 
If you can find a Magtech down in your part of the planet, give it a listen. 8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 1 Jul 2012, 02:22 am

.... but as always system synergies are everything.

The bottom line here is yes the Ncores are excellent value for money and sounds very good, but when compared to the MUCH more expensive Spectron the Spectron was clearly better.

Thanks
Bill

I guess synergies are everything as the amps the ncores replaced in my system were in fact Spectrons....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 1 Jul 2012, 02:49 am
cab, which amp produced the largest sound-stage in terms of height,width, depth and envelopment between the two amplifiers? Also, did one amp have a better sense of dynamic life and freedom from compression than the other.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 1 Jul 2012, 03:02 am
I can't think of a single thing the Spectron did better than the ncores....They do have more power, but I found the ncores to have all I will need, and then some....Spectrons are very good, but the ncores are in another league, in my experience.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Jul 2012, 03:17 am
What's the cost of a mono pr and will it drive scintillas ....?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 1 Jul 2012, 03:41 am
One of the first amps beaten was a $20,000 Accuphase, so cost doesn't have anything to do with it, other than giving you a huge psychological bias to like the more expensive amp, particularly if you own it.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 1 Jul 2012, 05:55 am
What's the cost of a mono pr and will it drive scintillas ....?

The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 1 Jul 2012, 06:01 am
If you can find a Magtech down in your part of the planet, give it a listen. 8)

Funny you mention that the guy with the Spectrons had a Magtech there and I will check it out sometime.  He thinks the Spectron was better.

But system synergies, personal preferences, etc play havoc with actually saying, in a definitive way, what is better than what.  All you can say is is something worth your while seeking out and checking out.  The Ncores are IMHO.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jhm731 on 1 Jul 2012, 06:45 am
Funny you mention that the guy with the Spectrons had a Magtech there and I will check it out sometime.  He thinks the Spectron was better.

But system synergies, personal preferences, etc play havoc with actually saying, in a definitive way, what is better than what.  All you can say is is something worth your while seeking out and checking out.  The Ncores are IMHO.

Thanks
Bill

Bill,
 
Suggest you and the guy with the Spectrons read the Magtech review on Stereotimes.com.

I have no dog in this hunt, I don't own Spectrons, Magtechs or the NCores.

I'm listening to a $200. Pioneer receiver recommended by Dr.Geddes. If the NCores are as good as everyone reports, I'll try to find the funds to put together some monos.

Just hope I don't need a $4K+ preamp like George and jtwrace
to make them sound good. 8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 1 Jul 2012, 06:49 am
I'm going to pair them with a $900 preamp, I'll let you know.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 1 Jul 2012, 08:20 am
Suggest you and the guy with the Spectrons read the Magtech review on Stereotimes.com.

Don't start me on reviewers.  The times I have read some supposedly expert reviewer says something is the greatest thing since sliced bread only to get it and think - what kind of oxygen are they breathing - I really have lost count.

Just one example. The reviews of B&W 802D's were effusive.  Then I had a guy I know with measuring equipment ring me and said he got a pair and come on over and have a listen.  I did.  Bottom heavy, out of balance and grungy - not high end by any stretch of the imagination.  He then showed me the measurements - the frequency response went down and you could see two suck-outs at the crossover's.  It measured just like it sounded.  I have zero idea what the reviewers who raved about them were listening to but if it was the same as the speaker I heard they should first get their ears cleaned out then listen to some genuinely neutral and accurate speakers.

Sorry mate I take what reviewers gaggle on about these days with a grain of salt.

Thanks
Bill 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 1 Jul 2012, 11:53 am
Quote

Just hope I don't need a $4K+ preamp like George and jtwrace
to make them sound good.

I listened to Jason's NCores through my Nightshade Audio Beacon III preamp, which is not as expensive as George's Atma-spher or Jason's TRL Dude and the NCores impressed me greatly.

Regards

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 1 Jul 2012, 01:56 pm
The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

Bill,
This thread is for listening impressions, and I gather that is your "impression".  It is not fact, however; in my system I clearly stated that I needed more power (current or voltage, not sure) to produce the dynamics that my KWA-150's produce.  My speakers are different than yours, etc.  I brought up the idea of bridging them.

I owned bridged Spectron monos.  They are also more dynamic, but in many other categories, other than overall bass control, the NCores were clearly superior in my system.  (Note: Spectron audio memory only.  :( )
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 1 Jul 2012, 02:07 pm
Bill,
This thread is for listening impressions
Thanks for mentioning this Ted.  I'd really like to keep it that way too.  You guys are more then welcome to start a new thread to speak all about this stuff though.   :thumb:  It just makes it much easier for people to read through the impression thread.

I could certainly move the posts to a new thread if everyone was good with that too.

Thanks.  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 1 Jul 2012, 05:37 pm
The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill
scintilla's will present a load of 1 ohm or lower to an amp; i don't think your answer has addressed the question.  "having enough" power" isn't the question, the question is whether or not the ncores are stable w/loads that dip below 1 ohm.

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 1 Jul 2012, 06:10 pm
I think this is a question that only Bruno can answer, he might have even tested an Ncore to destruction on low impedance loads.
  If I was to hazard a guess, I wouldn't be surprised to see the protection circuitry kick in with loads of this kind and their associated HIGH current levels.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Jul 2012, 08:28 pm
The Ncores have enough power to drive anything to sane levels - and beyond.  The issue is not power - its simply if in your system it floats your boat. 

Thanks
Bill

Will it drive a 1 ohm load , it's rated max is 25 amp's  and what's the cost . ?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a.wayne on 1 Jul 2012, 08:32 pm
I think this is a question that only Bruno can answer, he might have even tested an Ncore to destruction on low impedance loads.
  If I was to hazard a guess, I wouldn't be surprised to see the protection circuitry kick in with loads of this kind and their associated HIGH current levels.
Scotty

Yep , hence my question , anyway 20k Accuphase's are excellent sounding  amplifiers , anyone wanting to swap for a mono pr of ncore's I'm game ..


Regards ,
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhobba on 2 Jul 2012, 12:46 am
This thread is for listening impressions, and I gather that is your "impression".  It is not fact, however; in my system I clearly stated that I needed more power (current or voltage, not sure) to produce the dynamics that my KWA-150's produce.  My speakers are different than yours, etc.  I brought up the idea of bridging them.

Hi Ted

Valid point.

And yea - it was a comment based on listening impressions - not a technical analysis.

A 1 ohm load is wild and yea I do not know how it would handle that.

Thanks
Bill
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bruno on 2 Jul 2012, 12:44 pm
It drives just over 200W into 1 ohm. I haven't done any distortion measurements or listening tests under those conditions. If the 2 ohm data can be extrapolated it should still sound fairly respectable. What I can say is that the overcurrent protection is more audible than clipping. So until someone actually tries it I'm not going to make any predictions as to how meaningful a pairing of NC400 with Scintillas is.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jacq. on 6 Jul 2012, 12:09 pm
Here is a short review that I also posted on DIY Audio;

''Thumbs up Short NCore listening impression
I was invited to my verry good friend Marq the other day to audition is new set of 4 NCore used verticaly. Marq is a long time avid AUDIOPHILE and a VYNIL lover. A little more than a year ago he had made a switch from a PassLab amp to a double set of UCD400hg+xr which sounded much more alive. To his saying the difference is now just as steep with the NCore.
From my short audition all I can say is that most of the comments made here are what I heard; nice highs without being emphasize, yes a more distant sound stage but aren't all verry well regarded high end equipment do perform that way, but most of all extreme control in the bass department and on the entire audio range with dynamics galor, low level detail etc..

Basically for me it resumes to two words; CONTROL and COMPOSURE.

Gongratulation to Bruno and is team and a big cheers for is contribution to the DIY community. ''
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Airborn on 10 Jul 2012, 11:48 pm
I was looking over the thread and noticed there haven't been any listening impressions from the tour guys for about 10 days. :o  How's the tour going?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 10 Jul 2012, 11:58 pm
I was looking over the thread and noticed there haven't been any listening impressions from the tour guys for about 10 days. :o  How's the tour going?
It's going well.  4 days in shipping.  3 days listening.  a1p1 said he is working on it and should have it done in a few days. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Airborn on 11 Jul 2012, 12:05 am
Great, looking forward to it.  I can only listen vicariously until I get mine built... :green:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a1p1 on 11 Jul 2012, 02:34 am
I want to thank Jason for his generosity in providing his NCore NC400 amplifiers, and his considerable amount of time putting on such a tour.  Truly remarkable. 

My system:
MacBook Pro
Analog Research Technology USB-SPDIF converter
LessLoss DAC 2004 MkII DAC
SimAudio Moon P-5 preamplifier
Clayton Audio M-300 monoblock amplifiers
GR Research/AV123 LS-9 speakers
Running Springs Audio Jaco Elite power conditioner

The Claytons were formerly Jason’s and have been in my system for the past five months.
I’m not terribly verbose or prone to hyperbole and find writing up a review to be a bit of chore, but it’s the least I can do as requested per the tour. 

I was really only able to dedicate one day listening to the NCore amps.  They played throughout the day with active listening for 3-4 hours.  I listened to a significant amount of Radiohead, Sigur Ros, The Walkmen, and Explosions in the Sky during that period.  Radiohead is always good to show off a system.  The last two Walkmen albums are also well recorded.  Sigur Ros can be angelic, but can also get a bit bright.  They also build up slowly into huge crescendos (if that’s the correct term), which can get messy.  Explosions in the Sky have these traits as well. 

The NCores are dynamic, fast, and controlled at low and high volume.   They are engaging at low volume (difficult) and don’t fall apart when pushed.  I never felt like they ran out of power; 108dB peaks (hearing conservation!).

As has been stated many times before, the NCores are damn neutral top to bottom.  Bass is great; very well controlled, nothing flabby here.  Treble is clean and clear; not bright.  Midrange is good, but this may be where they are a bit lacking.  Honestly, I can’t quite put it into words; writing was never my strong suit.  Maybe it’s not the midrange, hell it’s hard to nail it down, but my gut tells me that’s part of it.  The NCores are recessed and/or flatter in comparison to the Claytons incredible depth.  There is just more “meat” to the Claytons and that makes them more engaging.  The Claytons could give me goose bumps on the final track of Sigur Ros’ ( ) album, the NCores couldn’t.  Same for Radiohead’s Pyramid Song.  That’s what I’m after.  Is it the Claytons Class A topology?  Their huge current capacity (60A continuous/ 100A peaks!)?  The additional headroom of having 300W versus 200W? Who knows?

These criticisms are mine, that’s all, and really pretty minor. 

Best,
AP
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 11 Jul 2012, 04:49 am
AP,

No need to apologize that was what the tour is for. Happy you like Claytons, they are a formidable amplifier. Great review.

Best,

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 11 Jul 2012, 06:22 am
I remember the ad for those. Nice looking amps, and well reviewed. 

:thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 11 Jul 2012, 03:34 pm
I remember the ad for those. Nice looking amps, and well reviewed. 

:thumb:

You should do a review of the Clayton versus the Ncore based on the reviews you have read.  That would be entertaining.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a1p1 on 11 Jul 2012, 04:04 pm
You should do a review of the Clayton versus the Ncore based on the reviews you have read.  That would be entertaining.

The best amps I've never heard. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: a1p1 on 11 Jul 2012, 04:43 pm
AP,

No need to apologize that was what the tour is for. Happy you like Claytons, they are a formidable amplifier. Great review.

Best,

Anand.

Anand,

I'm not apologizing.  I think the Claytons are better amps.  My point is that my review, like any other review, is just one opinion.  I know you get this.  The overzealous NCore fans with the "game changer" mentality, playing scorekeeper of the latest amp slayed by the mightly NCore, while treating positive reviews as gospel are a disservice to the NCore. 

AP
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 11 Jul 2012, 04:58 pm
AP,
Thanks for that review.  As I listed in my review several pages back, the Claytons (as well as my Modwright 150 monos) are two of the best amps I've ever heard.  So are the NCores, bu they didn't unseat my Modwrights.  They are great little amps, and I'd love one for my center channel in my 5.1 dedicated setup, as well as maybe replacing my McCormack as my surround amp in same setup; bridged feedback will be needed (Serengetiplains is doing that right now) to understand whether the extra bridging power puts the necessary meat on the bones (and dynamics) that I require.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: BruceD7575 on 11 Jul 2012, 05:02 pm
It's worth noting from a value standpoint that the M300 monos retail for $13.5k (at least according to one review I saw). Of course, you can't put a price on goose bumps!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 12 Jul 2012, 04:46 am
Further impressions of the Ncore 400...
Most of my impressions of the tour model holds true for Occam's recent build. Yesterday we (3 pairs of ears)spent a few hours trying different signal input wiring, and the different resultant sound was easily audible and confirmed starkly my earlier impression that the Ncore does not do piano the proper justice, nor does it have the 'ambiance' in the upper range that Occam's ASKA possess in spades.
Its almost like the Ncore sound is too fast and leaves the stage before the notes have time to 'shimmer' away in the distance. I feel as though the Ncore shortens the decay time of the instruments, resulting in a slightly smaller music space. 
The test track we used with the piano was Holly Cole Trio, 'I can see clearly now".

Like any other amp, the Ncore kicks it up a notch with better quality front end, be it the source or even the wiring(4" in this case) carrying the signal from the input XLR to the amp module.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 12 Jul 2012, 05:42 am
My impressions are similar to yours, mj.  For me, the Ncore excels in what class D amps seem consistently to do well, particularly in the way it reproduces midrange ambiance and decay and thus tone.  I hear a continuity I quite adore, and in a degree to which I've not heard from other amplifier types.  That said, and despite other things the Ncore does well, I find its presentation a little flat, and leaves me wanting more.  It's as if the Ncore, like you said, drops the finer leading edges of the music---almost as if I'm listening through a cloth that veils high frequency decay, ambiance and subtle detail.

I suspect that this quality, which I've also heard by degrees but consistently in other class D amplifiers, relates somehow to FET switching nonlinearities, dead-time and mistiming.  Class D amps also make my ears ring with a subtle HF pressure.  Has anyone ever talked with another while playing a 20Hz tone through a subwoofer?  You can hear the other person clearly, but there's this evident pressure.  I think what I'm hearing with class D amps is something of the HF version of that.  Class D amps create a tremendous amount of HF noise.  Most of that is filtered off at the output, but some gets through.  Yes, not much gets through below 20KHz, but the human ear is imo sensitive at least a few doublings beyond that, where appreciable noise stills passes into the speaker.  That noise, I suspect, creates the pressure I sense, and in some difficult-to-identify manner intermodulates or disturbs the perception of HF space and subtle ambiance.

On those speculations---the related problems of switching and HF noise---I would predict that something would have to give in particularly in the HFs.  I'm unsurprised some people report hearing a certain flatness or lack of sparkle. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 12 Jul 2012, 05:56 am
serengetiplains, you don't happen to have an Iphone do you? When I downloaded RTA Lite from iTunes
the RTA program showed that the internal mic in the iPhone,in my case an iPhone 4, was good to 16.5kHz. I could clearly pick up the 15.734 kHz horizontal scan frequency of my 32in. JVC CRT television from 20ft. away even though I couldn't hear it at all. Being 57, my hearing quits at about 14kHz.
 The point is with some kind of measurement program in your computer or an iPhone you could look around for the presence of HF noise coming from your ribbon tweeter or emitted from the amplifier itself.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 12 Jul 2012, 06:30 am
That might be something I'll look into, Scotty.  Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: serengetiplains on 12 Jul 2012, 06:34 am
Btw, this 'softening' I hear with the Ncores seems a feature of PWM's digital cousin, SACD.  Though the SACD version comes across differently than as through class D, I would characterize both versions as some form or rounding of steep edges.  I hear a triangle, for instance, and I'm left wanting it to have hit that sparkle higher, then decay.  The upper reach and peak of that sparkle-decay-pyramid is missing.  The bottom part of that pyramid---sounding pretty good, but no (zing).
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Big Red Machine on 12 Jul 2012, 11:02 am
My impressions are similar to yours, mj.  For me, the Ncore excels in what class D amps seem consistently to do well, particularly in the way it reproduces midrange ambiance and decay and thus tone.  I hear a continuity I quite adore, and in a degree to which I've not heard from other amplifier types.  That said, and despite other things the Ncore does well, I find its presentation a little flat, and leaves me wanting more.  It's as if the Ncore, like you said, drops the finer leading edges of the music---almost as if I'm listening through a cloth that veils high frequency decay, ambiance and subtle detail.


This is pretty close to my impression when I compared to my amps.  The ncore is a good value but will need some work to have the top end I have with my amplifiers.  I think Maxcast felt the top end was also missing something as well when we listened at my place with Tom's amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Srajan Ebaen on 12 Jul 2012, 02:55 pm
Not having heard the NCores for myself, here's a question for those who have: do you think these last observations regarding the subjective truncation of the finest decays could be a function of overdamping? Bruno's output impedance specs are some of (if not the) lowest in the industry and apparently linear across the bandwidth. Given that most speakers won't have been designed for that just because it's not been the norm to encounter such amplifiers... is it possible that such extremely low output impedance (which on paper would seem to be the holy grail) is perhaps not the best thing for small lightweight drivers like tweeters and some midranges?

Just a thought and question to those who've spent time with these amps  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Letitroll98 on 12 Jul 2012, 03:14 pm
Not having heard the NCores for myself, here's a question for those who have: do you think these last observations regarding the subjective truncation of the finest decays could be a function of overdamping? Bruno's output impedance specs are some of (if not the) lowest in the industry and apparently linear across the bandwidth. Given that most speakers won't have been designed for that just because it's not been the norm to encounter such amplifiers... is it possible that such extremely low output impedance (which on paper would seem to be the holy grail) is perhaps not the best thing for small lightweight drivers like tweeters and some midranges?

Just a thought and question to those who've spent time with these amps  :thumb:

Could very well be so.  With Magneplanars I didn't feel like there was this emptiness in the upper registers and I really didn't have enough one on one time with dynamic speakers to make that judgement.  There was an utter colorlessness to the amp that may leave some wanting.  Other class D amps I've heard would be colored white, the Ncore was clear, some may want a bit of color added to their presentation.  The lack of color, or interaction with the speaker, may be related to the ultra low impedance of the amps.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 12 Jul 2012, 03:31 pm
This was exactly the question Eric Hider asked me the other day on the phone as I was arranging for a DAC update. He suggested one could tried adding some resistance on the outputs to see what kind of difference that would make. He and I were talking more about dynamics in general, but I think it might apply to the sparkle that has been mentioned here.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 12 Jul 2012, 04:00 pm
Not having heard the NCores for myself, here's a question for those who have: do you think these last observations regarding the subjective truncation of the finest decays could be a function of overdamping?

... is it possible that such extremely low output impedance (which on paper would seem to be the holy grail) is perhaps not the best thing for small lightweight drivers like tweeters and some midranges?



I think that this is a very plausible suggestion too. I definitely got the feeling that the bass on my VR-4s was ruled with an iron grip by the ncores. And I wonder if what some folks are reporting in the midrange (it being perhaps a bit lett fleshed out compared to other amps, as was my experience too), could also be a result of overdamping. Not that there aren't other potential explanations, but this one passes the sniff test at least.

So what we need now is a speaker designed with an amp with such low output impedance (= high damping factor)....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 12 Jul 2012, 06:04 pm
Off topic speculation. :thumb:
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Jul 2012, 06:07 pm
This is now off topic.  Please keep this thread for listenign impressions.  Feel free to start a new thread if you wish.   :thumb:

Thanks.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: JM on 13 Jul 2012, 04:36 am
Will there be another tour? I'd love to hear the NCores...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 13 Jul 2012, 10:48 am
Maybe i missed this but did anyone compared the Ncore to a Class A solid state amp? I know dynamics in bass might suffer on some speakers with the low watts available in class A but i wonder if the Ncore can deliver or come near the sweetness of a class A. I'm considering a powerful amp for the low frequency driver of my speaker and class A for mids and highs the time being.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 13 Jul 2012, 12:40 pm
Maybe i missed this but did anyone compared the Ncore to a Class A solid state amp? I know dynamics in bass might suffer on some speakers with the low watts available in class A but i wonder if the Ncore can deliver or come near the sweetness of a class A. I'm considering a powerful amp for the low frequency driver of my speaker and class A for mids and highs the time being.
Yes, JTWRace had Clayton M300 Class A amps which are about as good as it gets or at least right up there.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 15 Jul 2012, 12:21 am
Yes, JTWRace had Clayton M300 Class A amps which are about as good as it gets or at least right up there.
And...? How did it compare? Any link to the thread? A search revealed not much.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 15 Jul 2012, 12:35 am
And...? How did it compare? Any link to the thread? A search revealed not much.

?? AP's tour review, the last one in this thread, a few posts ago, is exactly that (Clayton Class A vs Ncore)! ?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: studley on 15 Jul 2012, 04:49 pm
I DIY'd an F3, F4 monoblocks, Aleph J, and a couple of F5's, all gone or disassembled now, so I can't compare directly but I spent a lot of time with each of them. The NCores might be a distant cousin sonically to the F5 (not the others), but from memory the NCores have more power, more body in the mids, and are just more real and natural sounding than any of those amps. They never seem to breathe very hard either.
Tom,  I was very interested in your comments above as I'm a First Watt fan; I've heard an F3, own a pair of DIY F4 monos and have all the parts to build the F5X.  What I particularly like in addition to the pure clean sound is the liquidity and palpability (these are the best words I can think of to convey what I mean) of the sound the F4s can deliver.  By all accounts the F5 is even better, so the F5X should produce truly gorgeous music.   So, against that background what I really want to know is do the Ncores produce that same liquidity / palpability ?  (This assumes of course that you can identify and recall the sonic characteristics that I'm talking about!)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: studley on 15 Jul 2012, 05:33 pm
And to srajan if you are reading this, although you don't actually come out and say it in your review of the FW SIT 1s, it's fairly clear you regard them as the best amps you have ever heard (taken it as given that you are using them with speakers that are happy with 10 wpc),  so despite the huge difference in power I trust you will be comparing the quality of the sound of the ncore 1200 Atsah amps with the SITs?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TomS on 15 Jul 2012, 08:25 pm
Tom,  I was very interested in your comments above as I'm a First Watt fan; I've heard an F3, own a pair of DIY F4 monos and have all the parts to build the F5X.  What I particularly like in addition to the pure clean sound is the liquidity and palpability (these are the best words I can think of to convey what I mean) of the sound the F4s can deliver.  By all accounts the F5 is even better, so the F5X should produce truly gorgeous music.   So, against that background what I really want to know is do the Ncores produce that same liquidity / palpability ?  (This assumes of course that you can identify and recall the sonic characteristics that I'm talking about!)
At this point it's probably just been too long with many other system changes as well. I definitely preferred the F5 to the F4 mono's I had, but it just ran out of steam.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 15 Jul 2012, 08:56 pm
Put a pot with water on top of the First Watt amps and you should have lots of steam.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Freo-1 on 15 Jul 2012, 09:19 pm
And...? How did it compare? Any link to the thread? A search revealed not much.

I think a better comparison for Class A amps against Ncore would be the Pass Labs XA series.  The XA series is often cited by tube enthusiasts as sharing many of the best attributes with tubes. 
 
Comparisons would be difficult at best, as the speakers used and the interaction with the room probably would provide much more of a factor than the actual amp itself.  The best one can get is rough idea, enough to see if having the amps in question are worth going through the trouble to get and compare in your individual system (which or course is the only real way to work it out).
 
Speaking of First Watt, I had a M2, which is a wonderful sounding amp.  However, after changing speakers (88 db/w), I had to get a XA 30.5, which has a LOT more headroom, and more neutral sounding overall.  It’s VERY difficult to get better detail and overall sonic character than Class A. 

 

 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: studley on 15 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm
Quote from: Freo-1 link=topic=105310.msg1112101#msg1112101 date=

 It’s VERY difficult to get better detail and overall sonic character than Class A.
[/quote

I absolutely agree: ALL the great sounding amplifiers I have heard to press (valve and SS) have been class A.   Hence my question to Tom. So now I'm relying on Srajan to make the comparison, and he is in a very good position to do so.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 15 Jul 2012, 10:15 pm
At this point it's probably just been too long with many other system changes as well. I definitely preferred the F5 to the F4 mono's I had, but it just ran out of steam.

I have had the XA30.5 and multiple First Watt clone amps in my current system at various times.  While all were good amps, none could and did replace my Atma- Sphere amps.  The Ncore amps are the first non-tube amp that might actually push the MA-1's out the door.   :o

I have had the Ncore amps back in the system for a few weeks now and I continue to be impressed and very happy.  The combination of a really good tube preamp (Atma-Sphere MP-1) with the Ncore amps provides a very nice balance of warm and depth, with detail and speed.  It neither sounds lush or lean - just really well balanced!

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Freo-1 on 15 Jul 2012, 10:36 pm
George, what speakers are/were you using while reviewing the various amps?  To me, the speaker’s overall load plays a large part in one’s overall impressions.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 15 Jul 2012, 10:45 pm
Freo-1,George has his system's components listed under the systems link below his avatar.
Go thou and do likewise.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Freo-1 on 15 Jul 2012, 10:59 pm
Freo-1,George has his system's components listed under the systems link below his avatar.
Go thou and do likewise.
Scotty

Scotty, given how often we all upgrade/change out equipment, thought it prudent to ask what speakers were used during the evaluation (especially if they were changed along the way).  :lol:
 
I will post the cunnent line up.  8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 15 Jul 2012, 11:14 pm
If I am not mistaken George said he used the Ncores on the top of his Vandersteen 5As, which is 100Hz and up, the bottom is handled by the 5A's built in subs.
Scotty
Here is a link to page 2 of the Ncore review thread which is where you can George's review. Post # 30
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.20
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Freo-1 on 16 Jul 2012, 12:05 am
Good stuff. Thanks, Scotty!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Nick77 on 16 Jul 2012, 12:12 am
I have been listening to the tour Ncores for several days now. I will start off mentioning Pete’s power cords and offering a big fat thank you! I tried the Seven plus on my current ClassD amplifier in place of Wywire Juice2 and have to give the nod to the Triode PC. Fuller richer sound with slight increase in inner detail, all which I preferred to my current cord. Very highly recommended at offered price point, I will be adding these to my must have list. Thank you Pete!

My system consists of modded diy ClassD SDS amplifier with diy DCB1 buffer, Audio GD NFB2 DAC, Touch w/diy power supply and newly built Pi4 loudspeakers w/JBL 15”woofers and BC250’s, and Wywire cables.

Music:
Bob Belden
Diana Krall
Phillip Sasson
Michael Breckler
Stravinski
Brian Bromberg
David Benoit

I started out my class d experience with the ClassD CDS series and upgraded to the SDS series amps. The difference was the SDS series was clearly a step up in clarity and control. The Ncore’s could be described in the same fashion, a step up from the SDS series in increased clarity and control of the music. The bass output of the Ncore is definitely one of its strengths; I felt no need to employ a subwoofer while using the Ncores. The increase in clarity is from top to bottom. The specs become blatantly obvious when you listen to these things. They are brutally honest and clear and neutral.

My wife described them as more of a live experience and in your face. I was surprised she was able to so clearly describe their strengths. They are a little more in your face due to their prowess and better bottom end control.
They separate the instruments and pronounce every sound with distinction so micro and macro details come across clearly articulated. You don’t have to struggle to listen critically, all the music is there in bold fashion.

Are they perfect, no. I tend to agree with former comments that they seem a little flat, a tiny piece of music is lost, they seem to be so brutally neutral that a little slice of music is missing. My wife preferred the SDS amp and felt it was more musical, I tend to agree but could very very easily adapt to the strengths of the Ncore in a heartbeat. Can this slight miss of musicality be made up, I hope so, maybe preminum build components or slight modding, which a few are hashing out now. But really it is hard to fault them and I hope to have them in house someday soon. That complete control over the music and bottom end prowess will be greatly missed. Long live DIY!!

Big fat thanks to Jason for his generosity in sending these out on tour!!  :thumb:

 

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 16 Jul 2012, 03:11 pm
George, what speakers are/were you using while reviewing the various amps?  To me, the speaker’s overall load plays a large part in one’s overall impressions.

Vandersteen 5A's

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 16 Jul 2012, 07:26 pm
I started out my class d experience with the ClassD CDS series and upgraded to the SDS series amps.

Nick, as there are several different models of each, which model CDS and SDS Class-D amps were you using?

Thanks, Barry
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 16 Jul 2012, 08:05 pm
I have been listening to the tour Ncores for several days now. I will start off mentioning Pete’s power cords and offering a big fat thank you! I tried the Seven plus on my current ClassD amplifier in place of Wywire Juice2 and have to give the nod to the Triode PC. Fuller richer sound with slight increase in inner detail, all which I preferred to my current cord. Very highly recommended at offered price point, I will be adding these to my must have list. Thank you Pete!

My system consists of modded diy ClassD SDS amplifier with diy DCB1 buffer, Audio GD NFB2 DAC, Touch w/diy power supply and newly built Pi4 loudspeakers w/JBL 15”woofers and BC250’s, and Wywire cables.

Music:
Bob Belden
Diana Krall
Phillip Sasson
Michael Breckler
Stravinski
Brian Bromberg
David Benoit

I started out my class d experience with the ClassD CDS series and upgraded to the SDS series amps. The difference was the SDS series was clearly a step up in clarity and control. The Ncore’s could be described in the same fashion, a step up from the SDS series in increased clarity and control of the music. The bass output of the Ncore is definitely one of its strengths; I felt no need to employ a subwoofer while using the Ncores. The increase in clarity is from top to bottom. The specs become blatantly obvious when you listen to these things. They are brutally honest and clear and neutral.

My wife described them as more of a live experience and in your face. I was surprised she was able to so clearly describe their strengths. They are a little more in your face due to their prowess and better bottom end control.
They separate the instruments and pronounce every sound with distinction so micro and macro details come across clearly articulated. You don’t have to struggle to listen critically, all the music is there in bold fashion.

Are they perfect, no. I tend to agree with former comments that they seem a little flat, a tiny piece of music is lost, they seem to be so brutally neutral that a little slice of music is missing. My wife preferred the SDS amp and felt it was more musical, I tend to agree but could very very easily adapt to the strengths of the Ncore in a heartbeat. Can this slight miss of musicality be made up, I hope so, maybe preminum build components or slight modding, which a few are hashing out now. But really it is hard to fault them and I hope to have them in house someday soon. That complete control over the music and bottom end prowess will be greatly missed. Long live DIY!!

Big fat thanks to Jason for his generosity in sending these out on tour!!  :thumb:

Very nice write-up Nick.

There are a few of us who are using a tubed preamp with great results. 

Do you think that a tubed preamp could address your concerns this instead of modifying the amps? I don't know much about the buffer you are using...how would you describe its sound?

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 16 Jul 2012, 08:23 pm
George,

I'd love to hear more listening impressions of your Atma pre + ncore set-up and how that compares to your all Atma pre & amp driving the Vandys.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rajacat on 16 Jul 2012, 09:05 pm
Nick,

Nice well written review. :thumb:

It was very interesting that your wife actually preferred the SDS over the NCore. Is it possible that an amp can produce a surfeit of detail without discriminating realistically between the relative values of the micro and macro events like your ears do with live music? Could it be like in photography, during processing, in which the color values can be a little over-saturated so that they lose their natural values and appear somewhat out of sync with reality ?

..Roy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: earflappin on 16 Jul 2012, 09:19 pm
I think a problem with the NCOREs is that you hear your entire playback chain more clearly and that might not be to everyone's liking depending on the rest of your system and personal tastes. 

I have the SDS and NCORE amps and strongly prefer the NCORE.   I have consistently found with amps, DACs and PRE's that one person's distortion is another person's more full bodied sound. 

The good news is there is no right or wrong answer.  There is no IAS (internal audiophile service) that is waiting to audit your system to see if you have assessed your systems' performance accurately.   :lol:

 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: prokennex on 16 Jul 2012, 10:17 pm
Quote
George,

I'd love to hear more listening impressions of your Atma pre + ncore set-up and how that compares to your all Atma pre & amp driving the Vandys.
+ 1
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Nick77 on 17 Jul 2012, 11:30 am
Very nice write-up Nick.

There are a few of us who are using a tubed preamp with great results. 

Do you think that a tubed preamp could address your concerns this instead of modifying the amps? I don't know much about the buffer you are using...how would you describe its sound?

George

The buffer is the Pass Labs B1 buffer with DC coupled PS. Mine is the hotrodded version with all premium parts and Goldpoint attenuator. It is very neutral and resolute. It wasn't a problem of seeing thru my front end but rather not hearing the very last ounce of enunciation out of the amp and yielding a very slight flatness to the music. I was using single ended input with the rca adapters, I would like to think there was some small synergy issue. But this has been a minor complaint from more than one.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: zybar on 17 Jul 2012, 01:01 pm
+ 1

Will try and get something written soon.

I wanted to get more time with the amps before saying more.

George
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Triode Pete on 17 Jul 2012, 05:04 pm
I have been listening to the tour Ncores for several days now. I will start off mentioning Pete’s power cords and offering a big fat thank you! I tried the Seven plus on my current ClassD amplifier in place of Wywire Juice2 and have to give the nod to the Triode PC. Fuller richer sound with slight increase in inner detail, all which I preferred to my current cord. Very highly recommended at offered price point, I will be adding these to my must have list. Thank you Pete!

Thanks, Nick! My pleasure... My cords appear to synergize very well with Class D amps and I have many happy campers with Cherry's & Spectrons as well as others. Just this past weekend at the Capital Audiofest (Suite 347), we were running Arion Class D Hybrids (with a 6H30 input)... what sound! As my moniker implies, I'm a tube man but I really like these new Class D amps as the technology improves... I'm wondering how these NCore's would sound on 104dB efficient horns?

Cheers,
Pete


Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 17 Jul 2012, 05:19 pm
Thanks, Nick! My pleasure... My cords appear to synergize very well with Class D amps and I have many happy campers with Cherry's & Spectrons as well as others. Just this past weekend at the Capital Audiofest (Suite 347), we were running Arion Class D Hybrids (with a 6H30 input)... what sound! As my moniker implies, I'm a tube man but I really like these new Class D amps as the technology improves... I'm wondering how these NCore's would sound on 104dB efficient horns?

Cheers,
Pete

Piotr,

Czesc!

Macrojack has some very efficient horns. See his review http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105310.msg1076945#msg1076945

Do zobaczenia, na razie,

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 17 Jul 2012, 05:48 pm
And apologies in advance to Jason for going OT here, but congrats on the great Stereo TImes review Pete. I wish I'd spent more time playing around with your cables instead of just having them plugged into the ncores when they were here.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Hank on 18 Jul 2012, 11:17 am
I stopped by Nick77's for a bit to give a listen.  My comments aren't worth much, as the only way to have a valid opinion is to drop them into ones own system.  Clarity and control do seem appropriate words.
rajacat's allusion to color photography really rings true in my estimation of hi-fi gear:  I've been a SCUBA diver for years and am always telling people that color photographs are more colorful than the real life scene they depict, EXCEPT underwater in the ocean shallows, where the colors really seem vivid.
So, I think that if hi-fi gear presents us with a realistic listen, rather than a color photo vividness, then that's what we should pursue, because it's accurate.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Bear on 21 Jul 2012, 07:28 pm
Hey all,

I just wanted to pop in and let fellow lurkers know I finally had/ENJOYED! a very long listening session with the NCORE's last evening.  I will be doing some more listening this evening and tomorrow before I send them on early Monday.

The Triode power cords included in the tour are of exceptional quality as well.

I will post an actual review of the NCORE's later.

 :banana piano: :violin: :drums: :guitar:

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Jul 2012, 02:58 pm

I will post an actual review of the NCORE's later.
Great! 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 23 Jul 2012, 02:07 am
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108385.0;topicseen

Hey JT,

I see you moved my comments to another thread and called it some BS like "thoughts from people who haven't heard the Ncore" or some similar nonsense.

For the record , I have heard the Ncore and thought it sounded pretty good. I was merely commenting I the spirit of this thread where anyone who expresses less than glowing comments about the Ncore is softly accused of liking distorted or colored sound. I heard the Ncore and i understand how someone can prefer the sound of another amp.  Not that the Ncore was bad, it's just that different people have different preferences.

Also, it's funny that you are so caught up in the measurements of this amp.  You even accused manufacturers who didn't provide extensive measurements of ripping people off (in the Biggest Ripoff thread).  I dont recall you posting any measurements of the Dude preamp a while back when you raves about that piece.  Did I miss the measurements or do your opinions only apply to gear that you aren't extremely enthusiastic about? 

Just wondering.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Bear on 27 Jul 2012, 07:12 pm
Ok, a much belated review, my apologies with my tardiness.

discalimer:  I have virtually no exposure to quality gear, there are no decent shops in my area and I have led a sheltered life when it comes to quality gear. However, I have put together a very good sounding headphone rig and listened to lots of live music, both unamplified and amplified.

I was able to get in several hours of listening during my time with the Ncore amps.

First thing I noticed was that they were extremely quite, I could only hear a slight hiss with my ear on the tweeter. I listened to many different genre's and types of music and found these little buggers to be very dynamic, I kept my iphone db meter(i switched between two seperate apps and replayed the same samples multiple times and both apps were always within a db or two of each other with the same app varying a couple a db on the same peaks.  FWIW) on and monitored the peaks on many music samples.  At one point I was listening with peaks of 100 db just ahead of my listening position.

I did some a/b comparisons and listened to the same music samples over and over.  To my ears the low end definately had more impact and authority, not bloated or unatural, in fact, it is obvious that my current set up is not accurately presenting me this low end information, it is  missing from my current set-up.   I felt like on acoustic guitar cuts the tonality of the guitar sounded more natural.

One area I am unsure on is with upper register vocals they were not as "hot" compared to my own equipment(low end pro-sumer monitors of which I have identical powered and passive versions).  I am not sure which is correct,  the Ncore seemed more relaxed in this area.  I could easily contribute this to lower distortion and noise associated with the Ncore.

I much prefer the Ncore's and will put them in the running for consideration when a do finally upgrade all my gear.

The Triode cables Pete provided are overbuilt(im a fan) tanks.  Very substantial, they did not get in the way and were easy enough to manipulate.

A huge thank you to Jason and Pete for this opportunity as it is the only way I could ever find the time or access to listen to this type of equipment.


"When I hear music, I fear no danger. I am invulnerable. I see no foe. I am related to the earliest times, and to the latest."
Henry David Thoreau
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 28 Jul 2012, 03:02 am
Context please Mr Bear, would you mind listing the gear you used with the Ncore.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 1 Aug 2012, 04:03 am
Further impressions of the Ncore 400...
Most of my impressions of the tour model holds true for Occam's recent build. Yesterday we (3 pairs of ears)spent a few hours trying different signal input wiring, and the different resultant sound was easily audible and confirmed starkly my earlier impression that the Ncore does not do piano the proper justice, nor does it have the 'ambiance' in the upper range that Occam's ASKA possess in spades...

Which model AKSA?  I had the Naksa 100 (absolutely loved it) for several months and should be hearing my new Ncore Trinaural system tomorrow.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Barry_NJ on 1 Aug 2012, 11:29 am
Which model AKSA?  I had the Naksa 100 (absolutely loved it) for several months and should be hearing my new Ncore Trinaural system tomorrow.   

From Paul's review...


Amp - AKSA 100wpc Lifeforce power amp, bog standard, save for the addition of  Vishay MKP1837 .022uf Polypropolene caps [available from Mouser,Newark,Digikey,RS,Farnell...] bypassing very pedestrian Vishay MKT Polyester input capacitors. It sits on 3 Walker brass points on a mdf shelf, sitting on 3 original Stillpoints with 'top hats' sitting on another shelf on the Sanus stand.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 1 Aug 2012, 04:23 pm
From Paul's review...

Barry,
Yes, I remember reading that earlier, thanks for refreshing my not-getting-any-younger memory. 

Preferring the Lifeforce over Ncore is saying a lot.  My understanding is the Naksa 100 is definitely an upgrade over the earlier Lifeforce.  I'm doing my best to avoid having that judgement not affect my judgement/expectations.  The Naksa was among my favorite amps.  Obviously the amp/speaker/room/system interface affects judgements.  For instance, one listener preferred Ncore over his (estimate $11k/pr) Linn Klimax mono blocs (Chakra architecture).  I owned the Chakra 3-ch amp (two steps below the Kilmax).  Best I could tell (no direct A-B) the Chakra was better than the Naksa 100 in some ways but in other ways I preferred the Naksa.  We'll see.   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 6 Aug 2012, 01:48 am
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7264/7721956326_7faf53c930_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721956326/)
DZ3C0189 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721956326/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr

PLUG AND PLAY?

NCore NC400 Monoblocks are rated at 200 watts into 8 Ohms and 400 watts into 4 Ohms, but the diminutive size and svelt weight of these monoblocks hardly hint at the power within.  Compared to many 200 watt/8 Ohm class A monoblocks, the NCores simply do not appear menacing or impressive upon first view, so much so that I sympathize somewhat with those future NCore commercial builders who will likely deposit the modules into large and heavy chassis with impressive appearance in order to attract the buyers and charge $10K. 

At any rate, these are very simple designs with one XLR input, one power input, and one pair of binding posts.  These being class D and cool-running, many folks may assume these can be simply inserted into any old system, plug-and-play, so to speak.  However, while these monoblocks sounded good without much adjustments or tweaks, they really came into their own only after some careful tweaking and system matching.  One of the most important factors to the end sound quality was the use of a top-notch tubed preamp, for example. 

When used without a good tube preamp, the whole system sounded very clean with low-distortion and blistering speed.  There was nothing overtly missing or wrong with the sound, and in fact, so many things were technically superb especially resolution and imaging.  But alas, I was becoming more and more aware I was listening to great "sound," not necessarily to great musicians.  However, I do not intend this to imply the NCores were cold, harsh, or amusical; in fact they were superbly smooth while presenting tons of information in very finely-grained pixels.  These were some of the best solid state sounds I have laid my ears on over the ears, but you must understand, I usually run 3 watt 2A3 SET's.

In case some would like to blame the ancillary, the Weiss DAC 202U DAC straight into NCores is not too shabby, not to mention being a nice match visually.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8425/7721928980_8c698d3895_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721928980/)
DZ3C0197 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721928980/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr


NEXT CHAPTER

Sensing that I am in need of that special something called toobs, I inserted my extreme-tweaked, teflon-capped, Siemens 5814A-dropped Transcendent Grounded Grid preamp.  I would say this version sounds at least an order of magnitude better than the already-great stock version and leave it at that.  Now, the MUSIC coming into the room had verve, emotion, texture, girth, density, richness, and foundation, but mostly importantly, crazy involvement. 

It's this last element that makes you keep wanting to play album after album, playing music into the wee hours.  This is the so-called "magic" we are all seeking, and I am here to tell you that a good tubed preamp mated to NCores brought it home in a big way.  Sure, it's possible a tiny fraction of literal transparency to the recording was lost, but the transparency to the original musical event was certainly enhanced tremendously, to the point one no longer cared about these technicalities. 

THE GOODS

With the tube goodness seemingly unlocking the key, the NCores strutted what "IT" does best, namely, endless resolution without any grain or peakiness, effortless dynamics, bass power and extension, low distortion, and a sense of velvety sophistication often difficult to find with solid-state amplification. 

It was also gratifying to see how turning up the volume did not result in sound breaking apart into a mess.  The overall smoothness and clarity remained intact at higher volumes while increased decibels enhanced apparent detail and dynamic punch as expected.  It would be interesting to see how the higher-powered OEM NCore modules will turn out in terms of sound quality vs. power output.  As we all know, higher power does not necessarily mean better sound; in fact, often the opposite is true.  Of note, I have not thrown the NCores truly difficult-to-drive speakers, as the worst I tried was 86 dB/8 Ohm speakers and my main speakers are true 96 dB/7 Ohms to accomodate my 3 watt SET.  I have seen some reports that NCores truly shine brighter with higher impedance speakers, so those with "4 Ohm" speakers that dip into 1 Ohm in places may not necessarily share my enthusiasm with the NCores.

THE COMPETITION

Over the years, I have gone through a bevy of amplifiers including other class D amsp such as Spectron Musician, but one of the few solid state amps I still keep around is Marsh Sound Design A200S.  Marsh amps are highly respected in the industry, and they utilize low-noise FETs in balanced, complimentary differential input circuit, matched to high current, paralleled, bi-polar power transistors.  A200S is rated at 120 watts into 8 Ohms and is one of the nicest class-AB amps out there, especially at the modest price. 

Directly comparing Marsh to NCore, it was interesting to hear how they do not differ a huge amount.  Yes, they sound different, but they sounded similar enough that no major change in cables, preamps, etc were needed in order to balance out the sound.  Both are excellent amps, with both excelling in detail resolution especially.  After going through my music collection, the difference between them reminded me of the difference between simple oversampling DAC vs. upsampling DAC.  Marsh was like an oversampling DAC at straight 44.1 kHz, with bolder but coarser grain structure that is a bit more forward and involving.  Musical energy was seemingly centered more in mid to lower-midrange with not the Nth degree of extension into the extremes. 

NCore was like an upsampling DAC with 44.1 kHz upsampled to 96 kHz.  The said musical energy in mid/low-midrange spread upward and downward to give more air and silkiness up top while the bass region became more pronounced and powerful.  Grain structure became finer and smoother, with overall a more sophisticated mien.  The downside was a bit of diminished presence and forwardness in the mids, which some systems may not synergize well with, especially if there is no tubes anywhere in the system.  But overall, the degree of resolution and smoothness that seemingly co-existed was quite impressive and ear-opening. 

When using my 97dB sensitive speakers to compare NCores to my highly-modified 2A3 SET, despite the seemingly Herculean resolution and clarity of NCores, I am again reminded why some love the top-notch flea-power SET's.  When female singers whisper a phrase, the SET is able to convey a few more smacks of saliva and more of the microdynamic ebb and flow.  There is a little more life, light, and emotion that comes across, making it a bit easier to forget you are listening to a stereo system.  Now, even on 97dB speakers, 3 watts is not going to give you massive dynamics of NCores, and there is no way the SET can come anywhere close to the bass prowess, which is why I usually actively bi-amp with solid state on bass. 

For the vast majority who have no access to true high-efficiency speakers, do not want to mess with active bi- or tri-amplification, and don't "need" what great SET tube amps bring to the table, then the NCores should definitely be on the proverbial extremely short list.  Before the OEM's blow the price bracket of NCores wide open, DIY'ers should make as much out of NC400 modules as possible, but a high-quality tube preamp should be part of the equation I believe. 

That's some GOOD stuff, Hypex  :thumb:

 

 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 6 Aug 2012, 01:48 am
Photos
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Aug 2012, 11:23 am
Thanks Jon. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Aug 2012, 12:55 pm
PLUG AND PLAY?
At any rate, these are very simple designs with one XLR input, one power input, and one pair of binding posts. 
It's important to note that these are my build and anyone can, if they choose, to make them bigger, prettier and more complicated.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 6 Aug 2012, 02:33 pm
Jason, are these a new build for the tour? It is stated above they have XLR but the amps that went out on the tour earlier had only RCA and needed a XLR adapter. If they only have XLR that is great as it has been stated by Bruno that the amps sound their best as XLR only.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Aug 2012, 02:34 pm
Jason, are these a new build for the tour? It is stated above they have XLR but the amps that went out on the tour earlier had only RCA and needed a XLR adapter. If they only have XLR that is great as it has been stated by Bruno that the amps sound their best as XLR only.
No, these are the same amps that have been on tour for 5 months.  They only had an XLR and needed RCA > XLR adapter.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: hifial on 6 Aug 2012, 02:36 pm
OK, my mistake. It was the other way around. Thanks.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rocket_Ronny on 6 Aug 2012, 02:54 pm

Excellent review Jon.

What Set amp and speakers are you running?

Did your tube preamp bring any color to the mainly transparent NCore, or was it just more body, roundness, presence, liquidity?

Rocket_Ronny
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 6 Aug 2012, 06:08 pm
Great review, Jon, thanks!

For reader's context: I was first smitten by Marsh's amps when hearing one years ago, around the time of the killer TAS review.  They are still among the best amp values, similar to same-vintage McCormack and Chinese-built French-YBA-designed Audio Refinement (I own the latter, exact same power rating as your Marsh).  All three of the above amps sound very much alike, with many of the best qualities of both tubes and SS.  Inside my YBA reminds me of a Levinson in layout and build quality.     
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 6 Aug 2012, 08:27 pm
Excellent review Jon.

What Set amp and speakers are you running?

Did your tube preamp bring any color to the mainly transparent NCore, or was it just more body, roundness, presence, liquidity?

Rocket_Ronny

I'm currently using extreme modified Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, with pretty much every cap and changed out to teflons whenever possible and EML 2A3 tubes.  My main speakers are high-efficiency and one-of-a-kind, custom, DIY jobs using ribbons, Focal 7K2 midrange units. 

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8427/7721942326_69e34d6b33_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721942326/)
IMG_8170 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7721942326/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr

As far as tube preamp bringing "color," the answer is No if one is referring to colors as in colorations, i.e. casting warm/orange color and bloat to everything. My preamp mainly seems to work in the dynamics domain, both micro and macro, to embue a sureness and forcefulness to small and large notes, which in turn gives you more dense, rich, and harmonically full 3-D type of images that "jumps out" easier.  I would not use the grounded grid preamp in stock form in my system, as I found it robbed too much transparency, but I modified it until I was satisfied  :thumb:

If interested, my preamp mods are documented here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=72652.0
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 6 Aug 2012, 09:27 pm
Jon, speakers uber-licious!   
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: PeteG on 7 Aug 2012, 12:02 am
Jon, speakers uber-licious!   

I agree, very nice.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 7 Aug 2012, 12:13 am
Jon, do you have a link to a pdf doc on the Focal 7K2 driver I was wondering what it's raw frequency response looked like as well as the Thiele/Small parameter?
Thanks,
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 7 Aug 2012, 01:18 am
Jon, do you have a link to a pdf doc on the Focal 7K2 driver I was wondering what it's raw frequency response looked like as well as the Thiele/Small parameter?
Thanks,
Scotty

Can't seem to find the original pdf doc.  All I could find was some info:

CONE TYPE:Polykevlar
SIZE:            7in
SPL(2.83v):   95.8db
WATTS:           100
Z:             6ohms
FS:           99.9hz
RANGE:      100-4Khz
VAS:          9.1ltr
Qts:             .34
Xmax:       +/-3.5mm
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: *Scotty* on 7 Aug 2012, 01:30 am
You have one unique driver from Focal in the 7K2. The best I have seen from most of them have been around 89dB 1w/m. I have a pair of 6W 4311 drivers from 6 years ago that I should have bought a total of 4 of and balked at another $260 dollars  :duh:
 I am guessing that the relatively high Fs of the 7K2 contributes to its overall efficiency.
Scotty
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 8 Aug 2012, 03:46 am
You have one unique driver from Focal in the 7K2.

I used to have the ubiquitous Focal Kevlar mid/bass driver in there before redesigning around the 7K2.  Aside from the efficiency improvement, the degree of improvement in resolution, micro-dynamic life, and clarity was out of this world.  Too bad one can no longer buy these drivers.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jon L on 8 Aug 2012, 04:07 am

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7114/7737463214_b097e8db3d_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7737463214/)
DZ3C0185 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60017347@N03/7737463214/) by drjlo2 (http://www.flickr.com/people/60017347@N03/), on Flickr

I would be remiss if I did not mention the excellent Triode Wire Labs power cords that are graciously included in the NCore tour.  These braided power cables with Furutech plugs proved to be a great match for the Ncores and great cables in general. 

I would be rich if I got a quarter for every funky-sounding, amusical, heavily-colored power cord I have tried in my lifetime.  Even expensive audiofool power cords can have large colorations and deviations from neutrality, but these Triode Wire Labs cords refused to add undue "bass power," laser-like treble, extra-thick midrange, or airy sparkle when it is not in the recording. 

Sometimes cords with strong personalities can be exciting in the short term, but eventually they all become tiresome and annoying.  TWL cords straddled the fine balance between richness and clarity, with enough resolution of harmonic content to yield a naturally rich soundscape while the supple, smooth clarity did not curtail frequency extremes.  No narrow bands, e.g. low treble or upper mids, were emphasized, and the bass response had a nice woody yet firm bloom and power not present in generic cords.  I especially appreciated how the rich bass harmonics did not intrude upon the mids, which is where a lot of the thick, python-like audiofool cables fail. 

Highly Recommended with Ncores or in general  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjock3 on 11 Aug 2012, 10:07 pm
Jon,

What kind of adapters are being used, for xlr to rca?

Thanks'
Mark
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 12 Aug 2012, 12:02 am
Jon,

What kind of adapters are being used, for xlr to rca?

Thanks'
Mark

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105395.msg1077077#msg1077077
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjock3 on 12 Aug 2012, 12:11 am
Thanks Jason,

Must of missed tha post. Or senility is setting in

Mark
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 13 Aug 2012, 06:14 pm
Hey, you all told me this amp was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I kept reading how great the Ncore 400 was.   Playing with an ICEpower amp convinced me that class D would work in my system and I assumed that like the Logitech Touch, which led me to the Bryston BDP, the ICE amp would be replaced by a similar topology but in a completely different league.  Audiophile fever took hold and I sold my main amp and purchased parts for a dual mono build.  THEN, I started to read a few negative reports.  What did I do? 

Whew!  Glad so many folks were right -- the Ncore 400 is a remarkable amp.  It pulls me into the music like no other amp I’ve had in my system.  One example:  Playing a favorite song for “testing” purposes always leads to listening (“being immersed in” is a better description) to the whole CD.

Just one example:  I’ve listened to Changing Places from the Tord Gustavsen Trio many, many times and always after new equipment is broken in.  I’ve enjoyed the music with all previous equipment.  With the Ncore in place, it wasn’t so much that I heard new things that impressed me, although that certainly happened, but that my ambivalence about whether this music is Jazz, strictly defined, was finally ended (yes, it is Jazz when you can finally hear the communication among musicians and the nuance of tone and touch).

Unfortunately, DIY is not my thing, so I needed to reach out to the audiophile community.  Thanks, Mike, for the meticulous workmanship and great customer service.  If you ever give up your day job....

Thank you, Bruno, for making the modules available at a reasonable price to the DIY and SEDI (someone else did it) community. 

One interesting side note:  Mike installed an Audio Magic Pulse Gen ZX with a switch (at my request).  Makes A/B easy and adds flexibility.   http://www.audio-magic.com/Prod-PulseGenZX.html


In my system, the Pulse Gen makes the Ncore more vivid.  I enjoyed the stock Ncore for two weeks before throwing the switch and would have been happy with the stock form, but suffice it to say the switch is always on.  I’m hoping others give this a try.  Only one is needed in a dual mono configuration, so the cost ($400 each) is more reasonable that for mono amps.   

Happy listening.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 13 Aug 2012, 10:52 pm
Anyone using NCores with Magnepan 3.6 or 3.7?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 15 Aug 2012, 03:20 am
I got Jason's amps today. Right out of the gate, several things are obvious.
The most noticeable is the grip these things have in the bass range. It is outstanding. Tight, clean, VERY deep and dynamic. Best bass I've had in any of my systems. If I buy them I may jettison my sub. Very cool.
Next, the transient speed and transparency is as good as any I've heard. Fast and upfront.
Soundstaging is also very good, front to back and side to side. Instrumental definition is superb.
The top end is hard to describe. Excellent detail, but not pushed. It doesn't call attention to itself. Maybe a bit less airy and filigreed as the best I've heard, but natural sounding.
All this is very nice.
The last hurdle is the toughest- that of matchups with my speakers, room, etc.
On this point the jury is still out. My system has very little extra warmth or body to it, being perhaps a bit lean sounding overall. This amp moves the sound a bit further in that direction, compared to my long time fave Cullen modded PS Audio GCC-500 (modded IcePower amp- MUCH better than the stock PS Audio amps). The upper mids also seem pushed forward a tad in comparison. That's my wife's impression as well. This should not be seen as a criticism, just a comment on how things match up in my system, which has been fine tuned around the PS Audio and my Selah Tempesta speakers.
 I'll have the amp for a bit, and will have some friends over and maybe have a good tube preamp to slide in place.

I've no doubt, though, that these amps have some real strengths. At the DIY price they are remarkable. Matchups rule, in many ways. I have a feeling a good tube preamp might offer a good synergy with these amps, as Jon L has found. I'll post more after a few days.
 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Aug 2012, 01:11 pm
Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 15 Aug 2012, 01:42 pm
Yeah, thanks! And looking forward to hearing more about tube preamp experimentation  :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 15 Aug 2012, 02:06 pm
Yeah, thanks! And looking forward to hearing more about tube preamp experimentation  :D
Yes, there are several others that use a tube pre wtih positive results. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Jeff V. on 15 Aug 2012, 02:41 pm
Jon,

thanks for sharing your impressions.  I have looked forward to hearing how the amps sound in your system.  I just received my Tempesta kit which I will be putting together in the next week.  I built the Ncores about a month ago.  Currently they are powering Harbeth Compact 7ES3.  My preamp is a First Sound Deluxe MKII, with a vinyl only front end.  My phono preamp is the K&K which is also tubed & table is Garrard 401, SME IV & Ortofon Jubilee cartridge.  With this analog source the Harbeth / Ncore combo sound great.  The Ncores do a great job in my system.  I can't wait to compare the Tempesta with the Harbeth's.  I hope to read more about your time with these amps.

Jeff 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: doug s. on 15 Aug 2012, 02:59 pm
Yes, there are several others that use a tube pre wtih positive results.

not to take this off topic, but a tube preamp is a prerequisite regardless of the amp you're using, imo.  maybe w/something as clean as everyone says the ncore is, it's even more so?

doug s.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 15 Aug 2012, 03:04 pm
not to take this off topic, but a tube preamp is a prerequisite regardless of the amp you're using, imo.  maybe w/something as clean as everyone says the ncore is, it's even more so?

doug s.

??  Naw, that's not off topic!  Or an over-generalization!  or starting a non-Ncore debate!   :o
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 15 Aug 2012, 04:27 pm
Would the Ncore be ok using it with an LDR based volume control like the EVA II i own? Or any other passive pre? Anyone tried this?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: playntheblues on 15 Aug 2012, 04:45 pm
Nice going Doug    :guns: :flame: :peek:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 15 Aug 2012, 05:24 pm
Jon,

thanks for sharing your impressions.  I have looked forward to hearing how the amps sound in your system.  I just received my Tempesta kit which I will be putting together in the next week.  I built the Ncores about a month ago.  Currently they are powering Harbeth Compact 7ES3.  My preamp is a First Sound Deluxe MKII, with a vinyl only front end.  My phono preamp is the K&K which is also tubed & table is Garrard 401, SME IV & Ortofon Jubilee cartridge.  With this analog source the Harbeth / Ncore combo sound great.  The Ncores do a great job in my system.  I can't wait to compare the Tempesta with the Harbeth's.  I hope to read more about your time with these amps.

Jeff
I'm looking forward to your opinions. I think your front end may be a good match overall. The Tempestas should be a bit more incisive and a little leaner than the Harbeths. Their bass depth and power with the N-cores is something to behold- literally into  the top of subwoofer range. I hadn't expected it, but I am serious about getting rid of my sub if I get the NCores. The James EMB-1000 sub is pretty strong and clean into the mid 20s. The Tempestas don't quite reach that, but without the sub the bass is tighter, with better imaging, and I may be willing to trade a few HZ for that.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 15 Aug 2012, 06:02 pm
Would the Ncore be ok using it with an LDR based volume control like the EVA II i own? Or any other passive pre? Anyone tried this?

I'm putting my review together today and yes I used a battery powered Warpspeed and it worked extremely well.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 16 Aug 2012, 11:39 pm
Just a 4th inning update. When the amps arrived, I plugged in the first ICs at hand- they are anti-ICs with bullet plugs. As I mentioned in my previous post, they were a bit lean and forward sounding for my taste, and a tad untidy.
Well- I swapped the ICs for a pair an old pair of Acrotec 2050 6 nines copper ICs which I've always found to be sweet on top and a bit mellow in character. What a change! Instead of forward, now they are laid back and smooth, with perhaps a tad less detail, but very easy on the ears. I really like what I hear, and I'm sure the Acrotecs are not nearly the best matchup, but definitely a step in the right direction for my system.
These amps seem very revealing of this change. A good thing, I think. I feel you can dial these in a long way using cables, accessories, front end,etc. as the spices.
I'm using the preamp section of my PS audio amp, which is quite good, but far from the last word. There are many more flavors to try, with a tubed pre a definite candidate.
Best amps I've heard? I don't think so. That honor goes to a Shindo Cortese amp and Monbrison pre a buddy has in his system. They seem to let the atmospheric elements of the soundscape through to a greater degree. The Shindos  are 5x the price, though, and at 10 watts don't have the power to drive my speakers, nor do they have the extraordinary bottom end that the Hypex has.
Taken on their own terms, though, the sound is now VERY pleasing and hard to fault.
System:
Eastern Electric Plus DAC w/ Dexa discrete op amps- no tube
Ric Schultz modded Oppo BDP83 as transport
ASRock HTPC as Music server, running JRiver MC17 software
Audioquest Coffee USB cable
Zu Ash digital IC
Zu Event ICs
Acrotec 2050 ICs
Cullen Modded PS Audio GCC-500 integrated (ICEPower ASP1000 modules- 1000 WPC @ 4 ohms)
PS Audio Power Plant premier AC regenerator- all gear is powered by this, inc.  the amps
Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cables
Zu Mother, Mojo NOS copper and XPC-2 power cables, plus the cords packed w/ the amps
Selah Tempesta speakers




Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 17 Aug 2012, 04:45 am

Describing the Ncore is actually pretty difficult because it represents for me an even more vividly emotional presentation of sound than before. My Virtue is a very good amp, and as my first personal hi fi amp (I have heard other amps in various systems, but not for extended periods), it was also offered a jaw dropping, emotional connection to the music. I took it to its max capability. As my first amp I did everything I could to it, upgraded to an Astron LS-10a linear supply, then to a battery supply, then sent it in and had the preamp disabled, the high pass permanently engaged, and large ClarityCap MR’s installed.

But it’s clear now I’m listening to the Claritycaps with the Virtue, or rather, they are a large component of the sound, especially considering how drastic the change was between Auricaps, and then Sonicaps, and then ClarityCaps. With the Ncore, I didn’t get that sensation at all, rather the impression was I wasn’t listening to a capacitor coloration at all because the sound had none of the traits of the Virtue amp. The Ncores present an effortless and complete, high definition sonic hologram, it sounded perfect in my system, and it was pure magic. My source gear consists of an Emotiva Erc-2 player, and a Warpspeed ldr, battery powered. The Erc is also attributed neutrality with a highly revealing nature. I find that it is an extremely live and dynamic player, and the strong output signal (2V nominal, 12V peak to peak), combined with the passive nature of the LDR, worked quite well here. My speakers are Magnestand MMG’s with Jupiter Beeswax caps bypassed with Mundorf Silver in oil. The resulting sound of those devices, via Ncore, if it has to be described as having any consistent nature, is that of dazzling realism, given a light sweetening from the Magnestand crossover, just enough, to render everything immensely enjoyable, everything becomes an experience to be beheld. A sound that errs on warmth just so, with a dab of sweetness, but is utterly crystalline clear and utterly effortless. It’s very nice. And again, I feel I’m hardly describing it very well, because the sound was so much more than I could put into words.

This might do it better: When choosing my Virtue amp, I asked a lot of people their opinion, what they thought. My choice was between that and the SDS-470. I realized one was much more powerful than the other, but I wanted to explore amps and didn’t mind a lower power. That was in late 2010, when my speakers were 8ohm GR Insignia monitors and they didn’t need a whole lot of power. My main interest was getting the best sounding amp. The Virtue was given the nod every time.

Now, Anand, “Poseidon’s Voice,” a person who owned the SDS amps said that if the SDS was an 8/10, he would rate the Ncore 20/10, and I have to say the same thing about the Tripath, but how do you describe that? Now, to be fair, I now run those Magnestand MMG’s which like power, and the Ncore is capable of delivering far more of it, but even at very low level listening, between the two it was no contest. . such a tremendous leap in performance.One of my friends who is also now building a system, and was there and helped me pull an endless number of cd’s down from the rack,  said very shortly into it, “you should sell your other amp.”

..When they first arrived, I couldn’t wait to get them into my system. My very first reaction to the Ncores, standing right next to the speaker as I hit play on Jimi Hendrix’s Valleys of Neptune, was, “hey... the Virtue isn’t that bad!” This was followed immediately by, “ohhh wait... hold the door.” I sat down and began fiddling with the dial on my Warpspeed, up, wow, up more, oh geez, then way way down… just as impressive.

Over the next half hour, as the mono’s warmed up, I wrote these impressions on a notepad: “holographic, airy, thunderous, super control, LOUD with no distortion, quiet sounds just as awesome. 3D beyond belief, toe tapping, stomach clenching-amazing, strong imaging, getting EVERYTHING. No smog or clouds, like the clearest of blue days, delicate where needs be, startling dynamics, front back is deep. TISS TISS TISS TISS. magic”

Such control, they had a vice grip on every centimeter of those planars, and every single note, breathe, or whisp of smoke was translated straight through the speakers, whatever was there, you got, without any strain whatsoever, and every frequency clearly played, every piece in the recording could be isolated and heard to be clear.

 Turning the dial gave me a LOUDNESS I couldn't believe, I think I was too shocked to measure it, but in my small room it was stadium rock concert loud for sure. And the neat part was the Maggies just stopped getting louder at some point in winding the dial. Every speaker system I've ever used in my life, when you turn it up and get near max volume, it begins to sound like crap, and then distort. Not this, I'm still in shock over it, the volume went to ear bleed with no loss in sound quality, and then merely stopped getting louder. Never seen anything like that!

 Bass was MUCH lower than before (now useful to 40hz and into the 30’s), accurate beyond words, snarling, extremely defined. Enough to not really care about a sub for most music. Definitely enough to completely rock your world at the listening position and just grab your senses. I found my brow furrowed, lost in complete enjoyment, every time. These Ncores may necessitate Botox injections. There was nothing thin or clinical or “digital”. I would more likely use the word magic. Just a fun experience listening to music with these amps!

Really a very addictive sound, and revealing beyond anything I’ve experienced such that differences in recorded quality are far more apparent here. Some albums, for example an album I DL’d from Zune on my phone, and then ripped with my laptop, sounded incredibly lifeless and flat (but sounded great with the Virtue), but well recorded material was extremely vivid. Stringed instruments were greatest here, guitar played through this system might as well be a real guitar in the room. All the intensity of the plucked string, the full power and twang very palpable.

 Low level listening was a surprise all its own! Using the SPL meter on my phone I found even 55 dB avg as a satisfying listening level, bass remained live and zingy, highs clear and extended to just past the Orion nebula. It was just incredibly shocking how dynamic and powerful the music remained at very low spl’s. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

I packaged them back up on Monday, sadly, in fact the entire weekend I loathed the idea that I would be back to the old amp. Sure enough, after hearing the Ncores, I can now hear all the faults in my amp. It’s still quite a nice amp, and does the job very well. Heck, 8/10 ain’t bad. But at this point it’s like I’ve been to the mountaintop and I’ve seen the promised land. I look forward to having these back in my system and calling it a day on amps. I know Virtue plans to come out swinging in October with hopefully a 250 watt version of their amp, and that should be pretty interesting, and had I had one of those in the room, with the planned, I believe 55 volt battery system, that would have been a fairer comparison for sure.

 My Two.2 will end up in my living room after this system is done, powering something cool, and easier to drive. Tekton, Vapor Breeze, Soundfield Monitor 1's, something like that, its career is far from over. I'd also like to say it has run like a CHAMP this past year and a half. Not one itty bitty little problem with it.

I’d also like to say that my experience gave me great confidence in Emotiva source gear. I realize that I can achieve even higher performance with more money spent, but the Erc-2 was flawless, liquid, dynamic, as hard edged or as delicate as the music it played, and it was dead silent. Perhaps with 100dB speakers it might have been different,  I don’t know, I’ve not heard a high efficiency setup before, but there was nothing but dead blackness throughout. It worked extremely well with the Ncores and I can’t stress enough how enjoyable this combo was. Perhaps the high output voltage combined with the passive nature of the LDR had a lot to do with that.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 17 Aug 2012, 06:14 am
Since I can't edit posts currently, I have to make a correction here. I wouldn't say the Two needs something easier to drive, as it is well known the amp "prefers" to be pushed hard at 4ohms and sounds better at that impedance. And 57 watts per side is a decent level of power for mmg's. So rather than say I was pushing the Virtue too hard, it's more that the Ncores just had way more power on tap.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 17 Aug 2012, 11:15 am
Glad you enjoyed your time with the NCores and job well done with your review.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 17 Aug 2012, 11:56 am
Hi Rclark,

Nice review. It's good to hear the emotional connection you had with the Ncore continued after you had them in your possession.  I have one question.  Did you  write the review before or after you actually listened to them? :scratch:

Cheers

J
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 17 Aug 2012, 12:18 pm
Very well written Rclark. I enjoyed reading your prose.

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 17 Aug 2012, 01:01 pm
RClark:

Well written.  Nice to finally read some of your views on a piece of gear that you have actually listened to!  :lol:

Quote
Did you  write the review before or after you actually listened to them?
  :scratch:

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Atlplasma on 17 Aug 2012, 02:06 pm
Great review RClark and very consistent with my own experience with the amps. I've been holding off on commenting on the NCores until some of the "newness" factor wore off. I have Salk SongTower RTs, which are a 4 ohm speaker, a Dodd Buffer with 12 volt battery supply, a Schiit DAC, and Mac Mini music server (modded with solid state drive and 8 GB of RAM) running PureMusic. My cables are a hodgepodge with everything from Monoprice to Cardis.

I'm in a rental at the moment, and my listening room is less than ideal, but I've been really impressed with the NCores. They replaced a MacCormack 0.5 that sounded quite nice in my system. Perhaps the biggest difference I've noticed since installing the NCores is how well the amps handle LOUD. I can turn them up to earsplitting levels and the music never becomes oppressive (at least as I've perceived it before). Maybe it's because there is so little distortion in the sound. Who knows?

In any case, I'm looking forward to getting the NCores set up in a better space with some appropriate conditioning. The one issue I'm wrestling with at the moment is heat build up. I have the Silicon Ray enclosures so ventilation is pretty minimal. The NCores don't get extremely hot, and I realize that Bruno has advised that there is no real reason for concern, but I want to avoid stressing the components. I've put in small spacers to create more gap in the enclosure; and this change is improving convection air movement, but I'm not sure if it's enough. I'm considering putting in a very small computer cooling fan and would be interested to know if anyone has tried this approach.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 17 Aug 2012, 03:14 pm
Thanks guys. I didn't actually write it until yesterday  :roll: :D. Look forward to getting mine in Nov, looks like.

It was hard to write because the amps really are that good. I've actually written several reviews now, a few recently, and I think you will find them consistent.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjock3 on 17 Aug 2012, 03:59 pm
Nice review RClark, thanks for taking the time to share it with us.

Mark
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Chris Adams on 17 Aug 2012, 05:25 pm
Rclark, way to review!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 17 Aug 2012, 06:19 pm
error....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 17 Aug 2012, 09:42 pm
I think individuals should post as to their NCore/speaker combinations and the results.

I have a pair of Sony SS M9ED speakers that are a 4 ohm load and fired up my NCores Wed night and they are as good or better than any other amp that I  have owned (Theta Enterprise, Modwright KWA 150, Classe 2200, Rowland 501).

Maybe they are even better into high impedance speakers but how many of us have those?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 18 Aug 2012, 12:34 am
I guess I'm now a Koolaid drinking fanboy, as I sold my Cullen modded PS audio GCC IcePower amp and will order the N-cores in the next couple of days.
I've listened close to 20 hours, and am satisfied I can get where I want to go with them.
My listening grooup will hear them Sunday. After that I will post a wrap up.
I should add that I don't think they're perfect in every regard, but on balance they are the best for my needs and tastes for anywhere near the price.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mkcarnut on 18 Aug 2012, 08:30 pm
Rclark...I don't think I will be able to top your review in literary terms, regardless of how mine end up sounding.  I might just post, "uh, dude...what he said..."  It is particularly gratifying that you are also enjoying that ERC-2.  Mine is sounding amazing in my system, also.  That's a true "gem" to source the nCores and some Maggies.

But seriously, I do thank you introducing me to the nCores and for your review.  I look forward to getting my parts in late September.  Meanwhile, I'll be working on breaking in my Maggies and doing as much of the pre-build as I can.  Once those parts to come in, I can't wait to put them together!

Mark
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 19 Aug 2012, 08:13 pm
Yeah Mark, thanks! Could have used some edits, but I can't edit yet  :( . However, being as you will have 1.7's, our systems will be very very similar, so you should be in love. Only difference is I'm using an ldr (gonna let you try that) and you'll probably have an xsp-1 before I do.

The xsp is active so it will be interesting to note your impressions. It might be even better!

 Build your Ncores balanced, get an aes/ebu cable for your ERC and go balanced all the way. Definitely glad the Emo shined. I was worried I was going to have to step up to something else but the Erc-2 is a real deal cdp.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 20 Aug 2012, 12:51 am
Good job, Rclark. I was just pulling your leg earlier with my smart ass comments.  You put a lot of effort into sharing your thoughts about the amp and that's what this site is all about. 

Looking forward to your comments when you build your amps and get them into your system.

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Afterimage on 20 Aug 2012, 07:27 am
Yes, great review Rclark.  One follow up question.  You said material not well recorded sounded lifeless and flat.  So does that mean that you only enjoyed the NCore on well recorded material?  Most of us have our favorite music on not so good production or recordings.  Some systems can give them a little air, a little life.  From your review, it seems not so with the NCores. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: passingthrough on 20 Aug 2012, 05:08 pm
Quote
differences in recorded quality are far more apparent here.  Some albums... sounded incredibly lifeless and flat (but sounded great with the Virtue).

I had the same question Afterimage posted.  Can anyone else with the NCore comment on the degree to which they feel this is true in their system?  Might the "incredibly" be a bit overstated (said hopefully)?

I have the NCore on order and have designed a nice high-WAF case for living room use where I currently have a Virtue running also, since I now have more power-hungry speakers.  We listen to a lot of streamed Pandora and Spotify there so now I'm wondering if this is not a good location for the NCore after all?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 20 Aug 2012, 05:36 pm
Ummm.  Garbage in = garbage out. 

I like Spotify for discovering new music but in no way would consider it "hi fi" as my main source regardless of amp.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 20 Aug 2012, 05:54 pm
Here's my final report on my 5 days with the Ncores (~30 hours listening).
A recap of my system list:
System:
Eastern Electric Plus DAC w/ Dexa discrete op amps- no tube
Ric Schultz modded Oppo BDP83 as transport
ASRock HTPC as Music server, running JRiver MC17 software
Audioquest Coffee USB cable
Zu Ash digital IC
Zu Event ICs
Acrotec 2050 ICs
Cullen Modded PS Audio GCC-500 integrated (ICEPower ASP1000 modules- 1000 WPC @ 4 ohms)
PS Audio Power Plant premier AC regenerator- all gear is powered by this, inc.  the amps
Acoustic Zen Satori Shotgun speaker cables
Zu Mother, Mojo NOS copper and XPC-2 power cables, plus the Triode Labs 7 cords packed w/ the NCores
Selah Tempesta speakers
I had 4 other 'philes over yesterday, and we listened with the PS Audio IcePower amp section to get a baseline, then repeated the music selections with the NCores, all using the modded PSAudio preamp section, which itself is quite good- very transparent, fast and clean.
The reactions to the change were uniform- the differences were far from subtle. While the modded Icepower modules sounded clean, neutral, easy on the ears and powerful, by comparison they also sounded a bit tame and slightly muffled dynamically, something I never felt was the case in the past, but it was undeniable in this comparo.
Also, the NCores seemed to lower the bass cutoff by about a half octave - a huge amount. Whether this was measureable or a psychoacoustic phenomenon is unknown, but the effect is stunning. While the bass seems deeper, it is also clearer and more explosively dynamic. All on the panel couldn't believe that 7" woofers could produce clean, gut palpable sensations from pipe organ, kettle drums and synthesized bass, but hearing is believing. It is dramatic enough that there is a very good chance I'll get rid of my sub now.
Just as dramatic, the soundstage depth, detail and focus improved dramatically. With the PS Icepower amps, the soundstage seemed to terminate maybe 4 feet behind the speakers, with the N-cores it was 20 feet or more, with reverberant room reflections from large spaces WAY back in the field, and very cleanly rendered, at that. Instruments and ambient sounds were surrounded by a deeper black, offering superb contrast.
The top end was very finely detailed, yet the opposite of bright- the top end balance was simply right musically. I could understand how some might feel the top end laid back, though, but I see that as an absence of subtle grain and hash, at least as the RAAL tweeters display it.
 As I mentioned, the only amp I've heard that renders a soundstage better are 10 watt Shindos, with a Shindo pre, at around $20k retail. I feel I got a good chunk of that with these.
Here's some panel comments from emails I received after the sessions:

From Ken (Spectral pre/amp-> Ariel 10Ts, plus lots of great stuff):

That Hypex amp made an already impressive system MUCH more impressive.  Not a subtle improvement. 
Biggest strengths of the amp as I heard them: 
Bass reproduction:  very tuneful bass sound with great tone, weight, and energy
Natural tone:  the improvement was along the lines of having switched to a tube amp in terms of tone, but with the weight and power you'd expect from a SS amp
Greater coherence:  the sound was just more right, with instruments and voices being far more believable
You hit a home run with these - seriously.  I'd love to come back once you get yours put together.

From Ramesh:

Thank you much John for a memorable experience yesterday.
Bulmaro and I talked about the system all the way back home.
The amp was really impressive as Ken says, not to mention we were equally blown away by the speakers too.
It perfectly matched with the speakers and brought out the best.

I feel I must say something about any negatives, which from my perspective are few. As mentioned in an earlier post, they are sensitive regarding anything upstream. Using Anti-ICs, as I did when I first plugged them in, was too forward and a bit edgy in my system. If that couldn't have been ameliorated I would not have bought them. Going to some six nines copper Acrotec 2050 ICs, which I've owned for a long time and having often gone to when I need a dose of sweetness cleared that right up. The sound is certainly more forward than most other amps, but it is forward like live music is forward. On well recorded music the life of the music is right there, in an enjoyable way. However, this may not match up well in an already bright or forward system.
Obviously, the DIY aspect will exclude these from many people, but of course there will be a number of products based on this architecture, of that I'm sure, with different flavors- and much higher prices.
I look forward to trying more cabing, etc., with them to get the recipe right.

I shipped these on to TJHub today (and my PS Audio amp, which I sold over the weekend), and will place my order for NCores ASAP.

Thanks to Jason for this chance to hear them.


Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 20 Aug 2012, 07:38 pm
Jonbee I too noticed the same phenomenon with my own amp. As clear as it sounded before hearing Ncores, it seemed muffled immediately after reinstalling it.

Thanks Jackman, fella's, very kind words. I do love this hobby and enjoy reviewing gear. By the way, as far as recording quality, well it's just that the Ncores won't sugar coat a 128 mp3 download/laptop rip. It's still music, it still sounds good and you enjoy it because you enjoy that band. But it's just that it doesn't sound as good as some painstakingly recorded material. The Ncores aren't going to "make it sound worse", it's just showing you that the recording always sounded that bad.

 Don't fret about it. In my mind, this is what you want. If I had the Ncores here, I'd much rather listen to them, with their honest presentation of material.

 You'll still like your music a lot regardless, you just won't use the bad stuff as a demo.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mr_bill on 20 Aug 2012, 08:40 pm
Hi guys,
I have my NCores plugged into my Torus power conditioner.
Tonight, I will try straight into the wall.
I echo everything that Jonbee said.  The bass especially, is a very noticeable no brainer improvement.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 20 Aug 2012, 10:00 pm
I'm with what Rclark says about Ncore just not making poorly recorded or poor bitrate sound worse.  In fact, the poorer quality stuff is about the same proportion better with Ncore compared to my other amp as with good quality stuff.  I get at least some soundstage depth rather than none with my other amp, and the hash is greatly diminished, improving listenability of poor quality stuff.  But if there's not much to work with on the recording or bitrate, there's just not much to work with.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 21 Aug 2012, 02:30 am
jonbee and RClark,

Thank you both for the detailed write-ups. Very clear, informative and the descriptions that really capture the sound of these amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TJHUB on 3 Sep 2012, 10:51 pm
I received the tour amps a week ago from last Friday.  I immediately got them up and running.  I have heard my friend's pair of NCore amps in my setup twice before, and I've heard them in his setup 3 or 4 times.  This was the first time I was able to listen to NCore amps in my setup for more than an hour or two, so thanks for that Jason. 

Upon first listen, I heard exactly what I don't like about these amps...the bass.  To me, it sounds like the amps shift the timbre down, and this makes the bass sound deeper overall.  But this deeper bass doesn't sound right at all in my setup.  Bass guitar and upright bass just sounds wrong.  The notes are too deep, and there is a rather large loss of definition.  I lost a lot of the string and wood sound of the upright bass, and I honestly felt that much of the musicality from the bass was just lost.  I had a very hard time listening past this for my entire audition.  Luckily this issue doesn't affect all tracks.

As my listening time passed, I started to notice that I thought the vocals from just about every track I listened to sounded amazing.  The vocals were rich, defined, clear, and had a holographic position in the stage left to right and depth.  I found myself repeatedly thinking this throughout my entire listening time with the amps.

Speaking of the sound stage, the width of the sound stage was more narrow than I'm used to, and not much deeper.  One thing I kept noticing is that while the vocals had great separation in the sound stage, intruments did not.  The instruments seemed to be combined into a wall behind and around the vocals, but they were sort of smeared together with a lack of separation.  I heard this issue in just about everything I listened to.

The treble was actually better than I expected, but still not what I would call super realistic.  It's comfortable, and sort of sterile in some ways.  I don't mean to say that it's bad, more that it's lacking something.  I actually found the treble to sound good overall, but missing that something that grabs you.  One thing that was very clear to me is that the NCore's have a blacker background than I'm used to, but that blacker background comes from missing information.  There were many tracks that I listened to where I couldn't hear the ambiance or detail that I was used to hearing.  There were even midrange details I felt were rather attenuated or muffled. 

This brings me to another thing that kept happening to me.  I kept wanting to turn up the volume.  Why?  I think it was my attempt to hear the details I was missing or wanted to hear.  I noticed this the entire time I listened.  Luckily the NCore's sound good at higher volumes, so nothing ever got worse with high volumes.

All said, I only listened to the NCore's through that Saturday, and then packed them up.  Switching back to my Odyssey's Saturday afternoon showed me that the Odyssey's are the amps for me.  I thought everything sounded better with the exception of the vocals.  I'd say the vocals are quite a bit better on the NCore's.  I just couldn't find any love for the NCore's with the bass issues I was hearing combined with the missing detail in the treble (and some midrange). 

Since I just poo-pooed all over the NCore's, I thought I'd mention that I have heard other good things from them.  I'm just stating the larger issues that I heard in my setup.  I also think that you should all know that my friend that owns a pair of NCore amps was with me Saturday.  I believe he would agree with some of the things I stated, but know that he loves his NCore amps. 

One of the reasons for my friend coming to listen with me, was that he wanted to know how his amps compared to the tour pair.  Not so surprising, his pair sounded significantly better in some ways.  One way his pair was better was clarity.  This increased clarity really helped the treble detail and allowed much of the ambiance detail I was missing to come through.  The sound stage was clearly wider as well, and the bass issue slightly reduced.  Needless to say, my friend was feeling pretty good about all of this. 

So how can his pair of amps sound "better" than the tour pair?  He'd tell you it came from some small tweaks, but mostly from the IEC sockets and fuses used.  IEC sockets?  YES!!!  My friend brought his pair of NCore's to my house a couple of months ago when they were new.  One of the things he brought with him was a second pair of IEC sockets because he couldn't believe what he was hearing. 

We listened to the NCore's with the IEC sockets that came with his enclosures, and then a pair of cryo-treated ACME's.  The difference in sound was HUGE.  The supplied IEC's sounded distorted, and in a serious way.  How can a 3/4" piece of metal affect the sound so severely?  I don't know, but when he switched to the ACME's, the sound was significantly better.  There's a fuse story/issue built in here as well, but just know that he now uses a Furutech IEC socket and a better fuse.  Much of the improved sound his pair clearly has over the tour pair of amps comes from these components.  Just know that the difference is very far from subtle, and on two different systems.

We also both wanted to experiment with the supplied Triode power cords to see what differences they provided for the NCore amps and my Odyssey's.  We started by swapping the Triode's with my friend's Signal Cable power cords.  The change in sound was significant.  The Signal Cable's sounded hollow which affected the overall sound in a rather negative way.  We then tried my Pangea AC-9's, and it was clear that the Triode's were down right amazing.  I have NEVER heard a power cord affect the sound of a component like this before.  There was nothing subtle about the differences, it was more like listening to a completely different component.  I really found this rather disappointing. 

The reason I was disappointed was that I was thinking trying the Triode power cords on my Odyssey's would mean that I'd need to find $1,000.00 for a pair of Triode's for myself.  Thank goodness this was not the case on my Odyssey's.  The AC-9's did just as good, if not better in some ways than the Triode's.  I can't begin to state how happy this made me.  But while the Triode's did little to nothing for my amps, just know that what they do for the NCore amps (both pairs we had) is HUGE!  If I had NCore amps, I'd have to find a way to own a pair of Triode power cables to go with them.  They are that good!!

Sorry if this "listening impression" has holes in it.  I just wanted to be brief as I could write in great detail about many of the tracks I used.  I should have written things down while listening, but I had no idea that Audio Circle would be down.  My comments are likely to not impress my friend either, but we'll let him clarify anything he'd like to address.  Sorry... :oops:

In the end, I was very happy to get to hear the NCore's in my setup for a longer period of time.  I was also very happy to get to hear what the Triode power cords did for my amps.  This is not something you get a chance to do often, and I really appreciated the opportunity.  If my friend can improve on the bass issue, I'd love to give the NCore's another shot.  I'm glad I ended up being happier with my amps over the NCore's, but that's honestly NOT what I was hoping for...long story...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 3 Sep 2012, 11:09 pm
Great review TJ. Thank you for your write up. You don't know what works in your system until you try it. That's why this tour rocks.

Best,

Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: roscoeiii on 3 Sep 2012, 11:11 pm
Speaker-amp synergy is also huge, making it surprising that there haven't been more less than glowing reviews of the ncores. TJ are you still using the Salks listed in your system profile?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: TJHUB on 3 Sep 2012, 11:19 pm
Speaker-amp synergy is also huge, making it surprising that there haven't been more less than glowing reviews of the ncores. TJ are you still using the Salks listed in your system profile?

Synergy is huge, no doubt.  And yes I am still using the Salk HT2-TL's.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 3 Sep 2012, 11:20 pm
More evidence, if any was needed, that when you're working with fine systems matchups rule the day. It may not be comforting to know that if you just buy well thought of expensive gear and hook it up you can get average or even terrible sound quite easily, and that trial and error, expensive and time consuming as it is, in the end is the only way to satisfaction.

In my system, the nCore bass is the best I've heard, hands down. Deeper, but also more true to life. But- my room has its' own signature, and that always has been a major contributor in the 200 hz. and below region. And so it goes.
Nice writeup of your findings.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjock3 on 3 Sep 2012, 11:45 pm
What???
Nice honest write up Terry. I am liking mine, in my system. I heard the bass information change in Terry's and it was a significant change in the detailing in the Patricia Barber Beat Goes On track.

Thanks for the review, and thanks again to Jason for his kindness in sending these out.  :thumb:

Mark
Title: Re: Hypex Ncore NC400- USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: BPT on 10 Sep 2012, 12:41 am
I had early interest when Hypex started and was on the fence about purchasing until the upgraded UCD400HG became available. I  bought 4 modules and built 2 stereo amps with very good linear power supplies (for bi-amping my OB line source speakers). Was very pleased with the performance. Did some tweaking with the input capacitors and output filter network with minor improvements. Decided to go all out and built battery power supplies for them at +/- 48VDC. They were sooo quiet with great soundstage depth. Some members may have heard them in my exhibit room three years back at RMAF. After a couple years the batteries started to become a bit of a pain so I went back to linear supplies. In an effort for further improvements, I removed the input capacitors completely and had a nice improvement. That is how I have been listening the past couple years.
Enter the NC400. I dropped them in my system to drive my OB panels from 200Hz up. While the supplied power cords looked nice, I used my own designs because I know their sound making it easier to hear overall changes in the sound of the system. Tonally they sound almost identical to my UCD400HGs (which means, very neutral). They are very quiet (as advertised) with an extremely good soundstage. The big question for me is are they better than mine since I use a good linear supply vs. their switching supply. The answer is yes. In the midrange it was close, but I felt the NCs had a better sense of space with improvements in very low level detail retrieval. Maybe a 5% improvement. The high frequencies were an easier call with the NCs being much cleaner and musical. A good 15% improvement over the UCDHGs. I did not test the bass performance. So, yes they are better and yes, they are worth purchasing. How will these babies sound with a really great linear power supply?  :thumb:
Chris H.
BPT
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 10 Sep 2012, 09:57 pm
First off, I want to thank Jason for this great amp tour. More than anyone here, it saved me a lot of headaches. I was worried that the power gremlins would give me trouble on these Ncores, and darn, I was right. I wanted to bow out of the reviews, but Jason encouraged me not to.
 
About 33 years ago, I opened a small audio shop in my home in Iowa. I listened to most of the audio equipment during the daytime hours and it was long hours. In 1983, I moved my audio shop to a small town in Missouri where I graduated. I had to change my listening habits immediately.

I could not listen to AC powered amps here due to excessive electronic glare, that is how bad my power here is. I tried OTL's, Class A, SET amps, and just normal tubes amps. The only way I could listen was to wait until after 10pm Sunday-Thursday nights and after 12pm after Fridays and Saturdays. I have lived in three houses here and it is the same no matter what. For those of you that go to the audio shows and you have found your way in to a horrible sounding, fatiquing room, that was what I was up against.

Fast-forward to this past weekend and the Ncores. I hooked the amps up on Wednesday night and didn't listen too much. I expected the improvement would come the next day. Thursday night was sounding better, but to my dismay, it sounded somewhat mechanical. I suspected my AC gremlins was causing the problem again. Friday I started early in the evening, and the gramlins were back in full force, my ears were ringing in less than 5 minutes. I wished I had waited later that night. Saturday night was slightly better, but listening fatique set in after 10 minutes.
 
Being a stubborn fellow, that is what my wife calls me, I packed the Ncores up and took them to my buddie's Rex's house in St. Charles on Sunday. We hooked them up late that night, so we just listened for a few minutes. The amps sounded better than at my house, but still somewhat mechanical.
 
The next day was the day of truth. We first had the Virtue IC's hooked into the amps. The sound was now finally getting interesting. It was smooth, clean, clear, and quiet. The edge had disappeared, only the vocals were sounding a little recessed. I also had a pair of the Virtue XL cables with me, so we hooked those up.  That improvement took care of the recessed vocals. It was a damatic difference between the XLR's and the IC's. Rex and I now knew what everyone here has been raving about. This was definitely the best 200 WPC amp that Rex or I have ever heard.
 
I was mad all the way home, I was determined some way to get that sound here at my house. So after 10pm, sure enough I finally got that great sound that Rex got. My wife was mad as heck, but I had to find out if my AC gremlins here in my hometown was still the problem. I guess it is, now if I could only have borrowed BPT Chris's battery supply and hook it up to the Ncores. Some of you might have noticed a few months ago that I had asked Bruno on the DIY forum if he was bring out a battery version and he had said no. I was afraid this was going to happen.
 
Just a couple of quibbles, I too found a slight smearing of the instruments like TJ did, and the soundstage was not the most holographic that I have ever heard. I can say this though, if you absolutely need 200 wpc amp, this is one of the first that you should look at. I guess I will have to wait until someone like Chris(BPT) designs me a battery power supply.
 
After being a tube fanatic for over 30 years, I can now say that Class D is definitely here to stay. I may never buy a tube amp again. :o

Equipment used:
Rethm Maargas
Rethm Trishnas
Zu Drews(modified)
Virtue audio IC's
Virtue audio XLR's
AMR DP-777
Mac Mini with Amarra
Virtue USB cable
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Freo-1 on 10 Sep 2012, 11:08 pm
Right.  I also have been converted somewhat to Class D based on the TBI amp as well   :o
 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jbtrio on 10 Sep 2012, 11:24 pm
OzarkTom what you need is a purepower+ re-generator with has a battery backup. Your electric problems will be over.

I have a 1500+ and I'm very pleased with its performance.

Sorry for going off topic.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 11 Sep 2012, 03:45 am

After being a tube fanatic for over 30 years, I can now say that Class D is definitely here to stay. I may never buy a tube amp again. :o


 Wow Tom, you've got some bad power  :lol:. That's too bad, you really missed out. I can't imagine power bad enough to make Ncores smear, that's actually pretty funny! No wonder it's batteries or nothing else for you. I'm imagining burnt out transformers and surplus east german cold war power plant technology.

 Good thing you've got that battery powered TBI. I can't wait to hear it myself.

 Anyway, on to the next review..
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: wilsynet on 11 Sep 2012, 04:20 am
For Ncore listeners that were not smitten with its charms, I suggest you view my post here about Ncore performance into low impedance loads vs. high.  Low impedance performance was so-so at best while high-impedance performance is revelatory. 

I have the Selah Tempestas which are 85 db efficient, present a 5 ohm average and 4 ohm minimum load.

Is this considered too low an impedance for the NC400?  Does this matter all the time or primarily when the amplifier is pushed hard?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Occam on 11 Sep 2012, 05:24 am
Tom,

I'm unsure if I understand what leads you to conclude that the SMPS600 is inadequate in dealing with your noisy electrical grid. Your system, with the Ncore 400 serving  power amplifier duties, doesn't perform well until late at night, presumably due to main's noise and distortion.

How do you know that the AMR feeding the Ncore isn't the source of poor performance due to power supply inadequacy in dealing with mains pollution? Or your apple server, if not on batteries.
Or the separately powered woofers in you Rethm speakers?

The components I'm currently using with my Ncore 400s  is an EAR Acute III cd player/Dac serving source and preamp duties directly connected to the Ncore and then on to the Marten Miles II speakers. I live in Brooklyn, NY where the power, day or night, in engineering terminology, sucks big time. And while the EAR CD player needed individual power filtering from its dedicated outlet (as did the excellent Aspen Lifeforce amp) the Ncores supplied by SMPS600s, sound, IMO, best without additional power filtering, plugged directly into the wall outlets. I say 'additional' because the smps600 incorporates a low pass power entry filter, addressing both common and differential noise. It is one of the few mains powered components that don't appear to benefit from auxiliary series power conditioning.

To more conclusively assess the Ncore's need for a different power supply, one might evaluate the system using a conditioner(s) that provides isolating filtering, as well as a direct to wall option. The would help in determining which components and to what extent they're susceptible to power line noise. A multiple filter conditioner such as the Audience Adept would do quite nicely.

FWIW,
Paul
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 11 Sep 2012, 06:18 am
Tom,

I'm unsure if I understand what leads you to conclude that the SMPS600 is inadequate in dealing with your noisy electrical grid. Your system, with the Ncore 400 serving  power amplifier duties, doesn't perform well until late at night, presumably due to main's noise and distortion.

How do you know that the AMR feeding the Ncore isn't the source of poor performance due to power supply inadequacy in dealing with mains pollution? Or your apple server, if not on batteries.
Or the separately powered woofers in you Rethm speakers?

The components I'm currently using with my Ncore 400s  is an EAR Acute III cd player/Dac serving source and preamp duties directly connected to the Ncore and then on to the Marten Miles II speakers. I live in Brooklyn, NY where the power, day or night, in engineering terminology, sucks big time. And while the EAR CD player needed individual power filtering from its dedicated outlet (as did the excellent Aspen Lifeforce amp) the Ncores supplied by SMPS600s, sound, IMO, best without additional power filtering, plugged directly into the wall outlets. I say 'additional' because the smps600 incorporates a low pass power entry filter, addressing both common and differential noise. It is one of the few mains powered components that don't appear to benefit from auxiliary series power conditioning.

To more conclusively assess the Ncore's need for a different power supply, one might evaluate the system using a conditioner(s) that provides isolating filtering, as well as a direct to wall option. The would help in determining which components and to what extent they're susceptible to power line noise. A multiple filter conditioner such as the Audience Adept would do quite nicely.

FWIW,
Paul


 I found this interesting as well. Many people have noted that the switching supply with the Ncore is advanced to a level that it is superior even to stand alone power conditioning units and that the Ncore is preferred straight into the wall regardless of power conditions.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 11 Sep 2012, 11:42 am
Tom,

I'm unsure if I understand what leads you to conclude that the SMPS600 is inadequate in dealing with your noisy electrical grid. Your system, with the Ncore 400 serving  power amplifier duties, doesn't perform well until late at night, presumably due to main's noise and distortion.

Jason told me to be honest, so I am being as honest as I can. What was causing the distortion in every AC powered amp that I have ever had here for the last 30 years is beyond me.  :scratch:

I even hear the AC glare if I accidentally leave my battery charger hooked up to the battery on my battery amp when playing. This was the #1 reason for me getting on the tour, I was hoping the Ncores would break that long streak. But I never hear that glare as long as I am on batteries on the amp, so the AMR or Rethm's is not causing the problem. And I have had other speakers hooked up here, same results.

Now I might not have used the right terminology on the smearing effect, and I am sorry if I didn't. The vocals and instruments sound very clear on the Ncores, but when there are several instruments playing in the background, it does not separate and pinpoint the instruments as well as I have heard on a few other amps. That may be caused by my AC also, but Rex pointed that out at his place too where his AC was not causing the glare problems.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 11 Sep 2012, 02:28 pm

Now I might not have used the right terminology on the smearing effect, and I am sorry if I didn't. The vocals and instruments sound very clear on the Ncores, but when there are several instruments playing in the background, it does not separate and pinpoint the instruments as well as I have heard on a few other amps.


 See that baffles me, because I found the Ncore's seperation so good it was spooky, and especially noted so on busier tracks. Unstrained and effortless. It will be interesting to see if the TBI is even better.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 11 Sep 2012, 06:29 pm
I have the Selah Tempestas which are 85 db efficient, present a 5 ohm average and 4 ohm minimum load.
Is this considered too low an impedance for the NC400?  Does this matter all the time or primarily when the amplifier is pushed hard?
My Tempestas worked just fine with them. I ran them at 90 db all day long and they had no issues at all. Only got a little warm, and never sounded strained. Sounded fabulous. Read my impressions in this thread. A truly magnificent matchup, as several other listeners confirmed. My PS audio (IcePower) amp was rated down to 1.5 ohm loads, and the Ncores bested them in every way.
I get my modules today, and should have it up and running in a few days.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: MrAcoustat on 11 Sep 2012, 08:09 pm
Hi guys newbie here on class D amplifiers, never liked what i heard before but a few weeks ago a friend invited me to his house for a session with is new amp it was his DIY Hypex Ncore NC-400 & SMPS-700 kit well it was a first for me finaly a class D that i liked i am thinking of having my friend build me mono blocks i want to know is there anything more powerful than the NC-400 & SMPS-700 duo to date i ask because they will be driving these 81db Acoustat 1+1 speakers. thank you

(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/KeepItSimple1000X750.jpg)

(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface01.jpg)

(http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface02.jpg)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 11 Sep 2012, 09:06 pm
You have two options: bridge two nc 400 amps DIY, or buy a commercial product, the nc1200. Commercial product will cost you around $10,000US, the bridged DIY version, less than half that much.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 11 Sep 2012, 11:01 pm
MrAcoustat, the amps to go with are the Acoustat Direct Drive servo tube amps. Getting rid of those transformers is the biggest improvement that you can ever make in your sound on Acoustats. Too bad the Ncores will not DD them, or the Ncores would be just as nice. With Ncores, you will still have to go through those awful veiling transformers.

I lived with Acoustats for many years, I wish I still had a pair. Ask BPape of GLK here on AC, he will tell you how great they are. Or check out Roger Modjeski's thread, he is the current brain behind ESL's and DD tube amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: MrAcoustat on 11 Sep 2012, 11:39 pm
Thank you for your suggestion, but you have no idea of what kind of interface i have on these Acoustat's as for tubes no thank you been there 81db output tubes every year that's for rich people not an old retired man like me. :D :D :D
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: steve k on 13 Sep 2012, 09:32 pm
 First I’d like to thank Jason for the generous sharing of these amps across the country. I was able to share this audition with 6 GAS friends and compare them to my amps.

This was a very difficult review to write. These are definitely very good amps and out of the box they are very impressive and seductive. I looked forward to hearing how they compared with my humble classDaudio amps. After a few days of listening, my impressions changed a bit.

First off my system:

Modified Magnepan IIIA’s biamped with ClassDAudio SDS 224 (120 wpc/4 ohms on mids and highs), ClassDAudio SDS258 (400wpc/4ohms on the bass)
Dahlquist LP-1 active crossover
VTL 5.5 preamp
Pioneer P-65 transport
Museatex Bitstream DAC with latest John Wright mods
VPI HW19-Jr turntable with TNT platter and Audiomods Series IV arm, SAE 1000E

While I run my system biamped, for the purposes of hearing the ncores full range, I went back to a full range setup driven by the ncores and then by my SDS258 for comparison. I consider my system to be fairly neutral to slightly warm in sound and fairly detailed.

First off, the good news. These are very fast, extremely detailed amps. They gripped my speakers with an iron first, like no other amps have before. The bass control and slam was jaw dropping. We were hearing detail from well known recordings that we hadn’t heard before. Both vinyl and digital was very punchy and dynamic. Vocals in particular were very natural and clean sounding.

We were all impressed. We then went back to my SDS 258 running full range and it was interesting to hear the reactions. Some of the comments were “darker and more musical, not as bright, deeper soundstage, not as detailed, warmer tonality.” Indeed the soundstage with the ncores was smashed flat up across the front of the speakers. It was wider but much shallower than with the classDAudio and in our laps. Another comment was that the ncores are tipped up. In my system, bright albums were unbearably so with the ncores. I honestly couldn’t listen to Alison Krauss without turning the volume down considerably. 

I’m not a detail freak. I prefer a more musical presentation if albeit giving up the last nth degree of detail retrieval and a big soundstage. System synergy is what it’s all about and I’m sure there are systems where the ncores really shine. As I said, they are very good amps, they just didn’t work well in my system. They tended to be a bit too analytical sounding and produced a shallow soundstage. The ncores have definitely taken Class D design to a new plateau, which in itself was worth hearing. Eight years ago, you couldn’t get me to buy a Class D amp. Now I think it’s the future.

Again, we all appreciated the opportunity to hear these.
Steve k

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67690)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67689)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=67691)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: SteveFord on 13 Sep 2012, 09:55 pm
Steve,
I was hoping that these amps would make their way to you as I was really interested in your thoughts.
Oddly enough, I spent a half hour flipping through that ClassDAudio build thread in Cheap and Cheerful.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 14 Sep 2012, 02:38 am
Indeed the soundstage with the ncores was smashed flat up across the front of the speakers. It was wider but much shallower than with the classDAudio and in our laps. Another comment was that the ncores are tipped up. In my system, bright albums were unbearably so with the ncores. I honestly couldn’t listen to Alison Krauss without turning the volume down considerably. 
Very good write up. Matchups rule. One size will never fit all. There are many spices available to choose for the audio stew, and the ncores are but one of many good but different choices.

I also found the ncores too aggressive on top at first, but interconnect changes solved that for me. Allison Krause, on New Favorite, was sublime. Interestingly, in my rig, the soundstage depth was the deepest I've had. Maybe the dipole interacting here, somehow? Irrelevant in the end if the result is not what you're looking for.
I hope to have my ncore complete this weekend. I'll be writing more of my experiences a bit later.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 14 Sep 2012, 04:26 am
I am currently auditioning a fellow ACer's Ncore400 in my system, it has undergone a few enhancements, I will post another followup after the weekend...much of my earlier reservations seemed to have been overcome, but I am letting it 'soak' in over the next few days. You know, different time of the day/nite, different moods... :thumb:


Edit: 9/21/12
Posting the followup here as an edit since this NCore amp is not related to the tour sample.
The short answer is; now that this amp is gone from my system, I miss it.
All the 'shortcomings' I first noted during the tour sample are gone. Midrange is now fleshed out with the right amount of weight in the lower mids, and the highs are clean and extended, resolution in spades without any edginess. Decay-time seems to be now on par with my tube amps, also the soundstage is just as deep and wide. Layering of instruments are just spooky. And the piano now sounds like a real piano.
Going back to my tube amp, my immediate impression was how 'slow' and 'thick' it sounded.  :lol:
But with a little fine-tuning I was able to emulate some of the things I loved about the Ncore, but no way could I get that lightness and speed that is the Ncore basic signature.
Maybe by next year some current owners will tire of their Ncore and be looking to move onto the next new-big-event-horizon  :lol: ... and I can pick up a used/discarded one for a bargain price.  :thumb:

 :surrender:

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68137)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Sep 2012, 02:57 am
In one way these amps proved to be just like every other digital amp out there in that they are really dependent on the power that you feed them.

And I had the luxury of being able to try them with various combination's to get a widely varied result. In some cases I have to wonder if everyone else is even getting to really hear what these amps are capable of.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I am used to a top level system and my reference amps are a pair of Dodd Audio tube amps that were a spare no expense effort. They are a $50,000 set of amps. So the bar is pretty high around here.

For my first listen of the amps I used the supplied power cables and plugged them into my balanced power supply in the same sockets that my big tube amps were plugged into. My first impression was one of wow. I thought, wow, what happened to all the highs? The whole top end lacked a ton of resolution and detail that I was used to. It was like someone hit the mute button. It wasn't like there was a defect with them or something. Many people hearing what I was hearing might have thought it to be great. But it was a long way from what I was used to. The sound stage size also folded in and everything moved in two dimensional direction.

This troubled me a bit and it moved me to experiment. So I swapped out the supplied power cables for the ones on my tube amps. Ah... the highs were back. Detail levels returned. Details levels were pretty good actually. Overall sound was not too bad. Better than any other solid state amps that have been through here. Even better than some tube amps. It wasn't quite in the same league as my tube amps, but not bad. My tube amps still added a little more image depth, with a little more body and richness. The things that you'd expect from a good tube amp. All the things that draw you into the music. These amps don't have those things, but they had no problems either.

And keep in mind that in front of these amps was a really good power cable plugged into a PI Audio Uber Buss. Then another really good power cable plugged into a Dodd Audio balanced power supply. Then another pair of really good power cables leading to the amps. So there was $5,000 worth of cables and power conditioning in front of them.

So then I decided to hear what everyone else is getting from the amps. So I took supplied power cables and plugged them into the wall. Not bad actually. Much better than using the supplied power cables with all of my power conditioning. Apparently there is a lot of filtering of the power going on with the supplied power cables. They were from Triode Wire. They highs with these cables were back, but the black background was not so black anymore and the bass response was very different. The definition and textures of the bass was gone. The bass extension was not quite the same either. They now sounded pretty bla in the bottom end.

One more trick to try. I think I know how to fix that bottom end. I then plug the Tiode power cables straight into the Uber Buss. This was a great combination. Now the bottom end came right back up and the clean tightness returned. The highs were still good too. It was a very pleasing combo. I then listened to them for several hours. The background returned to black as well. Clean spaces between the notes rather than a smudge from one note to the next.

Another thing that also keeps standing out in the back of my mind with these amps was that every time I swapped out cables on them I couldn't help but think how much performance was still being left on the table with these amps. On the back panel was one of the really cheap IEC connectors with the built in on off switches right on the connection. There was a cheap RCA to balanced adapter being used, and the binding posts looked really cheap. Just from my own experience I know there are a lot of gains to be had from the obvious upgrades. This makes me wonder also about the internals and if even more was being left on the table there too. These amps sounded really good, but they could be great.

Anyone looking at amps in this price range or above should give them a listen. I'd easily take them over any Krell, Classe, Mark Levinson or any other solid state amp that is considered a top level amp. Know though that you are not done with these by just buying the amps, or mounting the kit into a chassis. Good cabling and some power conditioning is a must.

I was also using a modded Mac Mini as a source. A Dodd Audio battery power tube pre-amp, and $2,400 worth of interconnects from Ridge Street Audio. Speaker cables were from Electra Cable. Day one I listened with Super-V's: http://gr-research.com/super-v.aspx
And day two I listened with Serenity Acoustics new Super-7.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=109918.0

And Jason, Thank you for letting me give these a listen.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 20 Sep 2012, 03:07 am
Danny, I don't think you named your high end power cables as compared to the ones supplied.  Care to share?

Thanks for the great review. My own limited experimentation with cables leads me to the same conclusion that tweaking can go a long way with these amps.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 20 Sep 2012, 01:26 pm


Another thing that also keeps standing out in the back of my mind with these amps was that every time I swapped out cables on them I couldn't help but think how much performance was still being left on the table with these amps. On the back panel was one of the really cheap IEC connectors with the built in on off switches right on the connection. There was a cheap RCA to balanced adapter being used, and the binding posts looked really cheap. Just from my own experience I know there are a lot of gains to be had from the obvious upgrades. This makes me wonder also about the internals and if even more was being left on the table there too. These amps sounded really good, but they could be great.


I second that emotion....I rebuilt mine using Neutrik powercon instead of IEC, Cardas XLR connectors, all occ internal wiring (home brew power, input, and output wiring), and a new type of speaker connector (no metal) that allow you to hardwire the speakers to the amp. My results were superb-a nice improvement over the usual components/construction.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Danny Richie on 20 Sep 2012, 01:34 pm
Quote
Danny, I don't think you named your high end power cables as compared to the ones supplied.  Care to share?

They weren't a branded cable. They were custom made.

Quote
and a new type of speaker connector (no metal) that allow you to hardwire the speakers to the amp.

Sounds  a little like tube connectors.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: ted_b on 20 Sep 2012, 01:55 pm
Cab,
Is yours something like a non-metallic Cardas clamp?  I loved the clamping done on my former RSA Sasons, and know that Randy (rklein) has incorporated that idea into his NCores (wire comes directly from module, through grommetted hole in case, then up to clamp; user speaker wire then added to post and voila, they are sandwiched together with clamp.)

I drew a pic here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106382.msg1094484#msg1094484
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jonbee on 20 Sep 2012, 03:02 pm
In one way these amps proved to be just like every other digital amp out there in that they are really dependent on the power that you feed them.

Another thing that also keeps standing out in the back of my mind with these amps was that every time I swapped out cables on them I couldn't help but think how much performance was still being left on the table with these amps. On the back panel was one of the really cheap IEC connectors with the built in on off switches right on the connection. There was a cheap RCA to balanced adapter being used, and the binding posts looked really cheap. Just from my own experience I know there are a lot of gains to be had from the obvious upgrades. This makes me wonder also about the internals and if even more was being left on the table there too. These amps sounded really good, but they could be great.

Anyone looking at amps in this price range or above should give them a listen. I'd easily take them over any Krell, Classe, Mark Levinson or any other solid state amp that is considered a top level amp. Know though that you are not done with these by just buying the amps, or mounting the kit into a chassis. Good cabling and some power conditioning is a must.
Amen to all this. I intend to re-visit more of the internal wiring and connectors at some future date, but with my PS audio power plant, Black Sand Silver PC, cardas speaker connectors and custom hookup wire, I'm really enjoying the sound. I'm sure it is not at the level of your Dodds, but very enjoyable on its own terms- and it didn't cost $50k!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mikeeastman on 20 Sep 2012, 03:54 pm
Cab, here are some pics of custom Cardas Rhodium posts that Trung sent me, he used them on his Ncores. He said he didn't notice any difference in sound using clamp method.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68083)
 (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68084)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: rklein on 20 Sep 2012, 04:31 pm
Quote
I second that emotion....I rebuilt mine using Neutrik powercon instead of IEC, Cardas XLR connectors, all occ internal wiring (home brew power, input, and output wiring), and a new type of speaker connector (no metal) that allow you to hardwire the speakers to the amp. My results were superb-a nice improvement over the usual components/construction.

Hi Cab:

I plan on replacing my IEC's with the Furutech GI-10's.  Can you be more specific on your implementation of the occ internal wiring(gauge/where you bought it).  I am also interested in the speaker connectors you used.  I am currently using the cheap binding posts (Apex, jr.) that were on Jason's original tour NCores.  I drilled a hole between the posts and fitted a rubber grommet.  Then just drew my DHLabs T-14 hookup wire through the hole, tinned them into loops and am using the posts as clamps (as Ted mentioned...)

Regards,

Randy
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 20 Sep 2012, 06:06 pm
Will try to answer all the questions:

-Binding posts: the ones I used were prototypes for a commercial product. Can't say too much about them here, but they are similar to the modified Cardas shown above but are made of a non-metallic material and allow for direct clamping of the speaker cable to the internal wiring without grommets. I will post more info when the product is available.

-Internal wiring: I obtained the molex connectors and pins from digikey and made my own power and signal cables using 16 awg occ/teflon hookup wire from partsconnection for the power input (largest size that will work with the molex connector used) and 28 awg silver occ wire with eptfe insulation in a 8 conductor circular braid around a larger eptfe core. Wire from partsconnection, eptfe from phillips scientific. For speaker connection, 14awg occ copper/teflon pairs twisted together. I may try replacing the eptfe with cotton in the future.

-Neutrik powercon connectors: used their 30amp rated connectors. Very nice.

Hope that is of some help.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 20 Sep 2012, 06:39 pm
Cab,
Is yours something like a non-metallic Cardas clamp?  I loved the clamping done on my former RSA Sasons, and know that Randy (rklein) has incorporated that idea into his NCores (wire comes directly from module, through grommetted hole in case, then up to clamp; user speaker wire then added to post and voila, they are sandwiched together with clamp.)

I drew a pic here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=106382.msg1094484#msg1094484

No, different, but the result is the same...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: dBe on 21 Sep 2012, 11:01 pm
In one way these amps proved to be just like every other digital amp out there in that they are really dependent on the power that you feed them.
I have not heard these amps, but I know the players here and have some additional input from another person that is not a frequenter of AC.  He is a guy that I have untimate respect for and I know how he hears.  Used to be one of the old Albuquerque Speaker Society dudes.  Anyhoo, I have some observations on power cabling/treatment in conjunction with switching power supplies and the use of power treatment with them.

I'm pulling the pin on the cable/treatment grenade right now:

Switching power supplies come in quite a few flavors.  Mostly bad.  BUT, there is that designer out there that actually considers the power supply to be part of the voice of the amp and I really do believe that this amp has one of those guys at the controls.  Everything that I have heard from people that I respect on this amp has been very positive.  Consider that I am a dyed in the wool TubeDude of the first order.  I do not, however, let that jade me to the point of saying that there are no great solid state amps.  There are PASS LABS amps that I could live with forever and never look back.  Nelson Pass is one of "those guys" that takes everything into consideration when designing his amps.  Truly a Monster Designer of the first order.  I am beginning to think that Bruno Putzeys and his team are some of "those guys", too.  Having stated my point, let me move on.

Screwing with the input of a properly designed switching power supply is a recipie for disaster.  There:  I have said it.  Same can be said for other well designed power inputs.  That is why high end cables can make a huge improvement on some pieces of gear and not on others.  That is also why some pieces of gear absolutely DO NOT like power filtration in the traditional context.  There is NO and I mean NO one size fits all cable, filter, balanced power supply or combination thereof that will be beneficial in every context.  To think so is pure ignorance.  A/C power is not the simple construct that most people see it to be.  Far from it... especially when it comes to complex systems that are digital/switching systems.  Every system is an individual.  That is why I recommend Pete's TRIODE WIRE LABS cables to my customers.  They will totally rock in some systems, but not all.  Same with mine:  different systems are different systems.  Quite frankly speaking, Pete's cables are probably better cables in a majority of systems than mine.  My cables are ruthlessly revealing and very dynamic and Petes are very round sounding.  I digress, this is not about me and Pete, but about the Ncore amps.  It is my estimation that the amps, from what I have heard, will respond to power cables in this manner: Give them good clean power with no frills and they will be happy up to a point.  A very detailed system will need a different cable from one that needs some help in that area.  It is all about system synergy.

  Simply put: WHAT SOUNDS BEST SOUNDS BEST.

My advice on the power filtration side would be to be very careful about doing anything until the word is in about what works.  Will my BUSSes work?  Maybe, I do not know.  Will a BPT package work?  I do not know.  Will a Furman whatever work?  I do not know.  Will an XYZ thingie work?  Who knows?

Bottom line on all of this is that too many people tend to think that more is more when it comes to power cabling and filtration.  In fear of cutting my (prodigious) nose off to spite my face, I am here to say: " 'Tain't so, McGee!".

Be vewwy, vewwy cawefull.

Dave
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 21 Sep 2012, 11:13 pm
If one takes the time to read the comments on the mains supply made in various places by Bruno, you will find that recommends straight into the wall without any sort of treatment, filtering, etc.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Danny Richie on 21 Sep 2012, 11:57 pm
If one takes the time to read the comments on the mains supply made in various places by Bruno, you will find that recommends straight into the wall without any sort of treatment, filtering, etc.

Yeah, that didn't work out to well in my system. I wouldn't recommend it.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 22 Sep 2012, 12:06 am
Yeah, that didn't work out to well in my system. I wouldn't recommend it.
With all due respect, you are a cap, wire and tweaker while Bruno Putzeys is NOT.  He's 100% science. 

It's up to each person to treat their build as they please but DO NOT make this thread anything more then your listening impressions.  We have an NCore Improvement thread for that. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Sep 2012, 01:42 am
With all due respect, you are a cap, wire and tweaker while Bruno Putzeys is NOT.  He's 100% science. 

It's up to each person to treat their build as they please but DO NOT make this thread anything more then your listening impressions.  We have an NCore Improvement thread for that.

That recommendation was based on my listening impressions.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 22 Sep 2012, 03:34 am
With all due respect, you are a cap, wire and tweaker while Bruno Putzeys is NOT.  He's 100% science. 


With all due respect, are you the same guy who was trying to unload some $1000/pair caps in the for sale section?  Doesn't that make you a cap and wire tweaked or at least a reformed one?

Danny was only giving an opinion regarding what he felt sounded better, based on first hand experience. Isn't that what this thread is all about or is it off limits to cap and wire tweakers? 

Cheers

Jack
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: mjosef on 22 Sep 2012, 04:02 am
I will just say that my last week second encounter with the Ncore amp was a blast!  :bowdown:
I miss it, now that it's gone.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68137)

Go back one page to catch my take...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 22 Sep 2012, 02:09 pm
When something is system dependent, making any recommendation, other than trying both with and without, is rather meaningless....
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jackman on 22 Sep 2012, 02:50 pm
Thank you Cab "Self-appointed defender of all things Ncore".   From the sound of it, he tried it with and without and preferred the sound when it wasn't plugged directly into the wall.  Don't worry, it does not look like Danny was demeaning the sacred Ncore in any way. The kind of talk is not tolerated around these parts.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: cab on 22 Sep 2012, 03:09 pm
You are most welcome, self-appointed "master of the obvious".
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Danny Richie on 22 Sep 2012, 03:14 pm
Okay guys, I will re-word my recommendation.

I (strongly) recommend that anyone using these or considering using them to try some power conditioning and various power cables with them.

Like I said initially, these amps (like all other digital amps) are very much dependent on the incoming power. An in the case, with these amps, the difference could easily be make or break.

And BTW, the power cables that came with the amps that I tried lean very heavy on the filtering side. Yes, those power cables are filters. And if no other conditioning is used then those power cables are a good choice. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: OzarkTom on 22 Sep 2012, 11:35 pm
I sure could have used the Uber Buss here in my system when I tried out the Ncores. Even those $1K power cords could not filter out the AC grunge that I have coming into my house , with the amps plugged straight into the wall.

Maybe an amp designer could come to my home town for the ultimate challenge.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Triode Pete on 23 Sep 2012, 12:12 am
I sure could have used the Uber Buss here in my system when I tried out the Ncores. Even those $1K power cords could not filter out the AC grunge that I have coming into my house , with the amps plugged straight into the wall.

Maybe an amp designer could come to my home town for the ultimate challenge.

Yes, the PI UberBuss does a phenomenal job in filtering hash & correcting power factor (see Danny's original post on the UberBuss / NC400 combo)... but remember "overfiltering / over-conditioning" can have detrimental effects on Sound Quality. I'm hoping to have the opportunity to try the NC400 & the professional NC1200 modules in my system(s) real soon & I plan on putting the Uber & Rev. B to work...
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: bhakti on 23 Sep 2012, 01:46 am
Just a side note about power.  Everyone is tapped into a different grid and differently within that grid.  So, power conditioning/filtering becomes an isolated exercise and should be seen as such.

I wish I could be %100 science.  :?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Rclark on 23 Sep 2012, 04:40 am
 Danny I was really looking forward to your review and enjoyed it. Food for thought there, but after reading some of these I think I must have some of the cleanest AC power going. I don't know if living right smack dab in the middle of tech central (Microsoft, Nintendo, Medtronic, numerous tech companies located within very short distances) has anything to do with it. We must have a good power infrastucture here. It's a very nice area with a lot of very nice neighborhoods.

 Anyway, good to know that once you got your situation figured out, you had very high praise for these amps, perhaps the highest, which I think some people seemed to overlook.

"Anyone looking at amps in this price range or above should give them a listen. I'd easily take them over any Krell, Classe, Mark Levinson or any other solid state amp that is considered a top level amp. Know though that you are not done with these by just buying the amps, or mounting the kit into a chassis. Good cabling and some power conditioning is a must."
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Toaster on 23 Sep 2012, 12:10 pm
Seems reasonable enough to me- listening impressions, the conditions under which they were done and some observations and recommendations based on that. Different perspectives are one of the things that  make forums like this valuable, IMHO. Also, although I'm sure he doesn't need me to say it, I would mildly point out that Danny is a professional loudspeaker designer, not a '...cap, wire and tweaker...' (sic.), although even if he was 'just' a amateur DIYer like me, I would hope that his opinion and experience would be respected. Bruno is clearly one of the top guys in his field, but with specialist audio the experience of music in the listening environment is what it's all about from a user's point of view. The advice of an experienced listener and designer is surely something to be welcomed. If one's own experience of the use of power conditioning say, turns out to be different to another listeners, this is not a problem. Expectations, prejudices, preferences, equipment and environmental conditions, both natural and human-made, will affect what we hear and how we respond to that experience. Empirical studies are an important part of science, particularly if human perception is involved. If people are not as impressed with NCores as others have been, power conditioning has been suggested as something that could be tried to improve things. Nobody has to do this, and many vendors of power conditioners and fancy mains cables offer 'try before you buy'. I own, as yet unbuilt NCore NC400s BTW, so no anti-NCore axe to grind here.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: RCduck7 on 24 Sep 2012, 09:38 pm
I was told by one user of the Ncore's on his Super-V speakers he heard a bump somewhere in the mid bas band. He also missed some life and depth compared to other amps like a Joule Electra for instance. That said the Ncore's do sound very neutral and polished. Can anyone relate to that findings? Or maybe a case of a mismatch?? Or maybe he struck gold with Super-V/Joule match he made. I'm not saying who i got that info from but if he is reading this he is free to decide to comment or not. :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 25 Sep 2012, 08:14 pm
In one way these amps proved to be just like every other digital amp out there in that they are really dependent on the power that you feed them.

On the back panel was one of the really cheap IEC connectors with the built in on off switches right on the connection. There was a cheap RCA to balanced adapter being used, and the binding posts looked really cheap. Just from my own experience I know there are a lot of gains to be had from the obvious upgrades.

After reading many, many reviews, it seems that these two points are very much worth considering as one listens to the Ncores for the first time or as it settles into your system for the long-term.  Some have done the before and after comparison with both of these - power and parts - and have found excellent results. 

Happy listening.

Phil
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Triode Pete on 30 Sep 2012, 11:49 pm
Chris, aka Lonewolf42, was kind enough to bring over the tour pair of amps last Monday night & pick them up the next day (Tuesday). I hooked them up to my second system, a custom-made Tannoy 12" Gold-based system (~ 93 dB efficient). I listened to them for a brief period of time...
 
These are my impressions of the amps, in the order I experienced them...
1. Wow, the amps are small & lightweight (compared to the 300B SET monoblock amps they were temporarily replacing).
2. At start-up, the amps are quiet. They sound pretty good for Class D.
3. The gain on the amps was a lot less than I experienced on my 8 watt 300B SET monoblocks (Normal listening on the 300B's is ~ 10 o'clock; on the Ncore 400's ~ 12 o'clock on my preamp); I thought the NCore's would blow me out of the room.
4. I initially plugged them directly into the wall receptacles, listened to few tracks & then plugged them into a PI Audio Rev. B Buss;  I appeared to get a blacker background and a bit more gain & dynamics with the Rev. B... a good thing!
5. After they were warmed up for awhile, they sounded much better... more specifically;
6. Bass was very tight & articulate. On the Trombone Shorty song "Neph", the extremely fast bass drum double kick was clearly evident. On many systems I've heard, the bass drum double kick appears as a blended single note.
7. Midrange & vocals were there... on Bernadette Peters' "Blackbird", her voice was very palpable & lifelike.
8. Cymbals appeared to be a little recessed (less shimmer & decay) to what I was used to, but still pretty good.
9. The amps are very, very clean sounding... Clean & clear... very neutral sounding without evident flaws.

Lonewolf42 came over Tuesday night to retrieve the amps & we listened for awhile without any fatigue whatsoever to a variety of music (Classical, Jazz, New Wave, Rock, etc., etc.)...

Overall, these were the best, non-triode based amps I've had on my Tannoy system. No, they won't be replacing my custom built SET monoblocks with original Tango FX-50-3.5S Orient Core output trannies with Tung Sol round plate 6sn7 input & Sylvania 6sn7W driver tubes with Mullard 5AR4 rectifiers and Western Electric 300B output tubes. However, I really liked these amps...

Being a triode tube guy, I was very impressed with these amps. I think I'll probably build myself a pair and use them on those hot summer nights as well as outside without fear.

Thanks to Jason & Lonewolf42 for their kindness & generosity!

Cheers,
Pete


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=68699)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: satfrat on 1 Oct 2012, 12:58 am
Pete, you never mentioned what your preamp was (tube no doubt) and what source(s) were being used. Thanks.



Cheers,
Robin
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Triode Pete on 2 Oct 2012, 01:50 am
Pete, you never mentioned what your preamp was (tube no doubt) and what source(s) were being used. Thanks.



Cheers,
Robin

The custom-built preamp used was a Stereo Single Triode Linestage using a matched pair of RCA globe 171A tubes with dual mono tube regulated power supplies (Gen-Rad 1201-A). It's a pretty low gain preamp. The source was a Philips 963 SA Transport / SACD player feeding into a Eastern Electric DAC Plus with Dexa Discretes (Brimar T-Series 6067 tube used). Power cables all Triode Wire Labs ( :duh:); interconnects were Groneberg Quattro Reference, digital cable was Black Cat Veloce. The 12" Tannoy Golds in custom cabinets have a nice, high quality bass response measured into the upper 20s (Hz)...

Cheers,
Pete
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: satfrat on 2 Oct 2012, 01:53 am
The custom-built preamp used was a Stereo Single Triode Linestage using a matched pair of RCA globe 171A tubes with dual mono tube regulated power supplies (Gen-Rad 1201-A). It's a pretty low gain preamp. The source was a Philips 963 SA Transport / SACD player feeding into a Eastern Electric DAC Plus with Dexa Discretes (Brimar T-Series 6067 tube used). Power cables all Triode Wire Labs ( :duh:); interconnects were Groneberg Quattro Reference, digital cable was Black Cat Veloce. The 12" Tannoy Golds in custom cabinets have a nice, high quality bass response measured into the upper 20s (Hz)...

Cheers,
Pete

Great supporting cast you have there Pete, no wonder the NCores sounded so damn good.  :lol:  :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 4 Oct 2012, 11:27 am
There should be at least two more reviews coming from the tour. 
Title: My Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: yukiginger on 5 Oct 2012, 11:15 pm
First, I need to thank Jason for building these amps and sharing them by way of this tour.

My equipment is modest:

Squeezebox Duet w/upgraded power supply playing lossless files
Emotiva DAC
Emotiva Preamp
Vincent amplifier
Zu Omen speakers, stock
Various cables and interconnects of modest cost (no interconnect over $75/set of 1 meter)
APC power conditioner for most electronics (this is how I powered the NCores). This is on a dedicated line.

My general description of the amps: highly detailed, full-bodied, and three dimensional. I found the soundstage deeper than I’m used to. I found more detail to the instruments and notes, and to the vocals, and I felt everything was richer or fuller. By this I mean I had experienced more depth and fullness to the artists’ voices and instruments. I heard more decay of notes especially guitar and piano. More real. Here are my notes on some of the music I listened to and what struck me about its presentation:

John Hiatt’s Bring the Family – in “Have a Little Faith in Me” I could hear John’s lips parting in preparation of his vocal every couple seconds. I’ve never noticed this before. I LOVE detail. In “Lipstick Sunset” I could hear so much of the studio echo from his voice – this goes to the three-dimensionality of the amps. I felt that I was there right in front of the mic. while he recorded this song. On “Tip of My Tongue” I heard much greater separation of instruments than I am used to – such a well-defined soundstage.

Martin Sexton’s Black Sheep – the cymbal strike at the end of “Black Sheep” almost threw me out of my seat – so lifelike! Sexton’s voice was incredibly  rich in “Caught in the Rain;” the depth to his voice was tremendous.

Allison Krauss & Union Station: New Favorite – I truly felt Allison was there in front of me in “New Favorite.”

Bruce Cockburn Nothing But a Burning Light – at the beginning of “Kit Carson” it sounds like a bag of rattling bones (not sure if that’s an instrument or not), but it was much more palpable than I’m used to – just startling. It added so much to the early parts of the song that I experienced it very differently.

Matthew Sweet’s Girlfriend – the guitar in “Nothing Lasts” was wonderful. I could hear every string it seems. Just more presence felt coming out of my speakers.

King’s X: Faith, Hope Love, “Talk to You” In this song there was a constant “ringing” or resonance that I think is an artifact from an instrument, but I don’t know which. It was somewhat annoying actually, but this is the detail that I find so enticing in these amps. Given more listens perhaps it would grow on me and I would realize the artists intended it (not sure on this).  I’m amazed that I’ve never heard this before and just how prominent it was.

I’ve since gone back to my previous amp and I must say I immediately missed all that the NCores had to add to the experience.  The 3 dimensional lifelike presentation is no longer there. I still enjoy my music but in the short term at least I need to remind myself to forget what once was…
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 6 Oct 2012, 10:44 am
Well done.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 6 Oct 2012, 01:44 pm
Thank you for your polished review. Do you mind sharing which model Vincent amp you have?

Thanks,
Anand.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: yukiginger on 6 Oct 2012, 05:24 pm
Anand, the amp is the SP-331. Over the years (with different speakers and pres, etc) I have owned an older Belles, an Anthem integrated, the Emotiva XPA-2, and probably some others I am forgetting.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: EuroDriver on 7 Oct 2012, 08:11 pm
I have only got back into HiFi a little over a year ago after a 10 year hiatus.  My present amp is a Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 with which I was very happy with.  My build has been posted in "Show us your NCores" and has been running for about 1 week

My comments on the NCores compared to the W4S ST-500

-  The bass is visceral, very clean and strong.  Very noticeable on the double bass notes, there is much less flopping around and wooliness.  I almost don’t need the subwoofer anymore

-  The realism of the voices is eye opening (Patti Barber, Diana Krall), but the tone color is noticeable cooler than the ST-500 but not to an extent that bothers me any more after several hours of listening

-  My B&W 805 Diamonds are not very dynamic, but with the NCores driving them I no longer have any complaints about lack of dynamics

-  I am a detail freak, and the NCores delivery it in spades with new little details that I did not notice before.  The extra detail is a bit of a double edged sword.  There is a lot more of reverberation detail perceptible from the speakers, but I have found on certain classical orchestral recordings, this extra detail actually makes the focus of the sound stage significantly worse than it was with the ST-500.  What I had to do was to increase the area of sound absorption panels [GIK 244] between the speakers, and then everything snapped into focus superbly.

Summary, I am a happy camper, with no significant down sides

Audiolab 8200CDQ > Wireworld Eclipse XLR > dual mono Ncore > inAkustik LS803 > B&W 805 Diamond

Supra Lorad AC cord > Oyaide IEC > Mundorf Ag/Au Teflon wire > WBT NextGen
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Phil on 11 Oct 2012, 02:03 am
Since the Ncore sounded great without a conditioner, it took me some time to experiment with the Majikbuss (which already fed the Bryston isolation transformer which in turn feeds the digital components).  This small change has exceeded my expectations.  If you have access to one, this is a must try. 

Of course, since there is a 30 day trial period, it is easy to try one:  http://www.piaudiogroup.com/RevB_MajikBUSS.html

Just a happy customer....Dave does not provide kickbacks (but he does provide great service).


Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: EuroDriver on 11 Oct 2012, 08:52 pm
My Dual Mono NCore has been playing close to 2 weeks non stop.  The sound has clearly improved from a week ago, the tone has become warmer, so my only mild criticism has now gone ! Voices have acquired more texture, live performances, sound even more live, I am going wow every minute or so on familiar tracks

The transparency and detail of the Ncore has had some unexpected consequences.  I have a Velodyne 1200 SPL Ultra hooked up to the single ended outputs of the Audiolab 8200 CDQ, whilst the XLR's feed the power amp.  The output stage of the CDQ is not designed to drive both XLR and single ended simultaneously.  With the ST-500, I could not detect any sound quality degradation using both sets of outputs, however with the NCores I do notice a degradation.  I have now totally disconnected the subwoofer and single ended IC's from the CDQ, but the bass is now so strong with the Ncores, I don't miss subwoofer.

I believe the NCores deserve a better DAC and I am looking at the NAD M51.  That's the problem with the NCore, you want to start upgrading the source components ;-)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: genjamon on 11 Oct 2012, 09:09 pm

I believe the NCores deserve a better DAC and I am looking at the NAD M51.  That's the problem with the NCore, you want to start upgrading the source components ;-)

And in my case, the speakers and everything else!!!
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: lonewolfny42 on 18 Oct 2012, 06:13 am
Sorry for the delayed tour comments.... :?


I received the NCore Mono's on Monday,Sept. 24th. for a three day audition. I listened on Monday and Wednesday nights...and for Tuesday, I allowed “Triode Pete” to use them in his system since his power cords were part of the tour package....and he wanted to try them in his system. His review is posted above.

I shipped them out early Thursday morning, Sept. 27th.....then around 12:30PM, my wife had major surgery...hence the reason for the delay in posting. (All went well with the surgery)


So....how were they...pretty good. 8)

The first night .... simple system.....NCore amps, Phillips CD-80  Cdplayer (http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/img/info/philips/philips-cd80/groot/philips-cd80-1.jpg), and SP Technology Mini speakers. All cables were Ridge Street Audio.Since the Phillips player has a volume remote - and still works pretty good....no need for a preamp...just the "sound" of the amp.


The second night...more "stuff" in the mix....the NCore amps, ModWright SWL 9.0 SE linestage, EA Turbomodded Sony 7700 player w/ SuperClock 2, EA Turbomodded Electrocompaniet ECD-1 w/SuperClock 2, SP Technology Timepiece 2.0 speakers.

My usual amp...either one or two Butler 2250 amps.... (http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=2769).

Looking back at the comments posted by others...seems mine will be similar to some.


The bass....strong...even at low volume....something you don't find in some amps. Plus....with the SP Tech speakers the power was very good...a nice full soundstage.

Mid's and high's were very detailed...and warm.... smooth sound...easy to listen too... 8)

Adding the tubed preamp the second night...sound was even more relaxed...but nothing was "lost"...detail was still there.

Music was mainly Rock and Jazz.

Comparing the Butler (one) amp....NCore's bass was better....mid's were similar...as were the highs. Also...a better focus in the sound with the NCore's.


So....yes I liked them...good qualities....and for around $2,000.00 (DIY)....I'd say their a good buy. :thumb:

Small....compact....good on electric :lol:....powerful....full sounding....relaxing.....nice.


Thank again Jason for running this tour....back in the early days for AC, I sent a few different pieces of equipement around to different members to try in their systems...always worked out well.You've taken it to a higher level...nice going. :beer:


Thanks.....

                  Chris







Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 18 Oct 2012, 11:02 am
Chris

Happy to hear that everything worked out with your wife and the amps.   :thumb:
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jugi6 on 6 Feb 2013, 06:10 pm
Hi there,

I'm new to this thread but have been lurking... =) Actually partly because of this thread and the positive listening impressions, I made my order and am now listening to my new amps. (I´ll post a couple of pics to the 'Show us your Ncore thread soon.)

Just wondering about Jason's (jtwrace) NC400's build...  Do they use the basic power cable (from ac input connector to smps600) that comes standard with the modules? This I ask because when I subtituted that cable for Belden power cable, there was a sustatial improvement in sound.  The said knowlage would give a better perspective of the posted listening impretions.

Thanks!
- Jukka
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jtwrace on 7 Feb 2013, 12:16 pm
Hi there,

I'm new to this thread but have been lurking... =) Actually partly because of this thread and the positive listening impressions, I made my order and am now listening to my new amps. (I´ll post a couple of pics to the 'Show us your Ncore thread soon.)

Just wondering about Jason's (jtwrace) NC400's build...  Do they use the basic power cable (from ac input connector to smps600) that comes standard with the modules? This I ask because when I subtituted that cable for Belden power cable, there was a sustatial improvement in sound.  The said knowlage would give a better perspective of the posted listening impretions.

Thanks!
- Jukka
Stock power cable.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: jugi6 on 7 Feb 2013, 01:01 pm
Thanks!  8)
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: clpetersen on 10 Oct 2014, 06:05 pm
Hi there,

I'm new to this thread but have been lurking... =) Actually partly because of this thread and the positive listening impressions, I made my order and am now listening to my new amps. (I´ll post a couple of pics to the 'Show us your Ncore thread soon.)

Thanks!
- Jukka

Ditto the above. I am about to order the components; looking around a bit for cases - lots of choices of course. Started a 'newbie thread'.

Read through a lot of this thread and others; obviously strong support for the audio performance of NC400's with a few notable dissents.

My question for the super-users (jtwrace?) - what if any adverse events have been reported with the Hypex NC400 design - any catastrophic failures, or reliability issues of note?
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Nick77 on 10 Oct 2014, 09:13 pm
Hi there,

I'm new to this thread but have been lurking... =) Actually partly because of this thread and the positive listening impressions, I made my order and am now listening to my new amps. (I´ll post a couple of pics to the 'Show us your Ncore thread soon.)

Just wondering about Jason's (jtwrace) NC400's build...  Do they use the basic power cable (from ac input connector to smps600) that comes standard with the modules? This I ask because when I subtituted that cable for Belden power cable, there was a sustatial improvement in sound.  The said knowlage would give a better perspective of the posted listening impretions.

Thanks!
- Jukka

I also found significant sonic advantage replacing stock power wire with Cardas litz on my Hypex UCD unit. The input wire also made a big difference. I think the stock wiring is a deficient to the amps potential, at least the UCD series. 
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Julf on 11 Oct 2014, 07:35 am
I also found significant sonic advantage replacing stock power wire with Cardas litz on my Hypex UCD unit. The input wire also made a big difference. I think the stock wiring is a deficient to the amps potential, at least the UCD series.

At least with the nc400, I would strongly recommend against litz wire - the nc400 really needs low-impedance, high-current-capability wire.

Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: Speedskater on 11 Oct 2014, 02:29 pm
At power line frequencies, Litz wire has no advantages.  At least for the diameter of wires in question. When your wires get near the one inch diameter range, we can talk again.
Title: Re: Hypex NCore NC400 - USA Tour Listening Impressions
Post by: James Romeyn on 26 Nov 2014, 04:55 am
...what if any adverse events have been reported with the Hypex NC400 design - any catastrophic failures, or reliability issues of note?

I saw someone accidentally short outputs of two bridged NC400 (1200W @ 2 Ohm) for about 30 seconds, with absolutely no negative effect, not even a blown PS fuse.  Suspect this might be the most "bomb proof" amp extant.  Most amps suffering such abuse might immediately blow up one or both, possibly taking some or all speakers too.