[Harry P]

Yesterday I was over at AVS forum and saw a post about Velodynes warranty. I was surprised to find out is was only 2 years! This got me thinking a bit so I decided to look at the HSU warranty, 2 years for the amps and 7 years for the drivers, cabinets not covered, interesting. How about mighty B&W, 5 years with 2 years for the amps. Might as well check out SVS, 3 years.

I find it interesting that these major players are not covering those amps for very long. Why not?  It sure looks to me like ACI really backs their products compared to their competition.

Mike, why are the other guys only backing those amps for 2-3 years? Seems like this is a real strong point for ACI ownership that needs to be brought out more.

[ganesha]

Not to mention that the warranty is transferable! I got my Emeralds for a steal off Audiogon with 4 years 8 months left on the warranty and my 25th Anniversary Sapphires with 3.5 years left.

[Harry P]

Not to mention that the warranty is transferable! I got my Emeralds for a steal off Audiogon with 4 years 8 months left on the warranty and my 25th Anniversary Sapphires with 3.5 years left.

Good points. I noticed some of the other warranties were definitely not transferable. Kinda sucks when maybe you want to sell to upgrade like I'm planning on selling Sapphire 25ths to get XLs or maybe you want to buy used but it won't have a warranty.

[Tim S]

I have no experience with ACI products, but from everything I have seen they are probably great. I mean not the slightest bit of a dis-service to them with what I am about to say.

I see posts like this occasionally trumpeting the extra long warranty of some products and I am always a little puzzled. You do realize that these warranties are not free, right? I assume ACI is run by people who know how to run a business, else they would not have been around for so long, which means they, quite rightly, factor the cost of the longer warranty into the initial sale price (which is certainly quite reasonable and affordable for the quality). If ACI had chosen the 2-3 year warranty, they could probably lower their prices a little. Given the hazard rate of failures for faults covered by a warranty in years 3, 4 and 5 of products that did not fail in a earlier time period, though, my real guess is that the practical difference between a 3 and 5 year warranty isn't enough to care about one way or another.

Also, to use a clear example of how warranties can be misleading about quality, Kia has a 10 year warranty on their cars. Acura has a 5 year warranty. Does this mean Kia is better? No. In this particular case, it means since everyone believes Kia's are junk, Kia has to try to send a signal that they are not in order to sucker people in to buying them.

Anyway, again my point is not that ACI products and warranty aren't first rate, I'm sure they are both. In particular I do not mean to imply that ACI=Kia. I do not think ACI chose their warranty period for the same reasons Kia chose theirs. Just attempting to inject some perspective on how to interpret warranty lengths and that one is a good, clear example of why you can't really make the argument of longer warranty ==> better product. The quality of ACI's products are much better judged by the ear and whether they best their competitors that you mention in that test, I have no idea.

Tim

[Mikeyb]

I agree the length of a warranty is not necessarily a measure of quality.  But for many, it is a significant criteria in the decision making process to buy.  Add in the fact ACI's warranties are transferrable, and warranty becomes even more weighted.

Tim S, I'm not sure your point regarding Kia/Acura is comparible.  They are not really direct competitors of each other, nor are they price-similar.  More than warranty, price will almost always be the major decision making factor.  Comparing the warranties of ACI to Velodyne, HSU, B&W and SVS is much more reasonable being that all are marketing to the exact same group of buyers and have products that compete directly with each other.

Having said this, I think a strong warranty, in the case of ACI, IS worth trumpeting about.

[Tim S]

I specifically said the Kia/Acura situation was not comparable here. The example was only to make a clear point about how to interpret a warranty.

If someone wants to buy an ACI product because of the better warranty, I have no problem with that. I was only pointing out that those warranties are not some sort of "free" or "extra" bonus and the fact that ACI offers a longer warranty doesn't mean their products are better/worse than those of their competitors.

Think of it this way. Let us say you buy a product of any sort costing $1000 and 10% of the time it fails completely in a 1 year period (expected replacement cost .1*1000=100). A manufacturer could offer you to sell the unit, no warranty at $1000. You luck out 90% of the time, total cost is 1000 and lose 10% of the time, total cost is $2000 if you replace it (expected cost .9*1000+.1*2000=1100). A second manufacturer could offer to sell it to you the same item for $1100 with a 1 year iron clad warranty or to make it a little murkier $1150. Which one is offering the better deal? Depends entirely on your willingness to accept risk. Some people would prefer to pay the $1150 for product plus warranty, some prefer the $1000 for the product plus no warranty. Both are perfectly reasonable preferences. My point again, is simply that those paying the $1150 aren't getting a free ride and there should be no implication taken that the first manufacturer's product is of any lower quality than the second.

To the specific case, there may well be differences in quality between these companies and ACI may be on top. I don't know. All I'm saying is the warranty issue is a red-herring in determining quality of the product. For those more risk averse, then they may really appreciate the longer warranty and I can certainly see it being attractive to them.

Tim

[Mike Dzurko]

I find it interesting that these major players are not covering those amps for very long. Why not?  It sure looks to me like ACI really ...

Harry:

THANK YOU for bringing this up. Frankly, I've been wondering how many people notice just how good our warranty is.  A couple things:

* Most drivers are pretty darn reliable. Warranty claims on woofers, mids, and tweeters are very rare, in our subs, driver failure is virtually non-existent. The vast majority of the time the "bad" driver is actually fried and technically not under warranty. We replace them at N/C anyway . . .the first time.

* Sub amps take a beating. They are subject to a lot of vibration and sometimes heat issues from being in a cabinet. We have tested a LOT of sub amps over the years . . . many have similar specs to the U.S. built ones we use and can be had for as little as 1/10 the cost! Many of those amps we tested were not very reliable. In our accelerated testing cycles they would do fine for a time . . . but the eventual failure rate was way too high. The amps we use rarely fail. . . if there is a problem we usually can get the amp swapped out ASAP.  There are two reasons we pay a premium for these amps: they sound great, and they are reliable, reliable enough that a five year warranty is no problem for us.

[Tweaker]

Mike,
I'm glad you mentioned the abuse subwoofer amps are exposed to when installed inside the sub enclosure. I would like to see more subs being offered with outboard amp options. (hint, hint)

[Mike Dzurko]

Tim:

You have made some excellent points. . . and I've very glad you're here! I love dialog!

As I see it, the main point is that ACI does have a better warranty than some of our competitors . . . and that should be one factor in a purchase decision. Until Harry brought up the point, I don't think it was nearly as apparent. Let's say you're choosing between two $1000 subs. Every where you ask for opinions there will be plenty of discussion on how many dbs this one puts out at 20Hz vs. that one etc. etc. but how often do you hear someone talking about one having a significantly better warranty than the other? Warranty SHOULD be part of the purchase decision as it does impact on cost of ownership. Not just the lengh of warranty, but is it transferable. So many of us hobbyists want to swap out our gear . . . I'd think it would be a much easier sell if you can transfer warranty.

Now, one excellent point you made was that warranties are not free. This is very true. It certainly costs us money when we have to do warranty work . . .especially in the first year when we even pay shipping BOTH ways. However, in our case, warranty is part of the quality we've designed into our speakers.  The reason we can offer a great warranty is that we've already paid the money up front in the guts we put into our speakers. Unless I cheapen the product with less costly and inferior parts there's really no point for me to cut back on warranty since the claim rate is quite low.

Thanks again for the dialog!

[Craig Chase]

Tim, Speaking as someone who underwrites warranties for every car company in existance, I can tell you this statement is not quite right in this context:  

If ACI had chosen the 2-3 year warranty, they could probably lower their prices a little.

One can look at the predicted failure rate of one's product based on loss information on previous warranty claims and come up with a model for the failure rate.

An example from 25 years ago, The original Genesis Physics company DID build the cost of tweeter repair into its products. They shipped dealers tweeters in lots of 144 because they knew the failure rate.

In the case of ACI, the warranty is actually given because Mike Dzurko is confident the product WILL last the 5 years, with repairs being rare.

He could lower the warranty to 2 years, but the cost of the product would be about the same, because the cost is based on using expensive, reliable components (along with the first rate cabinetry and excellent sonics), not because ACI needs to factor in potential future repair expenses.

[Mike Dzurko]

Mike,
I'm glad you mentioned the abuse subwoofer amps are exposed to when installed inside the sub enclosure. I would like to see more subs being offered with outboard amp options. (hint, hint)

Tweaker:

The amps we use have no problem in a subwoofer cabinet. The primary reason we went with an outboard amp for the Maestro was weight and the convenience of having an external amp. The chassis is quite a bit more expensive than a plate is. We actually could offer either the Force or the Titan amps in chassis, but I don't think most people would want the additional cost. It might be something we could consider as an option. It would add another complexity . . . what to do with the large cutout left in the cabinet

[Tim S]

I haven't been by to see the few replies for a few days. Let me be clear again, I wasn't in any way trying to denigrate ACI's products or warranty. I'm sure they are both great. I also was not saying a warranty should be ignored by a purchaser. I was only trying to make sure people had a better understanding of exactly what a warranty is, as it is not always clear reading these boards that people understand how to evaluate the actual value of a warranty.

One specific point, Craig, if you underwrite warranties, you know how they work. If any manufacturer lowers their warranty by a few years, then either a. this decreases their expected expenditure and it makes it possible for them to sell it for less (doesn't mean they will, but they could) or b. it doesn't decrease their expenditure because their products are such that none will fail during the time period. You seem to be arguing b is the case here and that's fine. As I had said before, that is probably right because I expect the failure rate of most products to be pretty low in those years. If true though, what is the value of the warranty? It won't save you anything in expected repair costs because expected repair costs are virtually 0 (which is a great thing and what a manufacturer should really trumpet in my view).

This is why for myself, I don't really care about a warranty past the first year or it being transferrable. I figure if I am buying a quality product, my expected repair costs are quite low (if it makes it through the first year in good shape). Other people are more concerned about these expected repair costs and for them longer and transferrable warranties are great.  The genesis of my first post was the thought that I don't think many people really thinking through expected repair costs when looking at warranties, as proved by the number of people who buy those Best Buy warranties and those who buy extended warranties for their cars. They seem to only consider possible repair costs. I remember when I bought my Acura several years ago, the salesman tried to sell me a 2-3 year extended warranty for something like $1000. His justification was "imagine if your transmission goes, boom! the warranty pays for itself." I then asked "What is the likelihood of that happening?", his response "Oh, very, very low, these are quality cars." My guess was expected repair costs (for defects covered by the warranty in years 5-8 ), maybe about $1-200 vs $1000 cost for the warranty. This explains why I didn't buy it and why he really wanted me to. . . .

These are just technical points about warranties in general and have nothing specifically to do with ACI. I probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place. Mike, sorry if you thought I was giving you or your products a hard time. It was not indended. Since this is your Circle and my comments really having nothing to do with ACI, if you think anything I have written might be seen as damaging to ACI, I will be happy to edit or remove.

Tim

[Mike Dzurko]

Tim:

NO worries! Happy to have you here for the dialog. Please drop in anytime, on any subject.  

[Craig Chase]

Tim - Both your posts were quite reasonable and more than quite intelligent. No worries there.

In the case of ACI, realistically speaking, the warranty does not do much more than give a customer peace of mind (because of the lack of probability there will be a problem). For some people, that makes ownership more enjoyable, while not adding any real expense to the product itself.

By the way, with our underwriter (aka the insurance company), a 7 year, 120,000 mile warranty on the Acura RL which mimics the factory warranty is about $1100.

Or - If you have a 3 year old MDX 4X4, with 50,000 miles on it, and want another 5 years or 50,000 miles ... you are looking at about $1200.

On either vehicle it is most likely the suspension stuff that will cost you. That, and all the electronic gizmos. The powertrain stuff is fairly rare, but REALLY pricey when it does go.

Less expensive models are less $$$, too.

Mike is right, too - stop in anytime. If it helps, I never thought you were in any way negative...