AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Well Tempered Lab => Topic started by: Ears Deluxe on 21 Aug 2021, 06:52 pm
-
I just got a Well Tempered Classic, and I'm loving the sound I'm getting, but the stylus is skipping on every record I play. The skipping usually starts about eight or nine minutes into a side and sporadically continues to the end, typically two three skips per side.
I checked the level of the paddle in the damping fluid, and it appears to be within the 1 to 2mm depth I see recommended elsewhere. I've tried different antiskating settings, but they don't seem to help. Azimuth is correct and tracking force for the cartridge (a Clearaudio Virtuoso) is right at the recommended 2.2 grams. Any ideas of what might be causing this? This arm has the headshell with two fixed holes, so there's no way to adjust tracking angle. It's the round-motor version with the black platter. The paddle is slightly off center in relation to the cup, being closer to the outer edge of the turntable than to the platter. The paddle is level, or very nearly so, with the azimuth correct at the cartridge.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228614)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228615)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228616)
I'd love to get this problem solved because in every other way, this table is making me very, very happy. Thanks in advance for any tips.
-
Have you checked that the TT is level? You can also adjust the VTA by using a mat. Good luck!
-
How far apart are those two metal posts?
Mine are adjusted so they're closed.
Is your azimuth changing?
-
I had this issue on a VPI am and it turned out the bearings were bad, the thought being here that something is binding. That off center damping cup is a clue.
-
Have you checked that the TT is level? You can also adjust the VTA by using a mat. Good luck!
Thanks. I did check the level, and it's on the money. I also thought maybe it was an issue with the clamp dishing the record when it's clamped down, so I tried playing a record without the clamp, and the problem remains. One thing that's puzzling me is that some records seem to play with on one incident (and sometimes none), while others are horrible--and these are records that are all flat, clean, and free from defects. Weird.
-
How far apart are those two metal posts?
Mine are adjusted so they're closed.
Is your azimuth changing?
I've tried with the metal posts closed, wide open, and partway open, and it doesn't seem to make a difference. But I was thinking that antiskating might be3 involved because when the cartridge skips, it skips forward, toward the label.
The azimuth isn't changing that I can see. I've been checking it between records, and it's staying constant. And when the headshell is parallel to the record surface, the post in the center of the paddle is upright.
-
I had this issue on a VPI am and it turned out the bearings were bad, the thought being here that something is binding. That off center damping cup is a clue.
This is what I'm thinking. It's not clear to me what I would adjust to get that paddle centered in the cup.
-
Mine isn't centered when it's that far over.
Is the ground wire touching the fishing line?
Here's where you can find the owner's manual:
https://www.vinylengine.com/library/well-tempered/classic.shtml
-
Hi,
It’s hard to make out the position on the paddle in relation to the cup in the photos, but it looks like there is enough clearance all the way around and centering is not hypercritical. Is the paddle arm perpendicular to the turntable platter? If not, you need to adjust the cartridge mounting plate. This is attached with a small screw where the plate enters the arm tube. If the paddle arm is tilted, do the following:
1). Adjust the arm using the azimuth knob so the paddle arm is perpendicular to the platter.
2). Loosen the screw holding the cartridge mounting plate so it is parallel to the platter and tighten
At this point you can then use the azimuth knob to set the cartridge to correct azimuth without any tilt of the paddle arm.
But, what type of stylus gauge did you use to measure tracking force? If it is a digital one, I would double check the calibration and/or check it against a mechanical gauge. Many of the digital gauges have had issues with quality control. Your cartridge tracking force may set too low with an incorrect reading. There’s no way a proper cartridge tracking at 2.2 grams would skip with regularity.
If you do need to recenter the fluid cup because the paddle is touching, the cup is held down with a small piece of double-side tape. You will need to gently pry it up with a putty knife so something similar. Go slow. It will pop or peel off.
I would check the tracking force first.
-
In rereading your responses, it seems the paddle and azimuth are not the issue. Removing all any-skating will not cause the cartridge to skip. Unless you do not have enough fluid in the cup. There should be enough fluid so the arm stays centered and there is some amount of dampened resistance when the arm is tilted. Too little fluid could cause a skipping issue. But it looks like your paddle is at least submerged part way. Hard to see.
Again I would check the tracking force to be sure to rule that out.
-
In rereading your responses, it seems the paddle and azimuth are not the issue. Removing all any-skating will not cause the cartridge to skip. Unless you do not have enough fluid in the cup. There should be enough fluid so the arm stays centered and there is some amount of dampened resistance when the arm is tilted. Too little fluid could cause a skipping issue. But it looks like your paddle is at least submerged part way. Hard to see.
Again I would check the tracking force to be sure to rule that out.
Thanks, White Spider. I am in fact using a digital stylus gauge, but I double checked its accuracy with a 5 gram calibration weight, which was spot on. And I've got the paddle submerged to about 2 or 3mm (hard to see how to accurately measure that). The post in the paddle is perpendicular.
An additional clue: I put a mirror on the platter to check azimuth, and when I set the stylus on the mirror surface, it is pulling strongly toward the spindle, which is the same direction as the skipping. It's pulling across the glass at about the same speed I would expect to see it move across the runout groove on a record.I double-checked that the table is level, and it is. I feel pretty confident that this is the source of the skipping. But what is the source of the pulling? I tried all the antiskate adjustment levels while the stylus was on the mirror, and it didn't seem to affect the rate of the pulling. Also, I futzed with the fishing line adjustments just now, and the paddle is now in the center of the cup. Still getting the skipping.
I also think I may know why some records are skipping more or less than others--I'm guessing it has to do with the depth at which the record's grooves were cut.
-
Well it clear you are not a novice at setting up a tonearm and table. So please excuse me if I ask some obvious questions.
1). Is the fluid well setup with 100,000 cSt silicone fluid? It should be very viscous and thick.
2). Is the overhang set correctly for cartridge. Normally this would not create a tracking issue in a tonearm, but since the Well Tempered Arm mounting post is offset from the pivot point of the arm, rotating the entire arm assembly changes the relative angle of the threads to the pivot and with it the anti skate.
The dial for the anti skate should expand to created more of a “twist” to the threads creating more anti skate. Since you changing the position of the dial doesn’t seem to do anything, I think the screws anchoring the threads to the paddle are not at the correct angle relative to the arm.
I think you read through the Official Well Tempered Audio thread on AudioKarma. There is a section about the angle of the screws and holes to the arm.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/the-official-well-tempered-audio-thread.898915/page-23
-
Thanks, Whitespider.
I thought the overhang issue might be related, but I can't figure any way to adjust it. The arm assembly--that is, the post with the dials, the cup, etc.--can't be rotated. Or at least I can't see a way to do it. I loosened the VTA adjustment knob and lifted the entire assembly off of the post it sits on--the one with the the numbers and lines for marking VTA. That post has a rounded groove in it that mates with a bulge in the arm assembly, and the post itself doesn't move. I can't see any set screw or other means of adjusting its position.
And as far as I can see, that means I have no way of changing the overhang. Or am I missing something really obvious (that's usually the case)?
Is it possible that I've got a bad mismatch between cantilever compliance and arm mass? Could that cause this sort of problem? The cartridge's compliance is 15cu and it weighs 6 grams.
-
There should be a 7/16” nylock nut under the turntable that secures the rod that the tonearm slides on. If you loosen this nut you can rotate the arm to change the location of the stylus tip for overhang adjustment.
-
Thanks, Whitespider.
I thought the overhang issue might be related, but I can't figure any way to adjust it. The arm assembly--that is, the post with the dials, the cup, etc.--can't be rotated. Or at least I can't see a way to do it. I loosened the VTA adjustment knob and lifted the entire assembly off of the post it sits on--the one with the the numbers and lines for marking VTA. That post has a rounded groove in it that mates with a bulge in the arm assembly, and the post itself doesn't move. I can't see any set screw or other means of adjusting its position.
And as far as I can see, that means I have no way of changing the overhang. Or am I missing something really obvious (that's usually the case)?
Is it possible that I've got a bad mismatch between cantilever compliance and arm mass? Could that cause this sort of problem? The cartridge's compliance is 15cu and it weighs 6 grams.
Do you have the manual and WT Protractor？
-
Thanks, Whitespider, for the top about the nut underneath. I'll try that tonight.
I've got the manual and a pdf of the protractor, so once I can move the tower, I should be able to dial in overhang and maybe get less skipping (hope springs eternal).
-
There is also a screw under the tonearm to remove head shell to drain sand for a rewire. If that screw has been adjusted it could have thrown off your head shell. I have a WT record player that's been in the closet for a few years so I'm going by memory. Not sure how your arm adjust but same concept I'm guessing.
If you the center the paddle in cup and head shell is tilted it may be the head shell screw. Loosening screw you can rotate headshell be gentle. Could your cartridge be bad? I notice your motor is close to the platter is it touching table or maybe your motor/ belt needs to be pulled outward or replaced and your plater is wobbling. Pivoting arm to set overhang on protractor may help.
-
I adjusted the overhang to the correct distance tonight, and that definitely helped. I'm getting less skipping, but there still is some happening on some records and not at all on others. And on a few records, it's constant and aggressive skipping, always toward the spindle.
I wondered if the cartridge might be problematic, but I wasn't having any issues at all on the Clearaudio table I took it off of a few days ago, so I don't think that's the issue.
-
Unless the cartridge is damaged in someway, I believe you should be able to track a record with the Well Tempered Arm without issue as it has been used by many people with both low mass high compliance and high mass low compliance cartridges successfully. Since you have the paddle 1-2mm below the surface of the silicone fluid that is a good starting place that should allow smooth tracking. It's hard to tell in your photos with certainty, but it looks like your paddle is adjusted too many degrees clockwise relative to the tone arm tube looking from above. Set your cartridge down on the lead in groove and look directly above the gap where the anti skate dial sits. The attachment points of the threads to the paddle should form a straight line that is parallel to the gap and the bars going out from the upright column/bar. I'm guessing your attachment points are forming a line a number of degrees clockwise to this. If it's twisted too far clockwise, you will need to rotate this anti-clockwise so it's closer to being in-line. The paddle is held on by a screw under the paddle on most Well Tempered Arms, but some attachments are different. You may be able to rotate the paddle without loosening any screw or nut depending how tight the connection is. Unfortunately it may get messy trying to rotate this because of the silicone. Ideally this would be adjusted without any fluid. This adjustment is not hyper critical and you can be a few degrees off. The holes in the paddle, which are just inside of where the threads pass through should be approximately 90 degrees to the tonearm tube.
When you raise the tonearm high above the record with finger lift over the lead out area and let the arm drop does the arm drift in or out? With some amount of skating it should drift outward as the arm falls. Twisting the paddle will apply more outward force to the tonearm.
If everything on the arm checks out, the only other thing to check is the platter. The platter is machined with a concave surface so the record will flatten out when the spindle knob is tightened. It's possible the platter was machined with too much of a concave surfaces that is actually causing a severe dip in the surface of the record and the stylus is going downward and later upward as it travels across the record. Using less clamping pressure might help in this case.
-
Thanks, Whitespider. I want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly. When you say "the attachment points of the thread to the paddle," do you mean the screws that the threads are attached to or the small hole through which the thread passes before going up to the antiskate bars and the azimuth knob?
Right now, with the stylus in the lead-in groove, looking down from above (standing behind the turntable), the threads themselves (and the large holes in the paddle) are parallel with the antiskate bars and the gantry arms, and the screws the threads are attached to are at 1:00 and 7:00.
When I let the tonearm fall, it drifts toward the spindle, both when there is minimum antiskating and when a moderate amount of antiskate is applied. It sounds like I might have to get messy and twist the paddle, yes?
-
Hi. I am referring to the holes that the threads pass through. My Well Tempered Arm is an early unit just before the arm went on sale to the public so my findings may be slightly different than the production models. Since my arm was set up by Bill Firebaugh himself I was using it as a general reference. Your Classic was produced much later so the placement of the paddle may be slightly different.
Nevertheless the rotation of this disc will determine the amount of skating that will ultimately be applied. It may need to be twisted more clockwise or counterclockwise depending on the drift. My brain hasn’t jumped started yet. :o
I would recommend looking over the AudioKarma link I sent earlier to read the discussion on the paddle placement. It’s also possible that the threads incorrectly connected to the spread bars of the anti skate assembly and your arm has a slight twist in it.
In any event, I’m sure the paddle location will rectify your lack of skating. You certainly don’t want any drifting of the arm toward the runout grooves like you have on your arm right now. It should either be neutral or a slight drift outward.
Good luck. No doubt you will get excess silicone on your table and cup. Alcohol will clean this up. Because I do repair work on small mechanical items such as optical microscopes I keep a can of Zippo lighter fluid around for quick cleanup of oil and grease and small smearing dabbing with cotton swabs.
-
Well Tempered Classic
Arm at rest
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228870)
Arm on lead in groove
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228871)
Mine slowly drifts outwards if that helps any.
-
I happy to report that I rotated the paddle and John Haitt's Bring the Family, which was completely unplayable before, is now playing through without a hitch (Crazy Little Thing Called Love has me dancing around the room). Before I saw your reply, Whitesnake, I assumed you meant the screws that hold the thread in place should be parallel with the antiskate arms, so I twisted the paddle until I could get at the screw on the bottom. After several attempts, I got it rotated to the point where those screws were in fact parallel with the antiskate bars, and I did it without spilling any goo, which was really amazing given my usual ham-fistedness. I was feeling quite proud of myself and looking forward to perfect playback, when I noticed that when I twisted the paddle to get at the screw, I managed to break the thread that goes to the antiskate wheel--much more like my usual work. So it was off to the sporting goods store to buy fishing line. Arrrgh!
I got the old string off, measured out some new line, with a little extra length for insurance, got my footstool over by the silicone cup, put on two pairs of reading glasses for extra magnification, and got ready for frustration and mess. My big worry was that in twisting the paddle to get at the underside of the tiny thread hole, I would break the other thread--I can't see how to get the azimuth knob off, so that would be a real pain in the neck. But I turned that azimuth knob to put extra slack in that thread, which helped. I made a loop in one end of the new fishing line, looped it around the screw on the paddle, and tightened that down. Then I set about fishing the line through the tiny hole in the bottom of the paddle, which I couldn't see--I could only just get the bottom edge of the paddle to clear the edge of the cup. And, of course, it was coated in silicone goo.
Much to my astonishment, I actually got it on the fourth try. I pulled the line up, attached it to the screw on the antiskate bars, readjusted azimuth and tracking force (I had the weight all the way at the end of the arm so the cartridge end would stay safely up in the air), and put on John Haitt with my fingers crossed. I can't begin to tell you the ecstasy I felt hearing it play all the way through without a hitch. And to hear it play with so much weight, dynamics, and tactile immediacy coming out of an absolutely black background was just incredible. (I've read about this black background for years, but this is first time I really heard what they meant.)
I'm not going to officially declare the problem solved until I play a lot more records, but right now I'm cautiously optimistic that it is, indeed fixed. Thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone, for your help with this. Now to start thinking about other cartridges. . .
-
Hi EarsDeluxe! Nice to hear you have your arm up and running properly. I'm actually quite confident that all is well with your arm now. And a great choice for test record! Bring the Family is one of those magical albums that just came together because it was not overthought. All of the musicians deserve credit for their great playing but John Chelew, the producer, deserves a lot of credit for getting the actual idea of the record together. Play it live.
Two small notes. Have you tried putting a half-twist in the turntable belt? In the photos, it doesn't look like it? The half-twist can help reduce wow and flutter by letting the belt "peel" more smoothly from the pulley. This was found by accident when Bill Firebaugh was measuring the wow and flutter on the turntable. A set of results came back better as a result of an accidental twist in the belt. Doesn't hurt to try.
But I believe this twist of the belt only works with the original style of thin narrow belts that came with the turntable. Most belts that are sold to fit the turntable are too soft and stetchy with results in the wrong turntable speed. The belt sold by LpGear is an excellent substitution to the original belt with the same characteristics. The only negative is the cost which is around $45. I am not associated with LpGear in anyway. But as we all know, the proper belt matters in turntables. And the belt was particular thing that Bill Firebaugh examined when he designed the turntable. The belt was always expensive even when the turntable was new.
Happy listening.
-
Thanks, Whitespider. I agree about Bring the Family--I've long been a fan of everybody in that band, particularly Jim Keltner, whose playing never lines up with standard drum parts and always adds immense color and rhythm to any song. And I think Ry Cooder's solo on Lipstick Sunset is one of the most perfect, beautiful solos every committed to vinyl.
Regarding the belt twist, I did try it when I first got the table, but I managed to do it wrong, and the platter started running backwards! (My wife sometimes lets me go out on my own.) So I left it straight. The guy I bought it from said he had replaced the belt, so I don't know if it's got the same specs as the original. How should the twist be done?
-
If you put the belt on flat and it spins remove it at the point of the motor wheel and flip it or turn it in on itself and put it back on the wheel you should have it twisted once either side of the wheel?
-
As stated in the previous post, just flip the belt over at the pulley. I think you may have misunderstood the idea and ended up putting a loop at the pulley which would caused the turntable platter to spin backward. This photo of my Well Tempered Record Player may help. Also, notice the thickness of the belt. This is how the original belt for the table looks. I have some belts that are both thicke, wider and more rubber-band-like which make the platter spin at the wrong speed running in the 34.xx rpm area. That is well above spec. Unlike the original square base WTT which would allow for adjustment of the belt and possible correction of speed, the later models with the round hole do not allow this.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=228905)
-
You need to get messy, when you drop arm it should not go towards spindle. It's not that bad draining cup if you can remove arm, lock down tonearm and pour it in silicone container. If you have plenty of extra fluid use a q tip and dip in cup and through away fluid/q-tips.
-
Ah! The photo really does help. And yes, I was putting a loop in the belt, which was obviously wrong. My belt looks like yours, Whitesnake.